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Old 08-23-2017, 04:51 PM   #1
Findegil
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Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Time

This is the first draft of the chapter 1 Of the Beginning of Time. The shift of the material from the Ainulindalë into this chapter and the split of this first chapter was discussed in the thread about the Ainulindalë. The shift is as well the reason why some of the changes have already been discussed and why there is kind of a mess with the editing marker in this chapter.

Our text basis would be that of Ainulidalë D given in HoME 10. But it is not much left of it. The text is rather amalgamated from Myths Transfromed, Ainulidalë D, Later Quenta Silmarillion and Annals of Aman. Therefore all snippets that are used have a source info at their beginning.

We have four three groups of changes:

General changes given in the text below and discussed in the thread ‘General changes in TftE’. These changes are taken up here and marked in the text as changes (e.g. {Úrin}[Húrin]), but they are not indicated by "editorial markers". For the general changes please look into the Thread ‘General changes in TftE’.

AINU-zz these were numbered by Antione, when the passages were still part of the Ainulindalë. I will stick to these editing marker for consistence reference.

I have renumbered all the other changes with BoT-zz

Some conventions of our writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{to be deleted} = text that should be deleted, for a better readability I have in this file crossed the text out. The forum does not support crossed out text.
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is not repeated before each §. But sometimes the new § was taken as a new add and handled accordingly.

Quote:
BoT-01 <AAm 1 Of the Beginning of Time>
BoT-02 <MT, 2 After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Eä, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Ilúvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. …
Chief of the Valar of Arda was he whom the Eldar afterwards named Manwë, the Blessed: the Elder King, since he was the first of all kings in {[Arda >] }Eä. … that is: that comes from wills and being{ [sic]} that are other than Arda itself.
And as is known well, the prime among these is Melkor. …
As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. …
When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind>BoT-03 <Ainulidale D {§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposes}; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, … And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar{, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart}.>
BoT-04 <Ainulidale D §29 {And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would}[ was told by] the Valar{ tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming.{: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?
}{§30 And Pengoloð answered: … But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.
§31 This}But this tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters in ages past. {For they tell us that the}The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. BoT-05 <AAm {And Melkor}He wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in BoT-06{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.}BoT-07 <AAm , but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth} BoT-08<MT; 2 {But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä)} and he was driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar.>{; and}Thereafter there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.> BoT-09<Ainulidale D §24 {And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but}And he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart.>
BoT-10<Ainulidale D §25 But the Valar now took to themselves shape and hue; … and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice; even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment, but is not made thereby. BoT-11 <Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17 <The fanar <taken from above [or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have had a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to have assumed an awe-inspiring height.>
BoT-12{And Manwë and Ulmo and Aulë were as Kings; but Varda was the Queen of the Valar, and the spouse of Manwë, and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence. Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulë; but Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda. }AINU-09 But{ think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself}, long years agone, in the land of the Valar {have seen }Yavanna has been seen in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.>
BoT-13<Ainulidale D §31 In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. BoT-14{And since, when the fires had been subdued}<Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued> or buried beneath the primeval hills{, there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth } <Of Valinor and the two Trees the Valar perceived that the Earth was dark, save for the glimmer of the innumerable stars which Varda had made in the ages unrecorded of the labours of Eä. Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps {[added: Illuin and Ormal]} for the lighting of Arda; and the Valar set them upon lofty pillars northward and southward in Middle-earth,> which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps … so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
Quote:
Here we would insert the picture with the editorial title ‘Grasses’, JRR Tolkien – Artist and Illustrator; picture no. 196
Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, … And beasts {[struck out: and birds]} came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, … for these things waited still their time in the bosom of {Palúrien}[Kementári]; but wealth there was of her imagining, … And there upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.> BoT-15 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.
Quote:
Here we would insert the picture ‘Floral Designs’, Pictures by JRR Tolkien; picture no. 45
And it came to pass that at last the Valar were content, …
Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aulë. …
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, …
Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the light of Illuin was dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew nought of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred>BoT-16<Ainulidale D §32{Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.> BoT-17 <MT; 2 The Valar therefore, when they became aware by the signs of evil that were seen upon Earth that Melkor had stolen back, sought in vain for him, though {Tulcas}[Tulkas] and Oromë went wide over Middle-earth even to the uttermost East. When they perceived that Melkor would now turn darkness and night to his purposes, as he had aforetime sought to wield flame, they were grieved; for BoT-18{it was a part of their design}[they saw now] that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end.[footnote: For it is indeed of the nature of Eä and the Great History that naught may stay unchanged in time, and things which do so, or appear to do so, or endeavour to remain so, become a weariness, and are loved no longer (or are at best unheeded).] For by Night the Children of Arda should know Day, and perceive and love Light; and yet Night should also in its kind be good and blessed, being a time of repose, and of inward thought; and a vision also of things high and fair that are beyond Arda, but are veiled by the splendour of Anar. But Melkor would make it a time of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.>
BoT-19 <Ainulidale D §32 And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren> BoT-20 <Ainulidale D §26; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood, and the malice that increased in him, that form was dark and terrible. … and the light of his eyes was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.> BoT-21 <AAm {But}And Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, … and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth.>
AINU-11 <Ainulidale D§27 Thus began the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults {we}[the Elves] know but little;{ for know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have}[has been] declared{ unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom{ we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were}[by whom they were] instructed{ by them}; but little would {they}[the Valar] ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee}[is told among the Eldar]: that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; … slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. BoT-22 <AAm And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.>
BoT-23< LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; … Thus {he}[Melkor[/u] escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.BoT-26 <LQ2[footnote to the text: The chief of his fortresses was at Utumno in the North of Middle-earth; but he made also a fortress and armoury not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea, to resist any assault from Aman. This was called Angband and was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor.]>>
Comments:
BoT-01: If my memory is correct this title was agreed upon in the chapter structure thread were we discussed the split. The alternative was ‘Of the Beginning of Days’ from Sil77.

BoT-02: We begin here with a long part from Myths Transformed. It serves nicely as introduction and is the latest source for all this time. As long as it fits to the flat Earth cosmology that we are working in it should be useable.

BoT-03: In this editing it can be seen that Ainulindalë was our basis text. Since what we skip at the beginning was replaced with the more elaborated and later account from MT.

BoT-04: The §§ 25-27 of the Ainulindalë are used in the corresponding chapter of TftE. The global decision to skip Ælfwine leads to the farther changes in the beginning of this passage.

BoT-05, BoT-06 and BoT-07: Here AAm does provide some more fitting and phrases and some more details.

BoT-08: MT has here the most specific detail that Melkor was driven into the void outside Arda.

BoT-09: I think it important to tell that Melkor all the time desired Arda.

BoT-10: We are back to our basis text now.

BoT-11: An addition from an more arcane source. But nonetheless worth considering.

BoT-12: The seven great Ones of Arda are replaced in the Valaquenta the nine Aratar the high Ones of Arda. Therefore the passage here is skipt.

AINU-09 and AINU-10: The famous ‘Yavanna’ as a tree passage. For the long winding discussion leading to this editing look into the Ainulidalë thread.

BoT-13: Here we skip the end of the Ainulindalë with its short description of the first Battle and the frame story element of Ælfwine bring Pengolodh to speak farther and jump the beginning of Pengolodh detailed description of the first War.

BoT-14: LQ has a bit more of details here.

BoT-15: The feast on Almaren is best descript in [/b]AAm[/b].

BoT-16: I added here the information what it meant that the Spring of Arda was marred.

BoT-17: The search for Melkor, when the signs of evil are seen is a new element introduced in MT. But for me at least it makes a lot of sense.

BoT-18: This Element is more difficult. It comes clearly from a round earth version. It would nonetheless be nice if we could hold it. At least it is clear in all later writings that stopping time form causing changes (as with the Rings of Power) was considered a sin (a deed against the design of Eru). The building of the Lamps might already have come near to such a deed.

BoT-19, BoT-20 and BoT-21: For this § Three sources are mixed. Choosing from each the most detailed part.

AINU-11: Back to the basis text. But we have to remove the frame story elements here.

BoT-22: This is based on the maps, where after the fall of the lamps the three different continents Aman, Middle-earth and the Land of the Sun are build out of the full symmetric single land mass around the See of Almaren.

BoT-23, BoT-24: This sounds a bit redundant, but I what is given as action after the darkness and confusion seems worth the mix.

BoT-25: The text here was based on an older version of the story where Melkor attacked at once and build Utumno after the battle. There fore editorial change.

BoT-26: The Info about Angband is missing from the other used sources. And with that we also give the information that from this time on Sauron was no longer a spy for Melkor among the Valar, but openly sides with Melkor.

I think that many of these changes were already discussed in the Ainulindalë thread, before we decided to move the first War to the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion. The chapter as it stands know as well interferes with the rest of the original first chapter Of Valinor and the two Trees. Therefore I will not waited for the discussion of this chapter to be finished but posted that chapter as soon as I find the time to prepair the draft.

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Old 08-23-2017, 10:36 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril Thoughts

Having read through the changes, I have only a few comments:

In the second paragraph, the [sic] is in reference to the grammatically incorrect "being." it should be "beings" plural.

In the next paragraph:

Quote:
for he knew that to that kingship Ilúvatar designed to give the highest royalty in Eä, and under the rule of that throne to bring forth the Children of God.
"Children of God" should be "Children of Eru" or "Children of the One." Tolkien nowhere else uses "God" to refer to Eru, and this feels extremely out of character.

BoT-15: This addition is fine, but:

Quote:
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, and because of the light of Illuin they did not perceive the shadow in the North that was cast from afar by Melkor; for he was grown dark as the Night of the Void. And it is sung that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Oromë, and Vána robed [her] in her flowers, and she danced before the Valar upon the green grass of Almaren.
The bolded part contradicts the earlier assertion in Ainulindale that flowers had not yet been brought forth from the mind of Yavanna. It is a shame to lose the reference to Vana, but i think it is best to remove it.

BoT-18: This is indeed a problematic section for several reasons. It references a change in light which has not yet happened (as everything is still lit in unchanging day, and the only ill that has happened is the corruption of Melkor) and thus feels out of place. If it were to be included it should be moved to after the fall of the lamps. Even so, I think it too closely tied to the round earth version to be included, as it references day and night, and the sun and moon, long before such things existed. Therefore, I think it is best and safest simply to remove it.

BoT-20: This addition is fine but:

Quote:
And he descended upon Earth in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar,
The opening phrase is problematic, as in this restructuring he is already in Arda, and thus cannot be said to descend into it. maybe change "descended" to "arose". so it becomes "And he arose upon Arda in power..."

AINU-11: This entire segment until BoT-23 does not fit here. It pretty clearly refers to the original war of the Valar in Arda, as Melkor is said just after this to flee in the darkness and confusion after the fall of the lamps. Thus this whole section should be moved earlier. I would have it replace BoT-05,as it fits in quite nicely.

Those were the only things I noticed, the rest was quite wonderful!
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:05 PM   #3
Findegil
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Arcus Calion worte:
Quote:
In the second paragraph, the [sic] is in reference to the grammatically incorrect "being." it should be "beings" plural.
Sure, the question is do we corret being -> beings. This singular for plural case is not in being due to our editing. It is inehrent in the source text from JRR Tolkien. I would say it is a slip of the pen and should be corrected.

Children of God -> Children of ?: I agree that God should be changed. But I think that Children of Ilúvatar is the most natural replacement, or was it your desire to keep a difference by taking Eru?

BoT-15: What about: '..., and Vána robed her in her {flowers}[signs of spring], ...'?

BoT-18: As said in my comment, I am also hesitating with this addition. Probably we can work it into the chapter of the making of the sun and the Moon. What about using such a reduced version here:
Quote:
[BoT-17[/b]<[b}MT; 2[/b] ... When they perceived that Melkor would now turn darkness BoT-18{and night }to his purposes, as he had aforetime sought to wield flame, they were grieved; for it was a part of their design that{ there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end.[footnote: For it is indeed of the nature of Eä and the Great History that naught may stay unchanged in time, and things which do so, or appear to do so, or endeavour to remain so, become a weariness, and are loved no longer (or are at best unheeded).] For by Night}[in the dark] the Children of Arda should {know Day, and }perceive and love Light{; and yet Night should also in its kind be good and blessed, being a time of repose, and of inward thought; and a vision also of things high and fair that are beyond Arda, but are veiled by the splendour of Anar}. But Melkor would make it a {time}[state] of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.>
BoT-20: Agreed.

AINU-11: I am not that sure, which conflict is here discribed. But nonetheless I agree to chift the §. But I would not repalce BoT-05 but arange the texts differntly:
Quote:
BoT-02 <MT, 2 ...
...
When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind>BoT-03 <Ainulidale D {§23 So began their ... to his own desires and Purposes}; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, … And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar{, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart}.>
AINU-11 <Ainulidale D §27 Thus began the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults {we}[the Elves] know but little;{ for know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have}[has been] declared{ unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom{ we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were}[by whom they were] instructed{ by them}; but little would {they}[the Valar] ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee:}Bot-04 <Ainulindale D §31 This} tale {I have heard also among}[was learned from] the lore masters in ages past. {For they tell us that the}The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand.>{that the}The Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; … slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm.>BoT-05 <AAm And Melkor wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in BoT-06{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.}BoT-07 <AAm , but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth} BoT-08 <MT; 2 {But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä)} and he was driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar.>{; and}Thereafter there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.> BoT-09<Ainulidale D §24 And {there was strife between Melkor and the Valar, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but} he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart.>
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:12 PM   #4
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I agree with all of those changes, they all look good.
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:34 PM   #5
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I found an addition worth considering while working on The Making of the Sun and the Moon ... chapter:
Quote:
... But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in BoT-06{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.}BoT-07 <AAm , but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth} BoT-08<MT; 2 {But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä)} and he was driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar.> BoT-08.5<MT; 2; Outline It was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas {(? originally Vala of the Sun) }defeated {him}Melkor in the First Battle.> {; and}Thereafter there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.> ...
The information that it was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas overcome Melkor is only given in the outline.

In addition I found a better place to use a later part of BoT-17. So we must skip it here:
Quote:
... the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.> BoT-17 <MT; 2 The Valar therefore, when they became aware by the signs of evil that were seen upon Earth that Melkor had stolen back, sought in vain for him, though {Tulcas}[Tulkas] and Oromë went wide over Middle-earth even to the uttermost East.>
BoT-19 <Ainulidale D §32 And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, ...

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Last edited by Findegil; 09-23-2017 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:13 PM   #6
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agreed.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:35 PM   #7
gandalf85
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I'm new to this forum so I apologize if I am misinterpreting how to read the draft. Here are some suggestions:

Quote:
… And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar{, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart}.>
BoT-04 <Ainulidale D §29 {And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would}[ was told by] the Valar{ tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming.{: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?
}{§30 And Pengoloð answered: … But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.
§31 This}But this tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters in ages past. {For they tell us that the}The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. BoT-05 <AAm {And Melkor}He wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.>
So the text will go as follows: "And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar. Little was told by the Valar to the Eldar of the days before their coming. But this tale was learned from the lore masters in ages past. The war began..." The second and third sentences seem out of place. The Valar have already arrived on what will become Arda and started shaping it. I propose removing these sentences.

Quote:
The information that it was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas overcome Melkor is only given in the outline.
Are there any other references to Tulkas using fire? I've always imagined Melkor's primary element as fire, and using fire to overcome him seems bizarre.

Quote:
BoT-13<Ainulidale D §31 In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. BoT-14{And since, when the fires had been subdued}<Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued> or buried beneath the primeval hills{, there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth } <Of Valinor and the two Trees the Valar perceived that the Earth was dark, save for the glimmer of the innumerable stars which Varda had made in the ages unrecorded of the labours of Eä.
This seems to contradict the paragraph starting "As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. …" Tolkien describes here how Illuvatar gifted the stars to Varda. She brought the stars with her to Eä, she didn't make them. Maybe just change this to "which Varda had brought".

Quote:
Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps {[added: Illuin and Ormal]} for the lighting of Arda
It seems like the names of the lamps are being removed here? Illuin is referenced by name later, so it makes sense to introduce their names here.
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:51 PM   #8
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril

Welcome gandalf! It's nice to have another person around besides me and Findegil! I think I've been driving him a little crazy haha

To answer your points in order:

1. The "their coming" refers to the Elves. So the days before the coming of the Elves. It is not redundant therefore.

2. However weird it feels for Tulkas to use fire to defeat Melkor, it is what Tolkien wrote in his latest version of the story (Myths Transformed). Who are we to question him?

3. Iluvatar gifted the light to Varda which she used to make the stars. She is always the star-maker, not merely a transporter.

4. The names were removed here because later on in the draft they are formally named in the body of the text:

Quote:
Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps {[added: Illuin and Ormal]} for the lighting of Arda; and the Valar set them upon lofty pillars northward and southward in Middle-earth,> which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, loftier far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named {[Foronte >]} Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named {[Hyarante >]} Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out ever the Earth so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
I hope you'll stick around! We could use the help =)

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:51 PM   #9
gandalf85
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Haha, I can definitely imagine you two driving each other crazy. I'm currently a PhD candidate in electrical engineering, so my free time oscillates wildly depending on when I have conferences/reports/presentations. However, this project is something I definitely think is worth the time put into it. I will try to contribute as much as I can.

1. Ahh, got it, I mistook who "their" was referring to.

2. I saw in the FAQ that preference is typically given to the most recent writing by Tolkien, but I feel like many of his later ideas are fundamentally problematic. For example, the idea that the Earth was always round. I'm sure you guys have debated this, are you sticking with the idea of the Earth first being flat then being reshaped after the drowning of Numenor? Either way, Tulkas using fire is a pretty minor point; I'm fine with it.

3. Got it, I guess I misinterpreted the text. I like that idea a lot more. The concept that Varda was simply a transporter seriously diminishes her status.

4. Ahh, I see. Yes, then I agree with removing the references to the names originally.

Random aside: I'm currently listening to the SilmFilm podcast by Corey Olsen (https://silmfilm.mythgard.org/). It's really interesting.
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:48 PM   #10
Findegil
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First of all welcome to this quite part of the Barrow-Downs gandalf85! The members of the project have always been thankful for any intrusion from outside, and as AcrusCalion has already mention additional opinions are very much needed at the time being. Feel yourself invited to post in any thread with the questions or suggestions that come to mind.

Since ArcusCalion answered most of your questions perfectly I only will add my to pence on Tulkas and the weilding of flame: I can understand your reservations. In the outline from Myths Transformed Tulkas is as well associated with the Sun being considered as the Valar of the Sun replacing Arien. But for me it makes perfect sense that Melkor in that war of the demiurgical powers is defeated especially in the field on which up to that point he only had specialised. Beside that Tulkas is descript as the 'good side of violence'. So we have to assume that in this war a lot of collateral damage occurred.

About 2: Yes, that is what the project decided to do a long time ago: a realy falt earth until the drowning of Numenor at which point the earth was reshaped to be round. But none of us was around at that time. At that time only jallanite voted for a round earth version. I would have supported him, but when I joined the decision was long done and as today the choice in such fundamentel decisions is either to join and take these desisions as they are, or not to join.

Two farther fundamental decision of this kind are: no frame story, that means all references to Eriol/Ælfwine have to be removed and no changes for reasons of 'style'.

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 09-27-2017 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:27 PM   #11
gandalf85
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Thanks for the welcome Findegil! I personally would have voted for the flat Earth which was reshaped after Numenor was drowned. I just think it's a very unique and interesting part of the mythology. I know Tolkien's final words on the matter were that he preferred the Earth to always be round, but his primary issue seems to be that a flat Earth and the creation of the sun/moon is "astronomically absurd" based on our current understanding of science. However, I think the story of the creation of the sun and the moon is absolutely beautiful and it ties into one of the major themes in Tolkien's works. Even though the trees die and there is sadness, from this tragedy comes hope in the form of the sun and the moon. Also, the entire universe is absurd based on our understanding of science, so I don't buy into that argument. I can justify disagreeing with Tolkien because he spent his entire life working under the flat Earth principle and then it wasn't until very near the end of his life that he decided to change it, not because it makes the story more beautiful (in fact it does the opposite) but on a "scientific" basis.

The frame story is a more complicated question in my mind. I could probably be persuaded either way.

Last edited by gandalf85; 09-26-2017 at 04:34 PM. Reason: not to double post
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:18 PM   #12
Findegil
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For all these three basic questions there is now no longer any choice for this project. But for all who would prefer a different option in these questions, it might be said that at least our finished texts would be a good to perfect starting point for any farther editing based on that different option.
lindil has always been a supporter of more stylistic uniformity and I think he had long cherished the hope, that once the first editing would be done in a second phase a stylistic smoothing would ocure.

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Old 10-09-2017, 06:21 PM   #13
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As I mentioned in the outline thread, I had written drafts for "Of the Beginning of Days" and "Of Aule and Yavanna" quite a while ago, but hadn't posted them because I was waiting until we formally turned to those sections. I will post them now, for comparison with the approach taken by Findegil and ArcusCalion. Hopefully this can spark a discussion of the differences in approach and give us more options to consider in how we assemble these sections.

Actually, I made two versions of the first chapter - one with and one without several additions from the BoLT. I was (and still am) uncertain whether it's appropriate to include those additions, but I'll post the version with them.

Note that this draft is for a single chapter including the "Of Valinor and the Two Trees" material.

I took AAm as my basic text. As usual, these conventions are used:

Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{to be deleted} = text that should be deleted, for a better readability I have in this file crossed the text out. The forum does not support crossed out text.
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

Quote:
BD-01{§1 At the Beginning Eru Ilúvatar made [Eä], the World that is, and the Valar entered into it, and they are the Powers of [Eä]. …

§2 Of these Manwë and Melkor were most puissant and were brethren. …

§3 Varda was Manwë's spouse from the beginning, but Aulë espoused Yavanna, her sister, in Ëa. …

§4 With these great powers came many other spirits of like kind but less might and authority; these are the Maiar, the Beautiful, the folk of the Valar. And with them are numbered also the Valarindi, the offspring of the Valar, their children begotten in Arda, yet of the race of the Ainur who were before the World; they are many and fair.}

BD-02{Of the Beginning of Time and its Reckoning
§5 Time indeed began with the beginning of Ëa, and in that beginning the Valar came into the World. …

§6 Now measured by the flowering of the Trees there were twelve hours in each Day of the Valar, and one thousand of such days the Valar took to be a year in their realm. …

§7 But as for the Years of the Trees and those that came after, …

§8 It is recorded by the Lore-masters …

§9 The shorter year of the Sun was so made because of the greater speed of all growth …

§10 It is computed by the lore-masters that the Valar came to the realm of Arda … Those were the Days of Bliss. In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began.}

{1 The First Year of the Valar in Arda}
§11 After ages of labour beyond knowledge or reckoning

§12 BD-03 But their labours were frustrated and turned aside from their design, for Melkor coveted the dominion of Arda, and he claimed the kingship and was at strife with Manwë{.}<Ainulindale D and for long Melkor had the upper hand.> For <MT VI /he was the greatest created power, the greatest power under Eru./ He was to make and devise and begin; and Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, and complete.> {And}But Melkor wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made. So passed many years of the Valar in strife.

{1500}
§13 BD-04{It came to pass that hearing afar of the war in Arda Tulkas the Strong came thither out of distant regions of [Eä] to the aid of Manwë. Then Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter, but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth, and forsook Arda, and there was a long peace.}<Ainulindale D But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. … And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after. >

§14 BD-05{Now the Valar began their labours anew; and when the lands and the waters were ordered the Valar had need of light, that the seeds of Yavanna's devising might grow and have life. Aulë therefore wrought two great lamps, as it were of silver and of gold and yet translucent, and Varda filled them with hallowed fire, to give light to the Earth. Illuin and Ormal they were named. {1900} And they were set upon mighty pillars as mountains in the midst of Arda, to the northward and the southward.} <LQ But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued the Valar perceived that the Earth was dark, save for the glimmer of the innumerable stars which Varda had made in the ages unrecorded of the labours of Eä. Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps Illuin and Ormal for the lighting of Arda; and the Valar set them upon lofty pillars northward and southward in Middle-earth,> <Ainulindale D and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.>

§15 BD-06{Then the Valar continued their labours until all the kingdom of Arda was ordered and made ready, and there was great growth of trees and herbs, and beasts and birds came forth and dwelt in the plains and in the waters, and the mountains were green and fair to look upon. And the Valar made their dwelling upon a green isle in the midst of a lake; and that lake was between Illuin and Ormal in the midmost of Arda; and there in the Isle of Almaren, because of the blending of the lights, all things were richest in growth and fairest of hue.} <Ainulindale D Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, … And there upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers.> But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.

§16 And it came to pass that at last the Valar were content …

§17 Now Melkor knew all that was done …

{3400}
§18 Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil …

§19 Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content …

§20 Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under the Earth, far from the light of Illuin; and he raised great mountains above his halls. That stronghold was after called Utumno the Deep-hidden; and though the Valar for a long time knew nothing of it, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred, and BD-07<Ainulindale D green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.> {living things became sick and rotted, or were corrupted to monstrous forms.}

{3450}
§21 Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, …

§22 In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him …

§23 Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and they had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the ancient world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. BD-LT-00 But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West{;}. {and since Melkor had returned to Middle-earth, and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and}

BD-LT-01 <LT Then said Manwë: [‘]Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.[’] So they fared over [Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues even to the Outer Seas. There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from Avathar and reared therewith> upon the shores of the Sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. BD-LT-02{And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height which was called Taniquetil,} <LT Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured {for seven ages} at Manwë’s bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil} the greatest mountain,> upon whose summit Manwë set his throne before the doors of the domed halls of Varda{.}, <LT and the world rumbled in the gloom and [Melkor] heard the noises of their labour.>BD-08 <LQ > Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and Elerrína Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.>

BD-LT-03<LTSeeing at length that these towered mightily between Valinor and the world the [Valar] drew breath; but Aulë and Tulkas fared abroad with many of their folk and brought back all they might of marbles and good stones, of iron and gold and silver and bronze and all manner of substances. These they heaped amid the plain, and straightway Aulë began to labour mightily. > {But}And behind the walls of the Pelóri the Valar established their mansions and their domain in that region which is called Valinor …

§24 Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in [Eä].

{3500}
§25 And it came to pass that, after Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, in the midst of the plain west of the Pelóri Aulë and his people built for them a fair city. That city they named Valimar the Blessed. <LT No metal and no stone, nor any wood of mighty trees was spared to {their}its raising. {Their}[Its] roofs were of gold and {their}[its] floors silver and their doors of polished bronze; {they were}[it was] lifted with spells and their stones were bound with magic.> And before its western gate there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

§26 Then Yavanna and Niënna came to that Green Mound; … But Niënna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears. BD-09<AAm* footnote For it is said that even in the Music Nienna took little part, but listened intent to all that she heard. Therefore she was rich in memory, and farsighted, perceiving how the themes should unfold in the Tale of Arda. But she had little mirth, and all her love was mingled with pity, grieving for the harms of the world and for the things that failed of fulfilment. So great was her ruth, it is said, that she could not endure to the end of the Music. Therefore she has not the hope of Manwë. He is more farseeing; but Pity is the heart of Nienna.> Then all the Valar were gathered together to hearken to the song of Yavanna; and the mound was in the midst of the Ring of Doom before the gates of Valmar, and the Valar sat round about in silence upon their thrones of council, and their folk were set before their feet. {And as the gods watched, behold! upon the mound there sprang two green saplings, and they grew and became fair and tall, and they came to blossom.}

§27 BD-10{Thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor, … and all that walked in that light were glad at heart.}<LQ From the earth there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the slow chanting of [Kementári]. Under her song two fair trees uprose and grew. … Telperion the one was called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelótë, and many names in song beside; but in the Sindarin tongue he was called Galathilion. Laurelin the other was called, and Malinalda, and Kulúrien, and many other names; but the Sindar named her Galadlóriel.>

§28 But the light that was spilled from the Trees endured long, …

§29 BD-11{Thus began the Days of the Bliss of Valinor, and thus began also the count of Time. … and one thousand of those Days was held to be a Year, for then the Trees would put forth a new branch and their stature would increase.} <LQ In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full and waned again to naught; and each awoke once more to life an hour before the other ceased to shine. … And each day of the {gods}[Valar] in Aman contained twelve hours, and ended with the second mingling of the lights, in which Laurelin was waning but Telperion was waxing.>

BD-12 <AAm Of the Beginning of Time and its Reckoning
§5 Time indeed began with the beginning of [Eä], and in that beginning the Valar came into the World. But the measurement which the Valar made of the ages of their labours is not known to any of the Children of Ilúvatar, until the first flowering of Telperion in Valinor. Thereafter the Valar counted time by the ages of Valinor, whereof each age contained one hundred of the Years of the Valar; but each such year was longer than are nine years under the Sun.

§6 Now measured by the flowering of the Trees there were twelve hours in each Day of the Valar, …

§7 But as for the Years of the Trees and those that came after, one such Year was longer than nine such years as now are. …

§8 It is recorded by the Lore-masters that this is not rightly as the Valar designed at the making and ordering of the Moon and Sun. …

§9 The shorter year of the Sun was so made because of the greater speed of all growth, and likewise or all change and withering, … This is drawn from the Yénonótië of Quennar{: quoth Pengoloð}.

§10 It is computed by the lore-masters that the Valar came to the realm of Arda, … Thereafter one thousand and four hundred and five and ninety Valian Years (or fourteen thousand of our years and three hundred and twenty-two) followed during which the Light of the Trees shone in Valinor. Those were the Days of Bliss.>

BD-13<Ainulindale D{Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor,}But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn. …

§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, …

§35 In the midst of the Blessed Realm Aulë dwelt, and laboured long, for in the making of all things in that land he had the chief part; and he wrought there many fair and shapely things both openly and in secret. … Though these last and all that deal with things that grow and bear fruit must look also to the spouse of Aulë, Yavanna Palúrien. BD-14{And Aulë we name the Friend of the Noldor, for of him they learned much in after days, and they are the most skilled of the Elves. And in their own fashion, according to their own gifts which Iluvatar gave to them, they added much to his teaching, delighting in tongues and alphabets and in the figures of broidery, of drawing, and of carving. And the Noldor it was who achieved the invention of gems, which were not in the world before their coming; and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.}

BD-LT-04<LT Separate from {these}[Valimar] and bordering upon the open vale was a great court, …

In this court were some of all the trees that after grew upon the earth, … and were gathered by [Kementári’s] maids for her feasting and her lord’s.>

§36 But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, which was the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the Seas. BD-LT-05<LT That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called ilwë that is above the white and grey. This web did Aulë and his wife contrive, but Varda spangled it with stars, and Manwë dwelt thereunder[.]> Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; … Elves and Men revere Manwë most of all the Valar, for he has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but ruleth all to peace. BD-15{The Vanyar he loved most of all the Elves, and of him they received song and poesy. For poesy is the delight of Manwë, and the song of words is his music.} Behold, the raiment of Manwë is blue, and blue is the fire of his eyes, and his sceptre is of sapphire which the Noldor wrought for him; and he is King of the world of {gods}[Valar] and elves and men, the vicegerent of Ilúvatar, and the chief defence against the evil of Melkor..

BD-LT-06<LT {Lórien}[Irmo] {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Lórien, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. … There too grew the poppies glowing redly in the dusk, and those the [Valar] called {fumellar} the flowers of sleep—and Lórien used them much in his enchantments.>

BD-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, and he dwelt amidmost of Val[i]mar. Most youthful is he and strong of limb and lusty, and for that is he named [Astaldo] who loveth games and twanging of bows and boxing, wrestling, running, and leaping, and songs that go with a swing and a toss of a well-filled cup.> BD-LT-08<LT His was a house of mirth and revelry; and it sprang high into the air with many storeys, and had a tower of bronze and pillars of copper in a wide arcade. … There danced she among her maidens as long as Laurelin was in bloom, for is she not greater in the dance than Vána herself?>

BD-LT-09<LT Ossë too had a great house, and dwelt therein whenso a conclave of the Valar was held or did he grow weary of the noise of the waves upon his seas. [Uinen] and the [Eärni] brought thousands of pearls for its building, and its floors were of sea-water, and its tapestries like the glint of the silver skins of fishes, and it was roofed with foam.>

§37 BD-LT-10 But Ulmo was alone, and he abode not in Valinor, nor ever came thither unless there was need for a great council, when <LT he would go as guest to the halls of Manwë>: he dwelt from the beginning of Arda in the Outer Ocean, and still he dwells there. …

§34 And in that time of dark Yavanna also was unwilling utterly to forsake the outer lands …

BD-LT-11{And}[Now] Oromë tamer of beasts <LT {Now Oromë} had a vast domain and it was beloved by him{, and no less by Palúrien his mother.} Behold, the groves of trees {they} planted upon the plain of Valinor and even upon the foothills of the mountains have no compare on Earth. … Much indeed as he loves those realms yet> he would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and upon his tireless steed with shining mane and golden hoof, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor. Then in the twilight of the world he would sound his great horn, the Valaróma, upon the plains of Arda, whereat the mountains echoed and the shadows of Utumno fled away, and even the heart of Melkor himself was shaken, foreboding the wrath to come. <LT But in Valmar his halls are wide and low, and skins and fells of great richness and price are strewn there without end upon the floor or hung upon the walls, and spears and bows and knives thereto. … Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring.>

BD-LT-12<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that Námo and [Vairë] his wife {of tears} might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh [Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the [Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to [Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat Námo{, and he called that hall with his own name Vê}. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of Silpion: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain—and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while. There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again {be born into their children}[take body], and go forth to laugh and sing again.>

BD-LT-13<LT {for she}[But Nienna] laboured {rather} at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[Mandos]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui.} Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.>

BD-16Now all is said {to thee, Ælfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. {Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.} For Elves and Men are the Children; and since they understood not fully that theme by which they entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. … The dealings of the Ainur have been mostly with the Elves, for Ilúvatar made the Eldar more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature, whereas to Men he gave strange gifts.

§38 For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. …

§39 Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein …

§40 But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; …
I apparently made no explanatory comments (that I can find) on the Lost Tales additions, but I have these notes on the other changes:

BD-01: I removed the first four sections as this is material covered more fully in the Valaquenta.

BD-02: The section on the Reckoning of Time (sections 5-10) should I think be moved to after the Two Trees are made.

BD-03: This is an attempt (probably not a very good one) to introduce material concerning Melkor from text VI in Myths Transformed. It possibly should go in the Valaquenta instead, if not be dropped entirely.

BD-04: The Ainulindale gives a more detailed account here than AAm.

BD-05, -06, -07: For most of section 14 LQ seems to give the fullest account, but for section 15 the Ainulindale does.

BD-08: Here I add the names of Taniquetil given in LQ (following what CT did in the ’77).

BD-09: Added the footnote into the text.

BD-10: LQ gives the fuller description of the Trees.

BD-11: Here it’s a little harder to judge, but I think that the LQ account of the waxing and waning of the Trees is the better one to use.

BD-12: Here I add the ‘Reckoning of Time’ material back in.

BD-13: The closing portions of Pengolodh’s addendum to the Ainulindale seem to me to work well here (more or less where CT puts them in the ’77), though this is not the only possible placement.

BD-14: This passage was bracketed by Tolkien, presumably for exclusion. If we do decide to use it for some reason, we must at the very least remove the reference to the Noldor ‘inventing’ gems (the later story is that gems already existed in the Earth but the Noldor learned how to make them themselves.)

BD-15: Also bracketed for exclusion by Tolkien (though I’m mystified as to why).

BD-16: Removal of Aelfwine.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:44 AM   #14
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While for the chapter ‘Concerning the Dwarves the Ents and Eagles’ I think a matching of our editing should be helpful, I am in this chapter sure thst it would lead to more confusion and not less. Therefore (and because it is a big bunch of work) I shuned back from makeing such a comparision. I also do not see much sense in a detailed critisem on Aiwendils editing. If we decised to take his draft as a basis for farther work, such critisim is in order, but is that what we will do?

Anyhow I will give only a few remarks that come to mind while reading through the draft:

BD-12: I was under the impression that the project once discussed about the relation between Yen, Valian Year and Year of the Sun. And from my memory of that discussion I think the result was that we should not address this complex at all. The reason if remembered rightly was the hasitation of JRR Tolkien about the greatly expanded time frame during the flight of the Noldor. Since you toke this § into your draft, what did you remember as out come of the discussion?

You did not us any of the Myths Transformed text, so I think we agreed on using such when we discussed the first part of the chapter while working on the Valaquenta.

BD-16: This last part of the Ainulindalë we left in that chapter. And I think it fits there better then here, even so nothing of what happened in the age before this revelation of Iluvatar toke place is told in our version.

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Old 10-10-2017, 01:08 PM   #15
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Yeah I agree with Findegil, we went through long discussions about many of these points and additions and arrived at conclusions, so to start all over again seems to me to be pointless.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
While for the chapter ‘Concerning the Dwarves the Ents and Eagles’ I think a matching of our editing should be helpful, I am in this chapter sure thst it would lead to more confusion and not less.
Yes, it seems that for this chapter we took quite different approaches.

Quote:
BD-12: I was under the impression that the project once discussed about the relation between Yen, Valian Year and Year of the Sun. And from my memory of that discussion I think the result was that we should not address this complex at all. The reason if remembered rightly was the hasitation of JRR Tolkien about the greatly expanded time frame during the flight of the Noldor. Since you toke this § into your draft, what did you remember as out come of the discussion?
Hmm, I don't recall that discussion, but I will search for it.

Quote:
You did not us any of the Myths Transformed text, so I think we agreed on using such when we discussed the first part of the chapter while working on the Valaquenta.
I did make one addition from Myths Transformed, but at the time I think I deemed most of the Myths Transformed texts not really useable. But I suspect I may have been wrong in thinking that.

Quote:
BD-16: This last part of the Ainulindalë we left in that chapter. And I think it fits there better then here, even so nothing of what happened in the age before this revelation of Iluvatar toke place is told in our version.
I'm not sure why I left that section out. Yes, I agree that it should probably go here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcusCalion
Yeah I agree with Findegil, we went through long discussions about many of these points and additions and arrived at conclusions, so to start all over again seems to me to be pointless.
Not to sound too flippant, but as I wasn't involved in these discussions, I personally don't consider anything settled or concluded yet!

I'm not necessarily proposing that we adopt my version as the framework. However, I think the differences are instructive - they show, for one thing, that radically different approaches are possible. And I think this is important. When one person presents a text for discussion, it's easy to, without meaning to, get locked into certain choices that were tacitly or unconsciously made in preparing that text, and to assume that those choices were inevitable.

In other words, I think it's worth taking a step back and considering, in broad strokes, the structure of the chapter, and which sources to base that structure on.

I don't mean, by any of this, to undermine or disparage the work you and Findegil have done lately - on the contrary, I think it's great. But, as Findegil can tell you, I like to proceed with great caution and deliberation!

So, I'm going to try to find some time in the next few days to examine Findegil's draft in detail, compare it to mine, and hopefully come up with some insights into the structure of the chapter. I do think that we should not take that structure for granted, and I don't think we should be unwilling to consider other alternatives.

As a general comment on content (as opposed to structure), it appears that Findegil has obviously adopted a lot more of Myths Transformed than I did, whereas I have adopted quite a bit from the Lost Tales that I don't see in Findegil's draft. I'm inclined to be cautious on both counts, but I do think that Findegil has identified several good passages to use from MT. Do the two of you have any thoughts on the Lost Tales sections I introduced? I was quite uncertain about them when I wrote this draft, and could probably be persuaded that they shouldn't be used, but I am rather fond of them.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-10-2017 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:54 AM   #17
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BD-03: Your addition from MT, Text VI is a great in it self. I always had in mind that we had such a passage that clearly identifies Melkor and Manwë with special thoughts of Eru. As we are told that Ainur were the of prings of Eru’s thoughts these is a perfect exemplification. But as you mentioned already we might better use it in the Valaquenta. What do you think of this placement and editing:
Quote:
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. Vala-07.2 <MT, Text VI Melkor Vala-07.21{must be made}[was] far more powerfull in original nature Vala-07.22{ (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth')}. The greatest power under Eru Vala-07.23{(sc.} ; he was the greatest created power{)}.[Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth{ (p. 322)}: 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.] Vala-07.24{(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)} >But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...
BD-16: You did not leave it out, you included it here. But we agreed when editing Ainulidalë to use it at the end of that ‘chapter’. Thefore I think we have to execlude it here.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Not to sound too flippant, but as I wasn't involved in these discussions, I personally don't consider anything settled or concluded yet!
As you know well, Aiwendil, no topic in this project was ever fully closed. When ever new thoughts or ideas came up we discussed them, even in chapters that were considered finished. In this case the chapter is explicitly in the state of ‘work in progress’. So you are absolutely right, that nothing is settled or concluded yet.

I agree on your approach to look from a helicopter view on the structure to avoid probably unconscious pre-elections.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
So, I'm going to try to find some time in the next few days to examine Findegil's draft in detail, compare it to mine, and hopefully come up with some insights into the structure of the chapter. I do think that we should not take that structure for granted, and I don't think we should be unwilling to consider other alternatives.
I fully agree to this. Take your time and come back with your input when you have made that comparision.

About the LT additions: I don’t think that your impression is fully correct:

BD-LT-01 / VT-EX-02: The placement and editing seems a bit different, but the contenet is the same.

BD-LT-02 and your next add about Melkor hearing the noise of their labor and BD-LT-03 are all included in what I called VT-EX-03.

VT-EX-04: This addition from LT you did not use.

Your addition from LT in §25 of AAm and BD-LT-04, BD-LT-05, BD-LT-06, BD-LT-07, BD-LT-08, BD-LT-09 and BD-LT-11, BD-LT-12 and BD-LT-13 are all included in the longe addition that I took that starts with VT-EX-05 and end at VT-EX-15.

BD-LT-10: This I missed probably. But I agree that it should be included. And like your editing with the fitting surrounding. But for the time being I will restrain from putting into my version as long as the question of the structure is not clear.

So you see that at least concerning the LT additions we are not that fare sundered.

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Old 10-11-2017, 12:18 PM   #18
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BD-03: I agree, this is better in the Valaquenta. I'm a little concerned about the stylistic dissonance between the Valaquenta and the more informal MT text, but perhaps we should discuss that in the Valaquenta thread.

BD-16: Right. Sorry, I did not look carefully enough at my own text, nor recall our previous discussions, before posting it!

Quote:
About the LT additions: I don’t think that your impression is fully correct
Yes, I hadn't looked carefully enough through your draft either, and missed much of the Lost Tales material you used. To be honest, I still have some reservations about the use of this Lost Tales material - namely, I wonder if the rather more "pagan" descriptions of the Valar and their dwellings might be considered implicitly rejected by Tolkien. But I think that in the end, I lean toward using them.

All right, I will find some time to study the texts more carefully, and then give you my thoughts.
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:25 PM   #19
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I'm working on a long post comparing our versions, discussing the general approach, and then getting into some particulars. This should be done soon, but in the meantime I thought I'd just mention a few typos and (I believe) some missing editorial marks that I noticed in Findegil's text.

Quote:
Here begins the Silmarillion or history of the Silmarills
Typo: “Silmarills” for “Silmarils”.

Quote:
BoT-11 <Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17 <The fanar <taken from above [or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have had a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to have assumed an awe-inspiring heigth.>
Typo: “heigth” for “height”.


Quote:
BoT-23< LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar. Thus {he}Melkor escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.
There appears to be an editorial mark missing here, where the AAm excerpt ends and we return to LQ. It should be:

Quote:
BoT-23< LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.> Thus {he}[Melkor[/u] escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.
Of Valinor and the Two Trees:

Quote:
}{§12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making.
}Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth.{ Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West.}
I think there is again a missing editorial mark here, showing that we switch to AAm:

Quote:
}{§12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making.
}<AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth.{ Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West.}>
A more substantive post will follow, hopefully tomorrow!
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:14 PM   #20
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I apologize, re-reading my comment it sounds very brusque and rude. Please forgive my curtness Aiwendil! I was just somewhat confused that it felt like you were rejecting our version, which was obviously not the case at all. So sorry about that
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:01 AM   #21
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No need to apologize; I didn't think you were being rude at all!
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #22
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Apologies in advance for the length of this.

I am going to first present my synopses of both my text and Findegil's. I indicate here only the major sections, not noting smaller additions from other sources. The idea is just to have the basic structure of each text visible in a digestible form for comparison.

Findegil's text:

Quote:
MT2:
Valar begin labour on Arda; other Ainur go elsewhere
Valar labour without Melkor
Melkor seeks for Arda
Melkor finds Arda and desires to undo it

Ainulindale:
Melkor claims Arda; Manwe denies it
Strife between Melkor and Valar
First war between Valar and Melkor
Tulkas comes to aid of Valar

MT2:
Melkor driven out into Void outside Arda

Ainulindale:
Valar take shape and hue
Valar bring order to seas, lands, mountains; Yavanna plants seeds

LQ:
Earth is dark

Ainulindale:
Valar make Lamps
Plants and beasts grow
Home of Valar on Isle of Almaren

AAm:
Valar hold feast and Melkor returns
Melkor delves Utumno

Ainulindale:
Corruption of plants and animals

MT2
Valar become aware of corruption and seek for Melkor

Ainulindale:
Melkor reveals himself and takes physical form

AAm:
Melkor comes suddenly forth to war and strikes the first blow
Melkor destroys Lamps
Shape and symmetry of Arda marred

LQ:
Valar cannot overcome Melkor because his strength has increased and he has servants

AAm:
Melkor escapes to Utumno ere Tulkas can overtake him
Valar cannot overcome Melkor because they must restrain tumults of the earth

LQ:
Melkor escapes from the wrath of the Valar and had already built Utumno
Melkor builds Angband

---

AAm:
Dwelling on Almaren utterly destroyed

LQ:
Valar depart into west and build Valinor

LT:
Valar find a wide land beyond Avathar
Valar raise mountains

LQ:
Valar gather light and fair things

LT:
Valar gather materials in Valinor
Valar gather light in great cauldrons
Building of Valinor and descriptions of dwellings

AAm:
After Valinor was built, Valar had built Valimar
Yavanna sings at Green Mound

LQ:
Two Trees come forth

LT:
Telperion grows
Laurelin grows

AAm:
Two Trees put forth light

LT:
Valar name the trees Laurelin and Silpion

LQ:
Names of the Trees
Waxing and waning of the Trees; reckoning of hours

LT:
Yavanna tells the Valar about waxing and waning of Trees
Yavanna instructs them to gather the light from the Trees in cauldrons and water them thence
Valar appoint Arie and Silmo to water Trees

LQ:
Varda lets hoard the light from the Trees in great wells

AAm:
Maiar draw light from wells and bring it to frith and field

MT 2
Varda had retained some of the Primeval Light
Varda uses this Light to water Trees (editorial addition?)

AAm:
Valinor becomes more beautiful than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda
Valar are joyful and leave Middle-earth in twilight

Ainulindale:
Melkor walks abroad in Middle-earth
Valar dwell in bliss in Valinor and seldom come to Middle-earth

MT
Valar go to Valinor more often and stay longer
Valar are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his servants

Ainulindale:
Locations of Aule’s, Manwe’s, Ulmo’s dwellings; account of their activities as well as Varda’s, Yavanna’s, and Orome’s
Aiwendil's text:

Quote:
AAm:
After ages of labour, Valar enter Arda
Valar labour in Arda
Melkor claims kingship and causes strife

Ainulindale:
Tulkas comes to aid of Valar
Melkor flees and broods in the outer darkness

LQ:
Earth is dark
Valar make lamps

Ainulindale:
Plants and beasts grow
Home of Valar on Isle of Almaren

AAm:
Valar hold feast and Melkor returns
Melkor delves Utumno

Ainulindale:
Corruption of plants and animals

AAm:
Valar perceive corruption and seek for Melkor’s hiding place
Melkor comes suddenly forth to war and strikes the first blow
Melkor destroys Lamps
Shape and symmetry of Arda marred
Melkor escapes to Utumno ere Tulkas can overtake him
Valar cannot overcome Melkor because they must restrain tumults of the earth
(---)
Dwelling on Almaren utterly destroyed
Valar go west to Aman

LT:
Valar find a wide land beyond Avathar
Valar raise mountains
Valar gather materials in Valinor

AAm:
Aule builds mansions of the Valar
Valar gather great store of light and fair things
Valinor becomes more beautiful than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda
Valar are joyful and leave Middle-earth in twilight
After Valinor was built, Valar build Valimar
Yavanna sings at Green Mound

LQ:
Trees grow
Names of the Trees

AAm:
Varda gathers light from Trees and stores it in great vats
Maiar draw light from wells and bring it to frith and field

LQ:
Waxing and waning of the Trees; reckoning of hours

AAm:
Reckoning of time/years

Ainulindale:
Melkor walks abroad in Middle-earth
Valar dwell in bliss in Valinor and seldom come to Middle-earth

Ainulindale: with LT additions:
Description of Valar’s dwellings and activities

Ainulindale:
Gift of Eru to Men
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:41 PM   #23
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Obviously, the big difference here is that Findegil’s text is assembled in a more piece-meal fashion from Ainulindale, AAm, LQ, MT, and LT, whereas mine is based almost entirely on AAm, with fewer additions from the other sources. One might say that Findegil takes a maximalist approach, erring on the side of including passages from most sources when in doubt, while I take a minimalist approach, only breaking up Tolkien’s text when there seems to be a very good reason. As I reviewed both our texts, I became increasingly convinced that what would be best is something somewhere in between those extremes.

The danger in my approach is of course that we leave out material that could profitably be included, and I think my text does suffer from this. As I think both Findegil and ArcusCalion tend toward the “maximalist” side of things, I trust I don’t have to argue much to persuade you of this fact!

On the other hand, there are a few dangers I see in taking Findegil’s approach, and I think his text also suffers as a result in some ways. First of all, there is the simple fact that chopping up Tolkien’s text into relatively small pieces disturbs it from a literary point of view, breaking up the rhythm of Tolkien’s language and the unity of his writing. This is of course unavoidable in our project, and we have explicitly decided that we are not going to trouble ourselves too much about stylistic descrepancies. Yet at the same time, I think that we ought to be careful not to hurt the text in this way unless necessary.

Beyond this general point, I think the problems that a lot of chopping up of the texts can lead to are mainly redundancies and contradictions. As we saw in some of the later chapters, it’s surprisingly easy for redundancies to creep in when one assembles a text from multiple sources. I think there are several places where this happens in Findegil’s texts of chapters 1 and 2. It’s also possible to inadvertantly introduce contradictions without noticing it, if subtly different ideas lay behind the different texts.

As a bit of an aside, in reviewing these texts I find myself getting a bit confused about the relative dating (and therefore priority) of the Ainulindale, AAm, and LQ. Of the AAm manuscript, Christopher Tolkien writes:

Quote:
The work undoubtedly belongs with the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3), and it stands in close relationship to the revision at that time of the corresponding parts of the Quenta Silmarillion (V.204-43, referred to throughout as QS), the text that had been abandoned at the end of 1937. Equally clearly it followed the last text of the Ainulindalë (D).
So at least we can say that AAm and LQ1 have priority over Ainulindale, but it is not clear whether AAm or LQ1 is later. For the material up to the “Finwë and Miriel” chapter, there is no “second phase” LQ2 text, but there is a “second phase” AAm typescript with emendations. Based on this, I’m inclined to say that AAm has priority up to “Finwë and Miriel” (exclusive), and LQ2 has priority from there through the Flight of the Noldor. (We may have discussed this elsewhere, but I can’t recall).

All right, having said all that, let me try to get into the texts a little more closely and discuss some issues I see.

Myths Transformed II

Findegil’s text makes heavy use, in the beginning of chapter 1, of the narrative from MT II. This narrative was Tolkien’s first (and I think only?) attempt to put into ‘literary’ form the story of the beginning of Arda with the new cosmology (round earth, sun and moon existing from the beginning). We have decided, of course, to reject the new cosmology, but Findegil’s text presupposes that we can still use some of the narrative.

I’m uncertain as to whether this is usable. As Christopher Tolkien discusses here and in his discussion of the ‘Athrabeth’, the new cosmology conceives of Arda as being equivalent to the solar system, with the sun a star, and innumerable other stars elsewhere in the vast reaches of Eä. And it seems to me that, even if in the first few paragraphs there is no explicit mention of the round earth or of the sun, this conception underlies the narrative. In MT II and in Findegil’s text, while the Valar locate Arda and begin their labour there, other Ainur go out into other parts of Eä; this is an idea not present in the earlier texts, and I think it goes hand in hand with the idea that Arda, our solar system, is just the realm of one star among countless others. Similarly, the text here says that Melkor could have ruled in other parts of Eä, but that he instead sought for Arda. In the earlier cosmology, there is no suggestion that Arda could be difficult for the Ainur to locate once they entered Eä, nor that there were other places (other solar systems, I take this to mean) where Melkor could have set up shop on his own. In short, I can see a good argument that the opening of this narrative is inextricably bound up with the new cosmology - and that therefore we must reject the whole narrative, not just the parts that explicitly mention a round earth or the sun.

There is one addition from MT II in Findegil’s text of chapter 1 that does not appear to have any cosmological implications, and that is BoT-17. This could stand even if we accept the argument above. However, I’m not sure whether this is true as Findegil says:

Quote:
BoT-17: The search for Melkor, when the signs of evil are seen is a new element introduced in MT. But for me at least it makes a lot of sense.
In AAm, under 3450, we have:

Quote:
§21 Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding-place.
So I don’t see this particular addition from MT adding much.


The First War and Spring of Arda

For these early parts, aside from the question of MT II, Findegil’s text and mine differ mainly in that Findegil takes a little bit more from LQ and Ainulindale, while I often take the equivalent statements from AAm. But these are pretty minor differences, and I don’t see any particular problems with Findegil’s text here. It couldn’t hurt to take another look at the bits where I used AAm and Findegil used other sources, and decide for each one which source is best for that spot - but this is minor detail-work, not a big issue.

BoT-19, -20, -21

Here we have in Findegil’s text two passages from the Ainulindale followed by one from AAm. There are two things I question here. First (and perhaps this is just my failure to understand something), Findegil has in BoT-20 taken a passage about Melkor taking physical form that in the Ainulindale comes much earlier, at the beginning of the first battle between Melkor and the Valar. Why was this moved here? I assume it’s because there is a canonical statement post-dating the Ainulindale somewhere that this is when Melkor took physical form, in which case that’s fine. Otherwise it should be moved back to where it was.

The other point is that I see a redundancy here between BoT-19 (from the Ainulindale) and BoT-21 (from AAm). We have:

Quote:
And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren
And then:

Quote:
}And Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war
So we state twice that Melkor goes to war against the Valar. I would propose instead using the whole of §21 of AAm here, as I did in my version, instead of BoT-17 through -21:

Quote:
Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding-place. But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
Assuming there is justification for moving Melkor’s assumption of physical form here, we can reintroduce BoT-20 like so:

Quote:
Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding-place. BoT-20 <Ainulindale [A]nd {he also} Melkor took visible form, but because of his mood, and the malice that increased in him, that form was dark and terrible. And he {descended}[arose] upon Earth in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with fire and smoke; and the light of his eyes was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.> {But Melkor} And trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, he came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
Note that I have removed the “also” from the Ainulindale passage, which there referred back to the other Valar taking physical form.

In this same section is BoT-22, of which Findegil wrote:

Quote:
BoT-22: This is based on the maps, where after the fall of the lamps the three different continents Aman, Middle-earth and the Land of the Sun are build out of the full symmetric single land mass around the See of Almaren.
I think I’m missing something here. I don’t see any change here from what’s in AAm, and I don’t understand why there is an editorial marking here at all.

BoT-23, -24

Here Findegil already notes that he finds a bit of redundancy between LQ and AAm, and I agree. But I think the main problem here is a slight contradiction between LQ (BoT-23) and AAm (BoT-24). LQ and AAm seem to give different explanations as to why Melkor escaped from the Valar at this time. LQ attributes it to his increased strength and the fact that he now has many servants; AAm, on the other hand says that it is because the Valar were busy restraining the tumults he had caused. Again, here I propose eliminating the addition from LQ and using AAm as a whole:

Quote:
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling.
BoT-25, -26

Findegil’s text returns to LQ at the end of this paragraph for:

Quote:
Thus {he}[Melkor[/u] escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.
To my mind, this is rather tortured and unnecessary. We have already just said that Melkor escaped and that he came to Utumno, and we have already described Utumno’s building earlier. I don’t see any need for this sentence in itself. However, there is something valuable in BoT-26, where Findegil incorporates the footnote about Angband being built and commanded by Sauron. I agree that this should be stated somewhere, but since the reason given for his building Angband is to guard against attack from Aman, I think we must add this later, after the Valar have gone west and established their home in Valinor. So I would just end this paragraph (and chapter) with:

Quote:
and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.
Building of Valinor

Let’s move on to the part that Findegil breaks off as chapter 2, “Of Valinor and the Two Trees”. Both Findegil and I begin this with AAm and then insert some material from LT. However, Findegil also inserts a bit from LQ in VT-LQ-01, and I think this leads to another redundancy:

Quote:
VT-LQ-01 <LQ2But the {Gods}[Valar] removed into the uttermost West and there made their home and fortified it; and they built many mansions in that land upon the borders of the World, which is called Valinor. And Valinor was bounded upon the hither side by the Great Sea of the West
The problem is that this is then followed by an excerpt from LT that tells everything here from “and there made their home” onward at much greater length. In my version, I instead take this statement from AAm:

Quote:
Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the ancient world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night.
This tells only that they have gone west to Aman, but does not tell of the building of their home, because that is about to be told in the LT passages.

We both follow this with excerpts from LT that tell of the Valar finding a wide land beyond Avathar and raising the mountains, so this is fine.

I find another redundancy in Findegil’s text here, though:

Quote:
§13 Now in that guarded land the Valar gathered all light and all fair things;
This is from LQ, and it is followed by a vivid account from LT of the Valar gathering materials to Valinor and then gathering light and putting it in cauldrons. Again, I think the shorter statement from LQ is mostly redundant with what is about to be told from LT, except perhaps for the “fair things” that they gather.

LT Descriptions of Valars’ Dwellings

Findegil and I both include excerpts from LT giving details about the dwellings of the Valar, but we differ in where we place them - Findegil places them just after the gathering of light and materials, while I place them much later, incorporating them into the passage in AAm that describes (in far less detail) the places where some of the Valar dwell. I think Findegil’s placement of them leads to another redundancy, because that passage from AAm (at the end of this chapter) now seems to repeat some things that were told earlier. I also think the LT descriptions of the dwellings fit rather well in that AAm passage. So in this case, I prefer my placement of those passages.


Building of Valimar

In AAm, the building of Valimar, the city, is apparently distinct from the building of the mansions of the Valar. In fact, this is stated rather explicitly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”AAm”
And it came to pass that, after Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, the Valar built their city in the midst of the plain beyond the Pelóri.
In Findegil’s text, we have the LT account of the building of the mansions, which includes the building of Valimar, and then a (somewhat tortured, I fear) transposition of this AAm passage into the pluperfect:

Quote:
And it came to pass that, after Valinor was fullwrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, that the Valar had built their city in the midst of the plain beyond the Pelori.
I think, instead, we must follow the sequence of events in AAm: the mansions are built (though, as I said earlier, I’d prefer to leave their descriptions for the end of the chapter), then Valimar is built. We can break up the LT material as I did, moving the description of the building of the city to this point.

It’s also worth noting that in AAm, the statements about Valinor becoming more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda, and about Middle-earth being left in twilight, occur just before the building of Valimar. Findegil’s text moves these to after the creation of the Trees, but I’m not sure I see the justification or necessity for that.

Growth of the Trees

Here Findegil includes a description of the Trees’ growth from LT which I did not include. I think that this is a good addition. There may be some minor details of the descriptions to look into more carefully, but to first order I think that Findegil’s text for this part (up to and including VT-EX-27) is good.

Names of the Trees

I agree that it’s nice to have the detail of Yavanna and Lórien naming the Trees, but as Findegil’s text stands, there is a slight feeling of redundancy between this passage from LT and the following passage from LQ, which gives the many names of the Trees. This can perhaps be fixed by some light editing.

In the LT, the Valar name each Tree immediately after it grows, rather than naming them both after they both have grown. If we followed that, I think the editing of the text of the LT passages would be a little less tortured. It’s true that in the earlier story, one Tree grew entirely first, before the other had even sprouted, whereas in the later story they seem to be growing a bit at the same time - but I still think there’s room for the Valar to name Telperion before we move on to the description of Laurelin’s growth; then they can praise Yavanna’s work and name Laurelin once it is done growing.

A bit of an aside: in the later texts, I think “Telperion” is the more usual name rather than “Silpion”; should that not be the name given by Lórien? I don’t recall the history of the names of the Trees all that well, though, so maybe not.

Waxing and Waning of the Trees

I find another slight redundancy in Findegil’s text here, where a passage from LQ describing the daily waxing and waning of the Trees is followed by a passage from LT wherein Yavanna tells the other Valar about the waxing and waning of the Trees. More problematically, Yavanna’s speech to the Valar here assumes that Laurelin has just waned and Silpion is waxing - but that is because in LT Laurelin was the elder Tree. In our story, Telperion waxes first.

Gathering of the Light

As far as I can see we have the following stories about the light of the Trees:

LT: Ulmo retrieves light from ‘blazing lakes’ and ‘pools of brilliance’ (presumably left after the destruction of the Lamps) and deposits it in the two great cauldrons Kulullin and Silindrin. The Trees are made by watering the ground with this light. After the Trees grow, Yavanna instructs the Valar to water each Tree with light from its respective cauldron every twelve hours when it wanes. Urwen and Silmo are tasked with this watering.

LQ: The Valar gather all light to Valinor. The Trees are made. Varda lets hoard the dews from the Trees in great vats, like shining lakes.

AAm: The Valar gather great store of light in Valinor. The Trees are made. Varda gathers the light that spills from them in great vats near the mound and the Maiar draw light from these vats and bring it to the more distant parts of Valinor, so that all the land will gain nourishment from it.

MT II: (There were no Lamps. Melkor disarrays the sun and drives Tilion out of the moon.) Varda has a store of Primeval Light. The Two Trees are made (presumably with this light).

In my opinion, Findegil’s draft includes too much from all these sources, so that they tend to repeat and contradict each other. For instance, in no text by Tolkien are there both great cauldrons from which the Trees are watered with light and great vats in which Varda gathers the light that is spilled. On the contrary, it seems to me that the vats of Varda replaced the cauldrons. Further, the “Primeval Light” mentioned in MT seems to me to replace the light (from the Lamps) that was gathered to Valinor after the destruction of Almaren, and I don’t think it has any place in our version of the story.

Reckoning of Time

I included in my text the sections from AAm on the Valian year. Findegil mentioned that he recalled us discussing the Valian year at some point and deciding not to include any specifics on it, but I cannot find this discussion.

The issue, I suppose, is the later idea appearing in “The Shibboleth of Fëanor” of a Valian year being equivalent to 144 solar years, rather than the roughly 9.58 solar years of AAm. However, I have always been under the impression that this later version of the Valian year was adopted because of the revised cosmology. Even if that weren’t the case, I think an argument could be made that it is a proposed change that we cannot adopt, because it seriously distorts the pre-sun chronology. So I lean toward including this AAm passage.


Joy in Valinor and Twilight in Middle-earth

After telling of the Trees, Findegil’s text has passages from AAm, Ainulindale, and MT that seem to me to repeat and/or contradict each other. From AAm we have the statement that Valinor becomes more beautiful than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda and that the Valar are joyful and leave Middle-earth in twilight (this has been moved here from its place in AAm, where it is before the making of the Trees). Then from Ainulindale we have a passage telling that Melkor walks abroad in Middle-earth and that the Valar dwell in bliss and seldom come to Middle-earth. And then we have from MT a section of outlining that says that the Valar go more and more often to Valinor and that then they are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his servants. In my opinion, the AAm and Ainulindale passages are mostly redundant, and the MT passage contradicts them. In AAm and Ainulindale, Melkor does not drive them out of Middle-earth. Moreover, in the MT outline, it seems as if the Valar do not right away establish Valinor as their permanent home; they only “go there” sometimes, but that becomes more and more often.

My preference here would be to leave out the MT excerpt and move the AAm passage but move it back to its original location (unless there’s a good reason to put it here). Then I suppose we can retain the full Ainulindale passage - even if it does slightly repeat the AAm passage, they are now far enough apart that it is not so obvious.

Here, where from the Ainulindale we tell of Melkor walking abroad in Middle-earth, is where I would put the statement from LQ about Angband being built and given to Sauron to guard against attack from Valinor.

Finally, we have the short descriptions from the Ainulindale of the dwelling places and activities of a few of the Valar. As I said earlier, I still think that this is the best place to put the LT descriptions of their dwellings. And then we have in my draft the Gift of Eru, but as Findegil has reminded me, we used this in the Ainulindale (and I agree that that is the better place for it).

Well, that was long, but I hope it was useful. I feel as if I am starting to see a text take shape that is superior to both of our versions. I can try to produce a text that implements my proposals above.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-16-2017 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:26 PM   #24
Findegil
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Thank you, Aiwendil, for this very through analyses and eloquent arguments for the structure of your draft, with which I mostly can agree.
Just to explain a bit how I arrived at the choice of basis text, which made up for many of the differences: In part one I took up the portion of text that we had worked on in the Ainulindalë thread and farther edited it. In the second part I made a similar research like Aiwendil to find out which text should have priority. My conclusion was that AAm and LQ were more or less contemporary. In such a case I assumed that a fuller text (and I considered LQ to be the fuller text) could be used instead of a probably slightly younger (AAm). I did not at that time observe the structural changes. Once the choice of the basis text was done and given my very well observed tendency to include as much details as possible the draft as presented was the logical consequence.

However that might have been, back to the actual business. As said above I can agree to many of your arguments but not to all. And the most important point are the additions from
Myths Transformed II
I don’t think that the full content of the texts should be or can be rejected based on the fact that we have decided to reject the round earth cosmology. Let’s take an example from this actual chapter: We use part of the LT text even so many elements of the story were clearly at variance to what we considered ‘true’, like Laurelin sprouting first, or the story of the planting of the trees, ... now why is that possible? Because we consider that only that parts of the text, that were directly gainsaid by sources of higher priority must be skipped or such parts as are clearly depend on such gainsaid elements. This freedom is given under our rule 3).
Now to MT, here are no contradictions with texts of higher priority. The reason why we do not use this text entirely is a decision following rule 2.b): a change proposed by JRR Tolkien but inadequately documented so that it is deemed unworkable by us. But this decision was up to this point only taken for the round earth cosmology. (And that question might have been the trigger for rule 2.b).)
Your argument as I have understood is, that the changes introduce with MT are only needed to make the round earth cosmology work for the story. And I agree that these changes are needed for the round earth cosmology. But that the round earth cosmology does depend on these changes does not make the change depending on the round earth cosmology. So we have a high priority text not contradicted by a first priority text (LotR, Hobbit, RGEO, AdvTomB) but in an essential feature discarded by us due to the upheaval it would introduce in the project. Does that disqualify all the other features of the text?
I don’t think so. At least we never handle other texts in a similar way.

Now some comments on the single points Aiwendil raised:

BoT-17: When I wrote my comments to the changes introduced it was years after compilation of the text. So I didn’t check if this was really new in MT. I fully agree that AAm §21 is similar enough. But if MT is seen as a valid text, than it has higher priority and would be preferable over AAm for such an addition. (If AAm is the basis text the addition is of course obsolete.)


[b[]The First War and Spring of Arda[/b]

I agreed to your statement about the first part.

BoT-20: This was moved because the description of Melkor in MT does not fit to this. So I thought that at his first coming to Arda he was the bright and shiny guy he wished to be, but when he entered again, now to fight for his rule of the kingdom of Arda he appeared in that dark and frightening shape.

I agree that we have some redundancy here and should amend that. But if the pure §21 of AAm is sufficient I doubt. But that can be checked later.

BoT-22 might have been an artefact of my editing. I agree that it does not make much sense as it stands now. Probably I put it in to distinguish between the two passages, or both were added at different times, but I don’t really know.

BoT-23 & BoT-24: If MT is a valid source than it might have to rule here, meaning that we should use this passage to describe the outcome of the war from MT II, outline:
Quote:
At length discovering Melkor and where he dwells they seek to drive him out again, but Utumno proves too strong.
and this from MT VI:
Quote:
Later, he[Melkor] must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.
Which means that we might use the passage from LQ rather than AAm.

BoT-25 & BoT-26: I wanted the footnote and for that matter took the passage of BoT-25. But Aiwendil is right that the information of the footnote might be placed better at later point and probably in the text itself.


Building of Valinor

I agree to take rather the passages from AAm then what I proposed in VT-LQ-01.

Also you are right that §13 of LQ can be removed. So we might add the ‘fair things’ from LQ into the LT material.

If we use Silindrin and Kulullin here, we have to discuss. But it is linked with later times when the Light of the Trees is collected and used, so I postpone my remarks a bit.


LT Description of Valars’ Dwellings
The question is which text we split in order to include these descriptions. With your placement you had to split the LT material to small section that you could fit into the AAm passage. I took in the descriptions in here, where the story the mansion are build, as it was in LT in order to hold the text of LT more together. But in the end this did not work as well as thought, because I had to skip great part of the LT passage that I include completely leading to nearly the same sectioning of the text as your editing. So yes as I already said I can agree to follow in this part the structure of AAm and with that to insert the description of the mansions of the Valar and their houses in Valimar later.


Building of Valimar
I agree to your proposal here. Since we do not specify any house in Valimar here we can still include the descriptions given in LT later together with that of the mansions of the Valar.

Analysing AAm more carefully I see that the movement of the statement about Valinor becoming more beautiful than Mibble-earth in the spring of Arda was a mistake. From AAm it is clear that this was the case even before the Trees were in being, which I thought (wrongly) was reason for this.


Growth of the Trees
Agreed.


Names of the Trees
I agree to your proposal for a better editing

About Silpion or Telperion as name given by Lóriën: I do not see any good reason to change this Silpion was still as valid in LQ. Even so Telperion was a more usual name, why should that change the fact that Lóriën invented the name Silpion? Would we create a new factum by changing this? I think we should avoid that.


Waxing and Waning of the Trees

The redundancy we should eliminate. I observed as well that Yavanna is speaking in a phase were Laurelin waned, but since it could have been half a day later I did not see a problem with this. I at least would like to keep the direct speech of Yavanna in that passage.


Gathering of the Lights

This is a problematic part and it has influences on earlier and later parts as well (gathering of the Lights of the Lamps in Valinor and Ungoliant draining the stores of light).
One detail that we have to discuss is the use of Silindrin and Kulullin. In LT these are the reservoirs (to use neutral word) for storing the light of the Lamps that the Valar collect at this stage in the story and then they are later used to store the light of Trees. If we use them there we will have to deal with them later in the chapter The Darkening of Valinor. There Ungoliant has to empty them to generate the need of Yavanna for the light of the Silmarils. On the other hand the Valar did need some reservoir for the light of the Lamps.
One way to deal with this could be to hold the lights fully separated. That means Silindrin and Kulullin are used only for the Light or the Lamps. The Light of the Lamps is in all later stories collected to Valinor but not used in the creation of the Trees. If we remove the element from LT that the light from Kulullin and Silindrin were used in creating (that we removed both) and refreshing of the Trees out of our story line, we could (implicit) say that the light of the Lamps was not suitable for watering the Trees or for the rekindling of the Trees after Ungoliants attack. (This could be exemplified by the spilling out of light from Silindrins and Kulullin with no avail that Vána and Lóriën did in LT. But this addition might be a bit ‘risky’.) In that way Kulullin and Silindirn could stay intact as they do in LT but still Yavanna could utter the demand for the Silmarils.
I think that such a separating of the Lights is already hinted at when we come to the creation of the Sun. The juice of the last Fruit of Laurelin is in LT not collected in Kulullin but in a newly build reservoir: Tanyasalpë.
Thus the vats of Varda for the watering of the Trees and the nourishment of the distant parts of Valinor would be needed and can be the only reservoir drained by Ungoliant. Since only in them was collected the of the Trees.

It is mentioned in MT if the “Primeval Light” was used in the creation of the Trees. Note 19 to text II reads:
Quote:
In other scribbled notes (written at the same time as text II and constituting a part of that manuscript) my father wrote that Varda gave the holy light received in gift from Ilúvatar (see p. 380) not only to the Sun and to the Two Trees but also to 'the significant Star'. The meaning of this is nowhere explained. Beside it he wrote Signifer, and many experimental Elvish names, as Taengyl, Tengyl, Tannacolli or Tankol, Tainacolli; also a verbal root tana 'show, indicate'; tanna 'sign'; and kola 'borne, worn, especially a vestment or cloak', with the note 'Sindikoll-o is masculinized'.
If our farther discussions lead to the rejection of all MT material than this is not an issue, but if not then is the justification to include it in the creation of the Trees and we have to discuss how to do it.


Reckoning of Time

The issue, as Aiwendil called it, is not restricted to a secondary priority source like Shibboleth and at least not directly connected to the revised cosmology. From LotR, Appendix D:
Quote:
It seems clear that the Eldar in Middle-earth, who had, as Samwise remarked, more time at their disposal, reckoned in long periods, and the Quenya word yén, often translated 'year' (1, 491), really means 144 of our years.
So this can not be dealt with under rule 2b as a proposed change that we cannot adopt. However nice an explanation we could create in the background to keep the 9.58 Y.S. = 1 V.Y., in the foreground we would create a contradiction with a full ‘canonical’ text. I think in this situation ‘ambiguity’ should be our best friend. We should simply avoid any statement about the relation between Y.S. and V.Y. and as far as possible not give any dates in V.Y..


Joy in Valinor and Twilight in Middle-earth

The AAm passage about Valinor being more beautiful I already agreed to move back to its original place. The MT passage (if we decide to use any MT material) is near enough to what Ainulindalë §31 does tell, so that we might combine the two. Especially the first parts of both seem to very close. In both it is made clear that at first the Valar did go to Middle-earth more often, but then stayed more and more in Valinor and left Middle-earth to Melkor.

I agree to put the statement about Angband here.

I also agree to put the descriptions of the dwellings of the Valar here, in cooperating them into the short passage from AAm. And the placing back of the communication of Iluvatar about the gift of Men to the end of the Ainulindalë we already agreed up on.


The most important point to be solved is the issue with the MT material. As I see now it will influence many more parts than I thought. As an example the Dome of Varda is also a part that we did not consider so far. The more I read in that source, the more I agree to jallanite’s position that it is possible to create a round earth version (though I have ever been leaning to his side). Nonetheless as said before such a fundamental decision can not be revised at this stage of the project. So I stay to the flat earth version we try to create. But as argued above that does not render all elements of MT useless.

Respectfully
Findegil

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Old 10-21-2017, 08:28 AM   #25
Aiwendil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
My conclusion was that AAm and LQ were more or less contemporary. In such a case I assumed that a fuller text (and I considered LQ to be the fuller text) could be used instead of a probably slightly younger (AAm).
This is an interesting question. I suppose my opinion is that AAm has priority in terms of facts (i.e. if AAm and LQ contradict each other, AAm is the ‘truth’ for our purposes), but that if LQ tells things in more depth or offers details that AAm doesn’t then, assuming it doesn’t actually contradict AAm, it can be used. Still, to preserve the unity of the text as much as possible, I prefer to use AAm as much as possible - i.e. LQ should really offer some new detail, not just a different phrasing of things, for us to use it.

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I don’t think that the full content of the texts should be or can be rejected based on the fact that we have decided to reject the round earth cosmology. Let’s take an example from this actual chapter: We use part of the LT text even so many elements of the story were clearly at variance to what we considered ‘true’, like Laurelin sprouting first, or the story of the planting of the trees, ... now why is that possible? Because we consider that only that parts of the text, that were directly gainsaid by sources of higher priority must be skipped or such parts as are clearly depend on such gainsaid elements. This freedom is given under our rule 3).
Now to MT, here are no contradictions with texts of higher priority. The reason why we do not use this text entirely is a decision following rule 2.b): a change proposed by JRR Tolkien but inadequately documented so that it is deemed unworkable by us. But this decision was up to this point only taken for the round earth cosmology. (And that question might have been the trigger for rule 2.b).)
Your argument as I have understood is, that the changes introduce with MT are only needed to make the round earth cosmology work for the story. And I agree that these changes are needed for the round earth cosmology. But that the round earth cosmology does depend on these changes does not make the change depending on the round earth cosmology. So we have a high priority text not contradicted by a first priority text (LotR, Hobbit, RGEO, AdvTomB) but in an essential feature discarded by us due to the upheaval it would introduce in the project. Does that disqualify all the other features of the text?
I don’t think so. At least we never handle other texts in a similar way.
I agree with almost everything you say here, but maybe I expressed my argument against using MT here poorly. What I am arguing is that the excerpts from MT do depend on the new cosmology. In other words, that it is only because, in the new cosmology, Arda is one solar system among countless others that it makes sense to speak of the possibility of Melkor ruling in other parts of Eä, or of Ainur dwelling in places other than Arda. My argument is that these passages imply a cosmology that is different from the old, flat-earth cosmology that is our ‘truth’. Mind you, this is an argument I’m not fully convinced of myself, though I must say I am leaning toward agreeing with it.

I’m also not sure I agree with one point you make. You seem to say that if a change A was made by Tolkien and another change B followed directly from it and was therefore also made by Tolkien, we can (indeed, must) take up change B even if we have rejected change A as unworkable. As I see it, changes A and B are really two parts of one large change. B is part of the ‘working out’ of A. If Tolkien had made enough changes (B, C, D, etc.) to implement A then A would no longer be ‘unworkable’, and would not fall under rule 2b; but in the absence of sufficient changes, I think we must reject both A and B together. Here, obviously, A and B are the new cosmology and the new account of the Ainur’s actions at the beginning of time.

Now, it’s not always so simple - sometimes it’s hard to tell whether B is a direct consequence of A or a separate change that would have been made even without A. And, if one grants that the MT passages under discussion don’t directly contradict the old cosmology, then this, I feel, is the question that must still be answered.

Quote:
BoT-17: When I wrote my comments to the changes introduced it was years after compilation of the text. So I didn’t check if this was really new in MT. I fully agree that AAm §21 is similar enough. But if MT is seen as a valid text, than it has higher priority and would be preferable over AAm for such an addition. (If AAm is the basis text the addition is of course obsolete.)
I still tend to think that if two passages give the same details, then the one to be preferred is the one that least chops up Tolkien’s text. But a case could be made that the MT passage does offer a new detail in saying that Oromë went to the uttermost east in the search. I don’t see anything in this passage as depending on the new cosmology, so I think that regardless of our decision on the earlier passages, we are free to use this one if we decide it offers a new detail.

Quote:
BoT-20: This was moved because the description of Melkor in MT does not fit to this. So I thought that at his first coming to Arda he was the bright and shiny guy he wished to be, but when he entered again, now to fight for his rule of the kingdom of Arda he appeared in that dark and frightening shape.
OK, that makes sense. Here again, I ask myself whether this new element (Melkor loving and desiring light, and therefore taking a bright form initially) in MT II is truly independent of the new cosmology. It could be; or it could have been introduced for no other reason than to motivate Melkor’s ravishing of Árië.

Quote:
I agree that we have some redundancy here and should amend that. But if the pure §21 of AAm is sufficient I doubt. But that can be checked later.
OK, when you have time, let us know what you think §21 of AAm is missing that should be added and we can discuss it.

BoT-23, -24: Good point. This is one piece from MT that even I cannot really argue to be based on the cosmology change, so I agree we should take the passage from LQ, regardless of what we decide about the other MT excerpts.

Quote:
About Silpion or Telperion as name given by Lóriën: I do not see any good reason to change this Silpion was still as valid in LQ. Even so Telperion was a more usual name, why should that change the fact that Lóriën invented the name Silpion? Would we create a new factum by changing this? I think we should avoid that.
That’s true. Yes, I agree that “Silpion” can be used there.

Quote:
Waxing and Waning of the Trees

The redundancy we should eliminate. I observed as well that Yavanna is speaking in a phase were Laurelin waned, but since it could have been half a day later I did not see a problem with this. I at least would like to keep the direct speech of Yavanna in that passage.
I agree that keeping the direct speech of Yavanna would be good, if we can manage it. But the text at it stands very much makes it seem to me as if she is speaking immediately after Laurelin has bloomed, so that what she says doesn’t make sense. Maybe there is a way we can better edit this.

Gathering of the Lights: My issue here is mainly that in no version of the story are there two separate repositories of light associated with each tree. On the contrary, it seems to me that the “vats” or “wells” of Varda replaced the cauldrons from the Lost Tales. Indeed, I would sooner accept naming those vats Silindrin and Kululluin than I would having both the vats and the cauldrons. Retaining the cauldrons as receptacles for the light of the Lamps, but not of the Trees, seems far too great a liberty to me.

I’m not sure myself whether the idea of the salvaged light of the Lamps being used to make the Trees was definitely rejected or just omitted in the relatively briefer LQ and AAm - but I think we must err on the side of omitting it.

As for the Primeval Light of MT, here again I think this is part of the change to the new cosmology, with the new roles of the Sun, the Moon, and the Trees, and the rejection of the Lamps, and cannot be separated from it.

Reckoning of Time: Thanks, I had forgotten that LotR mentions the 144 figure for yén. Of course, one could posit that the 144 year yén is different from the 9.58 year Valian Year, but this would be mere invention. So I agree, we should remove the section on the reckoning of time.

Quote:
The AAm passage about Valinor being more beautiful I already agreed to move back to its original place. The MT passage (if we decide to use any MT material) is near enough to what Ainulindalë §31 does tell, so that we might combine the two. Especially the first parts of both seem to very close. In both it is made clear that at first the Valar did go to Middle-earth more often, but then stayed more and more in Valinor and left Middle-earth to Melkor.
Do you mean §34 of the Ainulindalë (I don’t see the relevance of §31)? I suppose we could try combining them. However, looking at this again, it strikes me that this extract from MT refers specifically to “toward the end of the Days of Bliss”, which is a point we have not reached in the narrative (indeed, it’s a little hard to say exactly what time it refers to).
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Old 10-21-2017, 08:14 PM   #26
Findegil
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First of all a addition to my last post:
Bot-20: Sometimes it would be better to read more before writing. It is ture that this passage came from much earlier in the text, but none the less it is from a description of the War that destroyed the Lamps and Almaren. The structure in the Ainulindalë is strange enough as already observed earlier. This seems to be a results of Tolkiens frame story. First we have Pengolodh quote the work of Rumil and telling in very short words the first strife (end of §23 and §24) with Melkors flight (end of §24), the Valar taking shape (§25) and Melkors return and taking shape (mid to end of §26) and the Battle after Melkors return which is here call ‘the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda’ (§27). Then follows the interlude with Pengolodh speaking to Ælfwine and vise versa (§28 to §29) but then with Pengolodh speak now free and not quoting from Rumils work the story returns to the first strife that was ended by the flight of Melkor before Tulkas (beginning of §31) continues through the making of the Lamps and Almaren (rest of §31). §32 retells then again Melkors return and the following Battle with the destruction of the Lamps and Almaren.

MT: Then it seems to me, we have to discuss each element in turn. The more I read in the text the more find my self inclined to use elements of it. Like the dome of Varda. And I as well do not fully agree that Arda interpreted as one world amid many is bound to the round earth. I think we have some where a mixed text with both a flat earth and other world around. I will search for it.

BoT-17: I agree to combining the passages.

§21 AAm: Yes I will come back to this.

Quote:
I’m not sure myself whether the idea of the salvaged light of the Lamps being used to make the Trees was definitely rejected or just omitted in the relatively briefer LQ and AAm - but I think we must err on the side of omitting it.
How so ever, since we seem to agree that the Valar gathered light from the Lamps, as they do that in all version in which the Lamps are included, they have to store it some where. Are we then including the vats earlier? Does not sound right to me, so it might work.

The End of the Days of Bliss: This a difficult question. I will search for an answer.

Who of us is now to produce the combined draft? But probably we both should wait until we cleared the open questions.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM   #27
Aiwendil
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Quote:
Bot-20: Sometimes it would be better to read more before writing. It is ture that this passage came from much earlier in the text, but none the less it is from a description of the War that destroyed the Lamps and Almaren. The structure in the Ainulindalë is strange enough as already observed earlier. This seems to be a results of Tolkiens frame story. First we have Pengolodh quote the work of Rumil and telling in very short words the first strife (end of §23 and §24) with Melkors flight (end of §24), the Valar taking shape (§25) and Melkors return and taking shape (mid to end of §26) and the Battle after Melkors return which is here call ‘the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda’ (§27). Then follows the interlude with Pengolodh speaking to Ælfwine and vise versa (§28 to §29) but then with Pengolodh speak now free and not quoting from Rumils work the story returns to the first strife that was ended by the flight of Melkor before Tulkas (beginning of §31) continues through the making of the Lamps and Almaren (rest of §31). §32 retells then again Melkors return and the following Battle with the destruction of the Lamps and Almaren.
Ah, very well noticed! The account given by Rumil is a bit murky, since it doesn’t mention the Lamps or Almaren by name, but I think you are right that §27 refers to the time when the Lamps were destroyed. So your placement of Melkor taking physical form is correct.

Quote:
MT: Then it seems to me, we have to discuss each element in turn. The more I read in the text the more find my self inclined to use elements of it. Like the dome of Varda. And I as well do not fully agree that Arda interpreted as one world amid many is bound to the round earth. I think we have some where a mixed text with both a flat earth and other world around. I will search for it.
It looks like the question of what we should and should not use from MT is likely to be a difficult and contentious one. I must say that I am very much disinclined to use the Dome of Varda, but we can discuss that in its proper place.

However, rereading the Ainulindalë and Christopher Tolkien’s discussion of it, I think I find some support for your position regarding Arda as one world among many, for the Ainulindalë D has:

Quote:
And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable Stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness - as who should take the whole field of Arda as the foundations of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit was more bitter than a needle - or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein.
So the cosmology of Ainulindalë C and D (for they are here almost identical) does already have a vast universe and “innumerable Stars”. Given this, I am more amenable to keeping the first passage from MT II.

Quote:
How so ever, since we seem to agree that the Valar gathered light from the Lamps, as they do that in all version in which the Lamps are included, they have to store it some where. Are we then including the vats earlier? Does not sound right to me, so it might work.
That’s a fair point, and I’m not really sure what the best approach is here. I do tend to view the vats as replacing the cauldrons, so that the light of the Lamps would indeed be stored in the vats. But I will think about this more.

Quote:
Who of us is now to produce the combined draft? But probably we both should wait until we cleared the open questions.
Yes, let’s try to clear up some more of the open questions and then one of us (I don’t mind doing it, but also don’t mind if you do it) can produce a new draft.

ArcusCalion, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on these points too before we go too far down the road of producing a new draft.
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM   #28
ArcusCalion
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I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond, irl duties and school and all that have kept me somewhat busy these past few weeks.

On the Basic Structure

I agree with Aiwendil that the structure of Findegil's drafts are often very piecemeal, but I am on his side: the more detail the merrier. He and I used to clash very often over stylistic issues I had, so I find sympathy with the issue of choppiness in the drafts. However, what about the AAm text is inherently better or worse than the LQ text?

On the MT questions

The "Arda as a solar system" situation

I feel very strongly that, as you yourself pointed out with the quote from Ainulindale C and D Aiwendil, Tolkien had changed the cosmology from its old concept of "Arda globed amid the Void" to "Arda amid the innumerable stars." This is not a concept necessarily bound up with a round earth cosmology, as Arda is perfectly capable with being bound by the "circles of the world" as described in, say, the Ambarkanta, as well as amid many stars and planets of Ea. I would thus say that, while the term "solar syatem" clearly doesnt apply to the flat-earth/sunless version of the primordial cosmology, Arda is still very much a "planet" in space, with layers of atmosphere and a flat surface (Ambar) but instead of globed amid the Void of nothingness, it is globed amid the vast halls and spaces of Ea. Thus, I was very amenable to Findegil's inclusion of the MT material about the earliest movements of the Valar in the deeps of space, and Melkor's arrival in Arda. It is the fullest account of these events and is not contradictory to any of the latest versions of the flat earth canon.

The "primeval light" of Varda

While in the MT text, the light given to Varda by Iluvatar is clearly meant to be the foundation of the Sun, not the trees, I see no reason to exclude it once the Sun has been removed from the narrative. There are many instances of using the LT in the project, notably in the Ruin of Doriath or Earendil chapters, to add depth while changing the application of the words from their original use. This is, in my opinion, not a very drastic change, as Varda is said to be tied to light intrinsically, and the making of the stars and trees could not be said to have been done without special light. However, that being said, the creation of the Sun later with this light might need revision from Findegil's version, as for Varda to give this light to Arie, it would mean she had some already, and if so, why could she not use it to give light to Arda. It is therefore a difficult question, but one that could be said to be inherent in the mythos as written. If Aule can produce mountains, and Ulmo water, and Manwe air, and Yavanna cause trees to grow, why can Varda not seem to produce light? It would seem that this question went unanswered by Tolkien, and so must remain a logical issue in all versions of our text. Thus, I think overall, it wold be best to include the descriptions of Varda's light, as they do not contradict (by themselves) anything from the latest versions of the flat earth cosmology, even if their original application was different.

the "Dome of Varda"

I can see no real reason not to include this feature, as it is not explicitly tied to the round earth structure. It simply seems to be Tolkien's latest thoughts on the matter. However, the two starmakings of Varda are in the essay on it changed from 1) before Arda, 2) before the elves to 1) before Arda, 2) the dome of Varda. Whether we keep the two original starmakings (as we must) and simply add the Dome as a third (which seems easiest to me) is a very minor point, and I think could be done without much editing or loss of Tolkien's sense.

BoT-17: I think it gives a sense of completeness and detail that AAm lacks, so I am with Fin on including it. That being said, I see the redundancy of the following passage and agree that the two references to the "going to war" should be reduced to one. Aiwendil's version of this combination looks great.

BoT-20: I think the description of Melkor as desirous of Light is not simply born out of the round earth ravishing of Arie story. I think in Tolkien's philosophical considerations of the nature of Melkor and the Valar and Eru, he went into great consideration of the motives of each of these players. The "unfallen" state of Melkor as a being of Light and beauty fits with his later ideas of Melkor beginning with great power and glory and falling into darkness and smallness through self-involved nihilism. I think the brightness of Melkor in the beginning is, in fact, relatively essential to his progression as a character and type of a Satan figure in the mythological structure, and as a motivating and defining character state.

BoT-23, -24: I agree with Fin that the LQ bit should be used, as per MT, so I would combine it thus:
Quote:
BoT-23 <LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm {In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for} And the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.>
BoT-25, -26: I agree with Aiwendil's changes here, this last paragraph is unnecessary, and the footnote should be used later.

Building of Valinor: I agree with Aiwendil's points here.

Descriptions of the Dwellings of the Valar: I agree that this should be later, as in AAm.

Growth of the Trees: agreed

Names of the Trees: As you have already agreed to use Silpion, I just want to say that I favor Aiwendil's general change of Silpion > Telperion, as Tolkien did himself, but in this and the few other cases in the Sun and Moon story where it is appropriate to use Silpion, I think we should.

Waxing and Waning of the Trees: It seems we are all in agreement that Yavanna's speech should be kept, but the wording issues will no doubt be resolved in one of your drafts which are to come.

Gathering of the Lights: This seems to be the most controversial point in the chapter, as it is a difficult one. If Kullulin/Silindrin are to be removed, then many of the LT descriptions of Valinor need heavy editing, and the Tale of Sun and Moon as well (but this we already know). I think personally that there is no reason to remove them, as it says that the Maiar removed the light from the wells and watered the friths and fields of Valinor with in in AAm, so why is it contradictory to have the cauldrons and the wells of varda? I agree that they are most likely abandoned, but there is nothing against their inclusion alongside the wells. ALternatively, we could simply say the Wells of Varda are the cauldrons, and have them made after the trees, leaving the part about the lack of light for Aule's building out.

Reckoning of Time: This has been resolved already, so I have no further comments.

Joy in Valinor and Twilight in Middle-earth: I agree with everything Aiwendil said for this section.

Phew that was a lot. I hope I have articulated myself well enough on each point.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; Yesterday at 06:50 PM.
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