Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

1

Is the loneliest number?

[Galadriel55]

Can someone explain?...

What on earth does 1 have to do with...anything?

[jallanite]

Why is 1 the loneliest number?

It’s like the song says:

One is one and all alone,
And ever more shall be so.

[Mithadan]

I did not have time to make my post earlier, and did not feel like searching for this thread again. So I left myself a place holder.

I am completing a re-read of LoTR, my first in 4 years. This is unlike me, as I read the books at least once a year when I was younger. At any rate, I came across something that immediately reminded me of this thread and some posts that I made here long ago. In short, and in the words of my profession, I write to "confess error".

Read this thread from the first post. It is an example of why this board is both fun as well as intellectually challenging. It begins with an apparently unanswerable question. What happened to Elladan and Elrohir? The thread travels through possible answers to the specific question, speculation upon the nature of the half-elven generally and the children of Elrond specifically, and even touches upon the issue of canon; what is most reliable as a source of information in Tolkien's work.

There is a great debate about "canon" somewhere on this board. The general consensus was that works published during Tolkien's lifetime were the most reliable (with debate as to LoTR versus The Hobbit versus the "lesser works" such as Tom Bombadil). Everything published posthumously is of somewhat uncertain reliability with varying opinions regarding The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and the multiple and varying versions of materials found in HoME.

To start getting to the point, I am currently reading the Appendices to LoTR; an often overlooked source of information and enjoyment. For those of you who don't know this, if I recall correctly, the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of Return of the King. JRRT had gone overboard and created an altogether too long and comprehensive work that would have required a fourth volume of LoTR to publish the Appendices in their entirety. He had to edit it down drastically. The pieces he cut are found in HoME 12. These excerpts are very well written, were prepared with the intention that they be published, and to return to the issue of canonicity, probably are more reliable than any version of the Silmarillion.

Anyway, in the published appendices, which deserve even greater deference than the unpublished excerpts found in Peoples of Middle Earth, there is the following refrence to the children of Elrond which appears to have been overlooked in this thread.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth."

OK. I was wrong when I argued that the initial choice of Elrond bound his children and that the "Choice of Luthien" given to Arwen somehow arose after she married Aragorn. This quote also raises the question of whether Elladan and Elrohir made their choice merely by not accompanying Elrond.

The above quote does not resolve potential inconsistencies debated above. But as part of his work published during Tolkien's lifetime, it deserves considerable deference, equal to that accorded to LoTR and more than Letters, The Silmarillion or HoME... Or is it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I did not have time to make my post earlier, and did not feel like searching for this thread again. So I left myself a place holder.

Aww. I wanted to see more head-scratching over it.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

OK. I was wrong when I argued that the initial choice of Elrond bound his children and that the "Choice of Luthien" given to Arwen somehow arose after she married Aragorn. This quote also raises the question of whether Elladan and Elrohir made their choice merely by not accompanying Elrond.

The above quote does not resolve potential inconsistencies debated above. But as part of his work published during Tolkien's lifetime, it deserves considerable deference, equal to that accorded to LoTR and more than Letters, The Silmarillion or HoME... Or is it?

Personally, I think that quote has the right of it. Or should. For the sake of fairness, if nothing else. Why should Arwen be made to make her irrevocable choice before her daddy left, when her brothers get some indefinite period to think things over? The words of Tolkien in Letters # 153, here:

The end of [Elrond's] sons...is not told. They delay their choice and remain for a while.

were from a draft letter written in 1954. I like to think the "delay" was perhaps only meant in the sense that the brothers didn't choose when Arwen did, but still decided before Elrond left. If that was indeed the case, then both apparently picked picked mortality.
There's still plenty of room for debate, granted, but it still just doesn't seem right that the standards would be seemingly different among Elrond's children.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

From Letter No. 151

* It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo’s : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

The impression I get is that here as with so many other matters around the edges Tolkien never really made up his mind, and even his 'definitive' statements may conceal complexity when expressed elliptically or briefly. Suffice it to say that Elrond's children got to make the Choice at some point, but it's unclear when.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

That's from Appendix B.

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn...went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.

It doesn't say that the choice had been made one way or the other, but isn't it still possible they had chosen, and had decided on mortality?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

From Letter No. 151

* It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo’s : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

The impression I get is that here as with so many other matters around the edges Tolkien never really made up his mind, and even his 'definitive' statements may conceal complexity when expressed elliptically or briefly. Suffice it to say that Elrond's children got to make the Choice at some point, but it's unclear when.

That letter given even more to my question (in another thread) about just how Gimli gets the right to go sail west (or for that matter Sam if the family rumors are true) At that point there is NO one who could give that sort of authrority still in ME (unless you believe that Radagast, even though he failed and is not going back himself, still has, as an emmisary of the Valar, enough authority to give others that permission. Not likely).
And another question that arises, how much of Elronds bloodline to you have to be to keep the choice. Elrond himself chooses to stay immortal, and his children all get to keep the choice, so obviously the choice he made did not effect his children (i.e. he chose immortality, so they were stuck with it). But if that was the case, why was the choice not given to Elros's children. The moment Elros chooses a mortal life as Tar-Minyutar, it seems that his choice applies not only to him, but his decendents (i.e. we never hear of any of his sons being informed that they could choose to be immortal). Granted it may have something to do with bloodlines (Elronds kids are 3/4 elf while Elros's are only 1/4) or Elros's sons may have considered living a mortal life as Kings of Numenor as preferable to an immortal one as a mere elf noble, but it does seem a little unfair to them (especially if Elros was never told his choice would so affect them, which I don't think he was).

[Mithalwen]

For the sons of Elrond, the comment "stayed a while" could equally imply that they then left. There may have been a grace period, some sort of mopping up operation perhaps. Arwen of course had made her choice prior to Elrond's departure and having thrown her lot in with Aragorn she had made her choice for ever - else Elrond might have remained the trivial in Elven terms span until Aragorn died.

As for the children of Elros not being given the choice, well while they of course had majority mortal blood and married mortals, I think it was more of a case of the Gift of Iluvatar being too precious to be denied anyone who was remotely entitled to it.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As for the children of Elros not being given the choice, well while they of course had majority mortal blood and married mortals, I think it was more of a case of the Gift of Iluvatar being too precious to be denied anyone who was remotely entitled to it.

Well, if the gift is regarded so precios, then it's a little odd that Elrond and his progeny get the choice in the first place; seems to me that under that logic, the true reward would be to make both brothers and all of their spawn mortal, whether they wanted to be or not. I don't see that giving them the choice denies them the gift; it just gives them the option of not accepting it if they don't want to.
To me, it almost seems as if they are implying that choosing mortality is always the "right" choice, and immortality, always the "wrong". Make the "wrong" and you descendent's are given another chance to make the "right" one. On the other hand, make the "right" one, and you children are freed from having to make the decsion themselves; your choice already saved them. There may be a strain of Tolkein's Catholicism in this, i.e. the concept that death is not only a blessing, but the greatest blessing of all, and the sooner it happens, the greater that blessing is. Conversely, immortality on this earth is actually a curse, since living forever denies you your heavenly rewards forever (i.e. the root of the legend of the Wandering Jew).

[Mithalwen]

I think it is linked to his Catholicism but I don't follow how you can say that enforcing the choice which is no choice is the same as offering the choice to those who have majority immortal blood. Free will is an important concept in Catholicism after all. I think it is a result of us as mortals envying immortality while the Valar who offered the choice are conscious of the burden of immortality.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

For those of you who don't know this, if I recall correctly, the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of Return of the King.

The Appendices appeared in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings and in the Ace paperback edition, though not as much material as Tolkien originally wished to include. These are the same Appendices that appear again in the second edition with only a very small number of modifications and some additions, and these are the Appendices that still appear with a few corrections.

It is untrue to say that the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of The Return of the King.

It is true that some of the material originally planned for the Appendices only appears in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12). But this material is at least of dubious canonicity.

See Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), page 234, which assigns the marriage of Elrond to Celebrían to the year 2300 of the Third Age and later remarks:

The children [Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, the offspring of Elrond] were three parts of the Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the Elves, so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

This seems to slightly expand on the account given in Appendix B, and we are told soon afterwards on the following page in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) that Elladan and Elrohir were born in 2349 of the Third Age and that Arwen was born in the same year.

But in Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings instead Elrond marries Celebrían in the year 109 of the Third Age, Elladan and Elrohir are born in 130, and Arwen is born in 241. This is a problem with Mithadan’s belief that the extra material in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) should be accepted on a level with the material published in Tolkien’s lifetime under his control, often this material does not agree with the material published in Tolkien’s lifetime under his control.

On page 257 of Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) occurs in an earlier draft version of Appendix A (emphasis mine):

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they wedded with one of Mankind, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

This restatement of what would make the children of Elrond mortal is restated in the published Appendix A (emphasis mine):

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Apparently in his first writing of this passage Tolkien was not particularly thinking of Elladan and Elrohir and only later, when rewriting it, does he make the choice depend on whether the children of Elrond choose to depart with their father.

The difficulty is that this apparently final decision of Tolkien that the immortality of Elladan and Elrohir depends on whether or not they depart with their father is undercut by Tolkien’s definite statement in letter 153 of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:

The end of his [Elrond’s] sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice and remain for a while.

That almost all of this information comes from supposed notesin the Appendices creates the further difficulty that Tolkien at some point, I can’t find where at the moment, expressed the idea that he was no longer much bothered by supposed discrepancies within the Appendices because the most unrealistic thing in his Appendices compared to comparable real-world chronicles from the real world is that the real-world chronicles contain more discrepancies and inconsistencies than his Appendices.

[sneha]

I believe the choice cannot be take back. She chose to be a mortal and now she had to abide by it. As for Elladan and Elrohir I hope they went back to Valinor else it would be tragic for Elrond to lose all three of his children. I can understand their desire to delay the choice. Their sister and foster brother were in Arda plus it was the land of their birth. Just like Celeborn who wasn't weary of middle earth yet. Even Tharanduil's people were in Arda for some time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's perhaps worth observing that Tolkien was in the habit of expressing himself, for brevity, in an elliptical form which appeared more definitive on the surface than his actual intent; this is especially true of his frequernt use of 'rhetorical hyperbole' ias in "fairest," "greatest," "Eldest" etc. Given that this is Tolkien, again writing in compressed form (and the appendices as published were decidely 'comprerssed' from his point of view!), "depart with him [Elrond]" doesn't I think necessarily mean that they had to get on the same boat. Would it "count" if they sailed on another ship in the same flotilla? One that weighed anchor a day later? A week? And if that, then why not within the same 'yen' (144 solar years)? In the Elvish view of time, that's practically the next day.

(Incidentally my own inclination, given the Twins' fierce attachment to their mother, is that they did sail West to be with her again).

[Galin]

Very good points WCH, and I've always maintained that this was open to the interpretation you are suggesting.

Still, in Appendix A [Tale of Aragorn and Arwen] Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

But that all said, it could go either way, yes.

When Tolkien wrote that the end of the sons of Elrond is not told [the letter] he seems to have meant [at the time] that the reader isn't even going to know if they stayed or sailed with Elrond. It is only much later [I think], in the second edition of the 1960s, that he 'told' this much: that they remained when Elrond sailed.

However it seem to be the case that JRRT intended to tell that much in 1955 too:

'For I shall be surprised if the King doesn't bid us to his great house by Lake Evendim. And there will be Elladan and Elrohir too, who still live at Rivendell -- and with them will be Elves.'

The Epilogue, Sauron Defeated

So there goes my earlier theory that Tolkien, only years after this letter was written [and thus possibly forgotten], had decided to at least let the reader know they had remained after Elrond sailed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

The ambiguity is certainly there. I consider that the Shire Records could simply be misinformation, as we're left to wonder how the hobbit-author came to that conclusion. Did he go to Rivendell himself and speak with Elladan and Elrohir?

In any case, as is noted the departure of Elrond would seem to indeed be a monumental event in the half-elven history. Arwen was forced to choose then, and not only because of her intended mortal husband. The indication is that had she not wedded Aragorn she would have gone with her father. Did she want that? Was Elrond not giving her a choice in the matter, unless she chose mortality to be with Aragorn? Surely that was not it. If so, old Elessar might have kept it in the back of his mind that his wife could have had ulterior motives for marrying him, quite apart from Lúthien-like love. Why could she not delay her choice, if her brothers could?

I also would wonder just how long is enough time to choose, for the brethren. The Third Age ending, and the Dominion of Men beginning would seem an optimal time to make the decision. Just what else would they have been waiting for?

[Alfirin]

Another point to consider would be Eldarion, or more accurately, Aragorn's heir. As you pointed out, there really is no reason why Arwen HAS to renounce her immortality in order to marry Aragorn by any sort of law. Elves marrying mortal men is incredibly rare, but it's not exactly uncheard of (especially in Arwen's own family) So why is it so imperative for Arwen to be mortal to marry him. I think the matter of the heir is at least part. Arwen presumably knows Aragron wants kids (or more accurately, that one of the fundamental needs of any king is to have an heir) Elves, we know tend to have kids pretty late in life (even by thier extended standards) It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live (in other words the difference between being an elf and being a human may be deeper than "one is immortal, one isn't). And come to think of it, if Arwen COULD have kids with Aragorn as an elf, what does that leave those kids? We know that mortal Arwen and mortal Aragorn resulted in mortal Eldarion. If Arwen had still been elf, where would that have left him. Another person with the choice, except NOW the choice is between immortality and rule of the West. We've already seen what the craving for immortality did to the Men of the Numenorian line, imagine what might happen if one of them GOT it; a king of Gondor/Arnor who knew he could basically rule FOREVER. That's probably more tempatation than any human mind can stand without going mad (He'd probably basically turn into a Ringwraith without ring.)

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live

I think she could have kids at her age. It is said in Morgoth's Ring, "their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life... whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding." [212] Since Elves are said to marry even as early as their 50th year and in the above quote it's said that soon after marriage they had kids I think Arwen was clearly old enough to have children. I think it was probably the right time for her to have kids because Elves tended to have kids in times of relative peace although in her case that came when she was human.

[Belegorn]

I would think the trouble with an immortal king of Gondor would not be for the king's own cravings for immortality as he already is immortal, but his mortal descendants who can never claim the throne and die as their ancestor who was able to choose an immortal life cannot share that choice with them. However, I'm not sure he would be fit to rule the Men of Gondor because he would no longer be a Man. So maybe if one of his other siblings choice mortality they would be that ruler and not himself. Or the reign would fall to one of the Dunedain close to the king's house.

[Alfirin]

Well, I was sort of assuming that a king who knew from birth he was immortal might not consider HAVING kids or (as we are talking about a world where one must assume birth control is primitve at best) might actually go so far as making sure no kids he had survived long enough to desire the throne.
Yes, that is fine so long as it is an either or choice (you can be immortal and live an elf's life, or you can be mortal and king. The problem, as I was trying to point out, is what happens when the heir doesn't see any reason he can't have BOTH, to rule Gondor eternally. Yes, as an immortal he would no longer be a man and no longer fit to rule Gondro, but the trick is how the hell you get him to stop, or keep him from the throne. Utimately, it might come down to someone actually having to KILL the king (elves can be slain, so presumably, half elves can as well.)
The danger I was trying to refer to is more a mental one than a pysical one, the human brain just isn't equipped to handling living forever, it would crack. Also having the same person ruling forever might result in total stasis for the world, as the king is likey to get a little "set in his ways" over time. I admit that, in the Tolkien verse, that might not be seen as a bad thing (since the general tone is that thing only get worse over time,the Past is always better than the present or future, and the mark of a "good future" is one that strives to return to the ways of before. But from a modern POV, this sounds pretty horrible.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the Aragorn-Arwen marriage wasn't quite like that of Earendil and Elwing: Aragorn was all Man (OK, there was an infinitesimal drop of Elvish blood); whereas Earendil was literally a half-Elf and Elwing roughly so (5/8 Elf). Elrond and Elros therefore were of mixed parentage on both sides, and it wasn't a case of 'choosing' or 'being' or 'having to be' like one or the other parent.

Moreover, the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen re-united the long-sundered branches of the Half-Elven; there was a closure there, a repair of a long-standing disruption of the 'natural order'- and, according to Tolkienian historiography, one which had existed *precisely* to provide a renewed Elvish and angelic strain in the Kings of Men in the new Age of Men. (I suppose it's worth noting that Aragorn was the only living descendant of Elros, it's not like there were other human Children of Luthien knocking around Middle-earth---unlike, say, the new Targaryens that pop up from behind every rock in Westeros......).


Of course, it would help if we could answer the very vexed question of to which race Dior belonged.......

[Belegorn]

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.

I would imagine that Dior was given a choice as well. The reason being that no definitive ruling had been made about the nature of the Half-elven. When Earendil reaches Valinor both Ulmo and Mandos question whether he is an elf or man. This implies that no ruling had yet been made on the nature of Dior and his sons. I like to think and imagine the Valar be fair would give Dior a choice, but we have no way of knowing.

As for his characteristics I think we can be sure that Dior was just like the other Half-elven. He even declares himself the first of their kind.


On the case of Elrond's sons, I believe it likely that they eventually sailed to the West. To even want to change ones fate usually took something momentous. Luthien fell in love, Tuor fell in love, Arwen fell in love and Elros was to rule Numenor. Elladan and Elrohir had been living as elves for 3000 years. It does not strike me as likely they would switch without a great change in their lives. We are told they delayed the decision and think it's likely they helped sort out the Northern kingdom and left after things had been settled.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I would imagine that Dior was given a choice as well. The reason being that no definitive ruling had been made about the nature of the Half-elven. When Earendil reaches Valinor both Ulmo and Mandos question whether he is an elf or man. This implies that no ruling had yet been made on the nature of Dior and his sons. I like to think and imagine the Valar be fair would give Dior a choice, but we have no way of knowing.

Since Dior was slain in Middle-earth, his spirit would have come to Mandos, I believe. Since the Valar act in Eärendil's case as if the question of the kindred of the half-elven hadn't occurred to them, I would think Dior was counted among the Elves by default, and he also had a greater portion of the Maia from his grandmother, which might bolster that.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

... I would think Dior was counted among the Elves by default, and he also had a greater portion of the Maia from his grandmother, which might bolster that.

Maybe. But consider also that, by the time Dior was conceived and born, Luthien had already chosen to become mortal (so that her fea could leave Ea entirely). Beren was already Atani.

Seems to me just as likely that Dior, being born to two mortals (i.e. to two who already mortal), would himself, therefore, have been mortal. That is, it's the state of your parents when you are born, not how they were when THEY were born.

Now *HIS* sons, Elured & Elurin - - - that would make THEM true half-elves (born to an elf "Nimloth" and Dior, a mortal - in this thinking). And both of *THEM* died before the voyage of Earendil & Elwing - so the question still remains.

Did *THEIR* Fea, coming to Mandos, have the chief characteristic of Mortals - the "seeking elsewither", the desire to leave Ea? Or would their Fea have hung around in Mandos waiting for a reolution of which we are never told?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Maybe. But consider also that, by the time Dior was conceived and born, Luthien had already chosen to become mortal (so that her fea could leave Ea entirely). Beren was already Atani.

Seems to me just as likely that Dior, being born to two mortals (i.e. to two who already mortal), would himself, therefore, have been mortal. That is, it's the state of your parents when you are born, not how they were when THEY were born.

Now *HIS* sons, Elured & Elurin - - - that would make THEM true half-elves (born to an elf "Nimloth" and Dior, a mortal - in this thinking). And both of *THEM* died before the voyage of Earendil & Elwing - so the question still remains.

Did *THEIR* Fea, coming to Mandos, have the chief characteristic of Mortals - the "seeking elsewither", the desire to leave Ea? Or would their Fea have hung around in Mandos waiting for a reolution of which we are never told?

Whether Dior was immortal or not there can be no doubt he was one of the Half-elven.

What makes me think that the issue had yet to be decided is that if Dior and his sons had passed beyond Arda or stayed in Mandos then the Valar would have known precisely how to deal with Earendil. It is also possible that up until that time they were dealing with the problem on a case by case basis.

I just remembered that there is further evidence that Elladan and Elrohir left for Valinor. Arwen and Eldarion are mentioned as the heirs to all the elvish lands. Elrond's sons being older would have a greater claim to these Elvish lands if they had stayed in ME. Since they were passed to Arwen it implies they left with the rest of the Elves.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

[Ivriniel]

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North. I suspect they took wives who were of the Dunedain and fortified the longevity of the Numenereans in Exile in the Fourth Age.

Dior, as I remember, was also not someone who had the life of the Eldar. Luthien chose a mortal life, which is a slight variation on the way the mythology puts the Choice of the Peredhil (Half Elven). Dior being Luthien's and Beren's son cannot claim an immortal life in that context. However, I also recall that Luthien's end was prior to the War of Wrath at the end of the first age. The Choice of the Peredhil was put together by the Valar, formerly, after Earendil in Vingilot made it into the Uttermost West and pleaded with the Valar to render aid. Earendil's plea was successful, but something else came of it, which was his immortality, which to that point, had no precedent (again, Luthien perished, having relinquished her heritage, somehow). I also seem to remember that Earendil was actually somewhat reluctant to take on the Life of the Eldar, but did so for Elwing's sake and by her plea to her husband. He certainly has a very boring life, I would say, rising day after day, in Vingilot, as the Evenstar, and as he must until the fulfilment of the Second Prophesy when Melkor returns through the Doors of Night. I'm not sure I would want to live that way!

Cheers
Ivriniel

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North.

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though

The problem I have with the twins remaining is that ever time an Elf/Halfelven/Man has changed their fate it has been for a great and high destiny. It is not something, which happens on a whim. I know that technically the children of Elrond were not changing their fate, but they had lived a long time with the life of the Eldar.

I don't see the Sons of Elrond changing the state they had been living unless it was for a great and history changing event.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here

This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.

[Ivriniel]

@Celludur

That's an interesting take to put it as about 'changing fates/destinies'. I see where you're going.

@all

We only actually have one union of Elves and Men--after--The Choice of the Peredhil was formalised at that ring of meeting place thing in Valinor (it's got a particular name, and that was where Earendil pleaded to the Valar, while Elwing sat in the getaway car, waiting for hubby to return--it's a beautiful story though--Elwing throwing herself into the seas and Ulmo bearing her up and transforming her into a swan as she flew in the night with the Silmaril back to Earendil, who caught her, and she awoke, in the morning herself again). The one union is Aragorn and Arwen.

What we also never (well, not quite) hear about, is the reference to is the union of Elves and Men in Imrahil's line. There was, presumably, the 'first' half elven at some point way back when. Recall Finduilas? All that stuff about her, oceans and tossing herself into the water, or becoming lost. I've always wondered about this union, and how it escaped attention, and wondered whether those Peredhil (half elves) ever had The Choice of the Peredhil. Somewhere I read that there were only ever 'three unions of Elves and Men'--Tuor/Idril--though Earendil wedded Elwing who was Dior's kid; Beren/Luthien, and Aragorn/Arwen, which is not really reconcilable with what we know of Imrahil's people and Dol Amroth (even the name of the region recognises the Elvish heritage, where Amroth came from the then Lorien, before Galadriel and Celeborn took over leadership of the realm).

Also, we know that Imrahil son of Adrahil II was born in 2955 TA, and Denethor II married Imrahil's sister, Finduilas (a latter-named Finduilas; also my avatar is another sister of Imrahil), and so Imrahil is Boromir's and Faramir's uncle. This implies there is Elvish blood in that line, which is news to me (I just read this) but we did know Faramir was of particularly 'fair' bearing.

I believe this is not quite true.

[Belegorn]

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

Trippy hey

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

What we also never (well, not quite) hear about, is the reference to is the union of Elves and Men in Imrahil's line. There was, presumably, the 'first' half elven at some point way back when. Recall Finduilas? All that stuff about her, oceans and tossing herself into the water, or becoming lost. I've always wondered about this union, and how it escaped attention, and wondered whether those Peredhil (half elves) ever had The Choice of the Peredhil.

Apparently they did not. In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]. In letter 153 Tolkien says, "the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share."

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

This was from a disregarded draft. At the time they were chosen as stewards, they may not have had the royal connection. 1000 years ruling over Gondor and having married into the Prince's of Dol Amroth at least once then they it's very unlikely they were descendants of Anarion.

The choice to choose what kindred was a special gift given to Earendil and his family due to their sacrifice for ME.

I personally think there is some leeway about what happened to Halfelven before the decision, but once the judgment of Mandos is made all of the Halfelven are mortal.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This was from a disregarded draft. At the time they were chosen as stewards, they may not have had the royal connection. 1000 years ruling over Gondor and having married into the Prince's of Dol Amroth at least once then they it's very unlikely they were descendants of Anarion.

The choice to choose what kindred was a special gift given to Earendil and his family due to their sacrifice for ME.

I personally think there is some leeway about what happened to Halfelven before the decision, but once the judgment of Mandos is made all of the Halfelven are mortal.

Was or was not Denethor II the uncle of Imrahil, by marriage? Was Finduilas Denethor II's wife or not? Tolkien online materials state she was. This union, if supported in materials available, does imply Faramir has some Elvish blood. Imrahil does as is noted, clearly, and we do know Imrahil has *two* sisters--I (Ivriniel) am one of them and Finduilas is the second.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Apparently they did not. In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]. In letter 153 Tolkien says, "the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share."

Interesting. His comment in Letters really does jell with what we know of Arwen's fate, and the idea of deferred choice makes sense.

On Dior, I may have made a mistake in my writings, upstream. He married Nimloth (this name is so confusing in the mythology. This was a Nimloth of Doriath, I think, and Elwing's brothers were Elurid and Elurin, who were killed in the Sack of Doriath). I'm not clear that Dior was Mortal, but always thought he must have been because Luthien relinquished her immortality for Beren.

In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]

Who are you talking about here?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Was or was not Denethor II the uncle of Imrahil, by marriage? Was Finduilas Denethor II's wife or not? Tolkien online materials state she was. This union, if supported in materials available, does imply Faramir has some Elvish blood. Imrahil does as is noted, clearly, and we do know Imrahil has *two* sisters--I (Ivreniel) am one of them and Finduilas is the second.

Denethor and Imrahil were brothers-in-law.

I was not arguing about Faramir's elvish blood from Finduilas, but whether they are descendants of Anarion from a female line.

The House of Stewards even after ruling Gondor for a thousand years were behind the Prince's of Dol Amroth and at least one other family and probably more. So at the time they were raised to Stewards they may not have yet intermarried with the royal family.

Since you like Ivriniel and the Dol Amroth's so much, you may know it or not, but Eomer and Eowyn were descendants of the Princes too.