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Old 05-10-2006, 02:30 PM   #1
Findegil
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General changes in TftE

In this post I have collected all general changes that were used so far. And in future work I will add to it what ever diserves a general teratment. I also would like to concentrat henc forth all discussion of general changes in this thread. Such a collection will make it easier to check all texts under development for general changes that are needed.

{Bansil}[Belthil] per Sil77

{Cristhorn}[Cirith Thoronath] per Sil77

{Eärendel}[Eärendil] per QS77 and LR.

{Elfinesse}[Elvenesse] per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

{Glingol}[Glingal] per QS77.

{Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] per QS77.

{Indor}[Galdor] when it refers to the grandfather of Tour per UT

{Inwë}[Ingwë] per QS77.

{Isfin}[Aredhel] per QS77.

{Kôr} and {Côr}[Túna] per QS77. In BoLT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the City and the hill on which it stands. In the sole mention in “The Fall of Gondolin” it is the hill that is meant.

{Malkarauki}[Valaraukar] per Valaquenta published with QS77.

{Meglin}[Maeglin] per QS77.

{Melko}[Morgoth] per QS77. After BoLT Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fëanor’s invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

{Noldoli}[Noldor] per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77 or late Tolkien writings.

{Peleg}[Huor] per QS77 and “Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin”.

{Place of the Gods}[Place of the Ainur]. Tolkien almost entirely drops “Gods” as a English translation in later writings. One would normally change “Gods” to “Valar”, but the Elvish form Gar Ainion specifically refers to the Ainur, that is, not just to the Valar but also to the Maiar and to the Ainur who remained outside EÄ. The English translation should be equally wide. “Place of the Holy Ones” would be full translation, but is perhaps to cumbersome.

{Sorontur}[Sorontar] per “The Etymologies” (under THOR-, THORON-) and “The Wanderings of Húrin” in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).

{Throndor}[Thorondor] per QS77 and LR.

{Tumladin}[Tumladen] per QS77.

{Amon Gwareth}[Amon Gwared] per “The War of the Jewels” (HoME 11), Part Two the Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12, “Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin”. Christopher Tolkien notes: To this my father made some corrections: Nivrost > Nevrast as in the preceding chapters; Eryd Wethion > Eryd Wethrin; Handir > Huor (see above); and Amon Gwareth > Amon Gwared.

{Gnome}[Elf] or [Noldo] and {Gnomes}[Elves] or [Noldor]. “Gnomes” was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in “the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not.” Then use Noldor.

{House of the Swan}[House of Hador] per UT when it refers to Tuors ancestry. The sign of Annael remains the Swan.

{Lothlim}[Lothrim] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Salgant}[Talagant] per “The Eytmologies”. Under the stem ÑGAN-, ÑGÁNAD- ‘play (on stringed instrument)’ which produces various forms meaning ‘Harp’ or ‘harp-playing’, is found:
talagant harper (*tyalañgando), cf. Talagant [>] of Gondolin [TYAL].
Under TYAL- ‘play’ is:
Cf. tyalañgandō = harp-player (Q tyalangan): N Talagand, one of the chiefs of Gondolin (see ÑGAN).
Christopher Tolkien adds a note to ÑGAN-, ÑGÁNAD-:
Talagant appears in literary source, but cf. Salgant in the tale of The Fall of Gondolin, the cowardly but not wholly unattractive lord of the People of the Harp: II. 173, 190-1, etc.
Talgand was almost certainly Tolkien’s planed replacement form for Salgant the lord of the People of the Harp.

{Thornhoth}[Thoronhoth] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Thorn Sir}[Thoron Sîr] This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomissh to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I’m not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

{Bad Uthwen}[Way of Escape], the Elvish name of the “Way of Escape”. The Etymologies” gives:
BAT- tread. *báta : ON bata beaten track, pathway; EN bâd.
But does Uthwen still exist in Sindarin in any form? If kept, it probably should appear as Bâd Uthwen with the circumflex accent.
Need be replaced by Way of Escape.

{Gar Ainion}[Place of the Ainur]. I originally thought to retain this. The logic was that Gar Lossion ‘Place of Flowers’ occurs as the Gnomish name of Alalminórë, replacing an earlier Losgar. This would not necessarily mean Losgar was incorrect, rather that Tolkien had replaced one correct form with another using the same Elvish words, ‘Flower-place’ by ‘Place of Flowers’. Since Losgar occurs in the Silmarillion tradition as the name of the place where Fëanor burned the ships, presumably gar is still valid Sindarin meaning ‘place’.
However upon closer examination the later ‘Losgar’ cannot mean ‘Flower-place’ which would be Lothgar. If gar means ‘place’ still, it might mean ‘Snow-place’ or ‘Snow-white place’. But I find nothing anywhere indicating what meaning Tolkien intended for this place-name, and the fact that the first element must now have a different meaning does not give me any confidence that the last element has the same meaning as in Gnomish.

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in –estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.
Nost-na-Lothion. Translated ‘Birth of Flowers’. In “Etymologies” under NŌ- ‘beget’ occurs Noldorin form noss ‘house’, example Nos Finrod ‘House of Finrod’. In BoLT 1 under Duilin, appears nos ‘house’ as well as related forms nosta- ‘be born’, nost ‘birth; blood, high birth; birthday’, and nôs ‘birthday’. Nost appears only in this citation and the name Nost-na-Lothion, none of the ‘birth’ forms appears later, so it is not at all clear that Tolkien would have considered it still valid. But no other words meaning “born” of “birth” are given by Tolkien, so this might still stand.

{Tarin Austa}[Gates of Summer], the Elvish name for the festival “Gates of Summer”. Nether of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning ‘small mountain lake’.) Sindarin tarn meaning ‘gate’ might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for ‘summer’ alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

{Glommweaver}[Ungoliant] and {Ungoliantë}[Ungoliant] per QS77

{Legolas Greenleaf}[Laegolas] Legolas means ‘green-leaves’ a woddland name – dialectical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lassē (High-elven lasse. S. las(s)) ‘leaf’; *gwa-lassa<gwa-lassie ‘collection of leaves, foliage’ (H.E. olassiē, S. golas, -olas); *laika ‘green’ –basis LAY as in Laire ‘summer’ (H.E. laica, S. leag (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg).”
Quoted from Letter 211.
“’Technically’ Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg ‘viridis fresh and green, and golass ‘collection of leaves, foliage’.”
Quoted from Letter 297.
‘ae’ and ‘ai’ are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad’s spear)).
Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor “older” word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old “Qenya” orthography.
Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas. –olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves.
Quenya laiqua (LAYAK) Sindarin cognate *laeb (Noldorin lhoeb in Etym.)
Quenya laica (LAY) Sindarin cognate laeg (cf. Q&E WotJ laegel, Laegrim)
The term Laiquendi “Greenelves” was likely originally conceived of as resulting from laiqua+quendi. But laica can also “fit” here, so to speak ~ according to Helge F., the element may be a reduced form of _laica_ , or prefixed _lai_ may represent only the base itself (LAY), or maybe even laica+quendi > Laiquendi considering rocco+quén > roquen “knight”.

{Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] per QS77.

{Gods}[Valar] Tolkien almost entirely drops "Gods" as a English translation in later writings.

{Diriel} and {Dinithel}[Amras] per QS77. But normally Amras will be deleted since we consider him killed by the burning of the ships at Losgar.

{Damrod}[Amrod] per QS77.

{Tun}[Túna] per Sil77

{Maidros and Maedhros to Maeðros per HoME X

{Celegorn}[Celegorm] per Sil77

{Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin] per Sil77

[Haleth]{Halmir} per HoME 11 when it refers to Haleth the Hunter

{Hundor}[Haldir] per HoME XI

{Haud-ina-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] per Sil77

{Nivrost}[Nevrast] per Sil77

Tower of {Ingildon}[Nimrais] per Sil77

{Teiglin}[Taeglin] per WH note 55:
Taeglin(d) better Taeglind
*taika (√taya mark, line, limit > tayak) mǽre, boundary, limit, boundary line.
linde 'singer / singing', name (or element in names) of many rivers of quick course that make a rippling sound.
mǽre is an Old English word of the same meaning. – It seems that the form chosen for the published Silmarillion should have been Taeglin rather than Teiglin (see p. 228, §28).

{Flinding}[Gwindor] per Sil77 but this change does only ocoure in the verse and Flinding is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Fuilin}[Guilin] per Sil77 but this change does only occur in the verse and Fuilin is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor, Guilin’s son] this seems to be covered by the two entry above but since in such lines Flinding and Fuilin are both in the alliteration it is here surely necessary to change the alliteration.

{Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith] per Sil77

{dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm] just for consistency.

{dwarfen}[dwarven] per Tolkiens general use of the old plural when refering to Dwarves.

{Tengwethil}[Taniquetil] per Sil77

{Ylmir}[Ulmo] per Sil77

{Nan-Tathrin}[Nan-Thatren] per Sil77

Tower of {Ing}[Ingwë] per Sil77

{Dorlas}[Darlas] per WH Note 55

{Dairon}[Daeron] per Sil77

{Inglor}[Finrod] per LotR

{Finrod}[Finrafin] per LotR

{Thu} and {Gorthu}[Sauron] or [Gorthaur] per LotR; this change is very difficult since Thu is often used in the rhyme. Tolkien replaced it in some cases by Gorthu but this is also not longer valid and its replacment Gorthaur does not work in the rhyming. Thus we have to find some individual solution for each line.

{Glorund}[Glaurung] per Wanderings of Húrin.

{Glingal}[Laurelin] per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line.

{Belthil}[Silpion] per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line.

{Cranthor} and {Cranthir}[Caranthir] per Sil77

{Egnor}[Aegnor] per Sil77

{Umboth-Muilin}[Aelin-uial] per QS77 and UT

{Lhandroval}[Landroval] per LotR

{Crisaegrim}[Crissaegrim] per Sil77

{Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per Sil77

{Gumlin}[Galdor] per HoME XI

{Bladorion}[Ard-galen] per HoME XI

{Noldorin}[Sindarin] per HoME XI

Dagor {Vreged-sir}[Bragollach] per QS77

Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame] per QS77

{Bëor}[Bregor] when referring to the Father of Barahir per HoME XI

{Gelion}[Duin Daer] per HoME XI

{Thargelion}[Talath Rhúnen] or [Dor-Caranthir] per HoME XI

{Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] per QS77

{Gochressiel}[{Crisaegrim}[Crissaegrim]] per QS77

{Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] for consistency with UT and QS77

{Galion}[Galdor] per HoME XI

{Gumlin}[Galdor] per QS77

{Úrin}[Húrin] per LR.

{Tinwelint}[Thingol] per LR.

{Hisilómë}[Hithlum] per “The Shaping of Middle-Earth”: The Sketch of Mythology
The six remaining sons of Fëanor (Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Damrod, Díriel, and Cranthir) ate encamped about the lake Mithrim in Hisilómë (Hithlum, or Dorlómin, the land of shadows in the North-west), when they hear of the march of Finweg and his men who have crossed the Grinding Ice.

{Rodothlim}[elves of Nargothrond] per QS77.

{Artanor}[Doriath] per QS30.

{Cûm an-Idrisaith}[Cûm-nan-Arasaith] (Mound of Avarice) per QS30. This need linguistic revision.

{Gwenniel}[Melian] per QS30.

{Angamandi}[Angband] per QS30.

{Nauglath}[dwarves of Nogrod] or [Naugrim] per QS77

{Indrafangs}[dwarves of Belegost] when not referring to the dwarves of Moria per QS77

{Karkaras (Knife-fang)}[Carcharoth ('the Red Maw')] per QS77.

{i·Guilwarthon}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per QS77.

{Sarnathrod} and {Sarn Athrad}[Athrad Daer] per QS77.

{Auredhir}[Eluréd and Elurín] per QS77.

{Ermabwed}[Erchamion] per QS77.

{Mavwin}[Morwen] per QS77.

{Nienóri}[Nienor] per UT.

{Egnor}[Barahir] per QS77 when it refers to Beren’s father.

{Galweg}[Orodreth] per QS77.

{Silver Bowl}[Dimrost] (the Rainy Stair) per QS77.

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Old 06-11-2006, 02:59 PM   #2
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Anotherone was found:

{Tavros} and {Tauros}[Tauron] per LQ

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Old 11-08-2006, 12:09 PM   #3
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{Díriel}[Amros] and {Amras}[Amros] due to The Shibboleth of Fëanor and The problem of ROS.

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Old 04-24-2007, 01:32 PM   #4
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A question arose that is best discussed here:
We have changed Maedhros to Maeðros. Does that mean that we also change Eledhwen to Eleðwen?

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Last edited by Findegil; 05-07-2007 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 05-13-2007, 04:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
A question arose that is best discussed here:
We have changed Maedhros to Maeðros. Does that mean that we also change Eledhwen to Eleðwen?
I think that it should. After all the change of dh to ð has to be valid in general I think. Perhaps Aiwendil could know more about it?

In our version of the Fall of Gondolin, in the later part that uses the material from the Tales, Echtelion, is called Lord of the Fountain, it should be Fountains, as it is in UT.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:08 AM   #6
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I have worked in the plural to title of Ecthelion.

If dh to ð is a general change then the following names must be changed:
{Eledhwen}[Eleðwen]
{Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]
{Glóredhel}[Glóreðel]
{Aredhel}[Areðel]
{Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð]
{Adanedhel}[Adaneðel]
{Annon-in-Gelydh}[Annon-in-Gelyð]
{Lisgardh}[Lisgarð]
{Haudh-en-Nirnaeth}[Hauð-en-Nirnaeth]

Radhurin I would not change because I think it renders to Rad-Hurin and not to Raðuirn.

Comments to all this neames are most welcome.

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Old 03-04-2009, 06:37 PM   #7
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If I may, I would suggest a reverse-change. "ð" to "dh," rather than vice-versa.

"Edh" is after all simply a single letter that represents the voiced dental fricative sound, much as "thorn" was a single letter used for the unvoiced dental fricative sound. In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien quite consitantly used "dh" for ð, just as he used (and we use) "th" for þ. See "Caras Galadhon."

The only reason I see for retaining ð is to give the Quenta Silmarillion a more archaic feel...but if that is the case, should we not be consistant and use þ as well?
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:49 PM   #8
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The dh > ð change we've been implementing was certainly not intended to create a more archaic feel (one of our principles is that personal aesthetic considerations are not to enter into our decisions). Rather, it was motivated by Tolkien's (rather late) apparent decision to use 'ð' rather than 'dh'. (I must admit I never got around to researching whether this was indeed his latest idea, but we had been assuming it was).

You raise a good point, though: 'dh' is used throughout The Lord of the Rings. A similar case is that of 'Orc' vs. 'Ork'; Tolkien's decision to spell it with a 'k' was not taken up by our project because throughout LotR it is spelled with a 'c'. I think the 'dh' issue is the same, and we must revert to 'Maedhros', etc.

Incidentally, it's a little odd that Tolkien apparently decided on a general change of 'dh' to 'ð' but not of 'th' to 'þ', isn't it? Thus we see 'Pengoloð', etc., but never, for example, 'Þingol'.
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:07 PM   #9
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Well, that's not exactly true; we do see the form "Þindikollo" in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor." But you're right, he didn't usually use that form.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:35 AM   #10
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Hello all

What do you think about {Valmar}[Valimar]
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:25 AM   #11
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Hello, Gondonwe, and welcome to the project!

Thanks for bringing this point up - I don't think we have discussed the name Valmar/Valimar before. It looks to me like this is another case where the spelling in The Lord of the Rings ('Valimar') must take precedence, so I think the change must be made.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:53 AM   #12
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I agree.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:24 PM   #13
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ð to dh: I do not really agree that we should go back to dh. dh is not as comen in English as is th and therefore it is more necessary to distinguish it from a combination of d and h by simple coincidenc. This is especially true if we consider that at the end of his life Tolkien did well know that his books would certainly find an international readership. Thus even so his elvish names were nromally not translated the reader not very familar with english would probably not be aware of dh representing the voiced dental fricative sound. th on the other hand much better known all ofer the world. Therefore a change form th to þ does not seem to be necessary. Concerning the spelling in LotR I do not think that we should look at the spelling in this book for evidence. Other then in content, I think that, the spelling could much more easily be changed in such cases like dh to ð or Orc to Ork.

Valmar versus Valimar: I wonder if Valimar is the later name?

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Old 03-06-2009, 05:13 PM   #14
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But dh is the modern spelling. It should simply be noted in a "note on pronunciation" like Tolkien had.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:32 PM   #15
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Concerning the spelling in LotR I do not think that we should look at the spelling in this book for evidence.
Why not? Aren't we obliged to use the spelling used in the works published during Tolkien's lifetime? Moreover, if readers are expected to make do with 'dh' in LotR, why shouldn't they in the Silmarillion? Indeed, one could even argue that readers used to 'dh' in LotR would be thrown off more by 'ð' than by 'dh'. Many readers (certainly most English-speaking ones) would be completely unfamiliar with the letter ð and would likely pronounce it as a 'd'.

On Valimar - I glanced quickly through HoMe earlier and it looks like 'Valmar' is the earlier (and far more common) form, though I'm not clear on whether 'Valimar' definitively replaced it or not. But the point is, I think, moot, as 'Valimar' is used in LotR and must take precedence.
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Old 03-07-2009, 05:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post

On Valimar - I glanced quickly through HoMe earlier and it looks like 'Valmar' is the earlier (and far more common) form, though I'm not clear on whether 'Valimar' definitively replaced it or not. But the point is, I think, moot, as 'Valimar' is used in LotR and must take precedence.
That what i think and for this reason I used Valimar in my "Traducciones"

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Old 03-07-2009, 04:46 PM   #17
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I decided to collect all the general name changes to date in alphebatical order for convenience. This should include everything in Findegil's list in post 1 as well as various other changes discussed in other threads. It's quite likely there are some I've missed, but these can always be added. I have for now left out dh/ð spelling changes since that issue's not yet resolved.

{Amon Gwareth}[Amon Gwared] per “The War of the Jewels” (HoME 11), Part Two the Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12, “Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin”. Christopher Tolkien notes: To this my father made some corrections: Nivrost > Nevrast as in the preceding chapters; Eryd Wethion > Eryd Wethrin; Handir > Huor (see above); and Amon Gwareth > Amon Gwared.

{Amras}[Amros] per Shibboleth and Ros

{Angamandi}[Angband] per Q30.

{Artanor}[Doriath] per Q30.

{Auredhir}[Eluréd and Elurín] per QS77

{Avranc}[Daruin] per WH note 55.

{Bad Uthwen}[Way of Escape], the Elvish name of the “Way of Escape”. The Etymologies” gives:
BAT- tread. *báta : ON bata beaten track, pathway; EN bâd.
But does Uthwen still exist in Sindarin in any form? If kept, it probably should appear as Bâd Uthwen with the circumflex accent.
Need be replaced by Way of Escape.

Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame] per QS77

{Bansil}[Belthil] per QS77

{Belthil}[Silpion] when it refers to the tree in Valinor, per QS77.

{Bëor}[Bregor] when referring to the Father of Barahir per HoME XI

{Bladorion}[Ard-galen] per HoME XI

{Bronweg}[Voronwë] per QS77and late 'Tuor'

{Celegorn}[Celegorm] per QS77

{Celon}[Limhir] per 'Of Maeglin'

{Côr} [Túna] or [Tirion] per QS77. In BoLT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the City and the hill on which it stands. It should be changed to 'Tirion' when it refers to the city and 'Tuna' when it refers to the hill.

{Cranthor} and {Cranthir}[Caranthir] per QS77

{Crisaegrim}[Crissaegrim] per QS77

{Cristhorn}[Cirith Thoronath] per QS77

{Cûm an-Idrisaith}[Cûm-nan-Arasaith] (Mound of Avarice) per Q30. This need linguistic revision.

Dagor {Vreged-sir}[Bragollach] per QS77

{Dairon}[Daeron] per QS77

{Damrod}[Amrod] per QS77.

{Díriel}[Amros] per Shibboleth and Ros

{Dorlas}[Darlas] per WH note 55.

{Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] for consistency with UT and QS77

{Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith] per QS77

{dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm] just for consistency.

{dwarfen}[dwarven] per Tolkiens general use of the old plural when refering to Dwarves.

{Eärendel}[Eärendil] per QS77and LR.

{Egnor}[Aegnor] per QS77 (except where it refers to Beren's father)

{Egnor}[Barahir] per QS77when it refers to Beren’s father.

{Elfinesse}[Elvenesse] per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

{Ermabwed}[Erchamion] per QS77.

{Finrod}[Finarfin] per QS77 when it refers to Felagund's father.

{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor, Guilin’s son] this seems to be covered by the two entries 'Flinding' and 'Fuilin' but since in alliterative verse Flinding and Fuilin are both in the alliteration it is here surely necessary to change the alliteration.

{Flinding}[Gwindor] per QS77 but this change does only ocoure in the verse and Flinding is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Fuilin}[Guilin] per QS77 but this change does only occur in the verse and Fuilin is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Galion}[Galdor] per HoME XI

{Galweg}[Orodreth] per QS77.

{Gar Ainion}[Place of the Ainur]. I originally thought to retain this. The logic was that Gar Lossion ‘Place of Flowers’ occurs as the Gnomish name of Alalminórë, replacing an earlier Losgar. This would not necessarily mean Losgar was incorrect, rather that Tolkien had replaced one correct form with another using the same Elvish words, ‘Flower-place’ by ‘Place of Flowers’. Since Losgar occurs in the Silmarillion tradition as the name of the place where Fëanor burned the ships, presumably gar is still valid Sindarin meaning ‘place’.
However upon closer examination the later ‘Losgar’ cannot mean ‘Flower-place’ which would be Lothgar. If gar means ‘place’ still, it might mean ‘Snow-place’ or ‘Snow-white place’. But I find nothing anywhere indicating what meaning Tolkien intended for this place-name, and the fact that the first element must now have a different meaning does not give me any confidence that the last element has the same meaning as in Gnomish.

{Gar Thurian}[Gar Thoren] per 'Etymologies':
under 3AR-, section GARAT-. The text is:
Quote:
GARAT-** Q arta fort, fortress.* N garth : cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin*** distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian.
Garthurian now has a different meaing as appears under the stem THUR- where it is an Ilkorin form and applies to Doriath, not Gondolin. The entry reads
Quote:
Cf. Ilk. Garthurian Hidden Realm (= Doriath), sc. garð-thurian; Noldorinized as Arthurien, more completely as Ar(ð)*thoren*:* thoren (* tháure¯na¯) pp. of thoro- fence [see 3AR].
So in the mature language system Gar Thurian or Garthurian is now a dialectical North Sindarin name for Doriath (with a proper Sindarin counterpart Ardh-thoren) and Garth(th)oren has taken its place as one of the by-names of Gondolin.


{Gelion} and {River Gelion} [Duin Daer] per 'Of Maeglin'.

{Glingal}[Laurelin] when it refers to the tree in Valinor per QS77

{Glingol}[Glingal] per QS77.

{Glommweaver}[Ungoliant] and {Ungoliantë}[Ungoliant] per QS77

{Glorund}[Glaurung] per Wanderings of Húrin.

{Gnome}[Elf] or [Noldo] and {Gnomes}[Elves] or [Noldor]. “Gnomes” was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in “the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not.” Then use Noldor.

{Gochressiel} [Crissaegrim] per QS77

{Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] per QS77

{Gondothlimbar}[Gondothrimbar] per 'Etymologies'; under GOND-, this later form properly rendering the meaning 'City of the Dwellers in Stone' in Sindarin.

{Gods}[Valar] Tolkien almost entirely drops "Gods" as a English translation in later writings.

{Gorthu} and [Sauron] or [Gorthaur] per LR; this change is very difficult since Thu is often used in the rhyme. Tolkien replaced it in some cases by Gorthu but this is also not longer valid and its replacment Gorthaur does not work in the rhyming. Thus we have to find some individual solution for each line.

{Gumlin}[Galdor] per HoME XI

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in –estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.

{Gwendelin} [Melian] per QS77.

{Gwenniel}[Melian] per Q30.

{Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per QS77

{Haleth}[Halmir] when it refers to Haleth the Hunter per LQ

{Haud-in-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] per QS77

{Hisilómë}[Hithlum] per “The Shaping of Middle-Earth”: The Sketch of Mythology "The six remaining sons of Fëanor (Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Damrod, Díriel, and Cranthir) ate encamped about the lake Mithrim in Hisilómë (Hithlum, or Dorlómin, the land of shadows in the North-west), when they hear of the march of Finweg and his men who have crossed the Grinding Ice.

{House of the Swan}[House of Hador] per UT when it refers to Tuors ancestry. The sign of Annael remains the Swan.

{Hundar}[Haldir] per LQ when it refers to Halmir's son.

{Hundor}[Haldir] per LQ.

{i·Guilwarthon}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per QS77.

{Ing}[Ingwë] per QS77

{Inglor}[Finrod] or [Felagund] per LR

{Inwe}[Ingwë] per QS77

{Indrafangs}[dwarves of Belegost] when not referring to the dwarves of Moria per QS77

{Isfin}[Aredhel] per QS77

{Karkaras} (Knife-fang)}[Carcharoth ('the Red Maw')] per QS77.

{Kôr} [Túna] or [Tirion] per QS77. In BoLT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the City and the hill on which it stands. It should be changed to 'Tirion' when it refers to the city and 'Tuna' when it refers to the hill.

{Legolas Greenleaf}[Laegolas] Legolas means ‘green-leaves’ a woddland name – dialectical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lassē (High-elven lasse. S. las(s)) ‘leaf’; *gwa-lassa<gwa-lassie ‘collection of leaves, foliage’ (H.E. olassiē, S. golas, -olas); *laika ‘green’ –basis LAY as in Laire ‘summer’ (H.E. laica, S. leag (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg).”
Quoted from Letter 211.
“’Technically’ Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg ‘viridis fresh and green, and golass ‘collection of leaves, foliage’.”
Quoted from Letter 297.
‘ae’ and ‘ai’ are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad’s spear)).
Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor “older” word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old “Qenya” orthography.
Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas. –olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves.
Quenya laiqua (LAYAK) Sindarin cognate *laeb (Noldorin lhoeb in Etym.)
Quenya laica (LAY) Sindarin cognate laeg (cf. Q&E WotJ laegel, Laegrim)
The term Laiquendi “Greenelves” was likely originally conceived of as resulting from laiqua+quendi. But laica can also “fit” here, so to speak ~ according to Helge F., the element may be a reduced form of _laica_ , or prefixed _lai_ may represent only the base itself (LAY), or maybe even laica+quendi > Laiquendi considering rocco+quén > roquen “knight”.

{Lhandroval}[Landroval] per LR

{Lothengriol}[Loth-a-ladwen] per 'The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin' (in 'Poems Early Abandoned, HoMe III).

{Lothlim}[Lothrim] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Mahtan}[Sarmo] per Shibboleth

{Maidros} [Maeðros] per HoME X

{Malkarauki}[Valaraukar] per Valaquenta published with QS77.

{Mavwin}[Morwen] per QS77.

{Meglin}[Maeglin] per QS77.

{Melko}[Morgoth] per QS77. After BoLT Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fëanor’s invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

{Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] per QS77

{Nan-Tathrin}[Nan-Tathren] per QS77

{Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] per QS77.

{Nauglath}[dwarves of Nogrod] or [Naugrim] per QS77

{Nienóri}[Nienor] per UT.

{Noldoli}[Noldor] per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77or late Tolkien writings.

{Noldorin}[Sindarin] per HoME XI

Nost-na-Lothion. Translated ‘Birth of Flowers’. In “Etymologies” under NO- ‘beget’ occurs Noldorin form noss ‘house’, example Nos Finrod ‘House of Finrod’. In BoLT 1 under Duilin, appears nos ‘house’ as well as related forms nosta- ‘be born’, nost ‘birth; blood, high birth; birthday’, and nôs ‘birthday’. Nost appears only in this citation and the name Nost-na-Lothion, none of the ‘birth’ forms appears later, so it is not at all clear that Tolkien would have considered it still valid. But no other words meaning “born” of “birth” are given by Tolkien, so this might still stand.

{Nivrost}[Nevrast] per QS77.

{Peleg}[Huor] per QS77and “Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin”.

{Pengolodh} and {Pengoloð} [Thingódhel] per Q&E

{Place of the Gods}[Place of the Ainur]. Tolkien almost entirely drops “Gods” as a English translation in later writings. One would normally change “Gods” to “Valar”, but the Elvish form Gar Ainion specifically refers to the Ainur, that is, not just to the Valar but also to the Maiar and to the Ainur who remained outside EÄ. The English translation should be equally wide. “Place of the Holy Ones” would be full translation, but is perhaps to cumbersome.

{Rodothlim}[Elves of Nargothrond] per QS77.

{Saeros}[Orgol] per CoH

{Salgant}[Talagand] per “The Eytmologies”. Under the stem ÑGAN-, ÑGÁNAD- ‘play (on stringed instrument)’ which produces various forms meaning ‘Harp’ or ‘harp-playing’, is found: (copy note)

{Sorontur}[Sorontar] per “The Etymologies” (under THOR-, THORON-) and “The Wanderings of Húrin” in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).

{Sarn Athrad} and {Sarnathrod}[Athrad Daer] per 'Of Maeglin'.

{Silver Bowl}[Dimrost] per QS77.

{Tarin Austa}[Gates of Summer], the Elvish name for the festival “Gates of Summer”. Nether of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning ‘small mountain lake’.) Sindarin tarn meaning ‘gate’ might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for ‘summer’ alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

{Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin] per QS77

{Tauros}[Tauron] per LQ

{Tavros} [Tauron] per LQ

{Teiglin}[Taeglin] per WH note 55:

{Tengwethil}[Taniquetil] per QS77

{Thargelion}[Talath Rhúnen] or [Dor-Caranthir] per HoME XI

{Thorn Sir}[Thoron Sîr] This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomissh to their QS77and LR Sindarin forms, but I’m not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

{Thornhoth}[Thoronhoth] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Throndor}[Thorondor] per QS77and LR.

{Thu} [Sauron] or [Gorthaur] per LR; this change is very difficult since Thu is often used in the rhyme. Tolkien replaced it in some cases by Gorthu but this is also not longer valid and its replacment Gorthaur does not work in the rhyming. Thus we have to find some individual solution for each line.

{Tinwelint}[Thingol] per LR.

{Tower of Ingildon}[Tower of Nimras] per QS77.

{Tumladin}[Tumladen] per QS77.

{Tun}[Túna] per QS77

{Umboth-Muilin}[Aelin-uial] per QS77and UT

{Úrin}[Húrin] per LR.

{Valmar}[Valimar] per LR

{Ylmir}[Ulmo] per QS77

Last edited by Aiwendil; 03-10-2009 at 08:25 AM. Reason: Added a few I missed.
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Old 03-09-2009, 01:12 PM   #18
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And What about {Celon}[Limhir]
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Old 03-09-2009, 01:43 PM   #19
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I think we simply mist that change.

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Old 03-10-2009, 05:38 AM   #20
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I added {Celon}[Limhir] and a few others I missed.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:58 AM   #21
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As a constructive question (I know I´m new here) If Duin Daer and Limhir are accepted. Why not Thargelian or Thorewilan for Thargelion?. That are from the same (I think) late source.

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Old 03-20-2009, 04:12 PM   #22
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I believe all the "Thargelion" forms were replaced by either "Dor-Caranthir" (so called by the Noldor) and "Radhrost." (the name in Doriathrin)

Or was "Radhrost" replaced by "Talath Rhúnen?" I was a bit confused as to whether that was a replacement or a translation from Doriathrin to common Sindarin.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:36 AM   #23
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Hello again

And what about {Gelmir}[Faramir] (the elf with Arminas)
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Old 03-25-2009, 01:54 PM   #24
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Good catch, especially since you found the source of the change in The Voyages of Earendil.

I think we have to change {Gelmir} to [Faramir] and exchange two of 'Falathar, Aerandir, and Erellont' with Faramir and Arminas, but which two?

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Old 03-25-2009, 02:07 PM   #25
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Are we sure about {Gelmir} [Faramir]? As far as I can tell, the only source is one of the Narn plot synopses, but I see nothing to suggest that this synopsis post-dates or takes precedence over the ones in which he is named Gelmir.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:24 PM   #26
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I think is not necessary exchange the companions of Earendil, although Tolkien had pointed it. Perhaps the best reason is that you said, whose two?

I found this change because with your work in the narn Hurin, have convinced me in retake my old work in this text and forget the official CoH of CT. But having as basis the CoH and adding the parts of the lay as prose. And of course with this I have to change for the brother of Gwindor whith the same name that is the fist reason to take the change. Change the other names and include as an appendix TWoH as i had edited it .

And for the same reason I revised my Beren and Luthien text enlarging as I could with more material from the lay to have more pages and can name it Narn.

And the new idea is to join the three narns in a book.
What do you think I wanted to tell this in the other thread but i tel you now.

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Old 03-26-2009, 06:52 AM   #27
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Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas is for sure a no go. And this is also for sure not a case like Rumil the sage of Trion and Rumil the marchwarden of Lorien. Both Gelimrs are from the same tribe of the Noldor.

But if we take up this part of the note, why not the one about these two beeing Earendils companiens later. And I made up my mind to which of the triple has to go instaed: Falathar and Aerandir. Both names sound to me like Epesse taken up after all the voyages undertaken with Earendil. My Elvish is wonting in this, but the first element in Falathar names a coastline and Aerandir means Seewanderer for sure, while I can't make much out of Erellont. Probably we should name them here with their fuller name:
Quote:
But Eärendil, alone of living Men, landed on the immortal shores; and he said to Elwing and to those that were with him, three mariners who had sailed all the seas beside him, and VE-11.025 Note from WH <Faramir> Falathar, <Arminas> Aerandir, and Erellont were their names:
The idea to put the three great tales in one book together is a sound one. When I started to involve my self to this project, also dreamed of a germany version of the final product. And for the fragments of the Lay's I thought of going the same way as your propose (I don't have the skill to recast them in apropirate lays in German). Such a tarnslation would also adress the stylistic issue that Lindil brought up earlier in the project, since any translation would smooth the style some what. But take care, it is a long and hard work.

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Old 03-26-2009, 07:17 AM   #28
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Of course the narns are in prose except some passages of the lay of Leithian but in spanish are not rhyme only rhetorical poetry language. But for this I have the english version to read it in loud voice.
I am a Wagnerian like Tolkienian and I like very much alliterative verses, that like the Narn Hurin would sound well in German.

A question, who are supposed to have composed the tales:

Ainulindale Rumil

Valaquenta Pengolodh?

Quenta Silmarillion Pengolodh

Narn Beren ?

Narn Hurin Dirhaval

Narn Gondolin Pengolodh?

Akallabeth ?

Of .... the second and third Age AElfwine?

Tale of Years First age Qennar Onotimo
Second Age Pengolodh?
Thiird Age


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Old 03-26-2009, 09:55 AM   #29
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas is for sure a no go.
I’m not sure of this. Aren’t both named ‘Gelmir’ in the ‘Narn’ material? It would appear that Tolkien felt the repetition of the name was not a problem. I suppose one could argue that he decided it was a problem and the name ‘Faramir’ was intended to resolve it. But there is no indication that the ‘Faramir’ note is later or more authoritative than the text that uses ‘Gelmir’. On the contrary, UT (though I admit it’s not the most reliable source) seems to suggest that the ‘final’ version (such as it was) uses ‘Gelmir’.

A word about the repetition of Elvish names in general – I’ve been rather convinced for some time now that Tolkien’s statement that this did not happen should be interpreted to mean that Elves did not honour ancestors or historical figures by giving their names to their children (whereas Men did). Names could however be repeated ‘accidentally’. Thus Galdor of the Grey Havens was not named after Galdor of Gondolin; he was merely given the name ‘Galdor’ which happened also to have been the name of one of Gondolin’s captains. The same applies to Rumil and to Legolas (though I know Findegil has other ideas about the latter). ‘Glorfindel’ was different because, as Tolkien says, it was 1. a striking and slightly unusual name and 2. the name of a very famous hero of the First Age. Similarly, we would not expect another Elf to be named ‘Feanor’, for example. Another situation in which Elvish names are repeated (perhaps more pertinent here) is within a family. Thus, unless my memory fails me, all of Finwe’s sons and all of Feanor’s sons were given the father-name ‘Finwe’ and distinguishing prefixes were adopted later. And then there’s the name ‘Ambarussa’ that Nerdanel gave to both of the twins.

The upshot of all this is that I feel it’s often not a problem for an Elvish name to be repeated. The two Gelmirs may have been named alike accidentally, by parents who were each unaware of the other. Or they could be related and Gelmir could be a repeated family name like ‘Finwe’. Add to this the fact that either name could be either a father-name, a mother-name, or an after-name.

I agree that ‘Falathar’ and ‘Aerandir’ sound like epessi. They could also be prophetic mother-names, with ‘Gelmir/Faramir’ and ‘Arminas’ being the father-names. But then, ‘Erellont’ could be an epesse as well (I’m not sure what it means either, though the ‘er’ might mean ‘one’, ‘alone’, as in ‘Eru’ and ‘Eriol’). Further, we have no way of telling whether Falathar is Gelmir/Faramir and Aerandir Arminas or vice versa. And finally, one could potentially interpret the note as altering the story so that Earendil had five companions rather than three. With all this uncertainty, I’m a little hesitant about introducing the names (though I’d like to).
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:58 AM   #30
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I do not have answeres for all the tales and I doubt some of the authors you put in:

I am not sure how was supposed to tell AElfwine the Silmarillion and the Valaquenta.

Narn Beren as you call it was old. I think we have signs that it was already known in Beleriand probably composed shortly after Beren and Lúthien returned from Mandos. But by whom, we don't know.

Narn Gondolin: I have no real idea, but in The Lost Tales it is told by Littlehaert son of Voronwe. He is not a bad candidate for that tale even so do not know if he ever apeared after The Lost Tales.

The Akalabeth was the work of Elendil. I think we are told so some were.

Of .... the second and third Age I don't think Aelfwine is a good candidate for this text. I would think Bilbo would be fitting.

Qennar Onotimo wrod some work about the counting of time but he is quoted in the Annals. That means it is more likly that Pengolodh worte the Annals of Aman. For the Gray Annals we are never told who made them. I wouldn't credit one single author with them. Probably they were gebun by Dairon but others finished them.
The Tale of the Years of the second and thrid age were made by Hobbits. I think Peregrin Took is credited with them. It is told in the prefarce of the Appendices.
I think that Tolkien later envisage all the Tales of the Years to have the same author. In the case of the First Age (and probably the the times before sun and moon) they were drawn from the longer Annals and for the later ages composed from the knowledge gained in Imladris and Minas Tirth.

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Old 03-26-2009, 10:30 AM   #31
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Cross posting with Aiwendil. (I never thought that this would happen!)

Do we real have on single text of the Narn that has in it Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas? I don't think so. But still the point has some wight looking into the Grey Annals, were the encounter of Túrin with Arminas and Gelmir originates. But still in that text it is a rider made later then the main body of the text in which Arminas and Gelmir come to Nargothrond.
The impresion from what we have of these notes and plot synposes is that Faramir was a later replacement probably oferlook when the typescript of the coming to Nargothrond was made.

I agree in pricipal that the reuse of names inside the elvish race was not very stricly followed. (Also it is not only Legolas who is one and the same in my oppion, we also sufficient hints that Galdor of the Havens was one and the same Galdor of the Tree, Lord of Gondolin.) A connextion between Gelmir co of Arminas and Gemil son of Guilin would be strange in my oppion. Wouldn't Gelmir visit his kin Gwindor and or Guilin who are prominent in the tale? Such a detail could of course be lost, but stil it seems unlikely to me. And for a simple coincidence they are not fare enough seperated for my feeling. Even so Gelmir co of Arminas had none, Guilin and his family had some high reputation about the Elves of Finrafins house.

All over I think it is safer to replace Gelmir by Faramir.

Your doubts about the companiens of Earendil have more wight. I have to look into some sources and consider this a bit longer before giving some appropirate answere.
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Do we real have on single text of the Narn that has in it Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas?
Well, the early portions of the Narn and the fragments from the middle are at least closely contemporary, and it certainly seems that Tolkien wrote about Gelmir the companion of Arminas when the story of Gelmir Guilin’s son was already in place. Note also that Gelmir Arminas’s companion appears in the later ‘Tuor’, written (as far as I can tell) after the Grey Annals but before the beginning and middle sections of the Narn.

But for me the question is simply this: was the note with the name ‘Faramir’ written before or after the text given in UT with Gelmir and Arminas? This is of course impossible for us to answer conclusively. From CT’s description of the note and from the text as presented in UT, I get the impression that the ‘Gelmir’ text is the latest form and that the plot-synopsis with ‘Faramir’ was only an outline that preceded it. I fully recognize though that the evidence is very shaky; and moreover it’s possible that CT himself misunderstood the relations among the texts when he published UT. Also, given that Gelmir and Arminas had already appeared in ‘Tuor’, it is perhaps a little strange that Tolkien should change the name to Faramir only to later revert to Gelmir. I need to think about this a little bit more (and would like to hear other opinions – Aran, Maedhros?), but I suppose I can see a fair argument for the change to Faramir.

On the subject of the authors of the texts, a few comments:

- I think that one cannot reconcile Tolkien’s latest ideas with Aelfwine of England as the transmitter of the legends, especially given Bilbo’s ‘Translations from the Elvish’. It has always seemed strange to me that Aelfwine appears in texts as late as the 1950s Ainulindale and the ‘Dangweth Pendolodh’, and I cannot fully explain this. But I think that, particularly once the idea entered that the Silmarillion was of Numenorean origin, Aelfwine ceased to be.

- I had always assumed the Valaquenta to be the work of Pengolodh, but searching for it a while ago I could find no statement at all pertaining to its authorship. Nonetheless, Pengolodh (Thingodhel, I suppose I must get used to calling him) seems a likely source.

- The Quenta Silmarillion is in MT said to have been written in Numenor. I think that this can be accepted even if one rejects the cosmological elements of MT.

- I seem to recall (though I’m not certain) a statement that all the ‘Great Tales’ of the Atanatarion were written by Men. That would mean none of ‘Beren and Luthien’, ‘Tuor’, or ‘Earendil’ could have been written by an Elf.

- I’m also quite sure Elendil is said explicitly to be the author of the Akallabeth, though I can’t recall the source at the moment. Perhaps LotR appendices?
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Old 03-26-2009, 01:41 PM   #33
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I believe LotR does name Elendil as the author of the Akallabeth; I'll check.

I personally believe that Tolkion envisioned many different versions of the Great Tales, all coming down different lines. I think that Bilbo's "Translations," the records of Minas Tirith and Numenor, and Ælfwine's translations in Tol Eressa were considered not mutually exclusive forms of transmission, but rather that Tolkien envisioned himself as taking them all together and plucking bits of information from each to get a rounded and complete history.

I will have to look into the Gelmir/Faramir issue more closely before formulating an opinion.
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Old 03-26-2009, 04:37 PM   #34
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As for the names: I think that if we assume a rule (or in my case if I assume a rule) there must be no exceptions, and I admit that I have no solution in the case of Rumil, and possibly will be the exception of all rules.
So, for me, there cannot be two Gelmirs. And as I said before Legolas of the LOTR cannot be in FoG, but Galdor is more possible (and i replace Legolas for Galdor as i said).

In the matter of transmission of the lore, Tolkien left unfinished this, ( I also can not explain Aelwine in post LOTR texts, but if he is, then Tolkien wanted to retake the character) and we can imagine things, because does not alter the history that is told. And i always thought that the hobbits and AElfwine are compatible.
At the time Aelfwine arrives in Eressea the hobbits are dead, the books in middle earth(Europe) are lost, and the only source is that of Eressea.
Aelwine talks with Pengolodh or whoever and translate the books of Bilbo and Frodo with material Numenorean and new material added when they arrived at the end of the third age in the isle, but also translate other material (because I think is not told what contains exactly the Translations of the Elvish of the Red Book).

The vision of the whole Aelfwine material must be human because part of the sources are human and he is a Middle Age human too.

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Old 03-27-2009, 04:15 AM   #35
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About Falathar, Aerandir, Erellont and Faramir/Gelmir, Arminas:

I looked up some more elements of the names:
FALAS - coastline, surfe; THAR - beyond => The name has a meaning like beyond the surf, out at the high see
Aerandir => Seewanderer
ERE - lonely; EL - Star; LONT - probably related to LOND way on see, passage as in Aqualonde = passage of the swans => I have no clou how to combine that with a good sense.

The three companiones were named in the Quenta Silmarillion for the first time. There Aerandir was named Airandir and that name was later changed on the copy made for the Later Quenta Silmarillion material. We can not say when this change was made, and we have no clou when exactly the note about Faramir and Arminas was written.

With all this uncertainties it would probably be the best solution to be ambiguous: We could us the not in the place were Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas leave Nargothrond and stick to the names of Earendils companions. Thus we leave all decisions to the reader. He can chose for himself out of the following possible interpretations:
a) Falathar, Aerandir and/or Erellont were epessi of Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas
b) Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas were companions of one of Earendils earlier journeys.
The only choice we remove is the possibilty that Earendil had more then three mariners with him on his last travel. But I see no way around here. We could either stick to three or we must ad some construction that makes clear that there were more. At least of course we could also skip the names and the number. But then we would have Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas named earlier and looking like Earendils sole companions.

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Old 03-27-2009, 01:09 PM   #36
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I think that solution is probably the best. One question we should at least consider is whether to note that they were companions of Earendil at their appearance in 'Turin' or their appearance in 'Tuor'. I suppose that since the idea appears in a Narn plot synopsis, it makes sense to go with the former, although that might be a little odd because their last appearance will be in 'Tuor' (even though it occurs earlier chronologically).
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:23 AM   #37
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I thought about how to introduce the note, and that is what came of it:
Quote:
Then {Gelmir}[Faramir] and Arminas departed, and went back to the South: but despite Túrin's taunts they would gladly have awaited battle beside their kin, and they went only because Círdan had bidden them under the command of Ulmo to bring back word to him of Nargothrond and of the speeding of their errand there. And NA-EX-56.65 <WH; Note 11 Faramir and Arminas were later Earendil's companions on voyage.> Orodreth was much troubled by the words of the messengers; but all the more fell became the mood of Túrin, and he would by no means listen to their counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down. For so much at least of the words of Ulmo were read aright.
I adopted Faramir for this extract because I think the discussion is leaning to this.

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Old 04-03-2009, 10:04 AM   #38
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What about {Lalaith}[Lalaeth] based on the genealogical tables associated with LQ2? These are from December 1959, which I'm fairly sure is later than the 'Narn' (though I can't find any definitive statement on when the early portions of the 'Narn' were written).
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:42 AM   #39
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Well, the ai<ae shift is pretty common in Sindarin. I'd say that change is likely.


Oh, and thank you, Aiwendil!

EDIT: "Thoron Sîr" should probably be altered to "Sîr Thoron" (as in "Aran Moria").

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Old 04-10-2009, 02:20 AM   #40
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Indeed, as Jallanite (I think) noted so long ago:
Quote:
{Thorn Sir}[Thoron Sîr] This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomish to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I’m not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.
Certainly it seems that if the meaning is to be 'River of (the) Eagle' then it would have to be 'Sîr Thoron'. But it seems to me rather that 'eagle' is being used adjectivally: 'Eagle River'. But I don't know if that kind of noun-noun construction is used in later Sindarin.

On another note: Having thought about it some more, I now think it quite probable that the plot-synopsis in which 'Faramir' occurs is later than the texts that use 'Gelmir' and that Tolkien changed the name precisely to avoid the repetition of the name. Earlier I had supposed that the fact that CT used 'Gelmir' in UT suggested he thought that was the final form adopted in the Narn. However, it now occurs to me that he likely used 'Gelmir' so as to agree with the '77. So I think we're agreed on {Gelmir}[Faramir] now.
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