![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,301
![]() |
12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
This is the first draft of the chapter 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor.
Our basis text is that of Annals of Aman given in HoMe 10. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: FoN-EX-xx for Flight of the Noldor, Expansions FoN-LQ-xx for Flight of the Noldor, for changes that bring additions from the Quenta Silamrillion to the last state in which Tolkien worked in the Later Quenta. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
FoN-LQ-01 & FoN-LQ-02: Bringing QS to LQ. FoN-EX-02: Orodreth is no longer a son of Finarfin but a grandson. We might discuss if he as the only third generation kin of Finwë’s family spoke at all in this debate in Tirion. FoN-EX-03: Galadriel is most probably no longer the youngest in the Hous of Finwë, since Celebrimbor, Idril and Orodreth are all third generation. Celebrimbor as the son of Curufin might have been older and Idril might not yet have been born but at least Orodreth as son of her brother would nearly for sure be younger. FoN-EX-04: Here I added a part of what I named source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. FoN-EX-05: If Galadriel should fight against the Feanorians in Aqualondë Galadriel can not leave Tirion with the other Noldor, therefore these addition. FoN-EX-06: This addition from Shibboleth needs to be placed here. FoN-EX-07: I didn’t found any other source for this, but I think it should be taken up into the text. FoN-EX-08: This passages from LQ is specially interesting by showing Feanor fearing Helkaraxë. FoN-LQ-03 & FoN-LQ-04: Bringing QS to LQ. FoN-EX-09: QS does put much more emphasis on the singularity oft he Telerin ships. FoN-EX-10: Here I mixed the ‚lend‘ from AAm into the text of LQ. FoN-EX-11: This description of Aqualondë is worth to be taken, We can of course discuss if this is the right place, but I think it is, because it is reffered to later in this chapter. FoN-EX-12: We already told the reaction of the Teleri, so this has to go. FoN-EX-13: LT adds some direct ‘speech’ here. FoN-EX-14 & FoN-EX-15 & FoN-EX-16: Here I mixed the accounts of the start oft he battle. The goal was to keep the story line as in AAm but taking up fitting details from LT. FoN-EX-17: Having heard of Círdan’s attemps to build ships even to driven them on the sea of Rûhn the ships of the Teleri can no longer be called the first ever to have been. FoN-EX-18: Again source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But I did not take up the rescue of the ship. In that way it is open if Galadriel had already built a ship or not. FoN-EX-19: The detail that the Noldor had to fight their way back from the arc oft he haeven is only found in LT. FoN-EX-20: See FoN-EX-23. If Fingon is not involved, the Arakáno is the most candidate to take that roll, as he was most eager of the brothers. FoN-EX-21: The sad picture of the silent heaven with the broken lamps, I found to moving to be left out. FoN-EX-22: I added here again a part of source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does here provide the information what Galadriel did, so we have to edit it. FoN-EX-23: An addition from LQ that makes clear that the princes were guiltyless. FoN-EX-24, FoN-EX-25 & FoN-EX-26: Fingolfin anrageing Feanor by claiming the kingship of their father. FoN-EX-27 & FoN-EX-28: Here we burn Feanors youngest with the ships. FoN-EX-29 & FoN-EX-30: Her we add Elenwë’s death and Turgon reactions to it. Respectfully Findegil |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
![]() |
This was a very nice draft, and I have very few comments. Everything to which I do not respond, I agree to.
FoN-LQ-02: It should be Calacirya, as per LotR. FoN-EX-02: I would leave him in, with the change you made. He is an important figure, even if less than the others. FoN-EX-05: I do not agree with your logic there. If there was fighting she could easily have fought against Feanor and been left on the shore to march with the others. I see no compelling reason to include such a drastic editorial addition. FoN-LQ-04: Agreed, but it should be Helcaraxë, both here and subsequently. FoN-EX-11: This is the perfect place for this ![]() FoN-EX-18: This is good, but the insertion is awkward, as it refers tomany dying and then says "indeed ..." but as Galadriel did not die, this is incorrect. I would start the insertion at "Galadriel" and prefix it to the following sentence, like so: Quote:
Everything else, I agree with, but the text has "Endar" for "Endor" and should be changed. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
![]() |
I have found two more additions from the Shibboleth of Feanor:
In the first part, after the hosts depart from Tirion: Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 10-07-2017 at 11:23 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
![]() |
Here's a brief thought i had. If we were to include Tolkien's unfinished Flight of the Noldor poem, we should do so in this chapter. Should we do so?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,301
![]() |
FoN-LQ-02 and FoN-LQ-04: Agreed I forgot to introduce the general change.
FoN-EX-02: Okay for me. FoN-EX-05: Well no other member of the House of Finarfin or his following were involved in the fight at Aqualondë. Beside Feanor and his people only the vanguard of the people of Fingolfin how were the second in the march colon took part in the fight. If Galadriel left Tiriron with her father and brethren than she would not have seen anything of the action, only the final result. Therefore it is no question that she did depart from Tirion on her own. Bu t we might debate if it is necessary to point that out explicitly. FoN-EX-18: Agreed. FoN-EX-20: It is either Arakano/Argon or we have to leave out all princes. As for using Argon, I have already said that the Shibboleth tells that the character was himself never known under that name, so I don’t think we can use it to address him. FoN-EX-07.5: Nice find, I agree to take it up. But I observed that we might change after that insert Fingon to Arakáno/Argon in correspondence to FoN-EX-20 and his description in the SF as the most impetuous of the brethren. I will call that change FoN-EX-07.6 FoN-EX-28.5: Nice find, but I think this would be better placed earlier: Quote:
Respecfully Findegil |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
![]() |
FoN-EX-05: I see this logic, and I agree, but I still feel that such an addition is not warranted, and probably breaks the rules of the project. If we say nothing, it can be assumed by the reader without much difficulty.
FoN-EX-20: I agree to use Argon for the instance, but I am still unsure about the name. I suppose it would be good to have Aiwendil or gandalf to comment on this one. FoN-EX-7.6: Sounds good to me. FoN-EX-28.5: This is much better, you're right! Poem: Yes, you are right. We can simply include it in the poem section in Volume III. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
![]() |
Just found this while editing Q&E:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-08-2017 at 10:02 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 162
![]() |
I had inserted before hhe cross the sea with the ships in the north of araman. And directly change the word for Taniquetil.
Greetings |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,301
![]() |
To change teh word to Taniquetil is to much of a liberty for me, but I like to the idea of taking this up. But the position where to put it must be discussed.
I don't think that even without mist the Taniquetil could be seen from northern Araman where the Noldor halted and debated and from where Feanor took the ships to cross Belegar. So I do not see that gondowe's positioning of the passage is possible. I find ArcusCalion's positioning more probalbe, but I would postpone it a view more sentences. As already mentioned for the passage to work the Taniquetil must have been at least in clear weather conditions to be viewable from the geographic point reached by Faenor at that time. As long as he is within Calacirya, I don't think he could see the summit at all, being to near to the cheer walls at the foot of the mountian. Reaching Aqualondë could also be to late since the northern branch of the Pelori probably would block the view. So I think he must be on the northern coast of the Bay of Eldamar. Therefore I would position it as follwos: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
![]() |
Why can we not create a footnote?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 162
![]() |
First of all say that I dont have at hand the texts cause im not at home for a time.
As for the location, this is something I thought in the moment I inserted, but in the proper sentence is said "the distant mountains of Valinor"; in my opinion this is enough to think the Noldor were far from them, and they must be in Araman because "the mists of Araman". Of course in my location Taniquetil is very far away but it was the highest mountain of Arda and in other way of thought it is not neccesary that could be seen, only can curse in its direction. But, again coul be my erroneous interpretation of english? As for the word if you want to maintain Dahanigwishtilgūn, in my opinion is neccesary a footnote explain something like this very obscure word and not insert it into the narrative that sounds out of context like (for me) every philological, etc text. But I think is better to change directly in Taniquetil because is a possible explanation into the subcreation not a especulation of us. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 12-09-2017 at 01:11 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,301
![]() |
gondowe, I can see your reasoning. It is true that the direct sense of these introduction is that the Noldor are fare from the Pelori, which makes your placement more likely. And yes you are also right that Taniquetil is the highes of all mountains, and might be in a flat world, as we propose it, seen from very, very far away.
So that would mean: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |