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Old 08-28-2017, 03:24 PM   #1
Findegil
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

This is the first draft of the chapter 2 Of Valinor and the two Trees.

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 10; page 152-156. Were ever the text is different from that including the changes introduced in the second phase (LQ2) this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
VT-LQ-xx for Valinor and the two Trees and changes that Tolkien introduced himself, in the second phase of the work on the Later Quenta Silamrillion. I will not comment on these. They are only marked to make the construction of the text visible.
VT-EX-xx for Valinor and the two Trees, Expansions

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
VT-EX-01 {§11 Now in the beginning of the Kingdom of Arda … and many lands were drowned.
}{§12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas … and many evil things also of his own making.}
Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth.{ Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West.} VT-LQ-01 <LQ2But the {Gods}[Valar] removed into the uttermost West and there made their home and fortified it; and they built many mansions in that land upon the borders of the World, which is called Valinor. And Valinor was bounded upon the hither side by the Great Sea of the West, {[footnote to the text:] Which is Garsecg: quoth Ælfwine. [This note was mistakenly placed in the text by the typist, and subsequently reinstated as a footnote.]} VT-EX-02 { and eastward upon its shores the Valar built the Pelori, the Mountains of Aman, that are highest upon Earth.} <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.
VT-EX-03 <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith huge mountains between it and that plain which now they name Valinor, or the land of the {Gods}[Valar]. Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured{ for seven ages} at Manwë's bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil}a mighty mountain. <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolosse Everlasting Whiteness, and {Elerina [> }Elerrina{]} Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the {Gnomes [> }Sindar{]} spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.> {, and}And the world rumbled in the gloom and {Melko}[Melkor] heard the noises of their labour. By reason of their great masonry is {Erumani}[Avathar] now very broad and bare and of a marvellous level, for they removed all the stone and rock that {was}were there; but the Mountains of Valinor are rugged and of impregnable height. Seeing at length that these towered mightily between Valinor and the world the {Gods}[Valar] drew breath.>
Quote:
[NN ‘Mountain Landscape’; Artist; no. 53; p. 57]
Mountain Landscape
§13 Now in that guarded land the Valar gathered all light and all fair things; VT-EX-04 <LT and Aulë and Tulkas fared abroad with many of their folk and brought back all they might of marbles and good stones, of iron and gold and silver and bronze and all manner of substances. These they heaped amid the plain, and straightway Aulë began to labour mightily. At last he {says}said: ‘It is ill working in this gloom, and 'twas an evil deed of {Melko's}[Melkor's] that brought to ruin those fair lamps.’
But Varda answering said: ‘Still is there much light remaining both in the airs and that which floweth spilled upon the earth’, and she wished to gather new store and set a beacon on Taniquetil. But Manwë suffered not more radiance to be gleaned from heaven, for that the dark was already that of night, but at his asking Ulmo rose from his deeps and fared to the blazing lakes and the pools of brilliance. Therefrom he drew rivers of light into vast vessels, pouring back waters in their place, and with these he got him back to Valinor. There was all the light poured into two great cauldrons that Aulë fashioned in the gloom against his return, and those are called Kulullin and Silindrin.>
VT-EX-05 {and there are their houses, … Amon Uilos.[footnote to the text: In the language … quoth Ælfwine.]} <LT Now VT-EX-06{because of the bright trees }had Aulë light{ in plenty} for his works, and he set about many tasks, and Tulkas aided him much, and {Palúrien}[Kementári] VT-EX-07{ mother of magic} was at his side. First upon Taniquetil was a great abode raised up for Manwë and a watchtower set. Thence did he speed his darting hawks and receive them on his return, and thither fared often in later days {Sorontur}[Sorontar] King of Eagles whom Manwë gave much might and wisdom.
That house was builded of marbles … but in the plain VT-EX-08{ in the full radiance of the trees} was a cluster of dwellings … their stones were bound with {magic}[craft]. Separate from these and bordering upon the open vale was a great court, and this was Aulë's house, and it was filled with VT-EX-09{magic}[marvellous] webs woven ofVT-EX-10{ the light of Laurelin and the sheen of Silpion and} the glint of stars; … in the glory of the mind of Ilúvatar.
In this court were some of all the trees … were gathered by {Palúrien}[Kementári]'s maids for her feasting and her lord's.
Ossë too had a great house, and dwelt therein whenso a conclave of the Valar was held or did he grow weary of the noise of the waves upon his seas. {Onen}[Uinen] and the {Oarni}[Earni] brought thousands of pearls for its building, … but its gardens wandered marvellously about, winding nigh to VT-EX-11{the feet of Silpion whose shining lit them strangely}[Valimar]. They were full of labyrinths … that deep vat Silindrin.{ There it lay in a bed of pearls, … fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.}
Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, … Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked{ as is Makar}, albeit there are none of Valar or Uvanimor (who are monsters{, giants, and ogres}) that do not fear … There danced she among her maidens{ as long as Laurelin was in bloom}, for is she not greater in the dance than Vána herself?
In {Valmar}[Valimar] too dwelt Noldorin known long ago as Salmar, playing now upon his harps and lyres, now sitting{ beneath Laurelin} and raising sweet music with an instrument of the bow.{ There sang Amillo joyously to his playing, Amillo who is named Omar, whose voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches; but whiles if he sang not to his brother's harp then would he be trilling in the gardens of Oromë when after a time Nieliqui, little maiden, danced about its woods.}
Now Oromë had a vast domain … for beasts of prey dwelt not among them, nor did Oromë VT-EX-12 <editorial addition pursue them to death, when he> fare to hunting in Valinor. Much indeed as he loves those realms … Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that cauldron, gold Kulullin, filled ever with {the }radiance of{ Laurelin}[golden light] like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13 {was none ever of that splendour spilled from the vat of gold save when Vána's maidens led by Urwen left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but} by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.
Quote:
[The Tree of Amalion; Artist; no. 62; p. 64]
The Tree of Amalion
So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife{ of tears} might not endure to stay there long, … There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: … and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, … sorrows and blind grief.
The hall that she loved best was one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and she too named it {with her own name}, calling it Fui. … and {Fui}[Nienna] reads their hearts.>
Quote:
[Wickedness; Artist; no. 32; p. 37]
Wickedness
VT-EX-15 {§14 In Valinor Yavanna hallowed the mould with mighty song, … and they watched.}
<AAm §25 And it came to pass that, after Valinor was fullwrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, that the Valar had built their city in the midst of the plain beyond the Pelori. That city they named {Valmar}[Valimar] the Blessed. And before its western gate there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.
§26 Then Yavanna and Nienna came to that Green Mound; … And as the {gods}[Valar] watched, behold! upon the mound there> {§15 From the earth there} came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the slow chanting of {Palúrien}[Kementári]. Under her song two fair trees uprose and grew. Of all things which {the gods [> }she{]} made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder World are woven. The one had VT-EX-16 <LT {It had} a bark of tender white that gleamed like pearls and it grew VT-EX-17{even as }swiftly VT-EX-18{as had Laurelin, and as it grew the glory of Laurelin abated and its blossom shone less, till that tree glowed only gently as in sleep: but, behold, the other}, and waxed now to a great statureVT-EX-19{ even as lofty as Laurelin}, and its stock was VT-EX-20{yet more }shapely andVT-EX-21{ more} slender, and its rind like silk, but its boughs above were VT-EX-22{thicker and more tangled and its twigs denser}thick and tangled and its twigs dens, and they put forth masses of bluish green leaves like spearheads{.}> {leaves of dark green} that beneath were as shining silver{;}. VT-EX-23<LT Then did the Valar stare in wonder, but {Palúrien}[Kementári] said: ‘Not yet has this tree ceased its growing’, and behold as she spake it blossomed, and its blossoms did not hang in clusters but were like separate flowers growing each on fine stems that swung together> {and he bore white blossoms} like unto a cherry-tree, were it surpassing great and fair; VT-EX-24<LT and they were as silver and pearls and glittering stars and burnt with a white light; and it seemed as if the tree's heart throbbed, and its radiance wavered thereto waxing and waning.> {and}And from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, but the earth beneath was dappled with the dancing shadows of his fluttering leaves. Light like liquid silver distilled from its bole and dripped to earth, and it shed a very great illumination about the plain, {yet was that not as wide as the light of the tree of gold,} and by reason also of its great leaves and of the throb of its inward life it cast a continual flutter of shadows among the pools of its brightness, very clear and black; whereat Lóriën could not contain his joy, and even Mandos smiled.
>The other VT-EX-25 <LT {Behold from that place that had been watered from Kulullin} rose as a slender shoot, and from its bark pale gold effulgence poured; yet did that plant grow apace so that in seven hours there was a tree of mighty stature, and all the Valar and their folk might sit beneath its branches. Of a great shapeliness and goodly growth was that stock, and nought was there to break its smooth rind, which glowed faintly with a yellow light, for a vast height above the earth. Then did fair boughs thrust overhead in all directions, and golden buds swelled from all the twigs and lesser branches, and from these burst leaves of a rich {green whose edges shone.}> {bore leaves of a} young green like the new-opened beech; their edges were of glittering gold. VT-EX-26<LT Already was the light that that tree gave wide and fair, but as the Valar gazed it put forth blossom in exceeding great profusion, so that all its boughs were hidden by long swaying clusters of gold flowers like a myriad hanging lamps of flame,> {Flowers swung upon her branches like clusters of yellow flame,} formed each to a glowing horn that spilled a golden rain upon the ground; and from the blossom of that tree there came forth warmth{ and a great light}.
VT-EX-27 <AAm From those Trees there came forth a great light, and all Valinor was filled with it. Then the bliss of the Valar was increased; for the light of the Trees was holy and of great power, so that, if aught was good or lovely or of worth, in that light its loveliness and its worth were fully revealed; and all that walked in that light were glad at heart.>
VT-EX-28 <LT Then did the {Gods}[Valar] praise {Vána and Palúrien}[Kementári and Nienna] and rejoice in the light, saying to them: ‘Lo, {this is a}these are very fair {tree}trees indeed, and must have {a name unto itself}names unto themselves,’ and {Kemi}[Yavanna] said: ‘Let {it}[the one] be called Laurelin, for the brightness of its blossom and the music of its dew{,}.’> VT-EX-29<LT But Lóriën said: ‘Lo! I will give {this}the other tree a name and call it Silpion’, and that has ever been its name since.>
§16 Telperion the one was called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelote, and many names in song beside; {but the Gnomes name him [> }but in the Sindarin tongue he was called{]} Galathilion. Laurelin {was the other [> }the other was{]} called, and Malinalda, and Kulurien, and many other names; {but the Gnomes name her [> }but the Sindar named her{]} Galadloriel. [footnote to the text: Other names of Laurelin {among the Noldor [> }in the Sindarin tongue{] are [>} were{]} Glewellin (which is the same as Laurelin, song of gold), Lasgalen green of leaf, and Melthinorn tree of gold; and her image in Gondolin was named Glingal. {[Struck out: Of old among the Noldor] }The Elder Tree was named also Silivros {glimmering [> }sparkling{]} rain, Celeborn tree of silver, and Nimloth pale blossom. But in after days Galathilion the Less was the name of the White Tree of Túna, and his seedling was named Celeborn in Eressëa, and Nimloth in Númenor, the gift of the Eldar. The image of Telperion that Turgon made in Gondolin was Belthil. Quoth Pengolod.]
§17 In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full and waned again to naught; … And each day of the {Gods}[Valar] in {Valinor [> }Aman{]} contained twelve hours, and ended with the second mingling of the lights, in which Laurelin was waning but Telperion was waxing. VT-EX-30 <LT Then {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose and said to the {Gods}[Valar]: ‘Gather ye now all the light that drips in liquid shape from this fair tree and store it in Silindrin, and let it fare thence but very sparingly. Behold, this tree, when the twelve hours of its fullest light are past, will wane again, and thereat will Laurelin blaze forth once more; but that it may not be exhausted water it ever gently from the cauldron of Kulullin at the hour when Silpion grows dim, but to Silpion do ye in the same manner, pouring back the gathered light from deep Silindrin at every waning of the tree of gold. Light is the sap of these trees and their sap is light!’
And in these words did she signify that albeit these trees must needs be watered with light to have sap and live, yet of their growth and being did they ever make light in great abundance still over and beyond that which their roots sucked in; but the {Gods}[Valar] hearkened to her bidding, and Vána caused one of her own maidens, even Urwen, to care ever for this task of watering Laurelin, while Lóriën bade Silmo, a youth he loved, to be ever mindful of the refreshing of Silpion. VT-EX-31 <editorial addition As was told, before Silindrin was in the gardens of Lóriën.><LT There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered never to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.> Wherefore is it said that at either watering of the trees there was a wondrous gloaming of gold and silver and mingled lights great beauty ere one tree quite faded or the other came to its full glory.>
And the dews of Telperion and the spilth VT-LQ-04 <LQ2{[footnote to the text: meant to indicate that Laurelin is 'founded' on the laburnum. 'jocund spilth of yellow fire' Francis Thompson - who no doubt got the word from Timon of Athens (his vocabulary was largely derived from Elizabethan English)]} of Laurelin Varda let hoard VT-EX-32<editorial addition as well> in great VT-LQ-05 {vats}[wells], like {[struck out: unto] }shining lakes VT-EX-33 <AAm nigh to the Green Mound>, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light. VT-EX-34 <AAmThence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from {Valmar}[Valimar], so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>
VT-EX-35 <AAm {There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and}And Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Valar] dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä.>
VT-EX-36 <Ainulindale §33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor, … whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge.
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love.
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm … and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.
§36 But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, … the chief defence against Melkor.
§37 But Ulmo was alone, … will not until the end of days.
§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna … foreboding the wrath to come.>
VT-EX-01: Skipping these paragraphs is necessary to avoid redundancy with the new chapter 1.
VT-LQ-01: We have to eliminate the footnote due to the fact that Ælfwine is out of our version.
VT-EX-02 and VT-EX-03: Here I found a first snippet from LT that seemed to me worth considering. The choosing of the place for Valinor is given more space and a direct speech that was lost from the later versions.
VT-EX-04: This is explaining with the text from LT what LQ said only one half-sentence.
VT-EX-05: This is a long insert reaching until VT-EX-14. It is the description of the homes of the Valar from LT. Later in Tolkiens writing we never got such an detailed look into Valinor again.
VT-EX-06, VT-EX-08, VT-EX-10, VT-EX-11, VT-EX-14: In LT the Trees were already in being when the mansions of the Vala where build, but in the later chronology that was different. Therefore these changes.
VT-EX-07: I don’t think that Yavanna is any longer ‘the mother of all magic’.
VT-EX-09: ‘magic’ was later avoided by Tolkien in the descriptions of the works of the Valar.
VT-EX-12: In the Valaquenta we are told that Oromë trained his host in Valinor, for me that can only mean that they hunted in the woods.
VT-EX-13: Here I removed not only the reference to the Trees. I could not find any editing worth the information in which the sparse use of the light would be kept.
VT-EX-15: Here I replaced the bar § from LQ by a much fuller account from AAm.
VT-EX-16, VT-EX-23, VT-EX-24 and VT-EX-25, VT-EX-26: The description of the Trees in LT is more detailed and transports much more of the beauty of these wonders of the Elder Days.
VT-EX-17, VT-EX-18, VT-EX-19, VT-EX-20, VT-EX-21, VT-EX-22: In LT the golden Tree was the older one. But that was later changed. These changes are to adapt the text to the alter chronology.
VT-EX-27: A passage from AAm that is missing in LQ.
VT-EX-28, VT-EX-29: The detail from LT who had given the first names to trees should not be lost.
VT-EX-30: This is Yavannas instructing for the watering of the trees. I think it is later never mentioned, but it seem still valid for me, because of the ‘the Wells of Varda’ that Ungoliant drank and the fact that the trees could have been restored to life had there been some of their light left in Valinor.
VT-EX-31: This is an editorial bridge to get the insert about Silindrin working.
VT-LQ-04: I think this commentary in the footnote has to go.
VT-EX-32: Since we have Kulullin and Silindrin the Vardas Wells are not alone as hort for the light of the Trees.
VT-EX-33, VT-EX-34 and VT-EX-35: These add the use and its effect of the Wells of Varda.
VT-EX-36: Here we add the rest of the chapter from Ainulindalë. There is nothing corresponding to it in LQ.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:47 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
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This draft was amazing, and I love the inclusion of the BoLT material! I always wished we got more of a description of Valinor, and when I read the Lost Tales I was thrilled, so its nice to see them back.

VT-EX-03: in this paragraph there is (perhaps) a minor contradiction. In this paragraph we have the phrase:
Quote:
By reason of their great masonry {is}[was] {Erumani}[Avathar] {now}[then] very broad and bare and of a marvelous level,..
In Of the Darkening of Valinor we learn that:
Quote:
Thus unseen he came at last to the region that once was called Avathar, [footnote to the text: The Shadows (in ancient Quenya).] beneath the eastern feet of the Pelóri; a narrow land it had become, eaten away by the Sea, and was long forsaken.
This "had become" implies it was once not narrow, but I thought I would point it out to see if there was anything worth changing. It very well might be perfectly fine.

VE-EX-05: In the paragraph after this it describes Ilmarin and its great, but I have a linguistic note.
Quote:
That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called ilwë that is above the white and grey.
The word Ilwe is tied to older Qenya, and the element ilw- was changed to ilm- (cf. Ilwarin-Ilmarin, Ilwen-Ilmen) so this should be ilmë.

VE-EX-11.2: This is not related to the times of the creatin of the trees, but I was not sure how else to label it. In the paragrph describing the house of Tulkas, it describes the lawns of Nessa thus:
Quote:
But most she loved to retire unto a place of fair lawns whose turn Oromë her brother had culled from the richest of all his forest glades, and {Palurien}[Kementári] had planted it with spells that it was always green and smooth.
Earlier it says Lorien used poppies in his enchantments, but that I think is fine, but the word "spells" gives me pause. If you think it is fine, then I agree, I just figured I would point it out.

VE-EX-11.3: The very next paragraph is thus:
Quote:
In {Valmar}[Valimar] too dwelt Noldorin known long ago as Salmar, playing now upon his harps and lyres, now sitting{ beneath Laurelin} and raising sweet music with an instrument of the bow.{ There sang Amillo joyously to his playing, Amillo who is named Omar, whose voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches; but whiles if he sang not to his brother's harp then would he be trilling in the gardens of Oromë when after a time Nieliqui, little maiden, danced about its woods.}
If we are keeping Salmar, then why remove Omar? in the Coming of the Elves chapter you included him in the description of the Valar arming for battle and argued that he be kept, so why remove him here?

VE-EX-14.5: The paragraph describing Fui wife of Mandos cannot, in my opinion, be used to apply to Vaire or Nienna, as neither of them is strictly a death goddess anymore.
Quote:
To Vê {Fui}[Vaire] came not much, for she labored rather at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief. The hall that she loved best was one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and she too named it {with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. [i]Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that Melkor’s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Niënna] reads their hearts.[i]
The italicized parts are problematic. The first, bc Vaire is not the Vala associated with tears,which is Nienna, and also bc even Nienna is not associated with despair, but rather with pity, courage, and hope; The second, bc nowhere else is it said that Men are judged by Vaire, and in fact, says they are judged by Mandos. These passages about the afterlife are very tied to a brief phase of his conception of the afterlife that was very quickly discarded. Maybe the passage about Men could be appended to the Mandos paragraph?

VT-EX-15: the sentence: "That city they named Valimar the Blessed." is redundant, since its naming and making was described earlier.

VT-EX-29: The transition between Lorien's naming and the others feels jarring to me. I know you and I can clash often about stylistic changes, but I figure I'll propose mine and see what you think.
Quote:
VT-EX-29<LT But Lóriën said: ‘Lo! I will give {this}[the other] tree a name and call it Silpion’, and that has ever been [one of] its name[s] since.>
§16 Telperion the one was [also] called in Valinor, {and Silpion}, and Ninquelótë, and many names in song beside;
VT-EX-36: in §35 there is the sentence:
Quote:
And the Noldor it was who achieved the invention of gems, which were not in the world before them coming; and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.
I would delete the italicized phrase, since in the DoV chapter, it says how Feanor made gems better than the ones of earth, implying that they existed already. Since it is a later source, it should take precedence.

That was all I saw. It was great!
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:34 PM   #3
Findegil
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VT-EX-03: You are right. I suppose we remove 'very broad'. I will name that change VT-EX-03.2.

VT-EX-05: Agreed:
Quote:
That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called VT-EX-07.5{ilwe}[ilmë] that is above the white and grey.
VT-EX-11.2: For me 'spells' is okay.

VT-EX-11.3: Omar and Salmar: I wagly remember a discussion about this pair. With the result that I kept Salmar and removed Omar. In chapter 4 I simply forgot about it. But probably I have to look up the old discussion.

VE-EX-14.5: Agreed. We have to look for a solution. I like your idea to change the desscription of the jugdement of Men to Mandos.

VT-EX-15: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-15.3.

VT-EX-29: Agreed.

VT-EX-36: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-37.

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Old 08-30-2017, 06:11 PM   #4
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VT-EX-14.5: Here is my suggestion:

Quote:
Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain — and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while. There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might {again} be {born into their children,}[re-housed,] and go forth to laugh and sing again. <insert Thither came [also] the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that Melkor’s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Niënna] reads their hearts.>
To Vê {Fui}[Vairë] came not much{,}[.] {for she labored rather at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.} The hall that she loved best was one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and she too named it {with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.>
the tense shifts from past to present throughout the paragraph, should this be fixed? In addition the italicized bit should be changed to fit Tolkien's latest conception of elvish rebirth.

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Old 08-31-2017, 01:18 PM   #5
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What do we know about Nienna and Vairë? See here descriptions in the Valaquenta:
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... Vairë the Weaver is his[Mandos] spouse, who weaves all things that have ever been in Time into her storied webs, and the halls of Mandos that ever widen as the ages pass are clothed with them.
...
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
For Este we also have to take into account the Story of Miriel:
Quote:
Therefore when Nienna came to him and renewed her prayer for Míriel, he consented, accepting the abnegation of Finwë as her ransom. Then the fëa of Míriel was released and came before Manwë and received his blessing; and she went then to Lóriën and re-entered her body, and awoke again, as one that cometh out of a deep sleep; and she arose and her body was refreshed. But after she had stood in the twilight of Lóriën a long while in thought, remembering her former life, and all the tidings that she had learned, her heart was still sad, and she had no desire to return to her own people. Therefore she went to the doors of the House of Vairë and prayed to be admitted; and this prayer was granted, although in that House none of the Living dwelt nor have others ever entered it in the body. But Míriel was accepted by Vairë and became her chief handmaid; and all tidings of the Noldor down the years from their beginning were brought to her, and she wove them in webs historial, so fair and skilled that they seemed to live, imperishable, shining with a light of many hues fairer than are known in Middle-earth. This labour Finwë is at times permitted to look upon. And still she is at work, though her name has been changed. For now she is named Fíriel, which to the Eldar signifies 'She that died', and also 'She that sighed'. As fair as the webs of Fíriel is praise that is given seldom even to works of the Eldar.
This story as well makes clear that Vairë and Nienna were often among the dead Elves in the Halls of Waiting, because all the talk between Míriel and Finwë on the on side and Vairë on the other took place there and because Nienna is the one that approaches Mandos with the desire ofre-housing from Míriel.

So what do I make out of it: The Hall Fui is very unlikely a place ‘loved’ by Vairë. If the work of Míriel is taken as an example the House of Vairë is by no means dark form the inside. It must then be rather colourful. For Nienna on the other hand in here mourning and in teaching ‘pity, and endurance in hope’ the Hall Fui to which the dead Men are summoned and where they wait for a time before going to the fate Men, seems a very fitting place. Especially since the fate of Men had to be accepted in a way with ‘Estel’ only not with ‘Amdir’, that is with belief in the good will of Eru rather than with hope build on experience.
That said, I propose the following changes:[quote] So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Nienna] his {wife}[sister] of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. To Vê {Fui}[Nienna]

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Old 08-31-2017, 08:37 PM   #6
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I heartily disagree with this change for two reasons. Firstly, Nienna is said in the Valquenta to have Halls apart that are west of West upon the borders of the world. Therefore, while it says she comes to Mandos, she is not said to have a hall therein where she sits and passes judgement. Vaire, however, is said to dwell in Mandos, and is also said to have a house. These two facts would let us believe that she has halls in Mandos that are set apart for her. I do agree with you that the description of Fui does not fit her house at all in the later conception, and so cannot be assigned to her. But the fact remains that Nienna does not have a hall in Mandos, as she has already her own halls alone. She does not pass judgement on souls, but gives them comfort and consolation.
Quote:
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
My second objection stems from the fact that only Mandos passes judgement on the souls of the dead, be they Elf, Man, Dwarf, or Orc. Thus assigning Nienna (or Vaire) the role of judging Men is fan fiction at best, and contradictory at worst.

As you say, the description of her halls hardly fits the idea of them presented in the Statute and so perhaps it would be best to append the bit about the judgement of Men to the Namo paragraph, and leave the Fui paragraph out entirely.
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:56 PM   #7
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Okay, the idea behind my editing was the following: My addition of ‘in Mandos’ was meant as a statement that the hall Fui is not here ‘home’. But as your reaction makes clear this is not enough.
Nonetheless a few things I have to remark about your arguments:
- ‘reads their hearts‘ is by no means equivalent with passing judgement. The description of Vefanturs actions is clear. He does pass judgement. But Fui does only read in their hearts, which can as well have the intention to help them were specifically in the process of purging (since that seems to be the function of Mandos for Men and Elves: a kind of Purgatory).
- I didn’t say that the hall Fui would not fit the later Nienna. I said it would not fit Vaire! And that might have been true already in LT.
But however I agree that it is more save to shift both halls or at least both thrones to Namo:
Quote:
So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Vaire] his wife{ of tears} might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. VT-EX-14.5{To Vê Fui came not much, for she laboured rather at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.
}VT-EX-14.7{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and {she}he too named it{ with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before {her}his black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Namo] reads their hearts.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:34 AM   #8
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This is perfect, thank you
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:38 PM   #9
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We should more often look into Myths Transformed! I propose we take up these changes:
Quote:
And the dews of Telperion and the spilth VT-LQ-04 <LQ2{[footnote to the text: meant to indicate that Laurelin is 'founded' on the laburnum. 'jocund spilth of yellow fire' Francis Thompson - who no doubt got the word from Timon of Athens (his vocabulary was largely derived from Elizabethan English)]} of Laurelin Varda let hoard VT-EX-32<editorial addition as well> in great VT-LQ-05 {vats}[wells], like {[struck out: unto] }shining lakes VT-EX-33 <AAm nigh to the Green Mound>, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light. VT-EX-34 <AAmThence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from {Valmar}[Valimar], so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>
VT-EX-34.5 <MT; 2; Outline Varda {has}had preserved some of the Primeval Light (her original chief concern in the Great Tale). {The Two Trees are made. The Valar make their resting place and dwellings in Valinor in the West.
}/This she gave to the watering of the Trees. /Now/ therefore/ one of the objects of the Trees (as later of the Jewels) was the healing of the hurts of Melkor, but this could easily have a selfish aspect: the staying of history — not going on with the Tale. This effect it had on the Valar.>
VT-EX-35 <AAm {There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and}And Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Valar] dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä.>
VT-EX-36 <Ainulindale §33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only in Valinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn. And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, in many shapes of power and fear; and he wielded cold and fire, from the tops of the mountains to the deep furnaces that are beneath them; and whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge.
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love. VT-EX-35.5 <MT; 2; Outline They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.
Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar {find}found the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly and briefly (Oromë and Yavanna mainly).>
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm were the mansions of Aulë, and there he laboured long. For in the making of all things in that land he had the chief part; ...
On a more general note: Then Maiar that cared for Laurelin and later became the guide of the sun was in LT Urwen and Later Urwendi a maiden of Vána. Later she was named Ariën. But in MT she is named Āzi later namend Āri and is the most beautiful of Vardas maidens. In the farther course of that narrative she is then called Árië. I think we should take that last name and connection.

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Old 09-24-2017, 09:09 PM   #10
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I agree about the name change for Arien. In the second addition, it says that orome and Yavanna came "secretly" but Orome is explicitly said to come blowing his horn and driving all evil things away before him, not secretly.
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:14 PM   #11
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I agree with Arcus that this chapter is really good. The description of the tress is some beautiful writing. I also think skipping the chapters in VT-EX-01 makes sense with the revisions you made to Chapter 1. I have a few small comments/questions. It seems like you use "Kementari" for most of the text but occasionally use "Yavanna", i.e.:

Quote:
VT-EX-28 <LT Then did the {Gods}[Valar] praise {Vána and Palúrien}[Kementári and Nienna] and rejoice in the light, saying to them: ‘Lo, {this is a}these are very fair {tree}trees indeed, and must have {a name unto itself}names unto themselves,’ and {Kemi}[Yavanna] said: ‘Let {it}[the one] be called Laurelin, for the brightness of its blossom and the music of its dew{,}.’>
I prefer "Yavanna," but either way, I think it makes sense to be consistent. Also, I can't find the following:

Quote:
§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna … foreboding the wrath to come.>
It doesn't seem to be $38 in the Ainulindale in HOME 10. I agree with Arcus that Orome can't come secretly. I personally think most of the 2nd addition is redundant.

Sorry if I missed this discussion, but do you plan on keeping references to the children of the Valar? ("And the children of Manwe and Varda are Fionwe Uiron their son, and Ilmare their daughter."). The idea of Valar procreating and having children is strange to me. I think it makes more sense to make Eonwe (or Fionwe) and Ilmare Maiar.
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:59 PM   #12
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Silmaril

To respond to your points:

1. Kementari is used bc in the Lost Tales text, while her proper name is Yavanna, she is referred to often as Palurien, which was a title later replaced (in supremacy at least) by Kementari. (sidenote, Palurien is a valid title for Yavanna in Quenya, and I have contemplated lobbying to keep it in, but referring to one person by three different names throughout the narrative would be toooo much haha). Tolkien loves using titles to refer to someone rather than their formal name, especially when they are of extreme importance.

2. Interesting, I cannot find it either. Findegil, are we crazy? Also i agree that the second addition doesn't add any new info, and also is somewhat awkward in tone, and I do not see the need for it.

3. We are not including the children of the Valar at all, as this idea was abandoned by Tolkien.
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:51 PM   #13
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Yavanna Kementári: Consistence is nice but done to utmost it will become boring. It is not uncommon in Tolkiens works that important characters have more than one name, e.g.: Melkor/Morgoth/Baugron/Alcar; Finrod Felagund; Húrin Thalion, Beleg Cúthalion, Túrin/Agawaren/Mormegil/Turambar, Mairon/Sauron/Gorthauer/Annatar/The Necromancer to name just a few that come immediately to my mind.

Quote:
§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna ... foreboding the warath to come.>
That seems to be a example of my bad editing (or rather not catching that failure)! It is from the Ainulindalë D. But the passage was moved from Version C §34 to this place after §37. In HoMe 10 it is nominated ‘[§34]’ and we should probably stick to that.

VT-EX-35.7: The ‘secretly and briefly’ visits of the Valar. I agree that as it stand this would contradict Orome blowing his horn. Sincer we are talking about an outline versus more than one full story texts, I assume we should change the outline, but as minimalistic as possible. So I suppose:
Quote:
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love. VT-EX-35.5 <MT; 2; Outline They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.
Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar {find}found the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly VT-EX-35.7{and}[or] briefly (Oromë and Yavanna mainly).>
Yavanna and Aule stayed probably loner but they worked in secret, Orome came for hunting and open, but he stayed only briefly (implicit because otherwise Melkor’s agents would have gathered to fight him).

About the children of the Valar: They are removed or changed to Maiar or Valar of their own right. So both roles of Nonore and Fionwe are taken up by Eonwe. As well Orome is no longer the son of Yavanna.

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Old 09-26-2017, 01:54 PM   #14
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1. Palurien does sound really pretty to my ears, but I agree that three names is a bit too much. As long as when we first introduce her we use both names, I'm OK with using Yavanna and Kementari interchangeably.
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