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Old 04-06-2005, 09:20 AM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,239
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
The Narn i Chîn Húrin: Beleg & Falivirn

This is the first draft of an expaned version ot the Story of Túrin Turambar NA. Our basis text is: Unfinished Tales; part 1; The First Age ; chapter 2: The Narn i Hîn Húrin (Narn). All additions from other sources are marked.

For a easier discussion the text will be devided into three parts:
1. The Fostering of Túrin: Reaching from the intro to the Narn until the end of Dor-Curathol
2. Beleg & Falivirn: Takes the story until the Fall of Nargothrond
3. The End of the Narn

Part 1 corrospondes more or less to the part of the Narn given in Unfinished Tales up to the big break at the end of Of Mîm including what is given in the Appendix to the Narn

Part 2 does fill the break in the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. In this part only we will try to take up parts of the old Lay of the Children of Húrin.

Part 3 is the End of the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. And there is not much to add or to change in this part.

In addtion one thread will hold the general changes.

We have 4 groups of changes:

NA-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up in the text, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

NA-RG-zz: These changes are semi general. They are normaly forced by a change in the nomuclature but could within the lines of a poem that are added not dealt with by simple replacment. The changed nomuclature is listed but not numbered with the general changes below.

NA-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit to the later sources. These editorial markers are also sometimes used when a change was not made that could or should be considered and discussed in view of the stroyline of a later text.

NA-TI-zz For text that is takenin from other sources since it was left out in the version given in the Unfinisched Tales.

NA-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, and texts takenin which I marked for easier reference.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

In this second part we will take up some parts of the old Lay of the children of Húrin. For an easier reference to the original text I have included the original line-numbers. If once we are done with our emendation I think we will renumber all sections of the Lay taken-up into our text seperatley.


Quote:
NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>
NA-TI-21 <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; and he sought in vain among the dead for Túrin, to bury him. But he found him not; and then he knew that Húrin's son was yet alive, and taken to Angband.
With little hope Beleg departed from Amon Rûdh and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin], following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach. And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth.>NA-EX-43 <editorial bridge As it is told in the Lay:

><Lay NA-EX-44{he}He fared to the forest{. No}; no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, but in haste alone
he followed the feet of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts of Hithlum's men
and Doriath's doughtiest in a dream of fear. {740}
Unmatched among Men, or magic-wielding

… There bowed hopeless,
in wit wildered, and wooing death,
he saw on a sudden a slender sheen {775}
shine a-shimmering in the shades afar,
like a glow-worm's lamp a-gleaming dim.
He marvelled what it might be as he moved softly;
for he knew not the NA-RG-01{Gnomes}[Noldor] of need delving
in the deep dungeons of dark Morgoth. {780}
Unmatched their magic in metal-working,
who jewels and gems that rejoiced the NA-RG-02{Gods}[Great]
aforetime fashioned, when they freedom held,
now swinking slaves of ceaseless labour
in Angband's smithies, nor ever were suffered {785}
to wander away, warded always.


'Twas NA-RG-02.5{a Gnome}[a Noldo] he beheld on the heaped needles {800}
of a pine-tree pillowed, when peering wary
he crept closer. The covering pelt
was loosed from the lamp of living radiance
by his side shining. Slumber-shrouded
his fear-worn face was fallen in shade. {805}
Lest in webs woven of unwaking sleep,
spun round by spells in those spaces dark,
he lie forlorn and lost for ever,
the Hunter hailed him in the hushed forest -
to the drowsy deeps of his dream profound {810}
fear ever-following came falling loud;
as the lancing lightning he leapt to his feet
full deeming that dread and death were upon him,
NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] fleeing in anguish
from the mines of Morgoth. Marvelling he heard {815}
the ancient tongue of the Elves of NA-SL-03{Tûn}[Thingol];
and Beleg the Bowman embraced him there,
and learnt his lineage and luckless fate{,}.>

NA-TI-22<Sil77 Grieving Beleg looked upon him; for Gwindor was now but a bent and fearful shadow of his former shape and mood, when in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad that lord of Nargothrond rode with rash courage to the very doors of Angband, and there was taken. For few of the Noldor whom Morgoth captured were put to death, because of their skill in forging and in mining for metals and gems; and Gwindor was not slain, but put to labour in the mines of the North. By secret tunnels known only to themselves the mining Elves might sometimes escape; and thus it came to pass that Beleg found him, spent and bewildered in the mazes of Taur-nu-Fuin.> NA-EX-45<editorial bridge And in the Lay it is told of Gwindor:

><LayA tale he unfolded of terrible flight
o'er flaming fell and fuming hollow, {825}


In eager anger then up sprang Beleg,
crying and calling, careless of NA-RG-04{Flinding}[Gwindor]:
'O Túrin, Túrin, my troth-brother, {870}
to the brazen bonds shall I abandon thee,
and the darkling doors of the Deeps of Hell?'

'Thou wilt join his journey to the jaws of sorrow,
O bowman crazed, if thy bellowing cry
to the Orcs should come; their ears than cats' {875}
are keener whetted, and though the camp from here
be a day distant where those deeds I saw,
who knows if the NA-RG-05.5{Gnome}[Elf] they now pursue
that crept from their clutches, as a crawling worm
on belly cowering, whom they bleeding cast {880}
in deathly swoon on the dung and slough
of their loathsome lair. O Light of Valinor!
and ye glorious NA-RG-06{Gods}[Greats]! How gleam their eyes,
and their tongues are red!' 'Yet I Túrin will wrest
from their hungry hands, or to Hell be dragged, {885}
or sleep with the slain in the slades of Death.
Thy lamp shall lead us, and my lore rekindle
and wise wood-craft!' 'O witless hunter,
thy words are wild - wolves unsleeping
and wizardry ward their woeful captives; {890}
unerring their arrows; the icy steel
of their curved blades cleaves unblunted
the meshes of mail; the mirk to pierce
those eyes are able; their awful laughter
the flesh freezes! I fare not thither, {895}
for fear fetters me in the Forest of Night:
better die in the dark dazed, forwandered,
than wilfully woo that woe and anguish!
I know not the way.' 'Are the knees then weak
of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin]? Shall {free}great-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Noldo] {900}
thus show himself a shrinking slave,
who twice entrapped has twice escaped?
Remember the might and the mirth of yore,
the renown of the NA-RG-08{Gnomes}[Noldor] of Nargothrond! '

Thus Beleg the bowman quoth bold-hearted, {905}
but NA-RG-09{Flinding}[Gwindor] fought the fear of his heart,
and loosed the light of his lamp of blue,
now brighter burning. In the black mazes
enwound they wandered, weary searching;
by the tall tree-boles towering silent {910}
oft barred and baffled; blindly stumbling
over rock-fast roots writhing coiled;
and drowsed with dreams by the dark odours,
till hope was hidden. 'Hark thee, NA-RG-10{Flinding}[Gwindor];
viewless voices vague and distant, {915}
a muffled murmur of marching feet
that are shod with stealth shakes the stillness.'

'No noise I hear', the NA-RG-11{Gnome}[Noldo] answered,
'thy hope cheats thee.' 'I hear the chains
clinking, creaking, the cords straining, {920}
and wolves padding on worn pathways.
I smell the blood that is smeared on blades
that are cruel and crooked; the croaking laughter -
now, listen! louder and louder comes,'
the hunter said. 'I hear no sound', {925}
quoth NA-RG-12{Flinding}[Gwindor] fearful. 'Then follow after! '
with bended bow then Beleg answered,
'my cunning rekindles, my craft needs not
thy lamp's leading.' Leaping swiftly
he shrank in the shadows; with shrouded lantern {930}
NA-RG-13{Flinding}[Gwindor] followed him, and the forest-darkness
and drowsy dimness drifted slowly
unfolding from them in fleeing shadows,
and its magic was minished, till they marvelling saw
they were brought to its borders. There black-gaping {935}

… and the troublous murmur
of viewless voices in the vaulted gloom
came near and nearer. 'Ah! now I hear', {960}
said NA-RG-14{Flinding}[Gwindor] fearful; 'flee we swiftly
from hate and horror and hideous faces,
from fiery eyes and feet relentless!
Ah! woe that I wandered thus witless hither!'


Their road of ruin was a-reek with tears:
many a hall and homestead, many a hidden refuge
of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[Man and Elves] by night beleaguered {985}
their o'ermastering might of mirth bereft,
and fair things fouled, and fields curdled
with the bravest blood of the beaten people.

To an army of war was the Orc-band waxen
that NA-SL-05{Blodrin Bor}had [Húrin]'s son to his bane {guided}hauled {990}
{to}from the wood-marches, by the welded hosts
homeward hurrying to the halls of mourning
swiftly swollen to a sweeping plague.

Then a werewolf howled; a word was shouted
like steel on stone; and stiffly raised
their spears and swords sprang up thickly {1005}
as the wild wheatfields of the NA-RG-14.5{wargod}[warlord]'s realm
with points that palely pricked the twilight.


'Follow me, NA-RG-15{Flinding}[Friend, dear], from the forest cursed!
Let us haste to his help, to Hell if need be {1025}
or to death by the darts of the dread Glamhoth!':
and Beleg bounded from the bracken madly,
like a deer driven by dogs baying
from his hiding in the hills and hollow places;
and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[the Friend] followed fearful after him {1030}
neath the yawning gate, through yew-thickets,
through bogs and bents and bushes shrunken,

Then great was the gap in the guard opened,
and Beleg his bow unbent, and said:
'Wilt come to the camp, comrade NA-RG-16{Flinding}[Gwindor],
or await me watchful? If woe betide {1100}
thou might win with word through the woods homeward
to Thingol the king how throve my quest,
how Túrin the tall was trapped by fate,
how Beleg the bowman to his bane hasted.'
Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}[the Friend] fiercely, though fear shook him: {1105}
'I have followed thee far, O forest-walker,
nor will leave thee now our league denying!'
Then both bow and sword Beleg left there
with his belt unbound in the bushes tangled
of a dark thicket in a dell nigh them, {1110}
and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[the Friend] there laid his flickering lamp
and his nailed shoes, and his knife only
he kept, that uncumbered he might creep silent.

Thus those brave in dread down the bare hillside
wards the camp clambered creeping wary, {1115}
and dared that deed in days long past
whose glory has gone through the gates of earth,
and songs have sung unceasing ringig
wherever the Elves in ancient places
had light or laughter in the later world. {1120}
With breath bated on the brink of the dale
they stood and stared through stealthy shadows,
till they saw where the circle of sleepless eyes
broken; with hearts beating dully
they passed the places where pierced and bleeding {1125}
the wolves weltered by wingéd death
unseen smitten; as smoke noiseless
they slipped silent through the slumbering throngs
as shadowy wraiths shifting vaguely
from gloom to gloom, till NA-RG-19{the Gods}[their grace] brought them {1130}
and the craft and cunning of the keen huntsman
to Túrin the tall where he tumbled layNA-SL-06{
with face downward in the filthy mire},
and his feet were fettered, and fast in bonds
anguish enchained his arms behind him. {1135}
There he slept or swooned, as sunk in oblivion
by drugs of darkness deadly blended;
he heard not their whispers; no hope stirred him
nor the deep despair of his dreams fathomed;
to awake his wit no words availed.> {1140}

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness}NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him >. But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him. NA-EX-47<editorial bridge But the Lay tells that

><Lay{No}no blade would bite on the bonds he wore,
though NA-RG-20{Flinding}[Gwindor] felt for the forged knife
of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel, his dagger prized,
that at waist he wore awake or sleeping,
whose edge would eat through iron noiseless {1145}
as a clod of clay is cleft by the share.
It was wrought by wrights in the realms of the East,
in black Belegost, by the bearded Dwarves
of troth unmindful; it betrayed him now
from its sheath slipping as o'er shaggy slades {1150}
and roughhewn rocks their road they wended.

'We must bear him back as best we may,'
said Beleg, bending his broad shoulders.
Then the head he lifted of Húrin's offspring,
and NA-RG-21{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] the feet claspédNA-SL-07{; {1155}
and doughty that deed, for in days long gone
though Men were of mould less mighty builded
ere the earth's goodness from the Elves they drew,
though the Elfin kindreds ere old was the sun
were of might unminished, nor the moon haunted {1160}
faintly fading as formed of shadows
in places unpeopled, yet peers they were not
in bone and flesh and body's fashioning,
and Túrin was tallest of the ten races
that in Hithlum's hills their homes builded}. {1165}
Like a log they lifted his limbs mighty,
and straining staggered with stealth and fear,
with bodies bending and bones aching,
from the cruel dreaming of the camp of dread,
where spearmen drowsed sprawling drunken {1170}
by their moon-blades keen with murder whetted
mid their shaven shafts in sheaves piled.

Now Beleg the brave backward led them,
but his foot fumbled and he fell thudding
with Túrin atop of him, and trembling stumbled {1175}
NA-RG-22{Flinding}[Gwindor] forward; there frozen lying
long while they listened for alarm stirring,
for hue and cry, and their hearts cowered;

Then sought his sword, and songs of magic
o'er its eager edge with {Elfin}[Elven] voice
there Beleg murmured, while bluely glimmered {1205}
the lamp of NA-RG-23{Flinding}[Gwindor] neath the lacéd thorns.
There wondrous wove he words of sharpness,
and the names of knives and NA-RG-23.5{Gnomish}[Elvish] blades
he uttered o'er it: even Ogbar's spear

… Crazed with anguish
then seized that sword the son of Húrin,
to his hand lying by the help of doom;
at the throat he thrust; through he pierced it, {1255}
that the blood was buried in the blood-wet mould;
ere NA-RG-24{Flinding}[Gwindor] knew what fared that night,
all was over. With oath and curse
he bade the goblins now guard them well,
or sup on his sword: 'Lo! the son of Húrin {1260}
is freed from his fetters.' His fancy wandered
in the camps and clearings of the cruel Glamhoth.
Flight he sought not at NA-RG-25{Flinding}[Gwindor] leaping
with his last laughter, his life to sell
amid foes imagined; but NA-RG-26{Fuilin}[Guilin]'s son {1265}
there stricken with amaze, starting backward,
cried: 'Magic of Morgoth! A! madness damned!
with friends thou fightest!' - then falling suddenly
the lamp o'erturned in the leaves shrouded
that its light released illumined pale {1270}
with its flickering flame the face of Beleg.
Then the boles of the trees more breathless rooted
stone-faced he stood staring frozen
on that dreadful death, and his deed knowing
wildeyed he gazed with waking horror, {1275}
as in endless anguish an image carven.
So fearful his face that NA-RG-27{Flinding}[Gwindor] crouched
and watched him, wondering what webs of doom
dark, remorseless, dreadly meshed him
by the might of Morgoth; and he mourned for him, {1280}
and for Beleg, who bow should bend no more,
his black yew-wood in battle twanging -
his life had winged to its long waiting
in the halls of NA-RG-28{the Moon}[Mandos] o'er the hills of the sea.


nor sight nor sound his senses knew,
and wavering words he witless murmured,
'A! Beleg,' he whispered, 'my brother-in-arms.'
Though NA-RG-29{Flinding}[the Freind] shook him, he felt it not:
had he comprehended he had cared little. {1300}

while the storm-riders strove and thundered
all the sunless day, and soaked and drenched {1320}
NA-RG-30{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] with fear speechless
there crouched aquake; cold and lifeless
lay Beleg the bowman; brooding dumbly
Túrin Thalion neath the tangled thorns
sat unseeing without sound or movement. {1325}

The dusty dunes of Dor-{na}[nu]-Fauglith
hissed and spouted. Huge rose the spires
of smoking vapour swathed and reeking,
thick-billowing clouds from thirst unquenched,
and dawn was kindled dimly lurid {1320}
when a day and night had dragged away.
The Orcs had gone, their anger baffled,
o'er the weltering ways weary faring
to their hopeless halls in Hell's kingdom;
no thrall took they Túrin Thalion - {1325}
a burden bore he than their bonds heavier,
in despair fettered with spirit empty
in mourning hopeless he remained behind.
Failivrin
NA-RG-31{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] faithful-hearted
the brand of Beleg with blood stainéd {1340}
lifted with loathing from the leafy mould,
and hid it in the hollow of a huge thorn-tree;
then he turned to Túrin yet tranced brooding,
and softly said he: 'O son of Húrin,
unhappy-hearted, what helpeth it {1345}
to sit thus in sorrow's silent torment
without hope or counsel?' But Húrin's son,
by those words wakened, wildly answered:
'I abide by Beleg; nor bid me leave him,
thou voice unfaithful. Vain are all things. {1350}
O Death dark-handed, draw thou near me;
if remorse may move thee, from mourning loosed
crush me conquered to his cold bosom!'
NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] answered he, and fear left him
for wrath and pity: 'Arouse thy pride! {1355}

I will follow your feet to the four corners {1385}
of the angry earth. Have after you!'
Fainting NA-RG-32.5{Flinding}[the Friend] there fought with him,
and words of wisdom to his witless ears
he breathless spake: 'Abide, O Túrin,


Then Beleg's burial in those bleak regions
did NA-RG-33{Flinding}[the friend] fashion; where he fell sadly {1400}
he left him lying, and lightly o'er him
with long labour the leaves he poured.
But Túrin tearless turning suddenly
on the corse cast him, and kissed the mouth
cold and open, and closed the eyes. {1405}

NA-EX-47.5{His bow laid he black beside him,}[Belthronding his bow laid he black beside him]
and words of parting wove about him:
'Now fare well, Beleg, to feasting long
neath NA-RG-34{Tengwethil}[Taniquetil] in the timeless halls
where drink the NA-RG-35{Gods}[Great], neath domes golden {1410}
o'er the sea shining.' His song was shaken,
but the tears were dried in his tortured eyes
by the flames of anguish that filled his soul.
His mind once more was meshed in darkness
as heaped they high o'er the head beloved {1415}
a mound of mould and mingled leaves.
Light lay the earth on the lonely dead;
heavy lay the woe on the heart that lived.
That grief was graven with grim token
on his face and form, nor faded ever: {1420}
and this was the third of the throes of Túrin.

Thence he wandered witless without wish or purpose;
but for NA-RG-36{Flinding }the faithful[ Freind] he had fared to death,
or been lost in the lands of lurking evil.
Renewed in that NA-RG-37{Gnome}[Noldo] of Nargothrond {1425}
was heart and valour by hatred wakened,
that he guarded and guided his grim comrade;
with the light of his lamp he lit their ways,
and they hid by day to hasten by night,
by darkness shrouded or dim vapours. {1430}


'A! green that hill with grass fadeless,
where sleep the swords of seven kindreds, {1445}
where the folk of NA-RG-38{Faerie}[Fingon] once fell uncounted.
There was fought the field by folk named
NA-RG-39{Nirnaith Ornoth}[Nirnaeth Arnoediad], Unnumbered Tears.
'Twas built with the blood of the beaten people;
neath moon nor sun is it mounted ever {1450}
by Man nor Elf; not Morgoth's host
ever dare for dread to delve therein.'
Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[the Friend] faltered, faintly stirring
Túrin's heaviness, that he turned his hand
toward Thangorodrim, and thrice he cursed {1455}
the maker of mourning, Morgoth Bauglir.


… through empty lands
and leagues untrodden, beloved of {Ylmir}[Ulmo],
fleeting floweth, with fame undying {1470}
in the songs of the NA-RG-41.5{Gnomes}[Elves], to the sea at last.
Thus reached they the roots and the ruinous feet
of those hoary hills that Hithlum girdle,
the shaggy pinewoods of the Shadowy Mountains.
There the twain enfolded phantom twilight {1475}
and dim mazes dark, unholy NA-SL-08{,
in Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods
have shrouded shrines in shadows secret,
more old than Morgoth or the ancient lords
the golden Gods of the guarded West}. {1480}
But the ghostly dwellers of that grey valley
hindered nor hurt them, and they held their course
with creeping flesh and quaking limb.
Yet laughter at whiles with lingering echo,
as distant mockery of demon voices {1485}
there harsh and hollow in the hushed twilight
NA-RG-42{Flinding}[the friends] fancied, fell, unwholesome
as that leering laughter lost and dreadful
that rang in the rocks in the ruthless hour
of Beleg's slaughter. ''Tis Bauglir's voice {1490}
that dogs us darkly with deadly scorn'
he shuddering thought; but the shreds of fear
and black foreboding were banished utterly
when they clomb the cliffs and crumbling rocks
that walled that vale of watchful evil, {1495}
and southward saw the slopes of Hithlum
more warm and friendly. That way they fared
during the daylight o'er dale and ghyll,
o'er mountain pasture, moor and boulder,
over fell and fall of flashing waters {1500}
that slipped down to Sirion, to swell his tide
in his eastward basin onward sweeping
to the South, to the sea, to his sandy delta.

After seven journeys lo! sleep took them
on a night of stars when they nigh had stridden {1505}
to those lands beloved that long had known
NA-RG-43{Flinding}[Gwindor] aforetime. At first morning
the white arrows of the wheeling sun
gazed down gladly on green hollows
and smiling slopes that swept before them. {1510}
There builded boles of beeches ancient
marched in majesty in myriad leaves
of golden russet greyly rooted,
in leaves translucent lightly robéd;
their boughs up-bending blown at morning {1515}
by the wings of winds that wandered down
o'er blossomy bent breathing odours
to the wavering water's winking margin.
There rush and reed their rustling plumes
and leaves like lances louted trembling {1520}
peen with sunlight. Then glad the soul
of NA-RG-44{Flinding }the[ fearful] fugitive; in his face the morning
here glimmered golden, his gleaming hair
was washed with sunlight. 'Awake from sadness,
Turion Thalion, and troublous thoughts! {1525}
On Ivrin's lake is endless laughter.
O! cool and clear by crystal fountains
he is fed unfailing, from defilement warded
by {Ylmir}[Ulmo] the old, who in ancient days,
wielder of waters, here worked her beauty. {1530}
From outmost Ocean yet often comes
his message hither his magic bearing,
the healing of hearts and hope and valour
for foes of Bauglir. Friend is {Ylmir}[Ulmo]
who alone remembers in the Lands of Mirth {1535}
the need of the NA-RG-45{Gnomes}[Noldor]. Here Narog's waters
(that in tongue of the NA-RG-45.5{Gnomes}[Elves] is 'torrent' named)
are born, and blithely boulders leaping
o'er the bents bounding with broken foam
swirl down southward to the secret halls {1540}
of Nargothrond by the NA-RG-47{Gnomes}[Noldor] builded.
NA-SL-09{that death and thraldom in the dreadful throes
of Nirnaith Ornoth, a number scanty,
escaped unscathed.} Thence skirting wild[ the Hills of Hunters,]
NA-SL-10{the Hills of the Hunters, the home of Beren {1545}
and the Dancer of Doriath daughter of Thingol,}
it winds and wanders ere the willowy meads,
{Nan-Tathrin}[Nan-Thatren]'s land, for nineteen leagues
it journeys joyful to join its flood
with Sirion in the South. …


Thus NA-RG-48{Flinding}[Gwindor] spake the spell feeling
of {Ylmir}[Ulmo] the old and unforgetful,
which hale and holy haunted Ivrin
and foaming Narog, so that fared there never
Orc of Morgoth, and that eager stream {1575}
no plunderer passed. If their purpose held
to reach the realms that roamed beyond
NA-SL-11{(nought yet knew they of Nargothrond)}
they harried o'er Hithlum the heights scaling
that lay behind the lake's hollow, {1580}
the Shadowy Mountains in the sheen mirrored
of the pools of Ivrin. Pale and eager
Túrin hearkened to the tale of NA-RG-49{Flinding}[Gwindor]:
the washing of waters in his words sounded,
an echo as of {Ylmir}[Ulmo]'s awful conches {1585}
in the abyss blowing. …
… In pondering fast
woven, wordless, they waked no sound, {1615}
till cold breezes keenly breathing
clear and fragrant curled about them;
then sought they for sleep a sand-pavéd
cove outcarven; there kindled fire,
that brightly blossomed the beechen faggots {1620}
in flowers of flame; floated upward
a slender smoke, when sudden Túrin
on the firelit face of NA-RG-50{Flinding}[his Friend] gazed,
and wondering words he wavering spake:
'O NA-RG-51{Gnome}[Noldo], I know not thy name or purpose {1625}
or father's blood - what fate binds thee
to a witless wayworn wanderer's footsteps,
the bane of Beleg, his brother-in-arms?'

Then NA-RG-52{Flinding}[the friend] fearful lest fresh madness
should seize for sorrow on the soul of Túrin, {1630}
retold the tale of his toil and wandering;
how the trackless folds of {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin],
Deadly Nightshade, dreadly meshed him;
of Beleg the bowman bold, undaunted,
and that deed they dared on the dim hillside, {1635}
that song has since unceasing wakened;
of the fate that fell, he faltering spake,
in the tangled thicket neath the twining thorns
when Morgoth's might was moved abroad.
Then his voice vanished veiled in mourning, {1640}
and lo! tears trickled on Túrin's face
till loosed at last were the leashed torrents
of his whelming woe. Long while he wept
soundless, shaken, the sand clutching
with griping fingers in grief unfathomed. {1645}
NA-RG-53{But Flinding the faithful}[The Faithful friend Gwindor] feared no longer;
no comfort cold he kindly found,
for sleep swept him into slumber dead.
There a singing voice sweetly vexed him
and he woke and wondered: the watchfire faded; {1650}
the night was aging, nought was moving
but a song upsoaring in the soundless dark
went strong and stern to the starlit heaven.
'Twas Túrin that towering on the tarn's margin,
up high o'er the head of the hushed water {1655}
now falling faintly, let flare and echo
a song of sorrow and sad splendour,
the dirge of Beleg's deathless glory.
There wondrous wove he words enchanted,
that woods and water waked and answered, {1660}
the rocks were wrung with ruth for Beleg.
That song he sang is since remembered,
by NA-RG-54{Gnomes}[Noldor] renewed in Nargothrond
it widely has wakened warfain armies
to battle with Bauglir - 'The Bowman's Friendship'. {1665}

'Tis told that Túrin then turned him back
and fared to NA-RG-55{Flinding}[the freind], and flung him down
to sleep soundless till the sun mounted
to the high heavens and hasted westward.

My bow is rotten in the barrow ruinous; {1690}
my grove is burned by grim lightning;
here dread dwelleth, none dare profane
this angry earth, Orc nor goblin;
none gain the gate of the gloomy forest
by this perilous path; pass they may not, {1695}
yet my life has winged to the long waiting
in the halls of NA-RG-56{the Moon}[Mandos] o'er the hills of the sea.
Courage be thy comfort, comrade lonely!'

Then he woke in wonder; his wit was healed,
courage him comforted, and he called aloud {1700}
NA-RG-57{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin], to his feet striding.
There the sun slanted its silver arrows
through the wild tresses of the waters tumbling
roofed with a radiant rainbow trembling.
'Whither, O NA-RG-58{Flinding}[Freind], our feet now turn we, {1705}
or dwell we for ever by the dancing water,
by the lake of laughter, alone, untroubled?'
'To Nargothrond of the NA-RG-59{Gnomes}[Noldor], methinks,'
said NA-RG-60{Flinding}[the Friend], 'my feet would fain wander,
NA-SL-12{that Celegorm and Curufin, the crafty sons {1710}
of Feanor}[that Finrod] founded {when they fled southward}] Thingol following;
there built a bulwark against Bauglir's hate{,
who live now lurking in league secret
with those five others in the forests of the East,
fell unflinching foes of Morgoth. {1715}
Maidros whom Morgoth maimed and tortured
is lord and leader, his left wieldeth
his sweeping sword; there is swift Maglor,
there Damrod and Díriel and dark Cranthir,
the seven seekers of their sire's treasure}. {1720}
Now Orodreth rules the realms and caverns,
the numbered hosts of Nargothrond.
'There to woman's stature will be waxen full
frail Finduilas the fleet maiden
his daughter dear, in his darkling halls {1725}
a light, a laughter, that I loved of yore,
and yet love in longing, and love calls me.'>

NA-TI-24<Sil77 And Gwindor gave the sword Anglachel into {his}Túrins hands, and Túrin knew that it was heavy and strong and had great power; but its blade was black and dull and its edges blunt. Then Gwindor said: 'This is a strange blade, and unlike any that I have seen in Middle-earth. It mourns for Beleg even as you do. But be comforted; for I return to Nargothrond of the house of Finarfin, and you shall come with me, and be healed and renewed.'
'Who are you?' said Túrin.
'A wandering Elf, a thrall escaped, whom Beleg met and comforted,' said Gwindor. 'Yet once I was Gwindor son of Guilin, a lord of Nargothrond, until I went to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and was enslaved in Angband.'
'Then have you seen Húrin son of Galdor, the warrior of Dor-lómin?' said Túrin.
'I have not seen him,' said Gwindor. 'But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin.'
'That I do believe,' said Túrin.>
NA-EX-48<editorial bridge Of their southward journey the Lay tells:

><LayWhere Narog's torrent gnashed and spouted
down his stream bestrewn with stone and boulder,
swiftly southward they sought their paths, {1730}
and summer smiling smoothed their journey
through day on day, down dale and wood
where birds blithely with brimming music
thrilled and trembled in thronging trees.

There watchful waited the Wards of Narog,
lest the need of the NA-RG-61{Gnomes}[Noldor] from the North should come,
for the sea in the South them safe guarded,
and eager Narog the East defended.

The slain are silent, and silent were the shafts
of the nimble NA-RG-62{Gnomes}[Noldor] of Nargothrond,
who word or whisper warded sleepless
from their homes deep-hidden, that hearsay never
was to Bauglir brought. …

In a gloom of green there they groped forward;
there his fate defended from flying death
Túrin Thalion - a twisted thong
of writhing roots enwrapped his foot;
as he fell there flashed, fleet, whitewingéd, {1775}
a shrill-shafted arrow that shore his hair,
and trembled sudden in a tree behind.
Then NA-RG-63{Flinding}[the freind] o'er the fallen fiercely shouted:
'Who shoots unsure his shafts at friends?
NA-RG-64{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] of the folk of Narog {1780}
and NA-SL-12.5{the son of Húrin}[a sond of Men] his sworn comrade
here flee to freedom from the foes of the North.'


… Thither bent their steps
NA-RG-65{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin], whose feet remembered {1810}
that white roadway. …


A voice they heard neath the vault rolling,
and the king them called: 'Who come ye here {1865}
from the North unloved to Nargothrond,
a NA-RG-66{Gnome}[Noldo] of bondage and a nameless Man?
No welcome finds here wandering outlaw;
save his wish be death he wins it not,
for those that have looked on our last refuge {1870}
it boots not to beg other boon of me.'
Then NA-RG-67{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] freely answered:
'Has the watch then waned in the woods of Narog,
since Orodreth ruled this realm and folk?
Or how have the hunted thus hither wandered, {1875}
if the warders willed it not thy word obeying;
or how hast not heard that thy hidden archer,
who shot his shaft in the shades of the forest,
there learned NA-SL-13{our}[my] lineage, O Lord of Narog,
and knowing {our names}[my name] his notched arrows, {1880}
loosed no longer?' Then low and hushed
a murmur moved in the multitude,
and some were who said: ''Tis the same in truth:
the long looked-for, the lost is found,
the narrow path he knew to Nargothrond {1885}
who was born and bred here from babe to youth';
and some were who said: 'The son of NA-RG-68{Fuilin}[Guilin]
was lost and looked for long years agone.


Thus the curse on the kindred for the cruel slaughter
at the Swans' Haven there swayed his heart,
but NA-RG-69{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] fiercely answered: {1905}
'NA-SL-14{Is the son of Húrin, who sits on high
in a deathless doom dreadly chainéd,
unknown, nameless, in need of plea
to fend from him the fate of foe and spy?}
NA-RG-70{Flinding}[Gwindor] the faithful, the far wanderer, {1910}
though form and face fires of anguish
and bitter bondage, Balrogs' torment,
have seared and twisted, for a song of welcome
had hoped in his heart at that home-coming
that he dreamed of long in dark labour. {1915}
Are these deep places to dungeons turned,
a lesser Angband in the land of the NA-RG-71{Gnomes}[Elves]?'

Thereat was wrath aroused in Orodreth's heart,
and the muttering waxed to many voices,
and this and that the throng shouted; {1920}
when sweet and sudden a song awoke,
a voice of music o'er that vast murmur
mounted in melody to the misty domes;
with clear echoes the caverned arches
it filled, and trembled frail and slender, {1925}
those words weaving of welcome home
that the wayweary had wooed from care
since the NA-RG-72{Gnomes}[Noldor] first knew need and wandering.
Then hushed was the host; no head was turned,
for long known and loved was that lifted voice, {1930}
and NA-RG-73{Flinding}[Gwindor] knew it at the feet of the king
like stone graven standing silent
with heart laden; but Húrin's son
was waked to wonder and to wistful thought,
and searching the shadows that the seat shrouded, {1935}
the kingly throne, there caught he thrice
a gleam, a glimmer, as of garments white.
'Twas frail Finduilas, fleet and slender,
to woman's stature, wondrous beauty,
now grown in glory, that glad welcome {1940}
there raised in ruth, and wrath was stilled.
Locked fast the love had lain in her heart
that in laughter grew long years agone
when in the meads merrily a maiden played
with fleet-footed NA-RG-74{Fuilin}[Guilin]'s youngling. {1945}
No searing scars of sundering years
could blind those eyes bright with welcome,
and wet with tears wistful trembling
at the grief there graven in grim furrows
on the face of NA-RG-75{Flinding}[Gwindor]. 'Father, ' said she, {1950}
'what dream of doubt dreadly binds thee?
'Tis NA-RG-76{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin], whose faith of yore
none dared to doubt. This dark, lonely,
mournful-fated Man beside him
if his oath avows the very offspring {1955}
of NA-SL-15{Húrin Thalion}[Edain, turehearted], what heart in this throng
shall lack belief or love refuse?
But are none yet nigh us that knew of yore
that mighty of NA-SL-16{Men}[Noldo], mark of kinship
to seek and see in these sorrow-laden {1960}
form and features? The friends of Morgoth
not thus, methinks, through thirst and hunger
come without comrades, nor have countenance
thus grave and guileless, glance unflinching.'

Then did Túrin's heart tremble wondering {1965}
at the sweet pity soft and gentle
of that tender voice touched with wisdom
that years of yearning had yielded slow;
and Orodreth, whose heart knew ruth seldom,
yet loved deeply that lady dear, {1970}
gave ear and answer to her eager words,
and his doubt and dread of dire treachery,
and his quick anger, he quelled within him.
NA-SL-17{No few were there found who had fought of old
where Finweg fell in flame of swords, {1975}
and Húrin Thalion had hewn the throngs,
the dark Glamhoth's demon legions,
and who called there looked and cried aloud:
‘’Tis the face of the father new found on earth,
and his strong stature and stalwart arms; {1980}
though such care and sorrow never claimed his sire,
whose laughing eyes were lighted clear
at board or battle, in bliss or in woe.'}
Nor could lack belief for long the words
and faith of NA-RG-77{Flinding}[Gwindor] when friend and kin {1985}
and his father hastening that face beheld.
Lo! sire and son did sweet embrace
neath trees entwining tangled branches
at the dark doorways of those deep mansions
that NA-RG-78{Fuilin}[Guilin]'s folk afar builded, {1990}
and dwelt in the deep of the dark woodland
to the West on the slopes of the Wold of Hunters.
Of the four kindreds that followed the king,
the watchtowers' lords, the wold's keepers
and the guards of the bridge, the gleaming bow {1995}
that was flung o'er the foaming froth of Ingwil,
from NA-RG-79{Fuilin}[Guilin]'s children were first chosen,
most noble of name, renowed in valour.>

NA-TI-25<Sil77 {For}Thus for Gwindor's sake Túrin was admitted with him into Nargothrond, and he dwelt there in honour. But when Gwindor would tell his name, Túrin checked him, saying: 'I am Agarwaen the son of Úmarth (which is the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate), a hunter in the woods'; and the Elves of Nargothrond questioned him no more.> NA-EX-49<editorial bridge And the Lay does tell of the feast at Gwindors return:

><LayIn those halls in the hills at that homecoming
mirth was mingled with melting tears {2000}
for the unyielding years whose yoke of pain
the form and face of NA-RG-80{Fuilin}[Guilin]'s son
had changed and burdened, chilled the laughter
that leapt once lightly to his lips and eyes.
Now in kindly love was care lessened, {2005}
with song assuaged sadness of hearts;
the lights were lit and lamps kindled
o'er the burdened board; there bade they feast
Túrin Thalion with his true comrade
at the long tables' laden plenty, {2010}
where dish and goblet on the dark-gleaming
wood well-waxéd, where the wine-flagons
engraven glistened gold and silver.
Then NA-RG-81{Fuilin}[Guilin] filled with flowing mead,
dear-hoarded drink dark and potent {2015}
a carven cup with curious brim,
by ancient art of olden smiths
fairly fashioned, filled with marvels;
there gleamed and lived in grey silver
the folk of NA-RG-82{Faërie}[Elves] in the first noontide {2020}
of the Blissful Realms; with their brows wreathéd
in garlands golden with their gleaming hair
in the wind flying and their wayward feet
fitful flickering, on unfading lawns
the ancient Elves there everlasting {2025}
danced undying in the deep pasture
of the gardens of the NA-RG-83{Gods}[Great]; there NA-RG-84{Glingol}[Culúrien] shone
and NA-RG-85{Bansil}[Silpion] bloomed with beams shimmering,
mothwhite moonlight from its misty flowers;
the hilltops of NA-RG-86{Tun}[Tuna] there high and green {2030}
were crowned by NA-RG-87{Côr}[the City], climbing, winding,
town white-walled where the tower of {Ing}[Ingwë]
with pale pinnacle pierced the twilight,
and its crystal lamp illumined clear
with slender shaft the Shadowy Seas. {2035}
Through wrack and ruin, the wrath of the NA-RG-88{Gods}[Valar],
through weary wandering, waste and exile,
had come that cup, carved in gladness,
in woe hoarded, in waning hope
when little was left of the lore of old. {2040}
Now NA-RG-89{Fuilin}[Guilin] at feast filled it seldom
save in pledge of love to proven friend;
blithely bade he of that beaker drink
for the sake of his son that sate nigh him
Túrin Thalion in token sure {2045}
of a league of love long enduring.
'NA-SL-18{O Húrin's child chief of Hithlum,}[O Child of Men chief friend of mine,]
with mourning marred, may the mead of the Elves
thy heart uplift with hope lightened;
nor fare thou from us the feast ended, {2050}
here deign to dwell; if this deep mansion
thus dark-dolven dimly vaulted
displease thee not, a place awaits thee.'

… Now cold and slim
the sickle of the Moon was silver tilted {2065}
o'er the wan waters that washed unsleeping,
nightshadowed Narog, the NA-RG-90{Gnome}[Noldorin]-river.
In tall treetops of the tangled wood
there hooted hollow the hunting owls.

Thus fate it fashioned that in NA-RG-91{Fuilin}[Guilin]'s house {2070}
the dark destiny now dwelt awhile
of Túrin the tall. There he toiled and fought
with the folk of NA-RG-92{Fuilin}[Guilin] for NA-RG-93{Flinding}[Gwindor]'s love;
lore long forgotten learned among them,
for light yet lingered in those leaguered places, {2075}
and wisdom yet lived in that wild people,
whose minds yet remembered the Mountains of the West
and the faces of the NA-RG-94{Gods}[Great], yet filled with glory
more clear and keen than kindreds of the dark
or Men unwitting of the mirth of old. {2080}

Thus NA-RG-95{Fuilin}[Guilin] and NA-RG-96{Flinding}[Gwindor] friendship showed him,
and their halls were his home, while high summer
waned to autumn and the western gales
the leaves loosened from the labouring boughs;
the feet of the forest in fading gold {2085}
and burnished brown were buried deeply;

Thus the months fleeted and mightily he fared {2095}
in the forest with NA-RG-97{Flinding}[freinds], and his fate waited
slumbering a season, while he sought for joy
the lore learning and the league sharing
of the NA-RG-98{Gnomes}[Noldor] renowned of Nargothrond.


… there many a day
to the hearth and halls of the haughty king
did those friends now fare to feast and game,
for frail Finduilas her father urged {2130}
to his board and favour to bid those twain,
and it grudging her granted that grimhearted
king deep-counselled - cold his anger,
his ruth unready, his wrath enduring;
yet fierce and fell by the fires of hate {2135}
his breast was burned for the broods of Hell
NA-SL-19{(his son had they slain, the swift-footed
Halmir the hunter of hart and boar),}
and kinship therein the king ere long
in his heart discovered for Húrin's son, {2140}
dark and silent, as in dreams walking
of anguish and regret and evergrowing
feud unsated. Thus favour soon
by the king accorded of the company of his board
he was member made, and in many a deed {2145}
and wild venture to West and North
he achieved renown among the chosen warriors
and fearless bowmen; in far battles
in secret ambush and sudden onslaught,
where fell-tonguéd flew the flying serpents, {2150}
their shafts envenomed, in valleys shrouded
he played his part, but it pleased him little,
who trusted to targe and tempered swordNA-SL-20{,
whose hand was hungry for the hilts it missed
but dared never a blade since the doom of Beleg} {2155}
{to draw or handle.}drawn and handléd. Dear-holden was he,
though he wished nor willed it, and his works were praised.
When tales were told of times gone by,
of valour they had known, of vanished triumph,
glory half-forgot, grief remembered, {2160}
then they bade and begged him be blithe and sing
NA-SL-21{of deeds in Doriath in the dark forest
by the shadowy shores that shunned the light
where Esgalduin the Elf-river
by root-fencéd pools roofed with silence, {2165}
by deep eddies darkly gurgling,
flowed fleetly on past the frowning portals
of the Thousand Caves. Thus his thought recalled
the woodland ways where once of yore
Beleg the bowman had a boy guided {2170}
by slade and slope and swampy thicket
neath trees enchanted;}of deeds in forest then his tongue faltered
and his tale was stilled.>

NA-TI-26<Sil77 In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favour with Orodreth, … Therefore they gave him dwarf-mail, to guard him; and in a grim mood he found also in the armouries a dwarf-mask all gilded, and he put it on before battle, and his enemies fled before his face. NA-EX-50 <Ap Narn For Túrin would not wear the Helm again "lest it reveal him".>
NA-EX-51 <Ap Narn Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, saying that he had been in Angband, and knew somewhat of the might of Morgoth, and of his designs. "Petty victories will prove profitless at the last," he said; …

… They did not hold back the men from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad."
"But they suffered greater woe than if that field had not been fought," said Gwindor.>
NA-EX-52<editorial bridge And about that time the Lay tells:

><Lay At Túrin's sorrow
one marvelled and was moved, a maiden fair
the frail Finduilas that Failivrin, {2175}
the glimmering sheen on the glassy pools
of Ivrin's lake the Elves in love
had named anew. By night she pondered
and by day wondered what depth of woe
lay locked in his heart his life marring; {2180}
for the doom of dread and death that had fallen
on Beleg the bowman in unbroken silence
Túrin warded, nor might tale be won
of NA-RG-99{Flinding}[Gwindor] the faithful of their fare and deeds
in the waste together. Now waned her love {2185}
for the form and face furrowed with anguish,
for the bended back and broken strength,
the wistful eyes and the withered laughter
of NA-RG-100{Flinding}[Gwindor] the faithful, though filled was her heart
with deepwelling pity and dear friendship. {2190}

of that land that is lit by no light of Earth, {2210}
by no moon nor sun, down mazy ways
to the black abysmal brink of waking.>

NA-EX-53 <Ap Narn Finduilas the daughter of Orodreth was golden-haired after the manner of the house of Finarfin, and Túrin began to take pleasure in the sight of her and in her company; for she reminded him of his kindred and the women of Dor-lómin in his father's house. …

… Why should I be glad, who have lost all to you?"
But Túrin did not understand these words, and did but guess that Gwindor begrudged him his place in the heart and counsels of the King.>
NA-TI-27<Sil77 Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; … Though he be indeed agarwaen son of úmarth, his right name is Túrin son of Húrin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed. Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! Is it not written in me?'
Then Finduilas sat long in thought{; but at the last she said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'}.>
NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn "Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor," she said[ at last]. "You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. Must I now be put to double shame to reveal the truth to you? …

… "Thúrin Adanedhel, why did you hide your name from me? Had I known who you were I should not have honoured you less, but I should better have understood your grief."
"What do you mean?" he said. "Whom do you make me?"
"Túrin son of Húrin Thalion, captain of the North.">
NA-TI-28 <Sil77 Now when Túrin learnt from Finduilas of what had passed, he was wrathful, and he said to Gwindor: 'In love I hold you for rescue and safe-keeping. But now you have done ill to me, friend, to betray my right name, and call my doom upon me, from which I would lie hid.'
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'
NA-EX-55<editorial bridge And of Túrins Sorrows at this time it is told in the Lay:

><LayFrom woe unhealed the wounded heart
of Túrin the tall was turned to her.


'O! hands unholy, O! heart of sorrow,
O! outlaw whose evil is yet unatoned,
wilt thou, troth-breaker, a treason new
to thy burden bind; thy brother-in-arms,
NA-RG-101{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] thus foully betray, {2230}
who thy madness tended in mortal perils,
to thy waters of healing thy wandering feet
did lead at the last to lands of peace,
where his life is rooted and his love dwelleth?
O! stained hands his hope steal not!' {2235}

Thus love was fettered in loyal fastness
and coldly clad in courteous word;
yet he would look and long for her loveliness,
in her gentle words his joy finding,
her face watching when he feared no eye {2240}
might mark his mood. One marked it all -
Failivrin's face, the fleeting gleams,
like sun through clouds sailing hurriedly
over faded fields, that flickered and went out
as Túrin passed; the tremulous smiles, {2245}
his grave glances out of guarded shade,
his sighs in secret - one saw them all,
NA-RG-102{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin], who had found his home
and lost his love to the lying years,
he watched and wondered, no word speaking, {2250}
and his heart grew dark 'twixt hate and pity,
bewildered, weary, in the webs of fate.

… Of the host of iron {2270}
came tale and tidings ever treading nearer;
Orcs unnumbered to the East of Narog
roamed and ravened on the realm's borders,
the might of Morgoth was moved abroad.
No ambush stayed them; the archers yielded {2275}
each vale by vale{, though venomed arrows}.>

NA-TI-29 <Sil77 When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms. Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas; and though Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he fell into dishonour and none heeded him, for his strength was small and he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.
* * *
In that time of respite and hope, when because of the deeds of the Mormegil the power of Morgoth was stemmed west of Sirion, Morwen fled at last from Dor-lómin with Nienor her daughter, and adventured the long journey to Thingol's halls. There new grief awaited her, for she found Túrin gone, and to Doriath there had come no tidings since the Dragon-helm had vanished from the lands west of Sirion; but Morwen remained in Doriath with Nienor as guests of Thingol and Melian, and were treated with honour.
Now it came to pass, when four hundred and ninety-five years had passed since the rising of the Moon, in the spring of the year, there came to Nargothrond two Elves, named Gelmir and Arminas NA-EX-56 {; they were of Angrod's people, but since the Dagor Bragollach they dwelt in the south with Círdan the Shipwright. From their far journeys they brought tidings of a great mustering of Orcs and evil creatures under the eaves of Ered Wethrin and in the Pass of Sirion; and they told also that Ulmo had come to Círdan, giving warning that great peril drew nigh to Nargothrond.
'Hear the words of the Lord of Waters!' said they to the King. 'Thus he spoke to Círdan the Shipwright: 'The Evil of the North has defiled the springs of Sirion, and my power withdraws from the fingers of the flowing waters. But a worse thing is yet to come forth. Say therefore to the Lord of Nargothrond: Shut the doors of the fortress and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate."'
Orodreth was troubled by the dark words of the messengers, but Túrin would by no means hearken to these counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down; for he was become proud and stern, and would order all things as he wished.}>
<Ap Narn of the people of Finarfin, and said that they had an errand to the Lord of Nargothrond. They were brought before Túrin; but Gelmir said: "It is to Orodreth, NA-EX-56.5{Finarfin's son}[Felagund’s heir], that we would speak,"

Then Gelmir and Arminas departed, and went back to the South: but despite Túrin's taunts they would gladly have awaited battle beside their kin, and they went only because Círdan had bidden them under the command of Ulmo to bring back word to him of Nargothrond and of the speeding of their errand there. And Orodreth was much troubled by the words of the messengers; but all the more fell became the mood of Túrin, and he would by no means listen to their counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down. For so much at least of the words of Ulmo were read aright.>

NA-TI-30 <Sil77 Soon afterwards Handir Lord of Brethil was slain, for the Orcs invaded his land, and Handir gave them battle; but the Men of Brethil were worsted, and driven back into their woods. …

Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Túrin, and the heart of the host was upheld, as he rode on the right hand of Orodreth. NA-EX-57 <GA Túrin in the battle wore the Dragon-helm.> But greater far was the host of Morgoth than any scouts had told, and none but Túrin defended by {his dwarf-mask} [the Dragon-helm] could withstand the approach of Glaurung; and the Elves were driven back and pressed by the Orcs into the field of Tumhalad, between Ginglith and Narog, and there they were penned. On that day all the pride and host of Nargothrond withered away; and Orodreth was slain in the forefront of the battle, and Gwindor son of Guilin was wounded to the death. NA-EX-57.5{But Túrin came to his aid, and all fled before him; and he bore Gwindor out of the rout, and escaping into a wood there laid him on the grass.} <GA; commentary §275 Then Túrin came to him and all fled him, and he lifted Gwindor and bore him out of battle and he swam the Narog and bore Gwindor to a wood of trees. But Glaurung went down east of Narog and hastened on to Nargothrond with a great number of Orcs.>
Then Gwindor said to Túrin: 'Let bearing pay for bearing! …

And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!'
Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame; but Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. NA-EX-58 <Ap Narn {and}And Glaurung, desiring to rid Túrin of {its}the aid and protection of the Dragon-helm (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.
But Túrin answered: "Thou liest, and knowest it. For this image was made in scorn of thee; and while there is one to bear it doubt shall ever assail thee, lest the bearer deal thee thy doom."
"Then it must await a master of another name," said Glaurung; "for Túrin son of Húrin I do not fear. Otherwise is it. For he has not the hardihood to look me in the face, openly."
And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.> {Without fear Túrin looked into them as he raised up the sword; and}And straightway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was halted moveless. …

… and great was his anguish; but his heart being hot with the lies of Glaurung, and seeing ever in his mind the Orcs burning the house of Húrin or putting Morwen and Nienor to torment, he held on his way, and turned never aside.>

NA-EX-42: The subheading “Beleg” is taken from the Lay. After some consideration I found it more fitting to use the old canton-headings of the Lay then to invite new subheadings, as I had done for my proposed chapter structure.

NA-TI-21: The healing of Beleg was otherwise accomplished in the Lay, so that we have to take the account of the Sil77 here.

NA-EX-43; -45; -47; -48; -49: Starting with Belegs departure in search for Túrin until the arrival of Túrin and Gwindor in Nargothrond the Lay is the fullest source text we have. Therefore from here I tried to take as much of it into the body of our text as possible.

NA-EX-44: I did not like a half line to start with, therefore I in cooperated the last half line form the sentence before the one I started with.

NA-RG-01: I don’t see a problem here with the replacement. In the following regular changes I will not make a comment if it doesn’t seems problematic for me.

NA-RG-02: The reference might be obscure by the replacement, but I don’t think that is to bad here.

NA-RG-03: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “fleeing“ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-03: In the Lay Beleg was a Noldo of Côr, but he can not be so in our version. Thus I changed the reference. “Elves of Thingol” might be a bit blocky but I think it works.

NA-TI-22: The former history of Gwindor in the Nirneath was not present in the Lay. Therefore we must add this passages here. It seems one of the passages were a reformation of the prose text into alliterative verses might be very nice.

NA-RG-06: The reference to the Valar is not easy to understand with “greats”. Any better idea someone?

NA-RG-07: „great-born“ is problematic. But I found it more or less fitting for a noble Noldo.

NA-RG-07.5: Here at least we lose one alliteration.

NA-RG-09: Now better replacement for Flinding found here.

NA-RG-12, NA-RG-13 & NA-RG-14: Gwindor does not work well.

NA-SL-04: The plundering of “Gnomish Lords” is out of picture in our text. But the “homesteads of Man and Elves” such as the woodman south of Teaglin or the Elves of Annael’s following do fit in our version, I think.

NA-SL-05: The replacement is not good, but better then nothing. This line needs some further thought.

NA-RG-14.5: The reference is unclear, but war-„god“ is no longer appropriate for anyone. Thus I changed it.

NA-RG-15.5, NA-RG-17 & NA-RG-18: At first I had the bad joke „Friend Gwin’“, but the new replacement is more serious.

NA-SL-06 & NA-TI-23: Here the story of the Sil77, were Túrin is bound to a tree must be taken so that the line of him laying face down must go and we have to add some passages from Sil77. Again it would be nice if we could reform the prose passage to verse.

NA-EX-46: The rescue of the Dragon-helm from the Orc-camp must be added if we will try to in cooperate the later history of the helm.

NA-RG-20: No good solution found for this line.

NA-RG-21: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “feet“ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-07: The hole passages is build on the model of the Elves as small, nibble and lucent that Tolkien later hated so much.

NA-RG-22: The lose of one alliteration here seems not avoidable, but does not seem to bad in the resulting line.

NA-RG-25, NA-RG-26, NA-RG-27 & NA-RG-29: I found no good solution for this line, as for so many were Flinding/Fuilin is used in the “rhyming”.

NA-RG-28: The reference to the halls of the Moon was obscure even in the original Lay. The halls of Mandos is appropriate in sense.

NA-RG-30 & NA-RG-31: It would be good if we could find replacements for “fear“ and “faithful-hearted” which alliterate in “g”.

NA-RG-32, NA-RG-32.5 & NA-RG-33: Further places were Gwindor does not really work.

NA-EX-47.5: I wanted the name of the bow. And this is the place were it is named in Sil77.

NA-RG-35: Here I think „Greats“ is understandable.

NA-RG-36: The faithful friend seems a good replacement for me.

NA-RG-38: the „folk of faerie“ would be in sense best replaced by „folk of Elves“ but since it was the army of Fingon (including his elves and the men of Dor-lómin) that had the greatest loss at least in the western part of the battle were the hill of slain was later build, I found Fingon a good replacement.

NA-SL-08: Nan-Dungortheb is clearly in our version not in the Ered Wethrin, so the reference to that name I skipped. The land of dread phantoms that they now pass is in my view round about the land of Tol Sirion and the smallest part of the pass of Sirion were once Sauron had shown his might in corrupting the land.

NA-RG-43 & NA-RG-44: I am not sure about this lines at all. Some good ideas anyone?

NA-RG-46: It seems in the course of numbering I lost that one. So do not search for it.

NA-SL-09: Nargothrond was not build by fugitives of the battle.

NA-SL-10: The home of Beren and Lúthien is in our version not in the High Faroth.

NA-SL-11: This line must go since we learn in the story of Felagund and Beren before Sauron that at least the name and rough placement of Nargothrond and who ruled their was known to the enemies, and that such knowledge was even expected from Orks, as Felagund feign to be.

NA-RG-53: I think we need the name here again and the replacement seems to fit more or less.

NA-RG-56: See NA-RG-28 above.

NA-RG-57: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “feet“ which alliterates in “g” as in NA-RG-21.

NA-SL-12: Nargothrond was no longer founded by the Fëanorians but by Felagund.

NA-TI-24: The episode of the sword carried by Gwindor and put here into Túrins hand and his account of Húrin in Angband is absent from the Lay. Therefore we have to add it from the Sil77. It would be nice if we could rewrite it into verse but in this case the interruption seems long enough, so that it can even stand as prose.

NA-RG-64: NA-RG-57: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “folk“ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-12.5: If Túrin is concealing his name in Nargothrond Gwindor should not reveal it here.

NA-RG-65: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “feet“ which alliterates in “g” as in NA-RG-21 & NA-RG-57.

NA-RG-67: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “freely“ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-13: This does not fit the meter. Better solutions are needed. But I could not find any.

NA-RG-69: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “fiercely“ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-14: Again, we have to change the Lay because Túrin concealed his name in Nargothrong.

NA-RG-70 & NA-RG-71: This does not fit the meter. Better solutions are needed. But I could not find any.

NA-RG-72 & NA-RG-73: I am not sure about this lines at all. Some good ideas anyone?

NA-RG-74: Some better replacement must be searched here.

NA-RG-76: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “freely“ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-15: Again, we have to change the Lay because Túrin concealed his name in Nargothrong.

NA-SL-16 & NA-SL-17: I changed the reference of lines 1958 to 1963 from Túrin to Gwindor. Alternatively we could skip the lines as I have done with 1974 to 1983.

NA-RG-78: Some better replacement must be searched here.

NA-TI-25: At this place I think it is time to insert Túrins choosing of a new name. If some one sees any way in cooperate it into the Lay I would be glad.

NA-RG-80 & NA-RG-81: Some better replacement must be searched here.

NA-RG-83 to NA-RG-85: The hole complex of the trees is highly difficult. If no good solution might be found we have to consider to skip it completely.

NA-RG-87: The replacement of Côr with “the city” is not good. May be someone can find some better replacement.

NA-RG-89: Again Guilin does break the meter.

NA-SL-18: Since Túrin concealed his name he is not known to be the son of Húrin. The decent from Hithlum is also not clear since he resembles the House of Hador not so much.

NA-RG-91: And Guilin for the next time.

NA-RG-92 & NA-RG-93: This is a good example of how it can work when both names are sundered fare enough.

NA-RG-95 & NA-RG-96: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “friendship “ which alliterates in “g”.

NA-SL-19: Halmir as a son of Orodreth was never again mentioned and is not included in any genealogical table of the house of Finarfin. Thus I think we have to skip him. By the way: For me it seems that Finduilas had taken the painful part of Halmir go-Orodreth’ role as she was pierced to a tree by the Orcs.

NA-SL-20: Since we have already let Túrin take Gurthang he can not be hungry for the sword hilt here.

NA-SL-21: Since Túrin did not reveal his former history to the Elves of Nargothrond he can not tell about his time in Doriath. I meant to change the passage in the sense that when he was asked to tell about his former live he did not do so. But I am not sure if I was successful.

NA-TI-26: The Sil77 is all we have here, I think. I did not check if the source of this passage is older and can be found in one of the Quenta’s.

NA-EX-50: If the Helm is present we must give a reason why he did not wear it and the Appendix of the Narn did provide use with it. The quotation-marks in the original did show that the text with in was original JRR Tolkien. We could skip them but I found that in our version they could mean that they are quoted from Túrin.

NA-EX-51: I hesitated a bit were to put this passages. We have not jet heard what counsel Túrin gave, thus we could consider a later placement, but the passages makes Túrins counsel clear so that I found this place best.

NA-EX-52: This passages of the Lay could also be put in a bit later inserted into NA-EX-53.

NA-EX-53: It could be considered to insert to this long passage parts of the Lay that I have put in earlier and later.

NA-TI-27: The first sentence is more or less repeated from the part of the Lay that we have taken thus we could consider to skip that sentence.

NA-EX-54: The place for this insertion and what I should replace is given in the note accompanying the passages in the Appendix to the Narn.

NA-TI-28: Here we return to the Sil77 following the notes in the Appendix to the Narn.

NA-EX-55: The insertion of this part of the Lay might overdone. But I do not think so.

NA-RG-101 & NA-RG-102: It would be good if we could find a replacement for “foully“ and “found” which alliterate in “g”.

NA-TI-29: The Sil77 is again the text we have to take for this part.

NA-EX-56: The account of the visit of Arminas and Gelmir in the Narn is more elaborated and is therefore taken here.

NA-EX-56.5: Orodreth is not Finarfins son, but his grandson. I found it more fitting to call him Finrods heir, since he inherited the kingship of Nargothrond from Felagund.

NA-TI-30: From here to the end of this section I took again the Sil77 without checking if the source of the text could be found. It might be that at least parts of it could be identified in GA or in on of the Quenta’s.

NA-EX-57 & NA-EX-58: This is the insertion of the later story of the Dragon-helm into the story.

NA-EX-57.5: The special info that is provided here should be included. I ever had asked myself how Túrin could bring Gwindor out of the battle if the host was pinned in the angle. Here we are given a solution for this problem.


So fare my initial comments. I hope some of them are at least helpful to understand what I had in mind when I worked out my version of the text.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I would like to encourage all lovers of Tolkiens poesies to participate in the discussion of the needed changes in the parts of the poem that we took up into our version. They are the most "newbe" friendly discussions we will ever have down here in the “Revised Silmarillion Project”. If the forcing reason for a change is unclear it can be explained, but for the exact way to in cooperate the change into the meter a good knowledge of the English language and a love for poesies is a much better basis than a profound knowledge of Tokiens work.
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Old 04-07-2005, 11:11 AM   #2
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In

Quote:
NA-EX-53 <Ap Narn Finduilas the daughter of Orodreth was golden-haired after the manner of the house of Finarfin, and Túrin began to take pleasure in the sight of her and in her company; for she reminded him of his kindred and the women of Dor-lómin in his father's house....
"But you are kingly," said she, "even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant. And I do not think that Agarwaen is your true name, nor is it fit for you, Adanedhel. I call you Thurin, the Secret."
Because in our version Gil-Galad is her brother, we should make the following change:
Quote:
"But you are kingly," said she, "even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin{; I would I had a brother so valiant}. And I do not think that Agarwaen is your true name, nor is it fit for you, Adanedhel. I call you Thurin, the Secret."
Eliminate the brother reference in here.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:40 PM   #3
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I took up Maedhros very good fetch as NA-EX-53.5.

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Old 10-06-2005, 08:20 PM   #4
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Comments up to NA-RG-18

NA-RG-01:
Quote:
he knew not the NA-RG-01{Gnomes}[Noldor] of need delving
Way back in the original FoG thread, jallanite wrote:

Quote:
Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. "Gnomes"; was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor.
This was our policy throughout FoG, and I think it was a good one. So I would replace "Gnomes" with "Elves" save where "Elves" would not fit or where "Gnomes" is needed for alliterative reasons (in which case, of course, "Noldor" will suffice).

But the present example is borderline on both counts. It is, of course, specifically the Noldor who are delving for Morgoth, not the Elves in general. But as the Noldor are Elves, the sentence remains correct (at least technically) with "Elves". And while "Gnomes" does alliterate here, it is the second stress in a "full" alliterative line; changing it to "Elves" would still leave a "simple" line, with "knew" alliterating with "need".

I guess that, considering the combined doubt of the two points, we had probably best use "Noldor" for this particular instance.

NA-RG-02:
Quote:
who jewels and gems that rejoiced the NA-RG-02{Gods}[Great]
Do we have a precedent for the use of "Great" as a generic reference to the Valar (as opposed to its use as a reference to the Aratar)? If not, I'd rather simply use "Valar" here.

NA-RG-02.5:
Quote:
'Twas NA-RG-02.5{a Gnome}[a Noldo] he beheld on the heaped needles
Here, however, we ought to use "Elf".

NA-RG-03:
Quote:
NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] fleeing in anguish
Unless I'm quite mistaken, "go-" disappeared entirely as a patronymic prefix, though YO, YON- = "son" (its origin) does appear in the Etymologies. But Etymologies makes no reference to a patronymic prefix in this entry, as it surely would have had the prefix been retained.

We could of course use:

Quote:
NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-} [son of] {Fuilin}[Guilin] fleeing in anguish
The other option would be to institute a general practice of replacing patronymic prefixes with the suffix -ion, which (I think) is valid in both Sindarin and Quenya.

But the bigger problem is that the name change robs the line of alliteration. We must either find a replacement for "fleeing" or for "anguish" that begins with "g". All I can think of at the moment is "grief":

Quote:
NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-} [son of] {Fuilin}[Guilin] in grief fleeing
. . . which, however, does not quite preserve the meaning.

I suppose another option is to split "Gwindor" from "Guilin" somehow, e.g.:

Quote:
NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] fleeing, {go- Fuilin}[Guilin's son]
.

I'm not sure whether "Guilin's son" is a satisfactory half-line or not. It does at least have the requisite two stresses.

NA-SL-03:
Quote:
the ancient tongue of the Elves of NA-SL-03{Tûn}[Thingol];
This loses the alliteration, but I suppose it's okay since we still have "ancient" with "Elves".

NA-TI-22: Findegil wrote:
Quote:
It seems one of the passages were a reformation of the prose text into alliterative verses might be very nice.
I'm afraid I don't follow you here.

NA-RG-06:
Quote:
and ye glorious NA-RG-06{Gods}[Greats]! How gleam their eyes,
Here I would just use "Valar", leaving simple alliteration between "glorious" and "gleam":
Quote:
and ye glorious NA-RG-06{Gods}[Valar]! How gleam their eyes,
The extra syllable is not good, but I don't think it's a serious problem.

NA-RG-07:
Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin]? Shall {free}great-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Noldo] {900}
This line is problematic. There is not only the problem of alliteration but also the "go-", which here cannot, I think, simply be replaced by "son of". What about:

Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Guilin's son]? Shall Gwindor the free- born (Gnome}
NA-RG-08:
Quote:
the renown of the NA-RG-08{Gnomes}[Noldor] of Nargothrond! '
I think we could make this "Elves", since we still have simple alliteration between "renown" and "Nargothrond". The extra syllable of "Noldor" makes the first half-line a bit unwieldy.

NA-RG-11:
Quote:
'No noise I hear', the NA-RG-11 Gnome}[Noldo] answered,
Here, however, "Noldo" is needed for alliteration.

NA-SL-04:
Quote:
of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[Man and Elves] by night beleaguered {985}
Should be:

Quote:
of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[Men and Elves] by night beleaguered {985}
But I'm a bit doubtful about it. Surely there are no longer any Men or Elves living in Taur-nu- Fuin. I suppose, though, the line could be read as referring to abandoned dwellings.

NA-SL-05:
Quote:
that NA-SL-05 {Blodrin Bor}had [Húrin]'s son to his bane {guided}hauled {990}
I may be wrong, but I don't think that simple alliteration of the form A X X A (where the Xs are non-alliterating stresses and the As are alliterating stresses) are allowed. Also, the Orc-band is not exactly hauling Turin to his bane, since in the event Turin survives. Perhaps:

Quote:
that NA-SL-05 {Blodrin Bor}[Húrin]'s son {to his bane} {guided}had hauled in bonds {990}
Quote:
{to}from the wood-marches, by the welded hosts
I don't follow this.

NA-RG-15:
Quote:
'Follow me, NA-RG-15{Flinding}[Friend, dear], from the forest cursed!
I think this could just be:

Quote:
'Follow me, NA-RG-15{Flinding}[friend], from the forest cursed!
NA-RG-15.5:
Quote:
and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[the Friend] followed fearful after him {1030}
I'd rather simply use "Gwindor" and leave it with simple alliteration:

Quote:
and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[Gwindor] followed fearful after him {1030}
NA-RG-17:
Quote:
Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}[the Friend] fiercely, though fear shook him: {1105}
Here again I think we can use:

Quote:
Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}[Gwindor] fiercely, though fear shook him: {1105}
NA-RG-18:
Quote:
and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[the Friend] there laid his flickering lamp
If we do as I suggest and use "Gwindor" earlier instead of "Friend", the reference here will be unclear. So I would make it:

Quote:
and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[his friend] there laid his flickering lamp

Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-07-2005 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:48 PM   #5
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A Few More Comments - up to NA-RG-24

NA-TI-23:
Quote:
NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness}NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon- helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him >. But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him.
Why is "he was senseless ins a sleep of great weariness" removed? I would say:

Quote:
NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and he was senseless in a sleep of great wearinessNA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 [T]he {dragon- helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him >. But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him.
The inserted sentence about the Dragon-helm is a bit awkward, I confess, but I think it's necessary to tell that Turin was sleeping.

NA-EX-47:
Quote:
But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him. NA-EX- 47<editorial bridge But the Lay tells that
I also think that it's awkward to begin two sentences in a row with "But". Maybe:

Quote:
But though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX- 47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that
NA-RG-21:
Quote:
and NA-RG-21{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] the feet claspéd
Again, I think there's a problem with "go-" in addition to the alliterative problem. All that I can think of at the moment is:

Quote:
and NA-RG-21faithful{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the feet claspéd
NA-RG-23.5:
Quote:
and the names of knives and NA-RG-23.5{Gnomish}[Elvish] blades
This leaves a non-alliterating line. Maybe:

Quote:
and the names of NA-RG-23.5 Elvish knives and {Gnomish} blades
Quote:
he uttered o'er it: even Ogbar's spear
and the glaive of Gaurin whose gleaming stroke
did rive the rocks of Rodrim's hall;
the sword of Saithnar, and the silver blades
of the enchanted children of chains forged
in their deep dungeon; the dirk of Nargil,
the knife of the North in Nogrod smithied;
the sweeping sickle of the slashing tempest,
the lambent lightning's leaping falchion
even Celeg Aithorn that shall cleave the world.
This passage needs some thought. These names, of course, do not appear again. That certainly does not mean that they must be excised, and I certainly see the temptation to keep them. But I wonder about the Elvish.

NA-RG-24:
Quote:
ere NA-RG-24{Flinding}[Gwindor] knew what fared that night,
I may be wrong, but I don't think that X A X A lines are allowed (A being alliterating stresses and X non-alliterating). I suppose we could do:

Quote:
ere NA-RG-24{Flinding}[Gwindor] knew what {fared} that night fared,
I think that this kind of line (X A A X) is permissible. Again, though, I may be wrong.
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Old 10-08-2005, 07:18 PM   #6
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NA-RG-01: In this particular case Noldor is definitley needed, since it refers to the knowledge of the blue lamps, that were a special sign of the Noldor. It could not been said that Beleg did not know Elves.
Quote:
Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. "Gnomes"; was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor.
This was before my time here, but I have of course read it. I have some concerns about it: I agree that it is nice "artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli". But I don't think Elves is a good replacment for Gnomes. The beter choice would as a replacment for "Gnomes" would be "Displaced Noldor" or "Exiled Noldor" (would a valid short form for thsi bei "Exiles"?) and not "Elves". The Gnomes were a subgroupe of the Noldor. Thus what was done so far was to change a refference from a very special subgroupe to a very common overgroupe.
As jet the discussion had never again comeback to that issue but now I think we should think about it again.
"Exiled Nodor" could not often be used, since it is to blocky, but we should check it some times as a perfect replacment in sense.

NA-RG-02:I do not know if "Greats" was ever used for all the Valar. But here the reference is changed from a larger group to a subgroup of the fromer.

NA-RG-02.5: "an Elf" is okay here if we use "Noldor" in NA-RG-01 since then the reader dose already know that it is a Noldo Beleg is locking at.

NA-RG-03:
Quote:
NA-RG-03{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor] fleeing{ in anguish}[, Guilin's son]
Is okay.


NA-SL-03: Is "Doriath" any better then "Thingol"?

NA-TI-22: I agree that we can hardly hope to do this, thus we will not try it.

NA-RG-06: Agreed.

NA-RG-07: What about:

Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Guilin's son]{ go-Fuilin}? Shall free-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]
NA-RG-07: Agreed.

NA-SL-04: Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
But I'm a bit doubtful about it. Surely there are no longer any Men or Elves living in Taur-nu- Fuin. I suppose, though, the line could be read as referring to abandoned dwellings.
I never thought that the dwellings were in Taur-nu-Fuin! I thought of areas like the woods south of Taeglin or the old lands of the Magor south of the Ered Wethrin where Edain might still have lived and of Grey Elves like to Annael maybe anywhere in roughly the same area.

NA-SL-05: Agreed, "to" is realy still okay.

NA-RG-15, NA-RG-15.5, NA-RG-17, NA-RG-18: Agreed.

NA-TI-23, NA-EX-47: I thought it was a bit overdone to hold "he was senseless ins a sleep of great weariness" since exactly that was explained in the sentence before. But If you don't think so we will hold that phrase. But what about:
Quote:
NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree{; and all}. All about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. He[/u]{he} was senseless in a sleep of great weariness{. But}[u], but though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that
NA-RG-21, NA-RG-23.5, NA-RG-24: Agreed.

Spellnames: I see your point. But it seems to me you are the best of use to check the elvish.

It seems to me, I am no great help with the poem.
I had hoped very much that we would find some help with this alliterative and (later) ryming issues.

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Old 10-09-2005, 04:54 PM   #7
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Comments up to NA-RG-37 and discussion


NA-RG-25, -26, -27: These are rather problematic. For the first, we might try:

Quote:
Flight he sought not at NA-RG-25{Flinding}[the Noldo] leaping
Though I think "Noldo" sounds a bit awkward in that context.

But for NA-RG-26 and -27 I'm completely at loss. If I stare at them long enough, I suppose I might come up with something.

NA-RG-29:
Quote:
Though NA-RG-29{Flinding}[the Freind] shook him, he felt it not:
"Friend" has no apparent referent here, since Beleg is dead, and Gwindor is not yet Turin's friend. Maybe:

Quote:
Though NA-RG-29{Flinding}[the Noldo] shook him, he {felt} knew it not:
NA-RG-30: Maybe:
Quote:
NA-RG-30{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}[son of Guilin] with {fear} [grief] speechless

NA-RG-31: Maybe:
Quote:
NA-RG-31{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the faithful{-hearted}, Guilin's son
NA-RG-32:
Quote:
NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] answered he, and fear left him
I think this is good, but it might be better phrased thus:

Quote:
NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] he, answered and fear left him
NA-RG-32.5: I think I'd make this:
Quote:
Fainting NA-RG-32.5{Flinding}[Gwindor] there fought with him,
. . . leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-33: I think we could use:
Quote:
did NA-RG-33{Flinding}[Gwindor] fashion; where he fell sadly {1400}
That is, if I'm correct about X A A X lines being acceptable. If not, we could simply rearrange it:

Quote:
{did} NA-RG-33{Flinding}[Gwindor] fashioned; where he fell sadly {1400}
NA-EX-47.5:
Quote:
NA-EX-47.5{His bow laid he black beside him,}[Belthronding his bow laid he black beside him]
Now I'm going to show my ignorance of Sindarin (Quenya's more my thing) - I'm not sure whether "Belthronding" is stressed on the first or the second syllable. If it's on the second, and if I'm wrong about X A A X lines being permissible, then we'd have to rearrange it thus:

Quote:
NA-EX-47.5{His bow laid he black beside him,}[His bow Belthronding laid he black beside him]
NA-RG-35: I agree that "Great" is clear here, and is better than Valar since it retains the crossed alliteration.

NA-RG-36: If we follow my earlier suggestions then we can simply un-capitalize "friend" here:
Quote:
but for NA-RG-36{Flinding }the faithful [friend] he had fared to death,
NA-RG-37: Here I'm tempted to use "Elf" rather than Noldo, and accept simple alliteration:
Quote:
Renewed in that NA-RG-37{Gnome}[Elf] of Nargothrond {1425}
On to the old discussion:

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
This was before my time here, but I have of course read it. I have some concerns about it: I agree that it is nice "artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli". But I don't think Elves is a good replacment for Gnomes. The beter choice would as a replacment for "Gnomes" would be "Displaced Noldor" or "Exiled Noldor" (would a valid short form for thsi bei "Exiles"?) and not "Elves". The Gnomes were a subgroupe of the Noldor. Thus what was done so far was to change a refference from a very special subgroupe to a very common overgroupe.
As jet the discussion had never again comeback to that issue but now I think we should think about it again.
"Exiled Nodor" could not often be used, since it is to blocky, but we should check it some times as a perfect replacment in sense.
Yes, "Elf" does not mean the same thing as "Gnome". But I think I agree with jallanite on this. "Noldo" and "Gnome" are different kinds of words; "Noldo" is a more formal, pedantic kind of term. In ordinary discourse it seems not to be used casually or colloquially, as a means of referring to a person. More often than not, the particular sense of "Gnome" (i.e. its literal meaning = exiled Noldo") is not relevant to the passage.

So I think that, while a sentence like "The Gnomes are exiles" must of course be rendered "The Noldor are exiles", a sentence like "The Gnome drew his sword" would be better rendered: "The Elf drew his sword."

Your suggestion of "Exile(s)" is an excellent one and I think it could be used in place of "Noldo(r)" in many cases of the former kind, and perhaps even in place of "Elf"/"Elves" in many cases of the latter.

NA-RG-02: Findegil wrote:
Quote:
I do not know if "Greats" was ever used for all the Valar. But here the reference is changed from a larger group to a subgroup of the fromer.
Reading this I'm not sure whether you agree with my preference for "Valar" here or not.

NA-SL-03:
Quote:
Is "Doriath" any better then "Thingol"?
I think "Thingol" is probably better, since "Doriath" introduces two extra syllables and "Thingol" only one.

NA-RG-07:
Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Guilin's son]{ go-Fuilin}? Shall free-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]
The problem with this is that the alliteration is then A X X A. I'm fairly sure that simple alliteration with the last stress alliterating is not permissible. I could be wrong, though.

NA-SL-04: Sorry; I read this too quickly and thought for a moment it was describing their passage through the forest, not their journey to the forest in retrospect.

NA-TI-23: Again, sorry; I don't know what I was thinking when I read this before. You're right that we should delete the sentence since we just said the same thing.

About the spell names: It's difficult to know whether the Elvish is still valid, since we don't know what the names are supposed to mean. I'm not an expert on Sindarin phonology, but I suspect that "Ogbar" at least may be obselete. I will have to do some research.

But another point gives me some doubt about Beleg's spell. In the Lay he sings the spell because Turin's bonds cannot be cut by normal weapons. And it is by reason of the might of the spell that his sword cuts so easily through the fetters. But in our version his sword is Anglachel, already a mighty blade with strange powers. I cannot recall whether it is explicitly said that Anglachel and Anguirel are capable of cleaving iron, but considering the absence of the spell from later versions, it seems likely that the special nature of Beleg's sword was considered sufficient for the severing of the bonds.

I wish we had an expert in alliterative verse to help us with these sections. Two questions we must resolve are whether X A A X and A X X A alliteration are permissible. I can do some research on this, though I am at the moment separated from the one book I own that might have the answers.
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:42 PM   #8
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I wish we had an expert in alliterative verse to help us with these sections.
I can only underline this! And I am so far from being an expert, that I feel nearly helpless about all the needed changes.

Therefore I will not mention simple agreement fartherone in the discussion.

NA-RG-29: A couple of lines above Gwindor had "cried: 'Magic of Morgoth! A! madness damned!/ with friends thou fightest!'" So I thought he might be called a freind of Turin already. But you suggestions sounds good and is clearer in its meaning.

NA-RG-32: I would prefer your first suggestion even if the grammar is agianst it.

NA-EX-47.5: Your rearangement sounds perfectly well for me.

Gnomes -> Elves or Exiles: I think we are at one mind in this now: No simple replacment but a checkup what term is best used in the context. When ever we reread or FoG in the "changes indicated version" we should have an open eye for this.

NA-RG-02: I was temped in this case to stick to "Great", since if the Valar as a whole do rejoice, then that is true as well for the Great in particular. But it is a minor point and Valar as a replacment works for me.

NA-RG-07: Sorry this was a misprint. I would have liked to suggest:
Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Guilin's son]? Shall {free}[great]-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]
NA-Ti-23: So we have:
Quote:
NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness} NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. But though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that
Spellnames: Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
... but considering the absence of the spell from later versions, it seems likely that the special nature of Beleg's sword was considered sufficient for the severing of the bonds.
I take your point. Anglachel is a special balde, but the absence of the wetting of the sword done with the uttering of spells sufficinet for such a occasion is most likley due to compression. Considering that BEleg had run all the way from Amon Rudh without sleep, and that on Amon Rudh he had surely done a lot of hard fighting with Anglachel it is more than likley that the blade was bit notchy. Thus with a false attemp with other blades on the fetters, it seems very likely to me that Beleg would wet the blade before using it in such a occasion.
In short I am still holding to the spells, even if they were not as neccesary as in the original poem.

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Old 10-12-2005, 07:48 PM   #9
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NA-RG-32: I put a critical comma in the wrong place in my last suggestion. It should have been:

Quote:
NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] he answered, and fear left him
. . . which I think sounds better than "answered he".

The spell: I suppose your reasoning makes sense. I am still a little unsure, but I can definitely see keeping the spell.

Further comments up to NA-RG-55

NA-RG-38: I agree with your use of "Fingon" in place of "Faery". But what do you make of the "seven kindreds"?

Quote:
where sleep the swords of seven kindreds,

I am not sure whether this is a reference to some earlier conception of the divisions of Men or Elves.

NA-RG-40:
Quote:
Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[the Friend] faltered, faintly stirring
I think we can just use:
Quote:
Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[Gwindor] faltered, faintly stirring
NA-SL-08: I agree with the deletion, but in view of it I would not start a new sentence at line 1481:

Quote:
There the twain enfolded phantom twilight {1475} and dim mazes dark, unholy NA-SL-08{, in Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadows secret, more old than Morgoth or the ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded West}. {1480} [B]but the ghostly dwellers of that grey valley
NA-RG-42: I would say:
Quote:
NA-RG-42{Flinding}[Gwindor] fancied, fell, unwholesome
NA-RG-44: We might use "Gwindor" here instead of "fearful" but I'm undecided on which is to be preferred - saving the precise sense or saving the alliteration.

NA-SL-09:
We must of course delete the reference to fugitives from the battle, but your line does not have the requisite alliteration. All I can think of at the moment is:

Quote:
NA-SL-09{that death and thraldom in the dreadful throes
of Nirnaith Ornoth, a number scanty, escaped unscathed.} Thence skirting wild [the wooded hills,]
There's a typo in line 1548 - "Nan-thatren" for "Nan-tathren".

NA-RG-51: This is a case where I'd go for "Elf" instead of "Noldo", leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-52: I would say:
Quote:
Then NA-RG-52{Flinding}[Gwindor] fearful lest fresh madness
NA-RG-53:
Quote:
NA-RG-53 {But Flinding the faithful}[The Faithful friend Gwindor] feared no longer;
If "friend" is considered a stress, then the first half-line is too long; if it's not, then it doesn't contribute to the alliterative scheme and is thus useless. So I would make it:

Quote:
NA-RG-53 {But Flinding the faithful}[But faithful Gwindor ] feared no longer;
NA-RG-55: This can be:
Quote:
and fared to NA-RG-55{Flinding}[Gwindor], and flung him down
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Old 10-12-2005, 07:50 PM   #10
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Also - I did some checking and found at least one source on the internet that says that X A A X alliteration is allowed. But I have yet to notice an example of it in Tolkien.
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:50 PM   #11
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NA-RG-32: Ok, "... answered he, ..." it will be then.

NA-RG-38: 7 kindreds: Fingon, Maedhros, Falathrim & Gwindor's, House of Hador, House of Haleth, Dwarves, Easterlings of Bor
That is not the only possible counting, but a possible one. And that is sufficient for sticking to the notation. By the way: What meaning had the 7 kindreds in the original poem?

NA-RG-44:
Quote:
of NA-RG-44{Flinding} the[ fearful] fugitive; in his face the morning
is nice. And I can't think that the exact sense is much changed.

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Old 10-15-2005, 09:01 PM   #12
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NA-RG-38: I don't know whether "seven" had some definite reference in the original; in any case, you're right that if we count properly, the number is suitable.

NA-RG-44: Okay, we can go with "fearful".

A few more comments for now:

NA-RG-57: I'm at a loss here; I can't think of anything except:

Quote:
NA-RG-57{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the faithful, to his feet striding.
But I think that now we are really stretching the "faithful" epithet.

NA-RG-58: I think that

Quote:
Whither, O NA-RG-58{Flinding}[friend], our feet now turn we,
. . . is fine now, since he really is Turin's friend. But no need for capitalization.

NA-RG-60: A straightforward Flinding>Gwindor substitution works here, I think:

Quote:
said NA-RG-60{Flinding}[Gwindor], 'my feet would fain wander,
NA-SL-12: I think we must phrase this:

Quote:
of Feanor}[that Finrod] founded {when they fled southward}] following Thingol;
. . . since alliteration on the last stress is not permitted (at least, that's my understanding). But I'm not sure that "following Thingol" is a suitable description for Finrod's founding of Nargothrond.

NA-RG-62: Here I would use "Elves" instead of "Noldor", since the sense is not hurt by it.

NA-RG-63: Again, I think "Gwindor" is a suitable substitute for "Flinding", leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-64: Perhaps we could use:

Quote:
NA-RG-64{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}, a Noldo of {the} Narog's folk {of Narog} {1780}
NA-SL-12.5: A minor typo; should be:

Quote:
and NA-SL-12.5{the son of Húrin}[a son of Men] his sworn comrade
NA-RG-65, -67: I'm at a loss for both of these.
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Old 10-16-2005, 03:22 PM   #13
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NA-SL-12: Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
But I'm not sure that "following Thingol" is a suitable description for Finrod's founding of Nargothrond.
I think it is not to bad. At least we have the story of Finrod being impressed by Menegroth and then asking Thingol for help.

NA-RG-65: What is about:
Quote:
Thither bent their steps
NA-RG-65{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}[son of Guilin], {whose feet}who going remembered {1810}
that white roadway.
NA-RG-67: I am lost on this one as well.

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Old 10-31-2005, 08:00 PM   #14
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Up to NA-SL-21

NA-RG-69: Another difficult one. I come up only with this:
Quote:
but {Flinding go-Fuiling} [the son of Guilin] {fiercely} savagely answered
Quote:
NA-RG-70 & NA-RG-71: This does not fit the meter. Better solutions are needed. But I could not find any.
I think these are fine.

NA-RG-73, -74, -76: Again, I'm lost.

NA-SL-15: I don't think that alliterating "heart" with "heart" is desirable. Perhaps:

Quote:
of NA-SL-15{Húrin Thalion}[the House of Hador], what heart in this throng
NA-SL-16: I think it would be preferable to delete these lines (1958 - 1964) rather than changing the reference from Turin to Gwindor.

NA-EX-49: I would make this:

Quote:
And the Lay tells of the feast at Gwindor's return:
NA-RG-80: I am tempted to suggest:

Quote:
the form and face of NA-RG-80{Fuilin's son} [the faithful Elf]
NA-RG-82: I think we should use the article:

Quote:
the folk of [b]NA-RG-82[b]{Faërie}[the Elves] in the first noontide
NA-RG-83, -84, -85: Where does "Culurien" come from? And is "Silpion" still valid? I thought "Telperion" replaced it. But I can't at the moment think of any way to save these lines, whatever the names of the Trees are.

NA-RG-87: I would just replace "Cor" with "Tirion".

NA-SL-18: I'm not sure about "chief friend of mine"; I don't think that retaining the word "chief" is desirable if in an altered meaning. Perhaps:

Quote:
'NA-SL-18{O Húrin's child chief of Hithlum,}[O Child of Men whom chance led hither,]
NA-RG-91: No idea here.

NA-RG-94: I think that "Valar" would be preferable to "Great", unless a precedent can be found for referring to the Valar this way.

NA-RG-95, -96: I wonder about:

Quote:
Thus NA-RG-95{Fuilin}[Guilin] and NA-RG-96{Flinding}[Gwindor] {friendship} [guest-kindliness] showed him,

The only possible problem there would be the length of the second half-line. But I don't think it's unreasonably long. Or perhaps some other way can be found of using "guest-kindliness" here; it's a good word and a perfect substitute for "friendship" in this context.

NA-RG-97: There's another spelling error here - should be "friends".

NA-SL-20: It's a minor point, but I don't think we need the accute accent on the second syllable of "handled". I wonder about "drawn and handled"; it sounds a little awkward to me, but I may be reading this too critically.

NA-SL-21: I would make line 2173:

Quote:
neath trees enchanted}of deeds in the forest; then his tongue faltered
But there is the further problem here that we cannot alliterate on the second accented syllable of the second half-line. I also wonder why they should ask him about deeds in a "forest" if they did not know that he had once lived in Doriath. We might try:

Quote:
neath trees enchanted}of his former deeds; then [faltered] his tongue {faltered}
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:33 PM   #15
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NA-RG-73: Not perfect but maybe better then nothing:
Quote:
NA-RG-73 and {Flinding}[Guilin’s son] knew it {at the feet}before the throne of the king
NA-RG-74: Isn't the reference here clear enough, so that we might drop the personal name:
Quote:
with the fleet-footed NA-RG-74{Fuilin's}fair youngling.
NA-RG-76: Not what I would like to have, but maybe an idea starter:
Quote:
'Tis NA-RG-76{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor son of Guilin], whose {faith}goodwill of yore
Na-SL-16: I agree that it is riscy to change line 1958-1961 in reference from Túrin to Gwindor, but I don't like to lose line 1961-1964. If we could find a new first half-line for 1961 we could delet 1958-1960. Otherwise I would rather change the reference then droop all the lines.

Na-RG-83 to Na-RG-85: What about:
Quote:
danced undying in the deep {pasture}past;
NA-RG-83{of the gardens of the Gods; there Glingol shone
and Bansil bloomed with beams shimmering,
mothwhite moonlight from its misty flowers;}
Na-RG-91 What about:
Quote:
Thus fate it fashioned that in NA-RG-91{Fuilin}[the friend]'s house
Na-RG-95 & Na-RG-96: I like your suggested line, and I don't think the second half-line is to long (if my counting is correct, it has even one sylabel less then the first half-line).

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Last edited by Findegil; 01-30-2006 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 11-04-2005, 06:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
NA-TI-26<Sil77 In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favour with Orodreth, … Therefore they gave him dwarf-mail, to guard him; and in a grim mood he found also in the armouries a dwarf-mask all gilded, and he put it on before battle, and his enemies fled before his face.
I'm doubtful about including the dwarf-mask. From HoMe XI (p. 144 in my edition):
Quote:
In the published Silmarillion (p.210) I adopted a passage from another text in the vast assemblage of the Narn papers, telling how Turin found in the armouries of Nargothrond ‘a dwarf-mask all gilded', and wore it into battle. It seems probable that this story arose at a stage when my father was treating the Dragon-helm as lost and out of the story (from the end of Dor-Cuarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, when Turin was taken by the Orcs), and I extended Turin's wearing of it to the battle of Tumhalad (p.212).
This suggests to me that the version wherein Turin finds a dwarf-mask in the armouries was superceded by the version that extends the story of the Dragon-helm to Nargothrond. In other words, I had thought that the dwarf-mask was only introduced by Tolkien because the Dragon- helm had been lost; when the story was changed so that the Dragon-helm was no longer lost, the dwarf-mask was dropped.

But I may be wrong. Again we are stung by the lack of the original Narn material.

NA-RG-101: I can think of no suitable synonym for "foully" alliterating in g. We might try:

Quote:
NA-RG-101{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}the faithful thus foully betray, {2230}
We are pushing it a bit with "the faithful" by now, but I think it's actually quite appropriate here - Gwindor may well emphasize his own faithfulness to Turin, as opposed to the betrayal he perceives.

NA-RG-102: How about:
Quote:
NA-RG-102{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}[son of Guilin], who had {found} [gained] his home
. . . which works nicely with "lost" in the next line.
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Old 11-05-2005, 04:39 PM   #17
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
This suggests to me that the version wherein Turin finds a dwarf-mask in the armouries was superceded by the version that extends the story of the Dragon-helm to Nargothrond. In other words, I had thought that the dwarf-mask was only introduced by Tolkien because the Dragon- helm had been lost; when the story was changed so that the Dragon-helm was no longer lost, the dwarf-mask was dropped.
Isn't that a bit over-reading the passage from HoME XI? Especially because:
Quote:
It seems probable that this story arose at a stage when my father was treating the Dragon-helm as lost and out of the story (from the end of Dor-Cuarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, when Turin was taken by the Orcs), ...
(emphasis is mine) Thus we do not know for certain if the mask was intorduce since the Dragon-Helm was lost. For me that is not so clear. Turin did not wear the Helm at first in Nargothrond, he only took it up again when he went into the Battle of Tumhalad.
But Turin was used to wearing the Helm with its visor and he was interested to conceal his identity from his foes. Thus to use a dwarf-mask was very fiting for him.

In addition:
Quote:
... and I extended Turin's wearing of it to the battle of Tumhalad (p.212).
Couldn't it be, that the dwarf-mask gave rise to the visor of the Dragon-Helm?

Anyway, I don't see any forcing reason why we have to drop the dwarf-mask. But I agree that "we are stung by the lack of the original Narn material."

NA-RG-101 & NA-RG-102: Both suggestions are nice.

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Old 11-12-2005, 06:05 PM   #18
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After thinking about it for a while, I agree with you. The dwarf-mask can stay.

As far as I can tell, that leaves us only with a few lines that need to be fixed for reasons of alliteration in this section.
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Old 11-13-2005, 04:41 PM   #19
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
As far as I can tell, that leaves us only with a few lines that need to be fixed for reasons of alliteration in this section.
Agreed. A list of the lines not fitting would be nice. But I am to tired to night to produce one.

While rereading the Lay in search for some add-able material for the fight on the summit of Amon Rudh (nothing useable was found; the Sil77 seems to be in part a paraphrasing of the Lay) I found a piece that would fit earlier in the narative:
Quote:
... NA-EX-37 <Ap Narn Túrin received gladly all who came to him, but by the counsel of Beleg he admitted no newcomer to his refuge upon Amon Rûdh (and that was now named Echad i Sedryn, Camp of the Faithful); the way thither only those of the Old Company knew and no others were admitted. But other guarded camps and forts were established round about: in the forest eastward, or in the highlands, or in the southward fens, from Methed-en-glad ("the End of the Wood") to Bar-erib some leagues south of Amon Rûdh; and from all these places men could see the summit of Amon Rûdh, and by signals receive tidings and commands.> NA-EX-37.2 <editorial bridge And the Lay tells about that time:
><Lay Thus war was waked in the woods once more
for the foes of Faërie, and its fame widely,
and the fear of that fellowship, now fared abroad; {645}
when the horn was heard of the hunting Elves
that shook the shaws and the sheer valleys. 5
Blades were naked and bows twanging,
and shafts from the shadows shooting wingéd,
and the sons of darkness slain and conquered; {650}
even in Angband the Orcs trembled.
Then the word wandered down the ways of the forest 10
that Túrin Thalion was returned to war{;
and Thingol heard it, and his thanes were sped
to lead the lost one in love to his halls - 655
but his fate was fashioned that they found him not}.
Little gold they got in that grim warfare,
but weary watches and wounds for guerdon;
nor on robber-raids now rode they ever,
who fended from NA-EX-37.5{Faërie}[friends] the fiends of Hell. {660}15
>
NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, ...
I think we should add it. It does only add little to the narative but it prepares the read for what is to come.

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Old 11-13-2005, 10:45 PM   #20
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By my reckoning, the problems for which he currently have no solution are:

FG-RG-26
FG-RG-27
FG-RG-67
FG-RG-73

Note - I had failed to comment before but your proposed:
Quote:
NA-RG-73 and {Flinding}[Guilin’s son] knew it {at the feet} before the throne of the king
. . . lacks alliteration.

Other than those four, we seem to have solutions that are at least satisfactory - though it certainly wouldn't hurt to continue to look at some of them and seek improvement.

NA-EX-37.2: I like the idea of including this, but I hesitate about the lines:

Quote:
Then the word wandered down the ways of the forest 10
that Túrin Thalion was returned to war
Turin's identity is known to his comrades at this point, but is it known generally that Gorthol is the heir of Hador?
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Old 11-14-2005, 04:36 PM   #21
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NA-EX-37.2: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Turin's identity is known to his comrades at this point, but is it known generally that Gorthol is the heir of Hador?
Well, he does wear the Helm which will hint at his identity. In addition we would be able to argue that "down the ways of the forest" could mean that this was discussed in the Forest of Doriath were anybody did know who was the wearer of the Dragon-Helm.

NA-RG-73: Mhm, it must have been late when I proposed that. You are right that it does not alliterate at all.

NA-RG-67:What about:
Quote:
Then NA-RG-67{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Gwindor] freely answered Guilin's son:
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Old 11-29-2005, 12:12 PM   #22
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NA-EX-37.2: I suppose you're right.

NA-RG-67: I think your proposal has one too many strong syllables. Perhaps just:

Quote:
Then NA-RG-67{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Gwindor] {freely} answered[,] Guilin's son:
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Old 11-30-2005, 05:21 PM   #23
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Just an idea for NA-RG-27:
Quote:
So {fearful}worried his {face}visage that NA-RG-27{Flinding}[Gwindor] crouched
The alliteration is not perfect, but it might be better then nothing.

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Old 12-04-2005, 10:31 PM   #24
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Hmm . . . I'm afraid I don't think that can work.

Also, I think that "fearful" here is probably objective rather than subjective - i.e. "inspiring fear" rather than "indicating fear". So I don't think that "worried" works.

I will make a concerted effort to study the difficult lines tomorrow.
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Old 12-10-2005, 05:32 PM   #25
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Well, I'm afraid I haven't made much progress. But one possibility that occurs to me for FG-RG-26 is:

Quote:
amid foes imagined; but NA-RG-26{Fuilin's son} [fearful Gwindor] {1265}
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Old 12-11-2005, 06:04 PM   #26
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FG-RG-26: Sounds not so bad to me.

FG-RG-27: If nothing else will be found, than we can at least skip line 1277:
Quote:
NA-RG-27{So fearful his face that Flinding crouched
and}[Gwindor] watched him, wondering what webs of doom
(Maybe again one strong syllable?)

And a solution of the same kind for FG-RG-73:
Quote:
NA-RG-73 and {Flinding}[Gwindor] knew it {at the feet of the king
like stone graven }standing {silent} like graven stone
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Old 01-15-2006, 03:17 PM   #27
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Sorry for my absence in the past month or so.

FG-RG-27: I think your suggested line is too long, but we could make it:

Quote:
NA-RG-27{So fearful his face that Flinding crouched
and}[Gwindor] {watched him}, wonder{ing}ed what webs of doom
FG-RG-73: Again, I think your line has one too many strong syllables. I suppose we could try:

Quote:
NA-RG-73 and {Flinding}[Gwindor] knew it {at the feet of the king
like {stone graven} graven stone {standing silent}
I don't know whether ". . . like graven stone" makes sense without "standing silent" though.
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Old 01-15-2006, 05:23 PM   #28
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Na-RG-27: I think the "," must go as well otherwise I agree:
Quote:
NA-RG-27{So fearful his face that Flinding crouched
and watched him,}[Gwindor] {wondering}wondered what webs of doom
NA-RG-73: I don't think ". . . like graven stone" makes any sense without "standing silent". What about taking a line more into account:
Quote:
NA-RG-73 and {Flinding}[Gwindor] knew it {at the feet of the king
}like stone graven{ standing silent}
with heart laden}standing silent; but Húrin's son
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Old 01-15-2006, 06:01 PM   #29
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RG-27: Yes, I missed the comma.

RG-73: I think your suggestion is good, as long as we make two transpositions to prevent alliteration on the last strong syllable:

Quote:
NA-RG-73 and {Flinding}[Gwindor] knew it {at the feet of the king}like {stone graven}graven stone { standing silent}
with heart laden}standing silent; but the son of Húrin{'s son}
I think we are (provisionally) done with this section - though there may well be better solutions available for certain lines if we look harder.
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Old 01-16-2006, 11:09 AM   #30
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NA-RG-73: Agreed.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I think we are (provisionally) done with this section - though there may well be better solutions available for certain lines if we look harder.
Yes for both, we have this section provisionally finished and we also might find better solutions for some lines. But for the moment I think we should move on to the last section of the Narn. And we can hope to be faster in that section since there are only 4 changes that I could find to be necessary.

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Old 05-20-2007, 04:45 PM   #31
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Quote:
<CoH ...
The death of Beleg {NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>}
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to Angband; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed.> NA-TI-21b <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; and {he sought in vain among the dead for Túrin, to bury him. But he found him not; and then he knew that Húrin's son was yet alive, and taken to Angband}. NA-EX-42.1 <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A And in this way also Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and} alone[ of the outlaw-band of Túrin] survived the battle on the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð].> Then with{With} little hope Beleg departed from {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach. And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.>NA-EX-43b <editorial bridge And of this in the Narn it is told:
><Lay NA-EX-44{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
...
and the light was lost __ in lands unknown.>
NA-EX-44.1 <CoH He{ set out then with little hope to try to find the trail of the Orcs, and he} came upon their tracks near the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. There they divided, some passing along the eaves of the Forest of Brethil towards the Ford of Brithiach, while others turned away westwards; and it seemed plain to Beleg that he must follow those that went direct with greatest speed to Angband, making for the Pass of Anach. Therefore he journeyed on through Dimbar, and up to the Pass of Anach in Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and so to the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Night, aregion of dread and dark enchantment, of wandering and despair{.} NA-EX-44.2 <editorial bridge , of which in the Lay it is told:
><Lay Never-dawning night __ was netted clinging
in the black branches __ of the beetling trees;
...
and learnt his lineage __ and luckless fate{,}.>
NA-TI-22 <Sil77 Grieving Beleg looked upon him; for Gwindor was now but a bent and {fearful} NA-EX-44.3 <CoH timid> shadow of his former shape and mood, when in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad that lord of Nargothrond rode with rash courage to the very doors of Angband, and there was taken. For few of the Noldor whom Morgoth captured were put to death, because of their skill in forging and in mining for metals and gems; and Gwindor was not slain, but put to labour in the mines of the North. <CoH These Noldor possessed many of the Fëanorian lamps, which were crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystal being ever-shining with an inner blue radiance marvellous for finding the way in the darkness of night or in tunnels; of these lamos they themselves did not know the secret. Many of the mining Elves thus escaped from the darkness of the mines, for they were able to bore they way out> {By}by secret tunnels known only to themselves{ the mining Elves might sometimes escape; and thus it came to pass that Beleg found him, spent and bewildered in the mazes of Taur-nu-Fuin}.><CoH {; but} But Gwindor received a small sword from one who worked in the forges, and when working in a stone-gang turned suddenly on the guards, He escaped, but with one hand cut off; and now he lay exhausted under the great pines of Taur-nu-Fuin. NA-EX-45 <editorial bridge And in the Lay it is told of Gwindor:
><Lay A tale he unfolded __ of terrible flight
o'er flaming fell __ and fuming hollow, {825}
...
they laughing led me, __ my lagging footsteps 25
with their spears speeding.>
NA-EX-45.1 <CoH From Gwindor Beleg learned that the small company of Orcs ahead of them, from whom he had hidden, had no captives, and were going with speed: an advace guard, perhaps, bearing report to Angband. At this Beleg despaired: for he guessed, that the tracks that he had seen turning away westward after the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] were thos of a greater host, who had in orc-fashion gone marauding in the lands seeking food and plunder, and might now be returning to Angband by way of ‘the Narrow Land’, the long defile of Sirion, much further to the west. If this were so, his sole hope lay in returning to the Ford of Brithiach, and then going north to Tol Sirion. But scarcely had he determind on this {than they heard the noise of a great host approaching through the forest from the south;}> NA-EX-45.2 <editorial bridge ; when
><Lay
{ __ Their spoils were piled,
...
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.'

In}in eager anger __ then up sprang Beleg,
crying and calling, __ careless of NA-RG-04 {Flinding}[Gwindor]:
'O Túrin, Túrin, __ my troth-brother, {870}
to the brazen bonds __ shall I abandon thee,
and the darkling doors __ of the Deeps of Hell?' 5
...
in despair fettered __ with spirit empty
in mourning hopeless __ he remained behind.
{Failivrin}[Faelivrin]
NA-RG-31 {Flinding go-Fuilin __ }[Gwindor] the faithful{-hearted}, __ Guilin’s son
the brand of Beleg __ with blood stainéd {1340}190
...
That song he sang __ is since remembered,
by NA-RG-54 {Gnomes}[Noldor] renewed __ in Nargothrond 505
it widely has wakened __ warfain armies
to battle with Bauglir - __ NA-EX-47.6 <CoH '{The Bowman's Friendship}Laer Cú Beleg'. {1665}

'Tis told that Túrin __ then turned him back
and fared to NA-RG-55 {Flinding}[Gwindor], __ and flung him down
to sleep soundless __ till the sun mounted 510
to the high heavens __ and hasted westward.
...
and yet love in longing, __ and love calls me.'> 560
NA-TI-24 <Sil77 And Gwindor gave the sword Anglachel into {his}Túrins hands, and Túrin knew that it was heavy and strong and had great power; ...
...
'That I do believe,' said Túrin.>
NA-EX-48b <CoH And now they arose, and departing from Eithel Ivrin they journeyed southward along the banks of Narog{, until they were taken by scouts of the Elves and brought as prisoners to the hidden stronghold}.
Thus did Túrin come to Nargothrond{.}:
> {<editorial bridge Of their southward journey the Lay tells:>}
<Lay Where Narog's torrent __ gnashed and spouted
...
Doors there darkly __ dim gigantic
were hewn in the hillside; __ huge their timbers,
and their posts and lintels __ of ponderous stone. {1830}
NA-EX-48.1 <CoH Túrin in Nargothrond>
They were shut unshakeable. __ Then shrilled a trumpet 105
as a phantom fanfare __ faintly winding
...
most noble of name, __ renowed in valour.>
NA-TI-25 <Sil77 {For Gwindor’s} NA-EX-48.2 <CoH Thus Gwindor came home, and for his> sake Túrin was admitted with him into Nargothrond{, and he dwelt there in honour}<CoH for Gwindor said that he was a valiant man, dear friend of Beleg Cúthalion of Doriath.>. But when Gwindor would tell his name, Túrin checked him, saying: 'I am Agarwaen the son of Úmarth (which is the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate), a hunter in the woods.'{; and the Elves of Nargothrond} <CoH But though the Elves guessed that he took these names because of the slaying of his friend (not knowing other reasons), they> questioned him no more.> NA-EX-50b <Ap Narn And Túrin would not wear the Helm/ of Hador/ again {"}lest it reveal him{"}.}>> NA-EX-49 <editorial bridge And the Lay tells of the feast at Gwindor’s return:
><Lay In those halls in the hills __ at that homecoming
...
neath trees enchanted;}of former deeds; __ then faltered his tongue{ faltered
and his tale was stilled}.>
NA-EX-50.1 <Lay Many bosoms burdened __ with foreboding vague
their glooms disowned __ neath glad laughter.
In song and silence, __ snow and tempest,
...
No ambush stayed them; __ the archers yielded {2275}
each vale by vale{, __ though venomed arrows}.>
NA-TI-26 <Sil77 {In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favour with Orodreth, and well-nigh all hearts were turned to him in Nargothrond. For he was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were that of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor; therefore many called him Adanedhel, the Elf-Man. The}In that time the sword Anglachel was forged anew for {him}Túrin by cunning smiths of Nargothrond, and though ever black its edges shone with pale fire{; and he named it Gurthang, Iron of Death. So great was his prowess and skill in warfare on the confines of the Guarded Plain that he}<CoH . Then Túrin> himself became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword{; and the Elves said: 'The Mormegil cannot be slain, save by mischance, or an evil arrow from afar.' Therefore they gave him dwarf-mail, to guard him; and in a grim mood he found also in the armouries a dwarf-mask all gilded, and he put it on before battle, and his enemies fled before his face. NA-EX-50 <Ap Narn For Túrin would not wear the Helm again {"}lest it reveal him{"}.}><CoH for the rumor of his deeds with that weapon; but he named the sword Gurthang, Iron of Death.
Because of his powers and his skill in warfare with Orcs Túrin found favour with Orodreth, and was admitted to his council. Now Túrin had no liking for the manner of fighting of the Elves of Nargothrond, of ambush and stealth andsecret arrow, and hr urged that it be abandoned, and that they should use their strength to attack the servants of the Enemy, to open battle and pursuit.> NA-EX-51 <Ap Narn Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin <CoH in this matter> in the council of the King, saying that he had been in Angband, and knew somewhat of the might of Morgoth, and <CoH had had a glimps of the power of Morgoth, and had some inkling>of his designs. ‘Petty victories will prove profitless at the last,’ he said; ‘for thus Morgoth learns where the boldest of his enemies are to be found, and gathers strength great enough to destroy them. All the might of the Elves and the Edain united sufficed only to contain him, and to gain the peace of a siege; long indeed, but only so long as Morgoth bided his time before he broke the leaguer; and never again can such a union be made. {In}<CoH Only in> secrecy{ only} lies{ now any} hope<CoH of survival>; until the Valar come.’
‘The Valar!’ said Túrin. ‘They have forsaken you, and they hold Men in scorn. What use to look westward across the endless Sea<CoH to a dying sunset in the West>? There is but one Vala with whom we have to do, and that is Morgoth; and if in the end we cannot overcome him, at the least we can hurt him and hinder him. For victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follows from it. But it is expedient also<CoH . Secrecy is not finally possible: arms are the only wall against Morgoth. If >{; for if} you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, ...
...
‘But they suffered greater woe than if that field had not been fought,’ said Gwindor.>
NA-EX-51.1 <CoH
But Túrin advanced greatly in the favour of Orodreth, and he became the chief counsellor of the King, who submitted all things to his advice{.}> NA-TI-29b <Sil77 {When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open}; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms<CoH , since war was now chiefly east of Narog in the Guarded Plain.>. Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas; <CoH {As}as its north march Nargothrond now held the ‘Debatable Land’ about the sources od Ginglith and Narog, and the fringes of the Woods of Núath. Between Nenning and Narog no Orc came; and east of Narog their realm went to the {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the borders of the Moors of the Nibin-noeg.> {and though }Gwindor{ spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he} fell into dishonour{ and none heeded him}, for {his strength was small and }he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond{.} NA-EX-51.2 <CoH , and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him. But Túrin was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen {Eledhwen}[Eleðwen] to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor. So valiant was Túrin, and so exceedingly skilled in arms, especially with sword and shield, that the Elves said that he could not be slain, save by mischance, or an evil arrow from afar. Therefore they gave him dwarf-mail, to guard him; and in a grim mood he found also in the armouries a dwarf-mask all gilded, and he put it on before battle, and his enemies fled before his face.
Now that he had his ways, and all went well, and he had work to do after his heart, and had honour in it, he was courteous to all, and less grim than of old, so that well nigh all hearts were turned to him; and many called him {Adanedhel}[Adaneðel], the Elf-Man. But most of all Finduilas the daughter of Orodreth found her heart moved whenever he came near, or was in hall.>
NA-EX-52 <Lay __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ At Túrin's {sorrow}[fortune]
one marvelled and was moved, __ a maiden fair
...
by no moon nor sun, __ down mazy ways
to the black abysmal __ brink of waking.>
NA-EX-53 <Ap Narn Finduilas the daughter of Orodreth was golden-haired ...
...
‘Perhaps,’ said Finduilas. ‘It shall stand, if you can achieve it. But have a care, NA-EX-53.6 <CoH {Adanedhel}Thurin>; my heart is heavy when you go out to battle, lest Nargothrond be bereaved.’
...
But Túrin did not understand these words, and did but guess that Gwindor begrudged him his place in the heart and counsels of the King.>

NA-TI-27 <Sil77 Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run. ‘And now at last,’ he said, ‘I believe the rumour of Angband that Morgoth has cursed Húrin and all his kin.’ And going to Finduials he said to her: ‘A sadness and doubt is upon you; and too often now I miss you, and begin to guess that you are avoiding me. Since you tell me not the cause, I must guess. >{; and on a time he spoke to Finduilas, saying: '}Daughter of the house of Finarfin, let no grief lie between us; for though Morgoth has laid my life in ruin, you still I love. {Go}<CoH But go> whither love leads you;<CoH for I have become unfit to wed you; and neither my prowess nor my counsel have any honour more.’
Then Finduilas wept. ‘Weep not yet!’ said Gwindor. ‘But beware lest you have cause. Not fitting is it>{ yet beware! It is not fitting} that the Elder Children of Ilúvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise, for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive.
‘But this Man is not Beren <CoH , even if he be both as fair and as brave>.A doom indeed lies on him, as seeing eyes may well read in him, but a dark doom. Enter not into it! And if you will, your love shall betray you to bitterness and death. For hearken to me! Though he be indeed agarwaen son of úmarth, his right name is Túrin son of Húrin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed. Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! Is it not written in me?'
Then Finduilas sat long in thought; but at the last she said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'>
NA-EX-53.8 <CoH Then {Finduials}she rose, and quennly indeed she looked.> NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn ‘Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor,’ she said. ‘You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. ...
...
‘Túrin son of Húrin Thalion, captain of the North.’>

NA-TI-28 <Sil77 Now when Túrin learnt from Finduilas of what had passed, he was wrathful, and he said to Gwindor: 'In love I hold you for rescue and safe-keeping. But now you have done ill to me, friend, to betray my right name, and call my doom upon me, from which I would lie hid.'
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'
NA-EX-55b <editorial bridge And of Túrins Sorrows at this time it is told in the Lay:
><Lay From woe unhealed __ the wounded heart
of Túrin the tall __ was turned to her.
...
the glory of her eyes __ that gleamed with fires
of secret thought __ in silent deeps.{ 2260

Many bosoms burdened __ with foreboding vague
their glooms disowned __ neath glad laughter. 50
In song and silence, __ snow and tempest,
winter wore away; __ to the world there came
a year once more __ in youth unstained, {2265}
nor were leaves less green, __ light less golden,
the flowers less fair, __ though in faded hearts 55
no spring was born, __ though speeding nigh
danger and dread __ and doom's footsteps
to their halls hasted. __ Of the host of iron {2270}
came tale and tidings __ ever treading nearer;
Orcs unnumbered __ to the East of Narog 60
roamed and ravened __ on the realm's borders,
the might of Morgoth __ was moved abroad.
No ambush stayed them; __ the archers yielded {2275}
each vale by vale{, __ though venomed arrows}.}>
NA-TI-29b <Sil77 {When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms. Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas; and though Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he fell into dishonour and none heeded him, for his strength was small and he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.
}* * *
In that time of respite and hope, when because of the deeds of the Mormegil the power of Morgoth was stemmed west of Sirion, NA-EX-55.1 <CoH and all the woods had peace, > Morwen fled at last from Dor-lómin with Niënor her daughter, and adventured the long journey to Thingol's halls. There new grief awaited her, for she found Túrin gone, and to Doriath there had come no tidings since the Dragon-helm had vanished from the lands west of Sirion; but Morwen remained in Doriath with Niënor as guests of Thingol and Melian, and were treated with honour.
NA-EX-55.2 <CoH The Fall of Nargothrond>
Now it came to pass, when four hundred and ninety-five years had passed since the rising of the Moon, in the spring of the year, ...
...
And when Orodreth came, Gelmir said to him: ‘Lord, we were of Angrod's people, and we have wandered far since the Dagor BragollachNA-EX-56.6 {<CoH Nirnaeth>}; but of late we have dwelt among Círdan's following by the Mouths of Sirion. ...
...
Then Arminas said: ‘<CoH Yes. Lord. Ever>{Lord, ever} since the Nirnaeth I have sought for the hidden kingdom of Turgon, ...
...
‘Other it has ever been,’ answered Túrin. ‘And if, as it seems, I must bear the hate of Morgoth because of the valour of my father shall I also endure the taunts and ill-boding of a runagate <CoH from war>, though he claim the kinship of kings? {I counsel you: get}<CoH Get> you back to the safe shores of the Sea!’
...
For so much at least of the words of Ulmo were read aright.>

NA-TI-30 <Sil77 Soon {afterwards}NA-EX-56.7 <CoH after the depature of the messengers> Handir Lord of Brethil was slain, for the Orcs invaded his land, <CoH seeking to secure the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] for their further advance.> {and} Handir gave them battle, but the Men of Brethil were worsted, and driven back into their woods. <CoH The Orcs did not pursue them, for they had achieved their purpose for that time; and they continued to muster their strength in the Pass of Sirion.
In>{And in} the autumn of the year, biding his hour, Morgoth loosed upon the people of Narog the great host that he had long prepared; and Glaurung the {Úrulóki}NA-EX-56.8 <CoH the Father of Dragons> passed over Anfauglith, and came thence into the north vales of Sirion and there did great evil. Under the shadows of Ered Wethrin <CoH , leading a great army of Orcs in his train,> he defiled the Eithel Ivrin, and thence he passed into the realm of Nargothrond, {and burned}<CoH burning> the Talath Dirnen, the Guarded Plain, between Narog and {Teiglin}[Taeglin].
Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Túrin, and the heart of the host was upheld, as he rode on the right hand of Orodreth. NA-EX-57 <GA Túrin in the battle wore the Dragon-helm.> But greater far was the host of Morgoth than any scouts had told, NA-EX-57.1 <LT an army of Orcs {descended upon them}, and wolves, and Orcs mounted upon wolves;> and none but Túrin defended by {his dwarf-mask}[the Dragon-helm] could withstand the approach of Glaurung{; and the}<CoH .
The> Elves were driven back and {pressed by the Orcs into}<CoH defeated on> the field of Tumhalad, between Ginglith and Narog, and there they were penned. On that day all the pride and host of Nargothrond withered away{; and}. Orodreth <CoH the king >was slain in the forefront of the battle, ...
...
Then Túrin sped back to Nargothrond, mustering such of the rout as he met with on the way; and the leaves fell from the trees in a great wind as they went, for the autumn was passing to a dire winter. But NA-EX-57.6 <CoH Glaurung an his>{the} host of the Orcs{ and Glaurung the Dragon} were there before him, and they came suddenly, ere those that were left on guard were aware of what had befallen on the field of Tumhalad. In that day the bridge over Narog proved an evil; for it was great and mightily made and could not swiftly be destroyed, and <CoH thus> the enemy came readily over the deep river, and Glaurung came in full fire against the Doors of Felagund, and overthrew them, and passed within.
And even as Túrin came up the {dreadful}<CoH ghastly> sack of Nargothrond was well-nigh achieved. The Orcs had slain or driven off all that remained in arms, and were even then ransacking the great halls and chambers, plundering and destroying; but those of the women and maidens that were not burned or slain they had herded on the {terraces}<CoH terrace> before the doors, as slaves to be taken {into Morgoth's thraldom}<CoH to Angband>. Upon this ruin and woe Túrin came, and none could withstand him; or would not, though he struck down all before him, and passed over the bridge, and hewed his way towards the captives.
And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled <CoH into hiding>. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping {doors}<CoH Doors of Felagund>, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!'
Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, <CoH and fire was in his eyes, >and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame{; but}<CoH . But> Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. And NA-EX-58 <Ap Narn {and} Glaurung, desiring to rid Túrin of its aid and protection (since he himself feared it), taunted him, ...
...
... in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye> {Without fear Túrin looked into them as he raised up the sword}; and straightway he fell under the NA-EX-58.1 <CoH dreadful>{binding} spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was {halted moveless.}<CoH as one turned to stone. Thus long they stood unmoving, silent before the great Doors of Felagund. Then> {Then for a long time he stood as one graven of stone; and they two were alone, silent before the doors of Nargothrond. But }Glaurung spoke again, taunting Túrin{, and he said}: 'Evil have been all thy ways, son of Húrin{.}<CoH ,’ said he. ‘>Thankless fosterling, ...
And while he was yet held by the eyes of {the dragon}<CoH Glaurung> in torment of mind, and could not stir, <CoH at a sign from the Dragon> the Orcs drove away the herded captives, and they passed nigh to Túrin and crossed over the bridge. Among them was Finduilas, and she {cried out to Túrin as she went; but}<CoH held out out her arms to Túrin, and called him by name. But> not until her cries and the wailing of the captives was lost ...
...
But Túrin drawing back his sword stabbed at {the dragon's}<CoH his> eyes; and Glaurung coiling back swiftly towered ...
... saying in a fell voice: 'Haste thee now, son of Húrin, to Dor-lómin! Or perhaps the Orcs shall come before thee, once again. And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen {again, }and {never at all shalt thou see} Niënor {thy sister}<CoH again>; and they will curse thee.'
...
NA-EX-43b Why shouldn't we use the name Narn here?
NA-EX-44 This passages is not changed but that Beleg did not search for fellows means in the new context that he did not even ask Andróg to come with him.
NA-EX-44.1 and NA-EX-44.2 This interruption of the Lay is new, but the information provided here from CoH makes the further story more probable.
NA-EX-44.3 The passages about the lamp we did already know from the Appendix to Tour and his coming to Gondolin, but we had no idea were it belonged.
NA-EX-45.1 and NA-EX-45.2 Again a intruption of the Lay-material for reason of new informations from CoH.
NA-EX-45.2 Since the band that captured Gwwindor had no captives, I inserted the discription of them here.
Faelivrin: The chapter title does now no longer reffer to Finduilas but rather it means really the sun glittering on the pool of Eithel Narog.
NA-EX-47.6 I wanted to provide the elvish name.
NA-EX-48b CoH fit here well as an intor to the passage from the [b}Lay[/b].
NA-EX-48.1 The new sub-chapter headline is inserted were it is positioned in CoH.
NA-EX-48.2 small change of wording.
NA-EX-50b again the position of the insert is changed, for reasons of better fitting.
NA-EX-50.1 An other part of the Lay fitting the text nicely.
NA-EX-56.6 (The changes before are only small wording changes or some such.) It seems strange that an Elve from Dorthonion should say that he wandered since the Nirnaeth, or?
NA-EX-57.1 I searched for some stuff to add to the battle and this was all that came up.
The rest of the changes are small additions or details of wording.

No further changes are requiered in this section.

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Old 04-09-2009, 01:01 AM   #32
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In addition to bring this thread up, I want to point out that NA-EX-43b and NA-EX-44 have been discussed already and are settled.

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Old 04-10-2009, 01:55 AM   #33
Aiwendil
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NA-EX-45.2: I’m not sure I understand what you mean here by:

Quote:
Since the band that captured Gwwindor had no captives, I inserted the discription of them here.
It looks like the description of them has been deleted (as it must be):

Quote:
But scarcely had he determind on this {than they heard the noise of a great host approaching through the forest from the south;}> NA-EX-45.2 <editorial bridge ; when
><Lay
{ __ Their spoils were piled,
...
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.'

In}in eager anger __ then up sprang Beleg,
But I think there’s further difficulty here. In the Lay, Beleg’s sudden anger (and hence the whole dialogue that follows) is caused by his hearing from Gwindor of the mistreatment of Turin by the Orc-band. In the CoH story Gwindor did not see Turin. However, we might be able to recast it (and now that I think of it, perhaps this is what you intended) so that Beleg’s ‘eager anger’ is caused by his realization that he followed the wrong Orc-band. I would suggest this:

Quote:
If this were so, his sole hope lay in returning to the Ford of Brithiach, and then going north to Tol Sirion. {But scarcely had he determind on this {than they heard the noise of a great host approaching through the forest from the south;}> NA-EX-45.2 <Lay
{ __ Their spoils were piled,
...
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.'}

In eager anger __ then up sprang Beleg,
NA-EX-47.6: Ideally we would provide both the Elvish and English names. However, the Elvish name doesn’t work here since it alliterates on the second stress of the half-line (the alliteration in the second half-line must always be on the first stress). Conceivably, we could try:

Quote:
That song he sang __ is since remembered,
by NA-RG-54 {Gnomes}[Noldor] renewed __ in Nargothrond 505
it widely has wakened __ warfain armies -
{to battle with Bauglir - __} NA-EX-47.6 <CoH ‘Laer Cú Beleg'> __ 'The Bowman's Friendship’.{1665}
However, that has two drawbacks – first, the _ A A _ alliteration scheme, while technically valid, is not so good and hardly ever used by Tolkien; second, we rather lose the point of ‘widely [wakening] warfain armies’ without ‘to battle with Bauglir’. So I think I prefer to leave it as in the Lay.

Quote:
It seems strange that an Elve from Dorthonion should say that he wandered since the Nirnaeth
It does seem strange, and I wondered about that when I read it. But after all Tolkien wrote it (presumably J.R.R.; I doubt very much that CT would have introduced such a statement in CoH), so I think we must let it stand. It may have been a slip of the pen, but one could imagine that perhaps they joined with Fingon’s folk after the Bragollach and later fought in the Nirnaeth.

NA-EX-57.1: I’m hesitant to introduce such a small detail. If LT provided substantial information that would be one thing, but to break a sentence Tolkien wrote just to add (essentially) that the host contained wolves seems to me unnecessary.

Also a general comment about moving back and forth between the Lay and the prose sources: I think we may be overdoing it with the editorial bridges. In many or even most cases I think we should probably eliminate these and simply move into verse without comment.

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Old 04-12-2009, 01:14 PM   #34
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hello again

The differences between this part and mine are minor in narrative structure, except for (I know it were discussed before by you) that i keep Androg dead, and Dirhaval could extract the information from elves (even Gil-galad as son of Orodreth) that flew to the Mouths of Sirion or the Isle of Balar. And in the prologue is not mentioned the source.
The other difference is that I wrote the text of the lay as prose. But in Spanish, of course, there´s no alliteration when is translated, and in an epic tale like this the rhetorical language can be omitted. (In Beren only was kept firstly in the passages of "love", that looks like better).

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Old 04-17-2009, 06:01 AM   #35
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My appologise for not coming back to this further, but I had a hard time keeping track of the other discussions.

NA-EX-45.3: Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
I’m not sure I understand what you mean here by:
Quote:
Since the band that captured Gwwindor had no captives, I inserted the discription of them here.
Well, I see that this is confusing. I left out the change refered to and redirected my comment. So you are right Aiwendil there is nothing added at position NA-EX-45.2. But I did add it under NA-EX-45.3. But when I looked for that myself I discovered that I had not posted that part by mistake, sorry. So here it goes:
Quote:
'Follow me, NA-RG-15 {Flinding}[friend], __ from the forest cursed!
Let us haste to his help, __ to Hell if need be {1025}
or to death by the darts __ of the dread Glamhoth!':
and Beleg bounded __ from the bracken madly, 160
like a deer driven __ by dogs baying
from his hiding in the hills __ and hollow places;
and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[Gwindor] followed __ fearful after him {1030}
neath the yawning gate, __ through yew-thickets,
through bogs and bents __ and bushes shrunken, 165
till they reached the rocks __ and the riven moorlands
and friendless fells __ falling darkly
to the dusty dunes __ of {Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith]. {1035}
In a cup outcarven __ on the cold hillside,
whose broken brink __ was bleakly fringed 170
with bended bushes __ bowed in anguish
from the North-wind's knife, __ beneath them far
the feasting camp __ of their foes was laid; {1040}
the fiery flare __ of fuming torches,
and black bodies __ in the blaze they saw 175
crossing countlessly, __ and cries they heard
and the hollow howling __ of hungry wolves.
NA-EX-45.3<Lay {and}And countless captives __ in that camp were chained, {850}
and {Elfin}[Elven] maids __ their anguish mourning. 180
put one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visaged, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
Full length he lay __ and lashed to pickets {855}
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted 185
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
Then he called, as clear __ as cry of hunter
that hails his hounds __ in hollow places, {860}
on the name renowned __ of that noblest king 190 -
but men unmindful __ remember him little -
Húrin Thalion, __ who Erithámrod hight,
the Unbending, __ for Orc and Balrog
and Morgoth's might __ on the mountain yet {865}
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak 195
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.{'}>

Then a moon mounted __ o'er the mists riding, {1045}
and the keen radiance __ of the cold moonshine
the shadows sharpened __ in the sheer hollows,
and slashed the slopes __ with slanting blackness; 200
NA-EX-45.2: I am okay with your suggestion, adding only a fullstop after '... on this'.

NA-EX-47.6: Okay we leave the text like it was in the Lay. But my I probably very carefully suggest the unthinkable? =====> a FOOTNOTE

NA-EX-56.6: You are, the could not wandering occupations for him between the flight from Dorthonion and the Nirnaeth.

NA-EX-57.1: I do not fight for that add. It was a just the only additional information that my search through all the descriptions of that battle brought up, so I sought I should at least offer it. I will skip it.

About the editorial bridges leading into the fragments of the Lay: I will go through them one after the other, but for know I have only time for one:
NA-EX-37.2b: Here the bridge is not needed. We will do without.

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Old 04-17-2009, 09:02 AM   #36
Aiwendil
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Quote:
Well, I see that this is confusing. I left out the change refered to and redirected my comment. So you are right Aiwendil there is nothing added at position NA-EX-45.2. But I did add it under NA-EX-45.3.
Ah, that makes more sense. This certainly looks like the right place to put the passage if it is to be kept. I still have a slight reservation - in the original version, of course, Gwindor is describing the camp from within (and is presumably reasonably close to Turin). In our version, Beleg and Gwindor are still some distance away from the camp (not near enough to be noticed by the wolves, at least). So are they close enough to see Turin so clearly, 'stern-visaged, strong, and in stature tall' or to hear his cries?

NA-EX-45.2: I think there was a typo in my suggestion. I meant:

Quote:
If this were so, his sole hope lay in returning to the Ford of Brithiach, and then going north to Tol Sirion. {But scarcely had he determind on this than they heard the noise of a great host approaching through the forest from the south;}> NA-EX-45.2 <Lay
{ __ Their spoils were piled,
...
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.'}

In eager anger __ then up sprang Beleg,
In other words, delete the whole sentence 'But scarcely . . .' and move right into the Lay after describing his intention to return to the Brithiach.

NA-EX-47.6: A footnote?! Blasphemy of blasphemies!

Actually, I think this is a good idea in this case. If it were prose, of course, there would be no reason to put in a footnote what could easily be added into the main text, but in verse things are different. And of course unlike the infamous Ainulindale footnote proposal, there are no thorny Aelfwine/Pengolodh issues here!
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Old 04-17-2009, 12:51 PM   #37
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NA-EX-45.2: That is okay for me.

NA-EX-45.3: They heard cries before so why not that of Túrin?
The face is another matter. But it brought up a news idea:
Quote:
and black bodies __ in the blaze they saw 175
crossing countlessly, __ and cries they heard
and the hollow howling __ of hungry wolves.
NA-EX-45.3<Lay {and}And countless captives __ in that camp were chained, {850}
and {Elfin}[Elven] maids __ their anguish mourning. 180
but one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-{visaged}[visored], strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
NA-EX-46b <GA; Commentary §275 {the dragon-helm - or was it set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him}/On his head he __ haughtily wore the Dragon;
tauntingly helmed they __ tried him with knives./> 185
NA-TI-23b <Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and tied to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk,}/{Full length}/Tied/ he lay/ to/ __ {and lashed to pickets}/a trunk of a tree/ {855}
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
Then he called, as clear __ as cry of hunter 190
that hails his hounds __ in hollow places, {860}
on the name renowned __ of that noblest king -
but men unmindful __ remember him little -
Húrin Thalion, __ who Erithámrod hight,
the Unbending, __ for Orc and Balrog 195
and Morgoth's might __ on the mountain yet {865}
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.{'}>

Then a moon mounted __ o'er the mists riding, {1045}
and the keen radiance __ of the cold moonshine 200
the shadows sharpened __ in the sheer hollows,
and slashed the slopes __ with slanting blackness;
Thus we could here give the fact that Túrin wore the Dragon-Helm and avoid on brake in the alliterativ text by prose. Since it might be hard to read I give a shorter extract in clean text here:
Quote:
but one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
On his head he __ haughtily wore the Dragon;
tauntingly helmed they __ tried him with knives. 185
Tied he lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
NA-EX-47.6: If nobody speaks against it a footnote it will be.

Back to editorial bridges:
NA-EX-44c:
Quote:
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to Angband NA-EX-41.15{;}. <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed. With little hope Beleg departed from Amon Rûdh and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach}.
><Lay NA-EX-44c{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
Unmatched among Men, __ or magic-wielding
Elves, or hunters __ of the Orc-kindred,
or beasts of prey __ for blood pining,
was his craft and cunning, __ that cold and dead 10
an unseen slot __ could scent o'er stone, {745}
foot-prints could find __ on forest pathways
that lightly on the leaves __ were laid in moons
long waned, and washed __ by windy rains.
The grim Glamhoth's __ goblin armies 15
go cunning-footed, __ but his craft failed not {750}
to tread their trail, __ till the lands were darkened,
and the light was lost __ in lands unknown.>
And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward{; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.
NA-EX-44.1 <CoH He{ set out then with little hope to try to find the trail of the Orcs, and he} came upon their tracks near the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. There they divided, some passing along the eaves of the Forest of Brethil towards the Ford of Brithiach, while others turned away westwards; and it seemed plain to Beleg that he must follow those that went direct with greatest speed to Angband, making for the Pass of Anach.
I rearanged the text slightly after the removal of Andróg survival, and think now we can go with a bridge.

NA-EX-44.2; NA-EX-45: Here also the bridges can go.

NA-EX-47 See above.

NA-EX-48b: Here I would slightly rearange:
Quote:
NA-EX-48b <CoH And now they arose, and departing from Eithel Ivrin they journeyed southward along the banks of Narog{, until they were taken by scouts of the Elves and brought as prisoners to the hidden stronghold.
Thus did Túrin come to Nargothrond.}
<Lay Where Narog's torrent __ gnashed and spouted
NA-EX-49: Here the bridge also superfical.

NA-EX-52 had no bridge right from the start.

NA-EX-55: The bridge can go, even so I find it usefull.

On last pice remeans: But it is not in the Narn. It is the pice we took in in the last chapter of Beren and Lúthien BL-EX-19. While reading this I got the same feeling I had have before: Where exactly does this belong? Who is the whisperer and to whom does he whisper? Where it stand know it needs the bridge but probably when we really discover where it belongs it can go without? If I have any clearer idea about that I will post the according thread.

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Old 04-17-2009, 01:56 PM   #38
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NA-EX-45.3: A nice idea, but I have to say it looks like too much creative writing is required. We're already moving back and forth between prose and verse quite a bit, so I don't think the short prose insertion is a problem.

NA-EX-44c: It occurs to me that if we omit the verse additions to the 'Turin's Fostering' section, then this will be the first switch in the chapter (I think). So perhaps it would make sense to keep the bridge here at least.

Edit: I just realized there is an earlier verse excerpt at NA-EX-37.2b, so probably we should keep the bridge there but eliminate it here.

NA-EX-44.2: Perhaps eliminating the bridge but changing the punctuation to a colon might be good, since the verse section starts with a description of Taur-nu-Fuin:

Quote:
NA-EX-44.2 Therefore he journeyed on through Dimbar, and up to the Pass of Anach in Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and so to the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Night, a region of dread and dark enchantment, of wandering and despair{.}[:]
<Lay Never-dawning night __ was netted clinging
in the black branches __ of the beetling trees;
NA-EX-47: As noted above, I think we should keep the prose insertion here. But reading it again something seems strange: we first say that they 'cut the bonds that held him' but immediately we say 'no blade would bite on the bonds he wore'. Clearly, what the first clause should say is that they tried to cut his bonds. I suggest:

Quote:
NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness} NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. But though Beleg and Gwindor would cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<[b]editorial bridge[b/] the Lay tells:

><Lay{No}no blade would bite on the bonds he wore,
NA-EX-55: If you find this bridge useful, I don't suppose there's any pressing reason not to use it.

On BL-EX-19: I was actually going to suggest that once we're satisfied with the Narn we briefly revisit the already completed chapters. Reading through the finished texts for them I found a few issues, mainly very small things. I suggest we look at BL-EX-19 at that time.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 04-17-2009 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:16 PM   #39
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Another thought before I forget it - I wonder whether perhaps we should try somehow to incorporate the two short 'independent poems' in alliterative verse that Tolkien developed from passages in the Lay and which are given at the end of the chapter in III.

One of them, untitled, is based on part of Gwindor's speech about the river Sirion at Eithel Ivrin, lines 1554-1570 in the Lay. I'm almost tempted to suggest that it was in fact a replacement passage for those lines. We may want to consider using it as such.

The other is 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond', developed from lines 2082-2113. This is a bit different, since it not only expands on the passage in the Lay but also leaves out the narrative portions. So it would seem there's no way for us to incorporate it; at least we can't simply replace the corresponding section of the Lay with it. This is a shame as 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond' is in my opinion one of Tolkien's finest pieces of verse, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:47 PM   #40
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While I have no objections to NA-EX-46b as such, I dislike the composition and flow of the additional verses. I'll see if I can't think up a better form for them, if you don't object.
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