LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 07 - Helm's Deep

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Rohirrim and the four remaining Fellowship members leave Edoras with a growing feeling of doom - darkness and heavy air reflect the near-hopeless situation. Yet the presence of two persons gives hope - Théoden and Gandalf - and dawn is said to bring hope.

The Battle of Helm's Deep only takes up a few pages in the book, though the account is packed full of dramatic action. There is a brief break for a parley scene with Aragorn, then the fighting continues. Finally dawn brings the rescue - Erkenbrand, Gandalf, and the trees.

How important is this chapter to you? Which characters and storylines do you like best? Do you appreciate the battle scenes?

[Mister Underhill]

This thread is now open for business.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just going to jump in here before even reviewing the chapter carefully and fully to say that I love the Battle of Helms Deep. Esty is quite right in pointing out how brief the battle is -- every time I read the book I am struck by how little 'space' the battle is afforded in the narrative, despite its immense importance to the story.

The one thing about this chapter that's always bothered me is, I must admit, the head count (heh heh) kept by Gimli and Legolas in their competition. There's two things about it: first, it seems a bit blood thirsty of them to be competing at all; second, I've never fought in a medieval campaign, but I have fought with a sword (you know, tournaments, with safety equipment and everything) and there is just no way that one fighter can be so overwhelmingly good that he can wipe out that many opponents. And certainly not two: either the orcs are incompetent or Gimli and Legolas are getting a bit of 'help' from the author.

I only mention this as it is one of the only points in the book where the enchantment fails for me. But more of substance when I have reviewed the chapter.

[Neithan]

I liked the head count. Tolkien often has his heroes slay unrealistic numbers of enemies (Hurin slew something like 70 Trolls in one part of a battle). My favourite characters are always the insanely great ones, I have never been a fan of "realistic" characters that "the reader can relate to". Something that can cause somewhat of a problem in my fiction writing class where the Professor wants you to do it a certain way, the way that modern writers agree is the "right" way.

[Lathriel]

I have just finished re-reading the Two Towers and I was thinking of the movie so when I read the chapter Helm's Deep I was once again surprised at how short the battle is. (Especially compared to the movie)
I was reading at a fast pace and suddenly there was the end of the chapter!!!
In this chapter you can see that the old myths and legends inspired Tolkien. In those myths the main heroes would always kill an improbable number of enemies which is exactly what Gimli and Legolas do. However I like their game because it gives the reader heart. At the beginning of the battle you are thinking, oh no how are they ever going to win this? However, because of the game you begin to forget about the hoplelessness of the battle.
But my favourite moment is when the horn is blown and Theoden rides forth with Aragorn, now if you want heroics,you got it. Then suddenly Erkenbrand comes as well and that is like the cherry that is put on top of the whipped cream and ice cream.

[Aiwendil]

This chapter serves as something of a climax for book III. It's interesting to compare this with the climaxes of books I and II, each of which occurs in the final chapter of its respective book. This climax is greater, though, than either Frodo's escape from the Nazgul at the fords or the breaking of the Fellowship, and this may account for the extra space given to the denouement.

As Estelyn and Fordim have both noted, the battle itself is rather short - about 9 pages in my edition, with 16 total in the chapter. This is a beautiful illustration of the principle that, for maximal impact, it is the build-up to an important event that must be emphasized, not the event itself. We have been slowly building up to this climax more or less since we first encountered the Rohirrim in III-2, and more rapidly building up to it since the previous chapter. This is the same thing that was done in II-5, where the actual appearance of the Balrog takes up very little space, but the whole chapter builds toward it. Perhaps the prime example of this technique is still to come - in "The Siege of Gondor".

This is one of two major battle scenes in the novel (the other being the Battle of the Pelennor Fields), and, to my taste, this is the better written. I think that action scenes, and particularly battle scenes, in both books and movies, are harder to do than is generally thought. How can an author convey an event of such scope? And how can it be made interesting? For combat alone is not interesting; in fact, it can easily become very dull and tedious. I think that Tolkien found perfect answers to those questions in this chapter. The way to convey a battle is to give it a plot. It is not really a single piece of action. It is rather a series of dramatic events linked together. The narrative of the battle must have an overall shape, just as any narrative must, with its high points and low points, its moments of suspense and moments of surprise, and, most of all, the same forward momentum that a large-scale plot has. That is what Tolkien does here. We have first the arrival at Helm's Deep and the preparation; then the rearguard is driven in from the Dike; then the host of the enemy approaches and sends arrows over the walls; then Aragorn, Eomer, and Gimli make their sortie; twice then the enemy creeps into the culvert, the second time using Saruman's blasting powder; etc. Where someone with less talent would simply write a battle scene, Tolkien provides a series of events linked into a battle story.

About the game between Legolas and Gimli. Fordim makes two points, the second of which I'll consider first:

I've never fought in a medieval campaign, but I have fought with a sword (you know, tournaments, with safety equipment and everything) and there is just no way that one fighter can be so overwhelmingly good that he can wipe out that many opponents. And certainly not two: either the orcs are incompetent or Gimli and Legolas are getting a bit of 'help' from the author.

I think there may be a kind of tension in LotR between two impulses, the realistic and the mythological. Middle-earth is so believable, so internally consistent and thoroughly described, that it feels "realistic". In a way then it seems quite fair to complain when characters perform feats that are blatantly unrealistic - like killing forty-two Orcs. But Middle-earth is mythological as well. As Neithan points out, Hurin is said (in the '77 Silmarillion) to have killed seventy trolls at the Nirnaeth. Now, it is not clear whether or not this actually derives from Tolkien (if it does, it must come from a Narn text that CRT does not give in full). But the motif, if not the exact number and description, certainly come from Tolkien - in GA Hurin kills a hundred Orcs. This is quite in the heroic tradition - the Iliad, for example, ascribes deeds of impossible valour to its heroes.

As for Fordim's first complaint:

it seems a bit blood thirsty of them to be competing at all

I would say yes, it does come across as grim and bloodthirsty (though also slightly humorous). I don't see that as a problem. War is grim and bloody, and those that fight in it must deal with that in some way. In real life, fighter pilots, for example, do count their kills. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some World War I antecedents for such grim joviality.

[Essex]

Sorry, I don't spend any time on this chapter by chapter boards. I couldn't devote time to reading the book again when we started this off last year. pity really. Once I finish my new Adrian Mole book (best set of books I've ever read other than LOTR) I'll try to devote time to reading LOTR yet again. these threads give as good a reason to do it than anything else.

Anyway to my point.

Originally Posted by Lathriel

But my favourite moment is when the horn is blown and Theoden rides forth with Aragorn, now if you want heroics,you got it.

This is one of the key moments to me from the book regarding Aragorn's character. Theoden is asking Aragorn to ride out to his Death with him. There is no hesitation from Aragorn in Tolkien's text.

'The end will not be long,' said the king. 'But I will not end here, taken like an old badger in a trap. Snowmane and Hasufel and the horses of my guard are in the inner court. When dawn comes, I will bid men sound Helm's horn, and I will ride forth. Will you ride with me then, son of Arathorn? Maybe we shall cleave a road, or make such an end as will be worth a song-if any be left to sing of us hereafter.'
'I will ride with you,' said Aragorn.

I know I may be reading too much into one sentence, but this really strikes a chord with me. To me, Aragorn knows that what he has been building up to for for all his life (the Kingship of Gondor) is now lost. He excepts Theoden's request without hesitation, he does not think of hiding in the Caves, or talking Theoden into holding on for more time.

PS I know Aragorn argues with Theoden before this on Gandalf's whereabouts and seems to cling to hope that Gandalf will arrive somehow, but to me, I read this as a false hope, just a rebuttal to Theoden's point on Gandalf's counsel not looking too good in the morning light.

[Elessar]

I have a question... please reply:
Why did Tolkien abandon some of his works?



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[Formendacil]

Like some of my ancient predecessors on this thread, my first thought reading through this time was that "Helm's Deep" is a rather short chapter--and, related to that, reading it through, it always seems a bit shorter reading it than movie-tinted memories make it. That said, I think it's better in the book, where the overall impression (and others above commented upon Tolkien's narrative methods) is of an actual battle--that is, Tolkien's narration feels closer akin to historical battle accounts (whether written or something filmed, like Band of Brothers to capture a historical account) than it does to the movie version of its account! I suspect, leaning on the foregoing posts here, that a great of this sense to me has to do with the pauses and waiting that are part of the battle. No doubt, the fact that Tolkien had actually participated in real battles aided their creation here.

He wrote it over a decade ago, so I will not hold Aiwendil to defend himself, but I disagree when he writes:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This chapter serves as something of a climax for book III. It's interesting to compare this with the climaxes of books I and II, each of which occurs in the final chapter of its respective book. This climax is greater, though, than either Frodo's escape from the Nazgul at the fords or the breaking of the Fellowship, and this may account for the extra space given to the denouement.

Of course, Aiwendil wisely says "Helm's Deep" is "something" of a climax--a nice way to wiggle out from my disputation that this chapter is not, in fact, the true climax of Book III. I would agree that it is a false climax of sorts--and, certainly, the movies made it into the climax of the book--but the true climax of Book III is "The Voice of Saruman."

Saruman is the defining character of Book III: from Boromir's death, to the Three Hunters' quest, to the death of Théodred, to the defense of Helm's Deep, to the march of Ents, all the main plot actions of the "good" characters are in response to him. Even the shining revelation of Gandalf the White is a reaction to Saruman's evil and failure. That is why I would say that the true climax of the book is the confrontation at Orthanc and the true denouément doesn't begin until thereafter. The Battle of Helm's Deep is an important move on the chessboard: boxing Saruman in and removing one of his great tools, but it's arguably no more significant than the Ents' destruction of Isengard and both seem to be to be set-up for the true climax of the book.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Of course, Aiwendil wisely says "Helm's Deep" is "something" of a climax--a nice way to wiggle out from my disputation that this chapter is not, in fact, the true climax of Book III. I would agree that it is a false climax of sorts--and, certainly, the movies made it into the climax of the book--but the true climax of Book III is "The Voice of Saruman."

Well, perhaps "Helm's Deep" is not the tallest peak but it is a significant one. And though the logical conclusion is, as you well demonstrate, "The Voice of Saruman", the battle can rival it for the greatest emotional excitement. All the preceding events lead up to Helm's Deep progressively: the tension only builds. And logically it is just as you say, it all leads to Saruman - but emotionally, there is a gap that breaks the build-up effect. "The Road to Isengard" is somewhat slow and transitional in nature; though full of tension for the characters, it is more like waiting-time for the reader. Of course the worry and excitement come back when first we meet the hobbits again in a very merry chapter, and then we're anxious to know the result of the parley and we cross our fingers that Theoden will keep his head - but that seems like a peak of its own, isolated from the peak of Helm's Deep.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Like some of my ancient predecessors on this thread, my first thought reading through this time was that "Helm's Deep" is a rather short chapter--and, related to that, reading it through, it always seems a bit shorter reading it than movie-tinted memories make it. That said, I think it's better in the book, where the overall impression (and others above commented upon Tolkien's narrative methods) is of an actual battle--that is, Tolkien's narration feels closer akin to historical battle accounts (whether written or something filmed, like Band of Brothers to capture a historical account) than it does to the movie version of its account! I suspect, leaning on the foregoing posts here, that a great of this sense to me has to do with the pauses and waiting that are part of the battle. No doubt, the fact that Tolkien had actually participated in real battles aided their creation here.

I never counted the pages, but it always seemed a long chapter to me. You feel the time going slowly by. The attackers do this for a long time. Then they do that. Then there is a skirmish. Then people talk. Then they wait. Then they wait more. Then another fight breaks out, and it takes a long time to subdue. Is this night ever going to end? How many events can happen in just a single night! The chapter gives me more awareness of the time passing; it seems like a long chapter because it feels long. I suppose it's just as you said, a more believable version of a battle - you believe it more and you experience it better. I don't remember what exactly the movie has done with the battle, but if it really is long then it's definitely for a different reason.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I never counted the pages, but it always seemed a long chapter to me. You feel the time going slowly by. The attackers do this for a long time. Then they do that. Then there is a skirmish. Then people talk. Then they wait. Then they wait more. Then another fight breaks out, and it takes a long time to subdue. Is this night ever going to end? How many events can happen in just a single night! The chapter gives me more awareness of the time passing; it seems like a long chapter because it feels long. I suppose it's just as you said, a more believable version of a battle - you believe it more and you experience it better. I don't remember what exactly the movie has done with the battle, but if it really is long then it's definitely for a different reason.

I definitely agree--and I think that the mental impression of the chapter having so much going on in it, which feels as though it drags long through the night, is why, upon actually reading it, it seemed surprisingly short. Compared with something like "The Council of Elrond," it was a quick read--I not only got through it in one baby's nap, I actually ran out of chapter! It's an effect of pacing more than content, and it's impressive.