Gnomes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morquesse · 12-01-2005, 06:06 PM

I had read that Tolkien originally called a group of Elves (the Noldor) "Gnomes". I had wondered about this choice of word for a while, and why Tolkien originally rejected it. Well, I was reading my "annotated Hobbit", when I came across the note on page 94, note 11, about the Tolkien's early usage of the word. He appearently wrote a letter to his publisher that " the word was used as a translation of the real name, accordning to my mythology, of hte High-elven people of the West. Pedantically, associating it with the Greek gnome 'thought, intelligence'. But I have abandoned it, since it is quite impossible to dissociate the name from the popular associations of Paracelsan gnomus=pygmaeus" (letters, no. 239).
I don't understand why Tolkien was concerned with the word Gnomes when the changed Orc to mean a goblin (instead of a dolphin thing), changed the spelling of the plural Elf and Dwarf, and created a different perception of Elves, and all sorts of stuff. I know he was a perfectionist (I suffer from it as well), but he seemed less concerned about the other points I made than of Gnomes.
I am eager to hear your dicussions.
~M

HerenIstarion · 12-02-2005, 02:23 AM

When I hear 'gnome' I have an association (or would have had if not for BoLT books) of a dwarf - i.e., someone less in hight than a human, and bearded, and probably living in a cave or under earth, guarding hidden treasure, not a higher than human, beautiful and unbearded (unless in a third stage, like Cirdan) elf.

(On the other hand, I would have had mental picture of something bug-sized and fly-winged for a word 'elf', if not for Tolkien, but here I stray)

'Orc' (for a dolphin) was an obscure word (per instance, I learned that once it stood for a whale after I learned it stood for a goblin and got the concept rooted in my mind), whilst 'gnome' more widespread. It would have taken more to change mental association for 'gnome' than it took for 'orc', I reckon, so the drop of term was justified. Besides, in later years Tolkien spelled it 'ork', to further distinguish it from a 'whale-word', since it came not from ir, but from Quenya through Sindarin (Quenya 'Orko' (itself variation of 'Rauko' - Demon, i.e., something to be afraid of) became 'Orch' in Sindarin and 'Orc' in Westron, so it must have been a coincidence)

Besides, I have a strong feeling that Gnome (being Greek word) suited Tolkien's palate (even if it was unconscious) less than perfectly English (Germanic, Gothic etc) words like 'elf' and 'dwarf'. Probably, something along 'wizard' (i.e Deep Elves - Knowledgeable Elves - Wise Elves) might have been devised for Noldor, but that what would we have called 'Istari' than?

And finally, neither one of other two High Elven kindreds is tranlsated (unless we count Chapter 8 of the Hobbit and casual remarks here and there), and are usually given as Vanyar and Teleri, so why make an exception for Noldor?

Frodo Baggins · 12-02-2005, 10:13 AM

I read The Book of Lost Tales recently and for one thing, I find Tolkein's earliest writings quite juvenile, especially compared to LoTR and the Sil. It struck me that he kept switching between calling Elves "Elves" and referring to them as "Gnomes" and something else more akin to short curly toe shoed things as Elves. It was like In one chatper you would get the idea "Ah ok the Vanyar Noldo, Solosimpi (So glad that was changed to Teleri, Solosimpi is so sissy sounding)ect. are Elves." In the next chapter you'd be saying "Ok these things are all Gnomes, not Elves". Back and forth "Elves are Gnomes" "Elves are not Gnomes" and so on.

Frankly I am sore pleased Tolkien stopped calling them Gnomes, because in Lost Tales I could not get the idea of stunted, bearded things that live underground and are lawn ornaments out of my head. Actually they are niether, to us they are Elves but to themselves they are Quendi and whatever "tribe" of such they are part of.

Although, if any Elf could be remotely called a gnome in the mainstream sense it would be Eöl.

Legolas · 12-10-2005, 11:57 PM

I think it was to avoid an unnecessary complexity - having to explain that his Gnomes are not traditional gnomes, his Gnomes are Elves, and finally that his Elves are not traditional elves.

12-01-2005, 06:06 PM	#1
Morquesse Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Past the fields we know.... Posts: 202	Gnomes I had read that Tolkien originally called a group of Elves (the Noldor) "Gnomes". I had wondered about this choice of word for a while, and why Tolkien originally rejected it. Well, I was reading my "annotated Hobbit", when I came across the note on page 94, note 11, about the Tolkien's early usage of the word. He appearently wrote a letter to his publisher that " the word was used as a translation of the real name, accordning to my mythology, of hte High-elven people of the West. Pedantically, associating it with the Greek gnome 'thought, intelligence'. But I have abandoned it, since it is quite impossible to dissociate the name from the popular associations of Paracelsan gnomus=pygmaeus" (letters, no. 239). I don't understand why Tolkien was concerned with the word Gnomes when the changed Orc to mean a goblin (instead of a dolphin thing), changed the spelling of the plural Elf and Dwarf, and created a different perception of Elves, and all sorts of stuff. I know he was a perfectionist (I suffer from it as well), but he seemed less concerned about the other points I made than of Gnomes. I am eager to hear your dicussions. ~M __________________ I'm not ashamed to let you know I want this light in me to show. I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.~Newsboys

12-02-2005, 02:23 AM	#2
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,301	When I hear 'gnome' I have an association (or would have had if not for BoLT books) of a dwarf - i.e., someone less in hight than a human, and bearded, and probably living in a cave or under earth, guarding hidden treasure, not a higher than human, beautiful and unbearded (unless in a third stage, like Cirdan) elf. (On the other hand, I would have had mental picture of something bug-sized and fly-winged for a word 'elf', if not for Tolkien, but here I stray) 'Orc' (for a dolphin) was an obscure word (per instance, I learned that once it stood for a whale after I learned it stood for a goblin and got the concept rooted in my mind), whilst 'gnome' more widespread. It would have taken more to change mental association for 'gnome' than it took for 'orc', I reckon, so the drop of term was justified. Besides, in later years Tolkien spelled it 'ork', to further distinguish it from a 'whale-word', since it came not from ir, but from Quenya through Sindarin (Quenya 'Orko' (itself variation of 'Rauko' - Demon, i.e., something to be afraid of) became 'Orch' in Sindarin and 'Orc' in Westron, so it must have been a coincidence) Besides, I have a strong feeling that Gnome (being Greek word) suited Tolkien's palate (even if it was unconscious) less than perfectly English (Germanic, Gothic etc) words like 'elf' and 'dwarf'. Probably, something along 'wizard' (i.e Deep Elves - Knowledgeable Elves - Wise Elves) might have been devised for Noldor, but that what would we have called 'Istari' than? And finally, neither one of other two High Elven kindreds is tranlsated (unless we count Chapter 8 of the Hobbit and casual remarks here and there), and are usually given as Vanyar and Teleri, so why make an exception for Noldor? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

12-02-2005, 10:13 AM	#3
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	I read The Book of Lost Tales recently and for one thing, I find Tolkein's earliest writings quite juvenile, especially compared to LoTR and the Sil. It struck me that he kept switching between calling Elves "Elves" and referring to them as "Gnomes" and something else more akin to short curly toe shoed things as Elves. It was like In one chatper you would get the idea "Ah ok the Vanyar Noldo, Solosimpi (So glad that was changed to Teleri, Solosimpi is so sissy sounding)ect. are Elves." In the next chapter you'd be saying "Ok these things are all Gnomes, not Elves". Back and forth "Elves are Gnomes" "Elves are not Gnomes" and so on. Frankly I am sore pleased Tolkien stopped calling them Gnomes, because in Lost Tales I could not get the idea of stunted, bearded things that live underground and are lawn ornaments out of my head. Actually they are niether, to us they are Elves but to themselves they are Quendi and whatever "tribe" of such they are part of. Although, if any Elf could be remotely called a gnome in the mainstream sense it would be Eöl. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

12-10-2005, 11:57 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	I think it was to avoid an unnecessary complexity - having to explain that his Gnomes are not traditional gnomes, his Gnomes are Elves, and finally that his Elves are not traditional elves. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.