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Old 03-11-2007, 05:28 PM   #161
Lalwendë
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And to follow on from what tgwbs says about how people have struggled to change the morality 'accepted' by society, what about those who go against the grain of a wider society which is, according to them, immoral? What about resistance fighters?

And we also have to think about who sets the moral tone of a society. Is it the majority opinion? Is it done by consensus? Or is it set by Authority? Which Authority?

These are difficult questions which absolutism only prevents us from answering intelligently. All we can do if we are absolutist is run around in circles like dogs chasing our tails.

Personally, I always bear Gandalf's words to Frodo in mind about not being hasty to judge. This is one of the most important things Tolkien tells us.

Maybe those 'moral truths' which we hold most dear are the ones which we ought to question the most? There are things which I strongly believe are wrong, but merely my thinking them to be wrong doesn't achieve anything, it certainly doesn't help me to understand those who take the opposite view. Challenging our own moral assumptions does not mean we will end up with an amoral society as decisions will always be reached on what is best given the circumstances, but it does better equip us to be tolerant and to see situations from all sides. Not doing this leads to conflict. The Cold War was all about this, two 'sides' unable to see life as it was on the opposing side, unable to simply stop and question if they really did have it right, but all too ready to annihilate the world in the pursuit of defending their own moral agendas and 'strongly held beliefs'.
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:54 PM   #162
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And another thing....

Why would anyone side with the 'Bad Guys'? Because of the way they percieve the 'Good Guys'?

I found this essay:Lord of the Rings as a Defence of Western Civilisation:http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:r...ient=firefox-a Which states:
Quote:
So to say that The Lord of the Rings is a defense of Western
civilization is not to say that it is a defense of our civiliza-
tion as it exists. Instead, it has much to tell us about the dis-
repair into which Western civilization has fallen. As Tolkien
would sometimes write, we face “Mordor in our midst.”

Since September 11, it is easier for most of us to believe
that. Lest we have any doubts, we can see the poisonous
fruit produced by the forces of Mordor in the rubble of the
World Trade Center.
Someone from outside the 'Western (Civilised) World' (or even some within it) who first encountered LotR via that essay might have a very different perspective on what the 'Good guys' in the book are up to. Once again, we have to ask how the reader who sides with the 'bad guys' actually percieves the 'good guys'? The 'West' (in particular America according to this writer) is Gondor, Rohan & the Shire & those in opposition to the 'West' is 'Mordor' - & LotR is a 'defence of the West' & its (Right Wing) values according to the writer of this piece.
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:27 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Bęthberry
Note meaning to imply that loyers are baddies, of course.
Of course not. Some of them ... ahem ... us have chosen the light side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
And that's why I say it is extremely rude to place the highly emotive and loaded term 'immoral' on someone for who they like and do not like in a piece of fiction.
I am not talking about making judgments on the basis of which characters people like and dislike, so please do not imply that I am being rude by reference to something that I have not done. Heavens, it is well documented that I am a great fan of Smaug as a character. That does not mean that I think he was right to attack a bunch of innocent people and destroy their homes. My point was referring to those who delight in, sympathise with and support the atrocities committed by the evil characters in LotR. I consider myself perfectly justified to view that as an immoral standpoint, although I would not necessarily judge them as a person by it (or not by that alone, at least). I am merely stating my own personal view in a debate on the issue. Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything that you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Aren't you in effect simply saying 'its not a nice way to think but it makes no practical difference to you or anyone else'?
In a nutshell, yes. To be honest, I see little relevance to my life or anyone else's in this debate, but I am a sucker for pointless debates ...

With one caveat. If a person habitually delighted in, sympathised with and supported the evil acts of fictional characters, I would expect that to be relevant in any psychological assessment of that individual and, were there evidence of such behaviour, it would be relevant in any criminal prosecution of them for any serious crime which they might commit. As I said, such a pattern of behaviour is not illegal, and 9.99 times out of 10 it will not lead to dangerous behaviour. But, were it to do so, it would be considered relevant in assessing their state of mind.

However, I know of no one who approaches fiction in this way, and I believe that there are very few people who do. Indeed, I strongly suspect that the views referred to in the opening post, which kicked of this debate, were not genuinely held but were merely "showing off". So, yes, it is largely irrelevant.

Indeed, the "off topic" elements of this debate, concerning moral relativism and the application of systems of morality and ethics are of far more interest to me, particularly as it is an area in which I work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGWBS
However, you seem to be saying that this does not make that society's morality any less valid as a system and, furthermore, that a society's system of morality should be used to judge the individuals within it.
Not all situations require society's moral judgment. Most of those which do are enacted in law. In many situations that are not, no moral judgment is required at all by society in general (although individuals may take it upon themselves to make such a judgment, and are generally free to do so).

Sometimes, however, moral judgments are required, even where there is no issue of law involved. To take an example with which I am professionally familiar, should a company do business in a country with a poor human rights record? There are arguments both ways. On one side, it might be argued that the company brings employment to people and treats them well as employees (assuming that it does), and also that bringing investment into the country might benefit its people and even, ultimately, lead to a change in the regime or a more enlightened approach. On the other, it might be argued that, in doing so, the company is supporting an appalling regime. Similarly, where mundane bribes are accepted (and legal) in a country, should a company doing business in that country pay those bribes simply in order to be able to compete? In these sorts of situations, people have to make moral judgments, and they will generally apply the moral standards of their home society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGWBS
How can you support temporal, societal-based morality to judge people today, but be against using it historically?
In the same way that I generally support the application of the law as it is now, rather than as it was 20, 100 or 200 years ago. But, as I said, where the moral issue is not enacted in law, and where differing moral standpoints cause no harm to society, I personally see no particular reason to judge, in the sense of condemning, although I may well form a view and feel myself perfectly at liberty to state it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
And to follow on from what tgwbs says about how people have struggled to change the morality 'accepted' by society, what about those who go against the grain of a wider society which is, according to them, immoral? What about resistance fighters?
What about them? They may well have a good cause. As I said, it is perfectly possible to regard a law, or indeed the moral values of a society, as immoral. Of course, they can only reach that stage by making a moral judgment. Having made that judgment, are they justified in using violence to enforce it? Instinctively, I would say no. Yet some who have been hailed as great heroes were once terrorists, carrying out terrorists acts.

To be honest, while this is a fascinating area, and one in which I have a particular interest, it is veering quite seriously off-topic. It is also an area in which there are often no easy answers. So I think that I'd best leave it be for now, much as I would like to continue this discussion.
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:34 PM   #164
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I find that debating the morality of characters in Lord of the Rings is hard to do, since, as a children's story the moral lesson was put in by the author himself. There's a reason why Frodo is endearing and Sauron is a fiery eyeball, and that's because beautiful is good and ugly is bad, end of story. Debate relative morality with a bad guy like Raskolnikov, not Sauron. Lord of the Rings is too Paradise Lost for me to see much ground for realtive morality.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:04 PM   #165
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Culture carrier

It is fascinating to read all this sound and fury in defense of the position that literature, as a sub-created world, cannot be applied to the primary world, but is simply, merely and only a spot of puff, just entertainment, without any other relation to ourselves as human beings and our culture than a smacking good time-eater.

For this is not, for example, how post-colonial writers in Africa regard stories. Take Ngugi wa Thiong'o, for example. He writes movingly of the power of language to define our selves, particularly of his experience as a child in the oral culture of the African language Kikuyu and then in the written culture of his colonial school, where English was imposed and the oralture (oral literature) of Kenya denigrated.

What, according to Thiong'o, was the effect of the nightly stories told in Kikuyu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decolonizing the Mind
We therefore learned to value words for their meanings and nuances. Language was not a mere string of words. It had a suggestive power well beyond the immediate and lexical meaning. Our appreciation of the suggestive magical power of language was reinforced by the games we played with words through riddles, proverbs, transpositions of syllables, or through nonsensical but musically arranged words. So we learned the music of our language on top of the content. The language, through images and symbols, gave us a view of the world, but it had a beauty of its own.
Language is not a non-reactive agent. Again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decolonizing the Mind

Lanuage has a relationship to human experience, human culture, and human perception of reality.
For Thiong'o, the language of Imperialism, English, colonised the minds of the children of Africa, so that it not only devalued their own language and culture, but made language a cerebral activity, rather than "an emotionally felt experience", one divorced from the life which Kenyan children knew.

So, how does this relate to our reading of Tolkien? What do we do when we read him? Is reading him merely a cerebral activity, divorced from our experience in our daily language/s? Or does his language reverberate in our being, so that it mediates our relationships, it provides "image forming agents" in our mind which are part of the community and culture which English informs?

It doesn't follow from this that readers who enjoy orcs and trolls and dragons are immoral. But what does follow is that language does relate powerfully to the Primary world, even language in stories. Heck, even popular culture. How much of our reading of Tolkien influences the world we perceive? How much of Tolkien causes us to see the world in a particular way? Maybe that's what Tolkien does--provides us with a variety of mediations, so that some of us can become elves, some hobbits, some Men, some dragons, trolls, orcs even, or, at the very least, perceive the world as a place of struggle between good and bad agencies.

And it's funny, in a way, that Western culture (aka, some of its proponents here) seems intent to deny this purpose and value of language while writers in other cultures staunchly proclaim the kind of magical power for language which Tolkien himself espoused. Maybe that's what Tolkien does: allows us to perceive the world as elves, as hobbits, as Men, as orcs, trolls, dragons, or, at the very least, to perceive the world as a vast canvas of struggle between good and evil.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:21 AM   #166
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Fascinating thoughts....however, Lal & I are off to Port Patrick in Bonnie Scotland for five days, so we'll have to leave you to sort it out for yourselves..

See yus at the weekend..
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Old 03-12-2007, 03:11 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
No - he can do that. Supposed implies obligation
I see. So I suppose that you consider the idea of moral obligation as absurd - since we established, I hope, that certain imaginary processes are immoral. Are you arguing that one is free to do whatever one wants, imagination included, no matter how strong that contradicts one's own morality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
But they may take it 'seriously' as a work of fantasy with no relation to the real world, so I would still argue that their support of the 'evil' side cannot be used to judge their morality as far as the real world is concerned. Supporting 'evil' characters in a fantasy world so far detached from the everyday world they live in means such conclusions cannot be drawn.
Davem, do you argue that there is any qualitative difference between one's imagination and a book? If certain fantasies are immoral when one engages in them, as we explored previously, then these ideas are immoral too when one recognizes them in a book and adheres to them.
[QUOT=davemE] I cannot declare someone who thinks Orcs slaughtering Elves is cool (however 'seriously' they might take the slaughter) [/QUOTE]You are rather vague about this; what could they consider 'cool' about slaughtering elves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgwbs
In the second quote, you seem to contradict yourself by saying that the "norm" - that is, the majority view
Are you kidding? You take a statement of mine which states one idea, then you take another general affirmation I make, and define its meaning in your own way, [one which contradicts my previous statement and my previous opposition to moral relativism], then you attribute its meaning to me and ask me why I contradict myself? When did I define norm as majority view? Please clarify. I simply view norm as a whatever rule, standard, model; your qualification of it as 'majority's view' in the context of my argument is unwarranted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgwbs
Can't we just accept that if somebody likes orcs, then they are evil according to the 1000th reader, Raynor or Thenamir, and not evil according to Lalwende and Davem?
My argument was that siding with the evil actions of the orcs may contradict one's own morality [if one holds various moral values to be true], regardless what other view as moral or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Let's say someone who fully supports the evil side in LotR is 'immoral'. What should we do about them? Should they be watched? Should they be allowed to adopt children? Can they be trusted not to steal cars, rob houses or mug grannies?
As far as I know, all western societies prohibit any kind of discrimination based on beliefs.
Quote:
It has often been remarked that Middle-earth lacks priests and churches, but interestingly it also lacks police and lawyers--at least until Sharkey gets his hands on The Shire.
The hobbits have the shirrifs; the king was a priest-king in Numenor, and Tolkien speculates in the letters that Aragorn would return to that function.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:19 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
When did I define norm as majority view?
That's what a norm is. Normal. Something widely accepted by most people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
My argument was that siding with the evil actions of the orcs may contradict one's own morality [if one holds various moral values to be true], regardless what other view as moral or not.
Surely there is no argument then? If one holds that it is immoral to side with orcs (as you do), and sides with orcs, then this is immoral to that person. If one holds that siding with orcs is not immoral, and sides with orcs, then this is not immoral to that person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salacia
I find that debating the morality of characters in Lord of the Rings is hard to do, since, as a children's story the moral lesson was put in by the author himself. There's a reason why Frodo is endearing and Sauron is a fiery eyeball, and that's because beautiful is good and ugly is bad, end of story.
Strider looks foul, not to mention Ghan-buri-Ghan!
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:58 AM   #169
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That's what a norm is. Normal. Something widely accepted by most people.
You are correct; my use of the word relied on equating norm with any moral principle; fortunately, a quick look in the dictionary cleared that up. Sorry for the blunder. Glad I learned something new
Quote:
If one holds that it is immoral to side with orcs
That was not my argument. I argued that if one believes that deligthing in evil deeds is immoral, then if siding with the orcs, or 'cheering them' as one debater has put it, means derriving pleasure from their deeds, then this is an immoral instance.
Quote:
Strider looks foul
Hm, when is he described as such?
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:44 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Hm, when is he described as such?
LotR, FotR, Chapter 'Strider':
Quote:
[Frodo:] 'I think one of his [the Enemy's] spies would - well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'
'I see,' laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it?'
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Old 03-12-2007, 07:06 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar
LotR, FotR, Chapter 'Strider':
I was aware of that quote; however, Frodo does not reffer to Strider as looking foul, but strange, and Strider's play of words, esspecially his refference to the password (all that is gold does not glitter), show a discrepancy between his humble looks [with mud on his boots, trave-stained cloack, hood over head] and true majesty. Later on, when he doesn't have to be disguised, his fair looks are evident.
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Old 03-12-2007, 07:25 AM   #172
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Just being covered by mud and dirt does not make him foul. He's dirty because he's a traveler, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage. But, he's also in a serious relationship with the most beautiful elf since Luthien. He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:33 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Salacia Deloresista
, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage.
I think that that is a concept only of the films ... in the book he may not flaunt his status amongst the people of Bree who have no appreciation of the Rangers (until they go), but he is not in denial..... otherwise he would hardly lug the broken sword around with him at all times in a somewhat impractical fashion
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:14 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Raynor
That was not my argument. I argued that if one believes that deligthing in evil deeds is immoral, then if siding with the orcs, or 'cheering them' as one debater has put it, means derriving pleasure from their deeds, then this is an immoral instance.
Hmm. I think the real problem here is the word evil, which I have conveniently emboldened. What constitutes an "evil act" is very difficult to decide, as the adjective "evil" can be applied to more or less any act or thought.

I suppose you are right in that, if "support of antagonists," "support of those who deny the existence of a Higher Power," "support of quarrelsome beings" or support of some other characteristic of orcs is defined as an "evil act," then supporting an orc is indeed immoral.

Which means more or less that, if you define evil as support of orcs, then supporting orcs is immoral!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salacia
He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.
I suppose so. But to take the opposite argument, Sauron, for example, was meant to take a fair form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
The intent of 99.999% of pornography in the movie is clear; they want to promote pornography, it is an end, not a means to an end.
I just found this and, although it's not relevant, I thought I'd mention that the Catalonian government is offering grants to local pornographers to create pornography in the Catalan language to "promote Catalan in every medium." This made me laugh.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:21 AM   #175
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I suppose you are right in that, if "support of antagonists," "support of those who deny the existence of a Higher Power," "support of quarrelsome beings" or support of some other characteristic of orcs is defined as an "evil act," then supporting an orc is indeed immoral.
No, I was thinking of plunder, rape, torture, unnecessary killings.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:34 AM   #176
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No, I was thinking of plunder, rape, torture, unnecessary killings.
Hmm, I see. If you think the above is evil, then supporting orcs is immoral.

I don't think orc-rape is mentioned anywhere (though Celegorm tried to force Luthien to be his wife). The Elves also seem susceptible to unnecessary killings - the Kinslayings, for example. The Elves like to plunder - the Noldo rebellion was partly out of yearning for new kingdoms, not to mention the lust for silmarils and other precious things. So I suppose we should also oppose the Noldor.

You've got me on torture though! Interesting that this seems to be something that fallen Elves do not partake in, though they're all too happy to murder. I wonder if that means anything.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:58 AM   #177
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If you think the above is evil, then supporting orcs is immoral.
I was only interested in this argument about the case when supporting evil characters is related to delighting in these evil acts.
Quote:
I don't think orc-rape is mentioned anywhere
I am not specifically interested in orcs, although Tolkien reffers to orcs raping in the Lay of Luthien (although some may equate that with plunder). More to the point, Tolkien speculated Melkor forced humans to mate with animals.
Quote:
The Elves also seem susceptible to unnecessary killings - the Kinslayings, for example.
I don't think we can extend that to the "elves". We don't know who started the actual fighting, and it was all down to Feanor, who drove his men on. Anyway, I was thinking of killing for the sake of killing when I said "unnecessary".

Faramir describes the rohirrim as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Window on the West, TTT
For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end
however, I am not aware that the rohirrim or the gondorians went out to kill just for the sake of it. But if they did, the same standard I have been arguing throughout this thread would apply to them too.
Quote:
The Elves like to plunder - the Noldo rebellion was partly out of yearning for new kingdoms, not to mention the lust for silmarils and other precious things.
The elves love to plunder? How so? Yearning for new kingdoms does not amount to that. I am not aware that they took any land by force from anyone, or that they dispossesed. Also the silmarils were theoretically theirs. As for other things, I don't know what you mean.
Quote:
Interesting that this seems to be something that fallen Elves do not partake in, though they're all too happy to murder.
All too happy to murder? Where is this particular trait described? If anything, at least their healers avoid this, since it reduces their abilities.
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Old 03-13-2007, 06:48 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Raynor
I am not aware that they took any land by force from anyone
Even though there where no established kingdom I belive that they took the land of the petty-dwarves and killed where they found them, but my memorie can be failing me.

Of course elves are not portraied as evil as the orcs, but they too seem to be intolerant of other races and sometimes other elves.

I actually don't see the orcs as pure evil, maybe because I don't belive in any such thing, but especially the conversation between Shagrat and Grishnákh convinces me that the orcs have other longings than just slaying. Maybe I mis-read the conversation (very likely), but they don't seem to be all that keen on war.
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Old 03-13-2007, 08:34 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by the guy who be short
But to take the opposite argument, Sauron, for example, was meant to take a fair form.
Sauron was originally beautiful, but when he fell, he was corrupted in body and spirit. It's a very Paradise Lost moment, actually. Satan was beautiful, too, when he was an angel.
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:00 AM   #180
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Even though there where no established kingdom I belive that they took the land of the petty-dwarves and killed where they found them, but my memorie can be failing me.
For all intents and purposes, the petty dwarves appeared to the elves as beasts who attacked them. They stopped as soon as they recognized they were sentient beings - that is, after meeting the 'greater' dwarves I am looking foward to anyone putting any argument that someone could have behaved better than the elves.
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Of course elves are not portraied as evil as the orcs, but they too seem to be intolerant of other races and sometimes other elves.
To what cases of intolerance are you reffering?
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:28 AM   #181
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For all intents and purposes, the petty dwarves appeared to the elves as beasts who attacked them. They stopped as soon as they recognized they were sentient beings - that is, after meeting the 'greater' dwarves I am looking foward to anyone putting any argument that someone could have behaved better than the elves.
That is just silly as you ask people argue something that no one could actually know. . .We can only look at what the elves did and draw conclutions from that, well I guess we could do some speculation, but that is likely to be on very thin grounds. Just like I could not know if France would have done better than the US as the worlds only super-power. . .they would be in a completely different situation and therefore they would probably act differently.

What is interesting is that people seem to classify evil and good when clearly there is no true good beings. . .

You say that the elves only killed the petty-dwarves because they where beasts. .. Does that mean that you think ignorance is a good excuse for doing immoral things? If so I belive that most of the evil deeds of men could be excused.

I actually do not think it matters one bit wether someone could have acted better than the elves, at least not when you talk morality and such. One should be judged by ones own actions and not the ones of others.

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To what cases of intolerance are you reffering?
If you will not accept "the creatures of Morgoth" as an answer then what about towards dwarves. . .I do realise that this was mutual and due the whole war buisness.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:20 AM   #182
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Does that mean that you think ignorance is a good excuse for doing immoral things?
No, but at least spiritually, intention counts. And in this context the elves too were victimes, when they were ambushed by night and the likes.
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I actually do not think it matters one bit wether someone could have acted better than the elves, at least not when you talk morality and such. One should be judged by ones own actions and not the ones of others.
I fail to see the relevance of a morality standard that no one could ever achieve. Tolkien too rejected criticism of Frodo, that he could have done better, saying such a thing could have happened only in stories unconcorned with "real moral and mental probability". I hold that the same applies here.
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then what about towards dwarves. . .I do realise that this was mutual and due the whole war buisness.
Can you be more specific about this particular intolerance?
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:10 AM   #183
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Forgive me for only skimming through this thread (at least I don't have my old signature up anymore). Some points I wanted to remark upon...

I think Lal speaks quite well for me, the bad guys are just far more fascinating. Saruman is the 2nd most fascinating character in Lord of the Rings to me...can anyone guess the first? (And no it's not Gothmog )

As a huge Sean Bean fanguy; he remarks that the good roles get a little boring and he prefers to play the rough 'n tough, conflicted, or downright evil character. As he said about his concerned father role in Silent Hill...it just got too boring and he loves playing characters with far more depth and even a touch of 'evil.'

I'd also like to point out, what Tolkien does excel at is not really defining good and evil as this black and white concept (all these good guys over here are pure, righteous and good...and they're facing all these dirty, rotten, evil people)....but there are 'areas of gray:'

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Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right…In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only ‘hallows’ were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs.~Letter dated 25 September 1954
There are a few characters that I would say are nearly and completely evil (afterall Tolkien does say Sauron and Morgoth were in 'absolute satanic rebellion'). But, I don't think the 'nature of evil' is so rigid...at least Tolkien felt like he didn't make it so easily defined as 'good vs. evil.'

I've never really been happy with the summary of the Lord of the Rings as a battle of 'good vs. evil' I mean sure there are good characters and there are bad...however good and evil exist on both sides. As Tolkien remarks about WW2:
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For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed.But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn men and elves into Orcs. Not that in real life things are so clear cut as in a story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side...~Letter 66
Let's say if we look at the 'good' side in The Lord of the Rings...Denethor comes to mind as one that's a bit confused about good and evil. Sure he is completely and fully against Sauron...but that does not make him a 'good person.' Denethor was a capable and strong ruler; however he was filled with pride and despair...as Tolkien puts it he became 'corrupted by politics,' he became obsessed with his power as Steward and if he had still lived after the War of the Ring he would have 'ruled as a tyrant.' No one believes a Tyrant is good do they?

On the 'evil' side, we have some examples...Grima, Saruman, and Gollum. All of these characters are fighting against the destruction of the Ring and the 'free peoples' yet they are not on Sauron's side. They have their own objectives or were just led astray and decieved. How about the Haradrim warriors through Sam's point of view:
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It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace - all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.~Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
What it all comes down to when the boundaries between good and evil are not so rigid...there is a lot of 'jumbled' and 'gray' areas; I think we see that others (certainly myself) pity people on the 'evil side' (Gollum and Grima)...or find them fascinating as characters (like Saruman). Then we look at the 'good side' and see characters that have become corrupted and controlling (Denethor) or who are struggling with good and evil (Boromir). Boromir wants to do the right thing, he wants to be 'noble' and 'honourable' but he doesn't always succeed (and that being due to the pull of the Ring and Boromir's attraction to it).
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:55 AM   #184
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I, like Boromir have only skimmed through this thread. (I hate joining these kind of things late- there's so much to catch up on.)

Anyways, I saw the thread and I had to reply. Mostly becausae I find myself holding to different veiwpoints over what appears to be two different topics. The questions as I see them are in two sets.

The questions specific to this topic:

1) Why do some people prefer "bad" characters over "good" characters?

2) Does doing so make said people morally wrong, bad, corrupt, etc?

And the more broad questions that have arisen as a result:
3) Is the morality of literature seperate from the morality of reality?

4) Can morality be relative based on culture or at all?

At least, this is what I have percieved to be the main questions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

So then,

1) Because as many have said, the bad guys are more interesting, more cool, more defined, in many circumstances. Because the good guys can be annoying. For example- I greatly dislike the Elves. I find them arrogant, and going back through Tolkien's history, they are responsible in a big way for the events surrounding the One Ring and Sauron's rise to power. And yet they still find time to look down on Men, who have done pretty much nothing but save their pretty little butts everytime they cause trouble. *grumble grumble*

On the other hand, my favorite character is Sam. One of my friends is a fan of Smeagol, and thinks Sam is "too noble, too dull, too bland," etc. She likes Smeagol becuase he's interesting- he shows conflict and uncertainty, whereas Sam never waivers.

And yet, we both are die hard fans of Darth Vader. (Not Anakin, from the new movies. Vader, the original.) It's difficult to find a more black and white universe than that of Star Wars. It's Light vs Dark. And yet, fans of the movies and books alike are found in equal numbers on both sides.

My point is that different people find different things appealing. Some think bad guys are "cool" (like Vader), some think that they aren't. Some people like the ideals the the good guys up-hold, some think the good guys are a bunch of self-righteous, arrogant, legalistic morons (like the Jedi counsel). Explaining why each individual likes what they like is something only they can do, and sometimes it just boils down to, "I just do."


2)It really depends. Is this the person who laughs when the main bad guy pushes an old woman down the stairs? Or do they just find the bad guys more appealing, in an almost asthetically way? If it's the latter, I fail to see how it makes them immoral. I may disagree with my friend's view points about Smeagol, but I would have a hard time saying that she's a bad person for it. If, however, she thought everything Morgoth and Sauron did was right, funny, or generally appealing, she probably wouldn't be the kind of person I would be friends with.

It takes more than an unpopular opinion to make someone morally bad. It takes an entire personality built on the enjoyment of others' suffering. And, without knowing more about someone than thier opinion, I would abstain from making such a judgement.


3)Yes, and no. Everything we read, see and experience shapes our world view, whether we agree with it or disagree. Further more, the media and literature that is popular says a great deal about our current culture. In that sense, the two are not seperate. However, saying that a single work of fiction is equivalent is ludicrous. LOTR, no matter how insightful and well written and popular, does not define morality for the real world. While many religious themes are found through out it, it sets up its own morality. Tolkien may have had a message in it- that's been debated on end elsewhere- but it would be difficult to say that said message was about right and wrong, or something else entirely.


4) Oooh, the big one. I for one, have never believed that morality is relative. After all, we all agree that murder and genocide, whatever the culture, is wrong. We all agree that the mutilation and castration of women, though consider acceptable and even morally right by some cultures, is wrong. I do, however, believe that there is a difference between what is culturally accepted, or even legally defined, and what is morally right and wrong. It is arrogant to think that a custom of a culture is the only right way to do something. Unfortunately, all cultures think this way. In fact, something as siginificant as every single culture ever documented having the same view regarding anything is considered a phenomenon in Anthropology. It's called Ethno-centricity.

But, again there is a difference between the culturally acceptable, and morality. You can't excuse every misdeed as "coming from a different culture." Somethings are right, and somethings are wrong, no matter who you are or where you come from.

Maybe the Orcs viewed the Elves as evil oppressors, but they destroyed countless lives in the fight against them. They stole from each other, betrayed each other, burned and pillaged, and sought to destroy everything that was ever built.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:08 AM   #185
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I find them arrogant, and going back through Tolkien's history, they are responsible in a big way for the events surrounding the One Ring and Sauron's rise to power. And yet they still find time to look down on Men, who have done pretty much nothing but save their pretty little butts everytime they cause trouble.
The elves contained Melkor in northern Middle Earth, preventing/limiting his nihilistic frenzy. They were also instrumental in defeating Sauron at the end of the first age; that some of them were deceived by Sauron doesn't amount to a group blame. Also, the little men saving their behinds were not so innocent when they attacked Valinor, or when they served Sauron or Melkor throughout the centuries.
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While many religious themes are found through out it, it sets up its own morality.
I have asked this before: what general moral principles from LotR could not be applied in real world - or, at least, are not suited to you?
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:19 AM   #186
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The elves contained Melkor in northern Middle Earth, preventing/limiting his nihilistic frenzy. They were also instrumental in defeating Sauron at the end of the first age; that some of them were deceived by Sauron doesn't amount to a group blame. Also, the little men saving their behinds were not so innocent when they attacked Valinor, or when they served Sauron or Melkor throughout the centuries.
As not all elves are responsible for what happened, niether did all Men serve darkness. And Melkor did not need containment in Middle Earth- he fled from the Valar after stealing the Silmarils (made by an elf) to increase his power. It had already been shown that he could not defeat the Valar. As for the defeat of Sauron and Morgoth, Men were just as instrumental. Not mention, there would have never been a problem with the Ring if the Elves hadn't shown him how to do it. And it wasn't just a few Elves that were fooled into trusting him. Celeborn was one of the few who didn't.

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I have asked this before: what general moral principles from LotR could not be applied in real world - or, at least, are not suited to you?
Personally, none. I'm Christian (not Catholic) and I find the morals principals quite well suited to me. However, it does not make the LOTR a moral authority. (It's not the Bible or any other religious scripture, for heaven's sake.) The presence of religious themes has been debated upon elsewhere, and it's not what this topic is about.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:20 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Roa
After all, we all agree that murder and genocide, whatever the culture, is wrong.
Murder is allowed in some cultures in certain circumstances. The USA is one of them - Americans seem content to murder their (often mentally ill) criminals.

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We all agree that the mutilation and castration of women, though consider acceptable and even morally right by some cultures, is wrong.
1) That's a contradiction of terms. If it's seen as morally right by some cultures, it cannot be universally agreed that it is evil.

2) How exactly are women castrated?


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I don't think we can extend that to the "elves". We don't know who started the actual fighting, and it was all down to Feanor, who drove his men on. Anyway, I was thinking of killing for the sake of killing when I said "unnecessary".
The Noldor started the fighting in the first kinslaying by trying to steal ships. The other two kinslayings were silmaril-related, I believe. None of the kinslayings were necessary.

Is there any account of orcs killing just for the sake of killing? They always seem to justify it somehow in my experience.

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As for other things, I don't know what you mean.
That Dwarven Necklace, the name of which I've forgotten...

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All too happy to murder?
One example is Celegorm attempting to murder Beren by shooting him when his back was turned. The Elves of Nargothrond also shot anybody - Elf or Man - who approached their gates. That seems pretty inexcusable.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:29 AM   #188
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Murder is allowed in some cultures in certain circumstances. The USA is one of them - Americans seem content to murder their (often mentally ill) criminals.
Firstly, we could debate on end as to wether or not the death penalty is murder, just as we could argue on end wether or not abortion is murder, and it would get us no where. Let's not turn this into that sort of debate.

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1) That's a contradiction of terms. If it's seen as morally right by some cultures, it cannot be universally agreed that it is evil.
Fair enough, but my point was that cultural rights and wrongs are not always equivalent to moral rights and wrongs.

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2) How exactly are women castrated?
The clitoris is sawed off with a knife when the girl reaches puberty. This was also practiced for some time in western culture, until women's rights came into play.

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Is there any account of orcs killing just for the sake of killing? They always seem to justify it somehow in my experience.
"It's fun," doesn't count as a justification, and really, what justification did they use that didn't boil down to that, in the end? Not to mention, justification in one's own mind does not make it right. An abusive parent usually justifies beating their child, but that doesn't make it right.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:52 AM   #189
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The Noldor started the fighting in the first kinslaying by trying to steal ships.
We don't know who first drew swords.
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The other two kinslayings were silmaril-related, I believe.
...
One example is Celegorm attempting to murder Beren by shooting him when his back was turned.
8 Noldor, driven by an oath that "none shall break and none should take" don't define an entire race.
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They always seem to justify it somehow in my experience.
Melkor's sole purpose in using the orcs, as stated in Myths Transformed, is the elimination of elves and men. I certainly doubt you consider some other reasons, such as plunder, as a justification.
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That Dwarven Necklace, the name of which I've forgotten.
The Nauglamir was made after the noldor reached Middle Earth. If it carried any corruption for an elf (Thingol), it was after it held the silmaril.
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The Elves of Nargothrond also shot anybody - Elf or Man - who approached their gates.
In what instances did they shoot? Celegorm and Curufin and their people found haven there, so did Orodreth.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:26 PM   #190
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what instances did they shoot? Celegorm and Curufin and their people found haven there, so did Orodreth.
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So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Turin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.
'With venomed dart, they pursued all strangers' I feel they shot quite a lot of people.

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We don't know who first drew swords.
Swords were drawn after the Teleri chucked the Noldor in the sea so I guess it was the Noldor who drew the swords first. Also isn't it claimed that the Teleri only had slender Elven bows to defend themselves with.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:39 PM   #191
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I feel they shot quite a lot of people.
But this hardly defines the elves in general. The elves of Nargothrond were twice marred, by the words of Feanor's son, and by the very curse of Mandos. I imagine they were also in a constant 'martial law' for quite some time.
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Swords were drawn after the Teleri chucked the Noldor in the sea so I guess it was the Noldor who drew the swords first.
Maybe.
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Also isn't it claimed that the Teleri only had slender Elven bows to defend themselves with.
Most of them, not all.
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