Who are the 'wild men'? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Axbolt · 11-23-2015, 06:16 AM

In the LOTR move when the wild men swear allegiance to Saruman, he says that Rohan stole the land from them. I was there any truith in that or was it just one of Sarumans lies?

Zigûr · 11-23-2015, 07:27 AM

I suppose it's not really explained in the films, is it?

In the books, the 'wild men' who serve Saruman are the Dunlendings, Men who inhabited Dunland, the region to the North of Rohan. They did live in "Rohan", or Calenardhon as it was then known, before the Éothéod (as the Men of Rohan were then known) came, but they effectively seem to have lived there as "squatters": although the Men of Gondor didn't really live there, Calenardhon/Rohan was technically the property of the Kingdom of Gondor and the wild men seem to have lived there without any real permission.

At the end of the war against the Balcoth (a group of Easterlings), the Éothéod were given Calenardhon/Rohan by Cirion, Steward of Gondor, in return for their aid, and they founded the Riddermark there, which is to say the Kingdom of Rohan. As such they drove the wild men back to Dunland. Over the history of Rohan there were a number of feuds between the Dunlendings and the Men of Rohan as a result, even before the Dunlendings started working for Saruman.

In that sense it might be argued that the Men of Rohan did "steal" the land from the Dunlendings, but given that it wasn't really their property in the first place they didn't have a very legitimate claim. That being said, it might arguably be the fault of Cirion for giving away territory that Gondor had long ceased to look after and had rather naturally become occupied by other people! Or perhaps the fault of Gondor's rulership in general for clinging onto the vestiges of an empire long after they had ceased being able to or interested in wielding any authority over it.

Axbolt · 11-23-2015, 08:54 AM

So it wasn't exactly a lie, but Saruman definitely twisted the truth, thanks very much

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-23-2015, 05:20 PM

Well, we have to distinguish between a) the Dunlendings, one population of the widespread "indigenous" race of Eriador which also included the Dead Men of Dunharrow and the Men of Bree, and b) the people Tolkien calls wild men, the Wild Men of Druadan Forest, Ghan-buri-ghan and his folk, who were truly "wild men of the woods," stone age primitives. Their remote kinship was to the Drugs of the First Age (hence Dru-adan). These the Rohirrim apparently didn't recognize as human, and had at times hunted them for sport.

Zigûr · 11-23-2015, 11:53 PM

The ones that appear in the film are meant to be the Dunlendings, wouldn't you say?

Oddly enough when I think about it, they don't seem to appear outside of agreeing to serve Saruman apart from perhaps a couple of scenes of raiding in Rohan.

One thing I've always liked about the book depiction of Saruman's armies is the seemingly rather eclectic nature of his forces: Dunlendings, Uruk-hai, lesser Orcs, and wherever the "Half-orcs" existed in that scheme. "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" in Unfinished Tales gives a particularly good sense of that, I think.

Faramir Jones · 11-24-2015, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axbolt

So it wasn't exactly a lie, but Saruman definitely twisted the truth, thanks very much

I think that the most convincing lies have an element of truth, worked on by the person making the lie, as Saruman did in this case.

Morthoron · 11-24-2015, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I think that the most convincing lies have an element of truth, worked on by the person making the lie, as Saruman did in this case.

I don't think it was a lie, per se. In practice, the Dunlendings did feel aggrieved by an age-old land squabble (and we certainly can put that sort of disagreement in a real and very modern historic sense). I think it was exactly what they wanted to hear, given impetus and gravity by Saruman's gift of gab.

Inziladun · 11-24-2015, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I don't think it was a lie, per se. In practice, the Dunlendings did feel aggrieved by an age-old land squabble (and we certainly can put that sort of disagreement in a real and very modern historic sense). I think it was exactly what they wanted to hear, given impetus and gravity by Saruman's gift of gab.

Knowing a king of Rohan once insulted one of their kin and punched him to death probably helped as well.

11-23-2015, 06:16 AM	#1
Axbolt Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Mt Gundabad Posts: 23	Who are the 'wild men'? In the LOTR move when the wild men swear allegiance to Saruman, he says that Rohan stole the land from them. I was there any truith in that or was it just one of Sarumans lies? __________________ Orc of Mt Gundabad

11-23-2015, 07:27 AM	#2
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	I suppose it's not really explained in the films, is it? In the books, the 'wild men' who serve Saruman are the Dunlendings, Men who inhabited Dunland, the region to the North of Rohan. They did live in "Rohan", or Calenardhon as it was then known, before the Éothéod (as the Men of Rohan were then known) came, but they effectively seem to have lived there as "squatters": although the Men of Gondor didn't really live there, Calenardhon/Rohan was technically the property of the Kingdom of Gondor and the wild men seem to have lived there without any real permission. At the end of the war against the Balcoth (a group of Easterlings), the Éothéod were given Calenardhon/Rohan by Cirion, Steward of Gondor, in return for their aid, and they founded the Riddermark there, which is to say the Kingdom of Rohan. As such they drove the wild men back to Dunland. Over the history of Rohan there were a number of feuds between the Dunlendings and the Men of Rohan as a result, even before the Dunlendings started working for Saruman. In that sense it might be argued that the Men of Rohan did "steal" the land from the Dunlendings, but given that it wasn't really their property in the first place they didn't have a very legitimate claim. That being said, it might arguably be the fault of Cirion for giving away territory that Gondor had long ceased to look after and had rather naturally become occupied by other people! Or perhaps the fault of Gondor's rulership in general for clinging onto the vestiges of an empire long after they had ceased being able to or interested in wielding any authority over it. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.

11-23-2015, 08:54 AM	#3
Axbolt Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Mt Gundabad Posts: 23	So it wasn't exactly a lie, but Saruman definitely twisted the truth, thanks very much __________________ Orc of Mt Gundabad

11-23-2015, 05:20 PM	#4
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,301	Well, we have to distinguish between a) the Dunlendings, one population of the widespread "indigenous" race of Eriador which also included the Dead Men of Dunharrow and the Men of Bree, and b) the people Tolkien calls wild men, the Wild Men of Druadan Forest, Ghan-buri-ghan and his folk, who were truly "wild men of the woods," stone age primitives. Their remote kinship was to the Drugs of the First Age (hence Dru-adan). These the Rohirrim apparently didn't recognize as human, and had at times hunted them for sport. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

11-23-2015, 11:53 PM	#5
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	The ones that appear in the film are meant to be the Dunlendings, wouldn't you say? Oddly enough when I think about it, they don't seem to appear outside of agreeing to serve Saruman apart from perhaps a couple of scenes of raiding in Rohan. One thing I've always liked about the book depiction of Saruman's armies is the seemingly rather eclectic nature of his forces: Dunlendings, Uruk-hai, lesser Orcs, and wherever the "Half-orcs" existed in that scheme. "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" in Unfinished Tales gives a particularly good sense of that, I think. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.