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Old 08-28-2017, 03:24 PM   #1
Findegil
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

This is the first draft of the chapter 2 Of Valinor and the two Trees.

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 10; page 152-156. Were ever the text is different from that including the changes introduced in the second phase (LQ2) this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
VT-LQ-xx for Valinor and the two Trees and changes that Tolkien introduced himself, in the second phase of the work on the Later Quenta Silamrillion. I will not comment on these. They are only marked to make the construction of the text visible.
VT-EX-xx for Valinor and the two Trees, Expansions

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
VT-EX-01 {§11 Now in the beginning of the Kingdom of Arda … and many lands were drowned.
}{§12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas … and many evil things also of his own making.}
Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth.{ Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West.} VT-LQ-01 <LQ2But the {Gods}[Valar] removed into the uttermost West and there made their home and fortified it; and they built many mansions in that land upon the borders of the World, which is called Valinor. And Valinor was bounded upon the hither side by the Great Sea of the West, {[footnote to the text:] Which is Garsecg: quoth Ælfwine. [This note was mistakenly placed in the text by the typist, and subsequently reinstated as a footnote.]} VT-EX-02 { and eastward upon its shores the Valar built the Pelori, the Mountains of Aman, that are highest upon Earth.} <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.
VT-EX-03 <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith huge mountains between it and that plain which now they name Valinor, or the land of the {Gods}[Valar]. Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured{ for seven ages} at Manwë's bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil}a mighty mountain. <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolosse Everlasting Whiteness, and {Elerina [> }Elerrina{]} Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the {Gnomes [> }Sindar{]} spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.> {, and}And the world rumbled in the gloom and {Melko}[Melkor] heard the noises of their labour. By reason of their great masonry is {Erumani}[Avathar] now very broad and bare and of a marvellous level, for they removed all the stone and rock that {was}were there; but the Mountains of Valinor are rugged and of impregnable height. Seeing at length that these towered mightily between Valinor and the world the {Gods}[Valar] drew breath.>
Quote:
[NN ‘Mountain Landscape’; Artist; no. 53; p. 57]
Mountain Landscape
§13 Now in that guarded land the Valar gathered all light and all fair things; VT-EX-04 <LT and Aulë and Tulkas fared abroad with many of their folk and brought back all they might of marbles and good stones, of iron and gold and silver and bronze and all manner of substances. These they heaped amid the plain, and straightway Aulë began to labour mightily. At last he {says}said: ‘It is ill working in this gloom, and 'twas an evil deed of {Melko's}[Melkor's] that brought to ruin those fair lamps.’
But Varda answering said: ‘Still is there much light remaining both in the airs and that which floweth spilled upon the earth’, and she wished to gather new store and set a beacon on Taniquetil. But Manwë suffered not more radiance to be gleaned from heaven, for that the dark was already that of night, but at his asking Ulmo rose from his deeps and fared to the blazing lakes and the pools of brilliance. Therefrom he drew rivers of light into vast vessels, pouring back waters in their place, and with these he got him back to Valinor. There was all the light poured into two great cauldrons that Aulë fashioned in the gloom against his return, and those are called Kulullin and Silindrin.>
VT-EX-05 {and there are their houses, … Amon Uilos.[footnote to the text: In the language … quoth Ælfwine.]} <LT Now VT-EX-06{because of the bright trees }had Aulë light{ in plenty} for his works, and he set about many tasks, and Tulkas aided him much, and {Palúrien}[Kementári] VT-EX-07{ mother of magic} was at his side. First upon Taniquetil was a great abode raised up for Manwë and a watchtower set. Thence did he speed his darting hawks and receive them on his return, and thither fared often in later days {Sorontur}[Sorontar] King of Eagles whom Manwë gave much might and wisdom.
That house was builded of marbles … but in the plain VT-EX-08{ in the full radiance of the trees} was a cluster of dwellings … their stones were bound with {magic}[craft]. Separate from these and bordering upon the open vale was a great court, and this was Aulë's house, and it was filled with VT-EX-09{magic}[marvellous] webs woven ofVT-EX-10{ the light of Laurelin and the sheen of Silpion and} the glint of stars; … in the glory of the mind of Ilúvatar.
In this court were some of all the trees … were gathered by {Palúrien}[Kementári]'s maids for her feasting and her lord's.
Ossë too had a great house, and dwelt therein whenso a conclave of the Valar was held or did he grow weary of the noise of the waves upon his seas. {Onen}[Uinen] and the {Oarni}[Earni] brought thousands of pearls for its building, … but its gardens wandered marvellously about, winding nigh to VT-EX-11{the feet of Silpion whose shining lit them strangely}[Valimar]. They were full of labyrinths … that deep vat Silindrin.{ There it lay in a bed of pearls, … fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.}
Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, … Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked{ as is Makar}, albeit there are none of Valar or Uvanimor (who are monsters{, giants, and ogres}) that do not fear … There danced she among her maidens{ as long as Laurelin was in bloom}, for is she not greater in the dance than Vána herself?
In {Valmar}[Valimar] too dwelt Noldorin known long ago as Salmar, playing now upon his harps and lyres, now sitting{ beneath Laurelin} and raising sweet music with an instrument of the bow.{ There sang Amillo joyously to his playing, Amillo who is named Omar, whose voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches; but whiles if he sang not to his brother's harp then would he be trilling in the gardens of Oromë when after a time Nieliqui, little maiden, danced about its woods.}
Now Oromë had a vast domain … for beasts of prey dwelt not among them, nor did Oromë VT-EX-12 <editorial addition pursue them to death, when he> fare to hunting in Valinor. Much indeed as he loves those realms … Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that cauldron, gold Kulullin, filled ever with {the }radiance of{ Laurelin}[golden light] like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13 {was none ever of that splendour spilled from the vat of gold save when Vána's maidens led by Urwen left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but} by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.
Quote:
[The Tree of Amalion; Artist; no. 62; p. 64]
The Tree of Amalion
So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife{ of tears} might not endure to stay there long, … There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: … and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, … sorrows and blind grief.
The hall that she loved best was one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and she too named it {with her own name}, calling it Fui. … and {Fui}[Nienna] reads their hearts.>
Quote:
[Wickedness; Artist; no. 32; p. 37]
Wickedness
VT-EX-15 {§14 In Valinor Yavanna hallowed the mould with mighty song, … and they watched.}
<AAm §25 And it came to pass that, after Valinor was fullwrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, that the Valar had built their city in the midst of the plain beyond the Pelori. That city they named {Valmar}[Valimar] the Blessed. And before its western gate there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.
§26 Then Yavanna and Nienna came to that Green Mound; … And as the {gods}[Valar] watched, behold! upon the mound there> {§15 From the earth there} came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the slow chanting of {Palúrien}[Kementári]. Under her song two fair trees uprose and grew. Of all things which {the gods [> }she{]} made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder World are woven. The one had VT-EX-16 <LT {It had} a bark of tender white that gleamed like pearls and it grew VT-EX-17{even as }swiftly VT-EX-18{as had Laurelin, and as it grew the glory of Laurelin abated and its blossom shone less, till that tree glowed only gently as in sleep: but, behold, the other}, and waxed now to a great statureVT-EX-19{ even as lofty as Laurelin}, and its stock was VT-EX-20{yet more }shapely andVT-EX-21{ more} slender, and its rind like silk, but its boughs above were VT-EX-22{thicker and more tangled and its twigs denser}thick and tangled and its twigs dens, and they put forth masses of bluish green leaves like spearheads{.}> {leaves of dark green} that beneath were as shining silver{;}. VT-EX-23<LT Then did the Valar stare in wonder, but {Palúrien}[Kementári] said: ‘Not yet has this tree ceased its growing’, and behold as she spake it blossomed, and its blossoms did not hang in clusters but were like separate flowers growing each on fine stems that swung together> {and he bore white blossoms} like unto a cherry-tree, were it surpassing great and fair; VT-EX-24<LT and they were as silver and pearls and glittering stars and burnt with a white light; and it seemed as if the tree's heart throbbed, and its radiance wavered thereto waxing and waning.> {and}And from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, but the earth beneath was dappled with the dancing shadows of his fluttering leaves. Light like liquid silver distilled from its bole and dripped to earth, and it shed a very great illumination about the plain, {yet was that not as wide as the light of the tree of gold,} and by reason also of its great leaves and of the throb of its inward life it cast a continual flutter of shadows among the pools of its brightness, very clear and black; whereat Lóriën could not contain his joy, and even Mandos smiled.
>The other VT-EX-25 <LT {Behold from that place that had been watered from Kulullin} rose as a slender shoot, and from its bark pale gold effulgence poured; yet did that plant grow apace so that in seven hours there was a tree of mighty stature, and all the Valar and their folk might sit beneath its branches. Of a great shapeliness and goodly growth was that stock, and nought was there to break its smooth rind, which glowed faintly with a yellow light, for a vast height above the earth. Then did fair boughs thrust overhead in all directions, and golden buds swelled from all the twigs and lesser branches, and from these burst leaves of a rich {green whose edges shone.}> {bore leaves of a} young green like the new-opened beech; their edges were of glittering gold. VT-EX-26<LT Already was the light that that tree gave wide and fair, but as the Valar gazed it put forth blossom in exceeding great profusion, so that all its boughs were hidden by long swaying clusters of gold flowers like a myriad hanging lamps of flame,> {Flowers swung upon her branches like clusters of yellow flame,} formed each to a glowing horn that spilled a golden rain upon the ground; and from the blossom of that tree there came forth warmth{ and a great light}.
VT-EX-27 <AAm From those Trees there came forth a great light, and all Valinor was filled with it. Then the bliss of the Valar was increased; for the light of the Trees was holy and of great power, so that, if aught was good or lovely or of worth, in that light its loveliness and its worth were fully revealed; and all that walked in that light were glad at heart.>
VT-EX-28 <LT Then did the {Gods}[Valar] praise {Vána and Palúrien}[Kementári and Nienna] and rejoice in the light, saying to them: ‘Lo, {this is a}these are very fair {tree}trees indeed, and must have {a name unto itself}names unto themselves,’ and {Kemi}[Yavanna] said: ‘Let {it}[the one] be called Laurelin, for the brightness of its blossom and the music of its dew{,}.’> VT-EX-29<LT But Lóriën said: ‘Lo! I will give {this}the other tree a name and call it Silpion’, and that has ever been its name since.>
§16 Telperion the one was called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelote, and many names in song beside; {but the Gnomes name him [> }but in the Sindarin tongue he was called{]} Galathilion. Laurelin {was the other [> }the other was{]} called, and Malinalda, and Kulurien, and many other names; {but the Gnomes name her [> }but the Sindar named her{]} Galadloriel. [footnote to the text: Other names of Laurelin {among the Noldor [> }in the Sindarin tongue{] are [>} were{]} Glewellin (which is the same as Laurelin, song of gold), Lasgalen green of leaf, and Melthinorn tree of gold; and her image in Gondolin was named Glingal. {[Struck out: Of old among the Noldor] }The Elder Tree was named also Silivros {glimmering [> }sparkling{]} rain, Celeborn tree of silver, and Nimloth pale blossom. But in after days Galathilion the Less was the name of the White Tree of Túna, and his seedling was named Celeborn in Eressëa, and Nimloth in Númenor, the gift of the Eldar. The image of Telperion that Turgon made in Gondolin was Belthil. Quoth Pengolod.]
§17 In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full and waned again to naught; … And each day of the {Gods}[Valar] in {Valinor [> }Aman{]} contained twelve hours, and ended with the second mingling of the lights, in which Laurelin was waning but Telperion was waxing. VT-EX-30 <LT Then {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose and said to the {Gods}[Valar]: ‘Gather ye now all the light that drips in liquid shape from this fair tree and store it in Silindrin, and let it fare thence but very sparingly. Behold, this tree, when the twelve hours of its fullest light are past, will wane again, and thereat will Laurelin blaze forth once more; but that it may not be exhausted water it ever gently from the cauldron of Kulullin at the hour when Silpion grows dim, but to Silpion do ye in the same manner, pouring back the gathered light from deep Silindrin at every waning of the tree of gold. Light is the sap of these trees and their sap is light!’
And in these words did she signify that albeit these trees must needs be watered with light to have sap and live, yet of their growth and being did they ever make light in great abundance still over and beyond that which their roots sucked in; but the {Gods}[Valar] hearkened to her bidding, and Vána caused one of her own maidens, even Urwen, to care ever for this task of watering Laurelin, while Lóriën bade Silmo, a youth he loved, to be ever mindful of the refreshing of Silpion. VT-EX-31 <editorial addition As was told, before Silindrin was in the gardens of Lóriën.><LT There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered never to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.> Wherefore is it said that at either watering of the trees there was a wondrous gloaming of gold and silver and mingled lights great beauty ere one tree quite faded or the other came to its full glory.>
And the dews of Telperion and the spilth VT-LQ-04 <LQ2{[footnote to the text: meant to indicate that Laurelin is 'founded' on the laburnum. 'jocund spilth of yellow fire' Francis Thompson - who no doubt got the word from Timon of Athens (his vocabulary was largely derived from Elizabethan English)]} of Laurelin Varda let hoard VT-EX-32<editorial addition as well> in great VT-LQ-05 {vats}[wells], like {[struck out: unto] }shining lakes VT-EX-33 <AAm nigh to the Green Mound>, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light. VT-EX-34 <AAmThence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from {Valmar}[Valimar], so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>
VT-EX-35 <AAm {There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and}And Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Valar] dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä.>
VT-EX-36 <Ainulindale §33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor, … whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge.
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love.
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm … and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.
§36 But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, … the chief defence against Melkor.
§37 But Ulmo was alone, … will not until the end of days.
§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna … foreboding the wrath to come.>
VT-EX-01: Skipping these paragraphs is necessary to avoid redundancy with the new chapter 1.
VT-LQ-01: We have to eliminate the footnote due to the fact that Ælfwine is out of our version.
VT-EX-02 and VT-EX-03: Here I found a first snippet from LT that seemed to me worth considering. The choosing of the place for Valinor is given more space and a direct speech that was lost from the later versions.
VT-EX-04: This is explaining with the text from LT what LQ said only one half-sentence.
VT-EX-05: This is a long insert reaching until VT-EX-14. It is the description of the homes of the Valar from LT. Later in Tolkiens writing we never got such an detailed look into Valinor again.
VT-EX-06, VT-EX-08, VT-EX-10, VT-EX-11, VT-EX-14: In LT the Trees were already in being when the mansions of the Vala where build, but in the later chronology that was different. Therefore these changes.
VT-EX-07: I don’t think that Yavanna is any longer ‘the mother of all magic’.
VT-EX-09: ‘magic’ was later avoided by Tolkien in the descriptions of the works of the Valar.
VT-EX-12: In the Valaquenta we are told that Oromë trained his host in Valinor, for me that can only mean that they hunted in the woods.
VT-EX-13: Here I removed not only the reference to the Trees. I could not find any editing worth the information in which the sparse use of the light would be kept.
VT-EX-15: Here I replaced the bar § from LQ by a much fuller account from AAm.
VT-EX-16, VT-EX-23, VT-EX-24 and VT-EX-25, VT-EX-26: The description of the Trees in LT is more detailed and transports much more of the beauty of these wonders of the Elder Days.
VT-EX-17, VT-EX-18, VT-EX-19, VT-EX-20, VT-EX-21, VT-EX-22: In LT the golden Tree was the older one. But that was later changed. These changes are to adapt the text to the alter chronology.
VT-EX-27: A passage from AAm that is missing in LQ.
VT-EX-28, VT-EX-29: The detail from LT who had given the first names to trees should not be lost.
VT-EX-30: This is Yavannas instructing for the watering of the trees. I think it is later never mentioned, but it seem still valid for me, because of the ‘the Wells of Varda’ that Ungoliant drank and the fact that the trees could have been restored to life had there been some of their light left in Valinor.
VT-EX-31: This is an editorial bridge to get the insert about Silindrin working.
VT-LQ-04: I think this commentary in the footnote has to go.
VT-EX-32: Since we have Kulullin and Silindrin the Vardas Wells are not alone as hort for the light of the Trees.
VT-EX-33, VT-EX-34 and VT-EX-35: These add the use and its effect of the Wells of Varda.
VT-EX-36: Here we add the rest of the chapter from Ainulindalë. There is nothing corresponding to it in LQ.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:47 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
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This draft was amazing, and I love the inclusion of the BoLT material! I always wished we got more of a description of Valinor, and when I read the Lost Tales I was thrilled, so its nice to see them back.

VT-EX-03: in this paragraph there is (perhaps) a minor contradiction. In this paragraph we have the phrase:
Quote:
By reason of their great masonry {is}[was] {Erumani}[Avathar] {now}[then] very broad and bare and of a marvelous level,..
In Of the Darkening of Valinor we learn that:
Quote:
Thus unseen he came at last to the region that once was called Avathar, [footnote to the text: The Shadows (in ancient Quenya).] beneath the eastern feet of the Pelóri; a narrow land it had become, eaten away by the Sea, and was long forsaken.
This "had become" implies it was once not narrow, but I thought I would point it out to see if there was anything worth changing. It very well might be perfectly fine.

VE-EX-05: In the paragraph after this it describes Ilmarin and its great, but I have a linguistic note.
Quote:
That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called ilwë that is above the white and grey.
The word Ilwe is tied to older Qenya, and the element ilw- was changed to ilm- (cf. Ilwarin-Ilmarin, Ilwen-Ilmen) so this should be ilmë.

VE-EX-11.2: This is not related to the times of the creatin of the trees, but I was not sure how else to label it. In the paragrph describing the house of Tulkas, it describes the lawns of Nessa thus:
Quote:
But most she loved to retire unto a place of fair lawns whose turn Oromë her brother had culled from the richest of all his forest glades, and {Palurien}[Kementári] had planted it with spells that it was always green and smooth.
Earlier it says Lorien used poppies in his enchantments, but that I think is fine, but the word "spells" gives me pause. If you think it is fine, then I agree, I just figured I would point it out.

VE-EX-11.3: The very next paragraph is thus:
Quote:
In {Valmar}[Valimar] too dwelt Noldorin known long ago as Salmar, playing now upon his harps and lyres, now sitting{ beneath Laurelin} and raising sweet music with an instrument of the bow.{ There sang Amillo joyously to his playing, Amillo who is named Omar, whose voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches; but whiles if he sang not to his brother's harp then would he be trilling in the gardens of Oromë when after a time Nieliqui, little maiden, danced about its woods.}
If we are keeping Salmar, then why remove Omar? in the Coming of the Elves chapter you included him in the description of the Valar arming for battle and argued that he be kept, so why remove him here?

VE-EX-14.5: The paragraph describing Fui wife of Mandos cannot, in my opinion, be used to apply to Vaire or Nienna, as neither of them is strictly a death goddess anymore.
Quote:
To Vê {Fui}[Vaire] came not much, for she labored rather at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief. The hall that she loved best was one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and she too named it {with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. [i]Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that Melkor’s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Niënna] reads their hearts.[i]
The italicized parts are problematic. The first, bc Vaire is not the Vala associated with tears,which is Nienna, and also bc even Nienna is not associated with despair, but rather with pity, courage, and hope; The second, bc nowhere else is it said that Men are judged by Vaire, and in fact, says they are judged by Mandos. These passages about the afterlife are very tied to a brief phase of his conception of the afterlife that was very quickly discarded. Maybe the passage about Men could be appended to the Mandos paragraph?

VT-EX-15: the sentence: "That city they named Valimar the Blessed." is redundant, since its naming and making was described earlier.

VT-EX-29: The transition between Lorien's naming and the others feels jarring to me. I know you and I can clash often about stylistic changes, but I figure I'll propose mine and see what you think.
Quote:
VT-EX-29<LT But Lóriën said: ‘Lo! I will give {this}[the other] tree a name and call it Silpion’, and that has ever been [one of] its name[s] since.>
§16 Telperion the one was [also] called in Valinor, {and Silpion}, and Ninquelótë, and many names in song beside;
VT-EX-36: in §35 there is the sentence:
Quote:
And the Noldor it was who achieved the invention of gems, which were not in the world before them coming; and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.
I would delete the italicized phrase, since in the DoV chapter, it says how Feanor made gems better than the ones of earth, implying that they existed already. Since it is a later source, it should take precedence.

That was all I saw. It was great!
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:34 PM   #3
Findegil
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VT-EX-03: You are right. I suppose we remove 'very broad'. I will name that change VT-EX-03.2.

VT-EX-05: Agreed:
Quote:
That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called VT-EX-07.5{ilwe}[ilmë] that is above the white and grey.
VT-EX-11.2: For me 'spells' is okay.

VT-EX-11.3: Omar and Salmar: I wagly remember a discussion about this pair. With the result that I kept Salmar and removed Omar. In chapter 4 I simply forgot about it. But probably I have to look up the old discussion.

VE-EX-14.5: Agreed. We have to look for a solution. I like your idea to change the desscription of the jugdement of Men to Mandos.

VT-EX-15: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-15.3.

VT-EX-29: Agreed.

VT-EX-36: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-37.

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Old 08-30-2017, 06:11 PM   #4
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VT-EX-14.5: Here is my suggestion:

Quote:
Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain — and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while. There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might {again} be {born into their children,}[re-housed,] and go forth to laugh and sing again. <insert Thither came [also] the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that Melkor’s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Niënna] reads their hearts.>
To Vê {Fui}[Vairë] came not much{,}[.] {for she labored rather at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.} The hall that she loved best was one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and she too named it {with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.>
the tense shifts from past to present throughout the paragraph, should this be fixed? In addition the italicized bit should be changed to fit Tolkien's latest conception of elvish rebirth.

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Old 08-31-2017, 01:18 PM   #5
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What do we know about Nienna and Vairë? See here descriptions in the Valaquenta:
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... Vairë the Weaver is his[Mandos] spouse, who weaves all things that have ever been in Time into her storied webs, and the halls of Mandos that ever widen as the ages pass are clothed with them.
...
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
For Este we also have to take into account the Story of Miriel:
Quote:
Therefore when Nienna came to him and renewed her prayer for Míriel, he consented, accepting the abnegation of Finwë as her ransom. Then the fëa of Míriel was released and came before Manwë and received his blessing; and she went then to Lóriën and re-entered her body, and awoke again, as one that cometh out of a deep sleep; and she arose and her body was refreshed. But after she had stood in the twilight of Lóriën a long while in thought, remembering her former life, and all the tidings that she had learned, her heart was still sad, and she had no desire to return to her own people. Therefore she went to the doors of the House of Vairë and prayed to be admitted; and this prayer was granted, although in that House none of the Living dwelt nor have others ever entered it in the body. But Míriel was accepted by Vairë and became her chief handmaid; and all tidings of the Noldor down the years from their beginning were brought to her, and she wove them in webs historial, so fair and skilled that they seemed to live, imperishable, shining with a light of many hues fairer than are known in Middle-earth. This labour Finwë is at times permitted to look upon. And still she is at work, though her name has been changed. For now she is named Fíriel, which to the Eldar signifies 'She that died', and also 'She that sighed'. As fair as the webs of Fíriel is praise that is given seldom even to works of the Eldar.
This story as well makes clear that Vairë and Nienna were often among the dead Elves in the Halls of Waiting, because all the talk between Míriel and Finwë on the on side and Vairë on the other took place there and because Nienna is the one that approaches Mandos with the desire ofre-housing from Míriel.

So what do I make out of it: The Hall Fui is very unlikely a place ‘loved’ by Vairë. If the work of Míriel is taken as an example the House of Vairë is by no means dark form the inside. It must then be rather colourful. For Nienna on the other hand in here mourning and in teaching ‘pity, and endurance in hope’ the Hall Fui to which the dead Men are summoned and where they wait for a time before going to the fate Men, seems a very fitting place. Especially since the fate of Men had to be accepted in a way with ‘Estel’ only not with ‘Amdir’, that is with belief in the good will of Eru rather than with hope build on experience.
That said, I propose the following changes:[quote] So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Nienna] his {wife}[sister] of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. To Vê {Fui}[Nienna]

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Old 08-31-2017, 08:37 PM   #6
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I heartily disagree with this change for two reasons. Firstly, Nienna is said in the Valquenta to have Halls apart that are west of West upon the borders of the world. Therefore, while it says she comes to Mandos, she is not said to have a hall therein where she sits and passes judgement. Vaire, however, is said to dwell in Mandos, and is also said to have a house. These two facts would let us believe that she has halls in Mandos that are set apart for her. I do agree with you that the description of Fui does not fit her house at all in the later conception, and so cannot be assigned to her. But the fact remains that Nienna does not have a hall in Mandos, as she has already her own halls alone. She does not pass judgement on souls, but gives them comfort and consolation.
Quote:
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
My second objection stems from the fact that only Mandos passes judgement on the souls of the dead, be they Elf, Man, Dwarf, or Orc. Thus assigning Nienna (or Vaire) the role of judging Men is fan fiction at best, and contradictory at worst.

As you say, the description of her halls hardly fits the idea of them presented in the Statute and so perhaps it would be best to append the bit about the judgement of Men to the Namo paragraph, and leave the Fui paragraph out entirely.
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:56 PM   #7
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Okay, the idea behind my editing was the following: My addition of ‘in Mandos’ was meant as a statement that the hall Fui is not here ‘home’. But as your reaction makes clear this is not enough.
Nonetheless a few things I have to remark about your arguments:
- ‘reads their hearts‘ is by no means equivalent with passing judgement. The description of Vefanturs actions is clear. He does pass judgement. But Fui does only read in their hearts, which can as well have the intention to help them were specifically in the process of purging (since that seems to be the function of Mandos for Men and Elves: a kind of Purgatory).
- I didn’t say that the hall Fui would not fit the later Nienna. I said it would not fit Vaire! And that might have been true already in LT.
But however I agree that it is more save to shift both halls or at least both thrones to Namo:
Quote:
So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Vaire] his wife{ of tears} might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. VT-EX-14.5{To Vê Fui came not much, for she laboured rather at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.
}VT-EX-14.7{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and {she}he too named it{ with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before {her}his black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Namo] reads their hearts.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:34 AM   #8
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This is perfect, thank you
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:38 PM   #9
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We should more often look into Myths Transformed! I propose we take up these changes:
Quote:
And the dews of Telperion and the spilth VT-LQ-04 <LQ2{[footnote to the text: meant to indicate that Laurelin is 'founded' on the laburnum. 'jocund spilth of yellow fire' Francis Thompson - who no doubt got the word from Timon of Athens (his vocabulary was largely derived from Elizabethan English)]} of Laurelin Varda let hoard VT-EX-32<editorial addition as well> in great VT-LQ-05 {vats}[wells], like {[struck out: unto] }shining lakes VT-EX-33 <AAm nigh to the Green Mound>, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light. VT-EX-34 <AAmThence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from {Valmar}[Valimar], so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>
VT-EX-34.5 <MT; 2; Outline Varda {has}had preserved some of the Primeval Light (her original chief concern in the Great Tale). {The Two Trees are made. The Valar make their resting place and dwellings in Valinor in the West.
}/This she gave to the watering of the Trees. /Now/ therefore/ one of the objects of the Trees (as later of the Jewels) was the healing of the hurts of Melkor, but this could easily have a selfish aspect: the staying of history — not going on with the Tale. This effect it had on the Valar.>
VT-EX-35 <AAm {There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and}And Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Valar] dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä.>
VT-EX-36 <Ainulindale §33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only in Valinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn. And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, in many shapes of power and fear; and he wielded cold and fire, from the tops of the mountains to the deep furnaces that are beneath them; and whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge.
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love. VT-EX-35.5 <MT; 2; Outline They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.
Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar {find}found the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly and briefly (Oromë and Yavanna mainly).>
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm were the mansions of Aulë, and there he laboured long. For in the making of all things in that land he had the chief part; ...
On a more general note: Then Maiar that cared for Laurelin and later became the guide of the sun was in LT Urwen and Later Urwendi a maiden of Vána. Later she was named Ariën. But in MT she is named Āzi later namend Āri and is the most beautiful of Vardas maidens. In the farther course of that narrative she is then called Árië. I think we should take that last name and connection.

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Old 09-24-2017, 09:09 PM   #10
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I agree about the name change for Arien. In the second addition, it says that orome and Yavanna came "secretly" but Orome is explicitly said to come blowing his horn and driving all evil things away before him, not secretly.
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:14 PM   #11
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I agree with Arcus that this chapter is really good. The description of the tress is some beautiful writing. I also think skipping the chapters in VT-EX-01 makes sense with the revisions you made to Chapter 1. I have a few small comments/questions. It seems like you use "Kementari" for most of the text but occasionally use "Yavanna", i.e.:

Quote:
VT-EX-28 <LT Then did the {Gods}[Valar] praise {Vána and Palúrien}[Kementári and Nienna] and rejoice in the light, saying to them: ‘Lo, {this is a}these are very fair {tree}trees indeed, and must have {a name unto itself}names unto themselves,’ and {Kemi}[Yavanna] said: ‘Let {it}[the one] be called Laurelin, for the brightness of its blossom and the music of its dew{,}.’>
I prefer "Yavanna," but either way, I think it makes sense to be consistent. Also, I can't find the following:

Quote:
§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna … foreboding the wrath to come.>
It doesn't seem to be $38 in the Ainulindale in HOME 10. I agree with Arcus that Orome can't come secretly. I personally think most of the 2nd addition is redundant.

Sorry if I missed this discussion, but do you plan on keeping references to the children of the Valar? ("And the children of Manwe and Varda are Fionwe Uiron their son, and Ilmare their daughter."). The idea of Valar procreating and having children is strange to me. I think it makes more sense to make Eonwe (or Fionwe) and Ilmare Maiar.
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:59 PM   #12
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Silmaril

To respond to your points:

1. Kementari is used bc in the Lost Tales text, while her proper name is Yavanna, she is referred to often as Palurien, which was a title later replaced (in supremacy at least) by Kementari. (sidenote, Palurien is a valid title for Yavanna in Quenya, and I have contemplated lobbying to keep it in, but referring to one person by three different names throughout the narrative would be toooo much haha). Tolkien loves using titles to refer to someone rather than their formal name, especially when they are of extreme importance.

2. Interesting, I cannot find it either. Findegil, are we crazy? Also i agree that the second addition doesn't add any new info, and also is somewhat awkward in tone, and I do not see the need for it.

3. We are not including the children of the Valar at all, as this idea was abandoned by Tolkien.
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:51 PM   #13
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Yavanna Kementári: Consistence is nice but done to utmost it will become boring. It is not uncommon in Tolkiens works that important characters have more than one name, e.g.: Melkor/Morgoth/Baugron/Alcar; Finrod Felagund; Húrin Thalion, Beleg Cúthalion, Túrin/Agawaren/Mormegil/Turambar, Mairon/Sauron/Gorthauer/Annatar/The Necromancer to name just a few that come immediately to my mind.

Quote:
§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna ... foreboding the warath to come.>
That seems to be a example of my bad editing (or rather not catching that failure)! It is from the Ainulindalë D. But the passage was moved from Version C §34 to this place after §37. In HoMe 10 it is nominated ‘[§34]’ and we should probably stick to that.

VT-EX-35.7: The ‘secretly and briefly’ visits of the Valar. I agree that as it stand this would contradict Orome blowing his horn. Sincer we are talking about an outline versus more than one full story texts, I assume we should change the outline, but as minimalistic as possible. So I suppose:
Quote:
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love. VT-EX-35.5 <MT; 2; Outline They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.
Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar {find}found the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly VT-EX-35.7{and}[or] briefly (Oromë and Yavanna mainly).>
Yavanna and Aule stayed probably loner but they worked in secret, Orome came for hunting and open, but he stayed only briefly (implicit because otherwise Melkor’s agents would have gathered to fight him).

About the children of the Valar: They are removed or changed to Maiar or Valar of their own right. So both roles of Nonore and Fionwe are taken up by Eonwe. As well Orome is no longer the son of Yavanna.

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Old 09-26-2017, 01:54 PM   #14
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1. Palurien does sound really pretty to my ears, but I agree that three names is a bit too much. As long as when we first introduce her we use both names, I'm OK with using Yavanna and Kementari interchangeably.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:03 PM   #15
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Here is my new draft for chapter 2. I have kept most of Findegil's edit numbers, though in some cases where the edit has changed significantly, I've added a distinguishing letter; also, in cases where I've followed my own previous draft, I retain my edit numbers.

Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{to be deleted} = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
underlined = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

Quote:
VT-LQ-00.5 <2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees>

VT-EX-01b <AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and {the gods}[they] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. . . . upon the borders of the [ancient] world{; for its west . . . and beyond were the Walls of {the} Night}. VT-EX-02 <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> VT-LQ-01.5 <LQ But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircle{s}[d] the Kingdom of Arda, and {is}[was] called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide {is}[was] that sea none {know}[knew] but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it {are}[were] the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.>

VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith> <AAm upon the shores of the Sea {they raised} the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. {And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height which was called Taniquetil,}> <LT Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured {for seven ages} at Manwë’s bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil} the greatest mountain,> <AAm upon whose summit Manwë set his throne before the doors of the domed halls of Varda{.},> <LT and the world rumbled in the gloom and [Melkor] heard the noises of their labour.>VT-LQ-02.5 <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and Elerrína Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.>

Quote:
[NN ‘Mountain Landscape’; Artist; no. 53; p. 57]
VT-EX-03.1 <LT By reason of their great masonry {is}[was] {Erumani}[Avathar] now VT-EX-03.2{very broad and }bare and . . . but the Mountains of Valinor {are}[were] rugged and of impregnable height. Seeing at length that these towered mightily between Valinor and the world the {Gods}[Valar] drew breath; . . . At last he {says}said: ‘It is ill working in this gloom, and 'twas an evil deed of {Melko}[Melkor]'s that brought to ruin those fair lamps.’

But Varda answering said: . . . and with these he got him back to Valinor. VT-EX-04.1 There was all the light poured into two great {cauldrons}[wells] that Aulë fashioned in the gloom against his return, and those are called [Cululin] and [Silindirin].>

VT-EX-04.2<AAm But behind the walls of the Pelóri the Valar established their mansions and their domain in that region which is called Valinor. There in the Guarded Realm they {gathered}[had] great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; . . . and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Servants of Ilúvatar] dwelt there . . .

Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, . . . that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in [Eä].

And it came to pass that, after Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, VT-EX-04.3{the Valar built their city.} <AAm* in the midst of the plain west of the Pelóri Aulë and his people built for them a fair city. That city they named Valimar the Blessed.> VT-LT-03.5<LT No metal and no stone, nor any wood of mighty trees was spared to {their}its raising. {Their}[Its] roofs were of gold and {their}[its] floors silver and their doors of polished bronze; {they were}[it was] lifted with spells and their stones were bound with magic.> And before its western gate there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

Then Yavanna and Nienna came to that Green Mound; and Yavanna hallowed it, . . . But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears. VT-EX-15.5 [footnote to the text: <AAm* footnote For it is said that even in the Music Nienna took little part, but listened intent to all that she heard. Therefore she was rich in memory, and farsighted, perceiving how the themes should unfold in the Tale of Arda. But she had little mirth, and all her love was mingled with pity, grieving for the harms of the world and for the things that failed of fulfilment. So great was her ruth, it is said, that she could not endure to the end of the Music. Therefore she has not the hope of Manwë. He is more farseeing; but Pity is the heart of Nienna.]> Then all the Valar were gathered together to hearken to the song of Yavanna; and the mound was in the midst of the Ring of Doom before the gates of {Valmar}[Valimar], and the Valar sat round about in silence upon their thrones of council, and their folk were set before their feet. And as the {gods}[Valar] watched, behold! upon the mound there> VT-LQ-03.5 <LQ {§15 From the earth there} came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the slow chanting of {Palúrien}[Kementári]. Under her song two fair trees uprose and grew. Of all things which {the gods [> }she{]} made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder World are woven. The one had VT-EX-16 <LT {It had} a bark of tender white that gleamed like pearls and it grew VT-EX-17{even as }swiftly VT-EX-18{as had Laurelin, and as it grew the glory of Laurelin abated and its blossom shone less, till that tree glowed only gently as in sleep: but, behold, the other}, and waxed now to a great statureVT-EX-19{ even as lofty as Laurelin}, and its stock was VT-EX-20{yet more }shapely andVT-EX-21{ more} slender, and its rind like silk, but its boughs above were VT-EX-22{thicker and more tangled and its twigs denser}thick and tangled and its twigs dens, and they put forth masses of bluish green leaves like spearheads{.}> {leaves of dark green} that beneath were as shining silver{;}. VT-EX-23<LT Then did the Valar stare in wonder, but {Palúrien}[Kementári] said: ‘Not yet has this tree ceased its growing’, and behold as she spake it blossomed, and its blossoms did not hang in clusters but were like separate flowers growing each on fine stems that swung together> {and he bore white blossoms} like unto a cherry-tree, were it surpassing great and fair; VT-EX-24<LT and they were as silver and pearls and glittering stars and burnt with a white light; and it seemed as if the tree's heart throbbed, and its radiance wavered thereto waxing and waning.> {and}And from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, but the earth beneath was dappled with the dancing shadows of his fluttering leaves. Light like liquid silver distilled from its bole and dripped to earth, and it shed a very great illumination about the plain, {yet was that not as wide as the light of the tree of gold,} and by reason also of its great leaves and of the throb of its inward life it cast a continual flutter of shadows among the pools of its brightness, very clear and black; whereat Lóriën could not contain his joy, and even Mandos smiled. But Lóriën said: ‘Lo! I will give this tree a name and call it ‘Silpion’, and that has ever been one of its {name}names since.>

<LQ The other VT-EX-25 <LT {Behold from that place that had been watered from Kulullin} rose as a slender shoot, and from its bark pale gold effulgence poured; VT-EX-25.5 <LT and as it grew the {glory}[sheen] of [Silpion] abated and its blossom shone less, till that tree glowed only gently as in sleep:> yet did that other plant grow apace so that in seven hours . . . and golden buds swelled from all the twigs and lesser branches, and from these burst leaves of a rich {green whose edges shone.}> {bore leaves of a} young green like the new-opened beech; their edges were of glittering gold. VT-EX-26<LT Already was the light that that tree gave wide and fair, but as the Valar gazed it put forth blossom in exceeding great profusion, so that all its boughs were hidden by long swaying clusters of gold flowers like a myriad hanging lamps of flame,> {Flowers swung upon her branches like clusters of yellow flame,} formed each to a glowing horn that spilled a golden rain upon the ground; and from the blossom of that tree there came forth warmth{ and a great light}.> VT-EX-26.5 <LT {and}And {Kemi}[Yavanna] said: ‘Let it be called Laurelin, for the brightness of its blossom and the music of its dew{,}.’>

VT-EX-27 <AAm From those Trees there came forth a great light, . . . and all that walked in that light were glad at heart.> VT-EX-28 <LT Then did the {Gods}[Valar] praise {Vána and Palúrien}[Kementári and Nienna] and rejoice in the light, saying to them: ‘Lo, {this is a}these are very fair {tree}trees indeed,{ and must have a name unto itself,}’>

<LQ Telperion the one was also called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelote, and many names in song beside; {but the Gnomes name him [> }but in the Sindarin tongue he was called{]} Galathilion. Laurelin {was the other [> }the other was{]} called, and Malinalda, and [C]ulurien, and many other names; {but the Gnomes name her [> }but the Sindar named her{]} Galadloriel. [footnote to the text: Other names of Laurelin {among the Noldor [> }in the Sindarin tongue{] are [>} were{]} Glewellin (which is the same as Laurelin, song of gold), Lasgalen green of leaf, and Melthinorn tree of gold; and her image in Gondolin was named Glingal. {[Struck out: Of old among the Noldor] }The Elder Tree was named also Silivros {glimmering [> }sparkling{]} rain, Celeborn tree of silver, and Nimloth pale blossom. But in after days Galathilion the Less was the name of the White Tree of Túna, and his seedling was named Celeborn in Eressëa, and Nimloth in Númenor, the gift of the Eldar. The image of Telperion that Turgon made in Gondolin was Belthil. Quoth {Pengolod}[Pengolodh].]>

VT-EX-30 <LT Then {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose and said to the {Gods}[Valar]: ‘Gather ye now all the light that drips in liquid shape from this {fair}[golden] tree and store it in [Cululin], and let it fare thence but very sparingly. Behold, this tree, when the twelve hours of its fullest light are past, will wane again, and thereat will {Laurelin}[Silpion] {blaze}[shine] forth once more; but that it may not be exhausted water it ever gently from the {cauldron}[well] of {Kulullin}[Silindirin] at the hour when {Silpion}[Laurelin] grows dim, but to {Silpion}[Laurelin] do ye in the same manner, pouring back the gathered light from deep {Silindrin}[Cululin] at every waning of the tree of {gold}silver. Light is the sap of these trees and their sap is light!’

And in these words did she signify that . . . and beyond that which their roots sucked in; but VT-EX-30.1{the {Gods}[Valar]}[Varda] hearkened to her bidding, and {Vána} caused one of her own maidens, even {Urwen}[Árië], to care ever for this task of watering Laurelin, while {Lóriën}[she] bade Silmo, a youth {he} loved by Lóriën, to be ever mindful of the refreshing of Silpion.>

<LQ In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full . . . the {gods}[Valar] reckoned not into the tale of hours, but named it the Opening Hour, . . . And each day of the {Gods}[Valar] in {Valinor [> }Aman{]} contained twelve hours, and ended with the second mingling of the lights, in which Laurelin was waning but Telperion was waxing. VT-LQ-04b And the dews of Telperion and the spilth of Laurelin {Varda let hoard}were hoarded in the great {vats}[wells] Cululin and Silindirin, like {[struck out: unto]} shining lakes, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light.> VT-EX-34<AAm Thence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from Valmar, so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>

VT-EX-36b <QS77 But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Iluvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea.> <Ainulindalë D And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, . . . whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge. VT-EX-36.5 <LQ2 The chief of his fortresses was at Utumno in the North of Middle-earth; but he made also a fortress and armoury not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea, to resist any assault from Aman. This was called Angband and was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor.>

But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, . . . And the Noldor it was who achieved the invention of gems, VT-EX-37{which were not in the world before their coming; }and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.

VT-LT-04<LT Separate from {these}[Valimar] and bordering upon the open vale . . .

In this court were some of all the trees . . . and were gathered by [Kementári’s] maids for her feasting and her lord’s.>

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, . . . standing upon the margin of the Seas. VT-LT-05<LT That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called ilwë that is above the white and grey. This web did Aulë and his wife contrive, but Varda spangled it with stars, and Manwë dwelt thereunder[.]> Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew . . . and he is King of the world of {gods}[Valar] and elves and men, the vicegerent of Ilúvatar, and the chief defence against the evil of Melkor.

VT-LT-06 <LT Lórien {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Lórien, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. . . . They were full of labyrinths and mazes, for [Kementári] had given Lórien great wealth of yewtrees and cedars, . . . There too grew the poppies glowing redly in the dusk, and those the [Valar] called fumellar the flowers of sleep—and Lórien used them much in his enchantments.>

VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, and he dwelt amidmost of Val[i]mar. Most youthful is he and strong of limb and lusty, and for that is he named [Astaldo] who loveth games and twanging of bows and boxing, wrestling, running, and leaping, and songs that go with a swing and a toss of a well-filled cup. VT-LT-08b {Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked as is Makar, albeit there are none of Valar or Úvanimor (who are monsters, giants, and ogres) that do not fear the sinews of his arm and the buffet of his iron-clad fist, when he has cause for wrath.} His was a house of mirth and revelry; . . . and [Kementári] had planted it with spells that it was always green and smooth. There danced she among her maidens as long as Laurelin was in bloom, for is she not greater in the dance than Vána herself?> VT-LT08.5 < In Val[i]mar too dwelt Noldorin known long ago as Salmar, playing now upon his harps and lyres, now sitting beneath Laurelin and raising sweet music with an instrument of the bow>

VT-LT-09<LT Ossë too had a great house, and dwelt therein whenso a conclave of the Valar was held or did he grow weary of the noise of the waves upon his seas. [Uinen] and the [Eärni] brought thousands of pearls for its building, and its floors were of sea-water, and its tapestries like the glint of the silver skins of fishes, and it was roofed with foam.>

But Ulmo was alone, and he abode not in Valinor, nor ever came thither unless there was need for a great council, when VT-LT-10 <LT he would go as guest to the halls of Manwë>: he dwelt from the beginning of Arda in the Outer Ocean, . . .

And in that time of dark Yavanna also was unwilling utterly to forsake the outer lands; . . . they must surely wage ere the coming of the Firstborn.

VT-LT-11{And}[Now] Oromë tamer of beasts <LT {Now Oromë} had a vast domain and it was beloved by him{, and no less by Palúrien his mother.} Behold, the groves of trees {they}[he and Yavanna] planted upon the plain of Valinor and even upon the foothills of the mountains have no compare on Earth. . . . but these strayed never into the gardens of the {Gods}[Valar], yet were they in peace and had no fear, for beasts of prey dwelt not among them, nor did Oromë fare to hunting in Valinor. Much indeed as he loves those realms yet> he would ride too at whiles . . . and even the heart of Melkor himself was shaken, foreboding the wrath to come. b]VT-LT-11.5[/b] <LT But in Valmar his halls are wide and low, . . . Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring.>

VT-LT-12<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that Námo and [Vairë] his wife {of tears} might not endure to stay there long, . . . that rise here again almost to their height nigh [Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the [Valar] might be housed to their liking, . . . and all that deep abode is known to [Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat Námo{, and he called that hall with his own name Vê}. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, . . . until such time as he appointed when they might again {be born into their children}[take body], and go forth to laugh and sing again.>

VT-LT-13<LT {for she}[But Nienna] laboured {rather} at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears . . . The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[Mandos]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui.} Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.>
VT-EX-01b, -EX-02, -LQ-01.5, -LQ-02: This is very similar to Findegil’s version, but I have edited it slightly differently.

VT-LQ-01.5: I've changed the present tense of LQ to past to match the language of AAm. Particularly in view of the addition of "ancient" in the typescript AAm*, it must be the case that this describes the world as it was then, but not after the fall of Numenor.

VT-EX-03b: Here I mix LT with AAm, chiefly in order to mention the name ‘Pelóri’, and to get the detail that Manwë’s throne is atop Taniquetil. The latter point, though, may not be needed here, since Manwe’s dwelling is described in full at the end of the chapter. I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place.

VT-EX-03.1, -03.2: I remove a historical present here, but otherwise this is almost identical to Findegil’s version.

VT-EX-04.1: Here I change the “cauldrons” to “wells” and use the updated names “Cululin” and “Silindirin”.

VT-EX-04.2: Here I return to AAm, since we are using putting the descriptions of the Valar’s dwellings at the end of the chapter. The change of ‘gods’ to ‘Servants of Ilúvatar’ is from the typescript AAm*

VT-EX-04.3: A change from AAm*.

VT-LT-03.5: Although the description of the Valar’s mansions is saved for later, this seems the best place for these details of Valimar.

VT-EX-15.5: I think this footnote should be used (as a footnote) in our version.

VT-LQ-03.5: This is as in Findegil’s version; I just supply an editing number here for the switch to LQ.

VT-EX-16 through -23: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-24: I keep Lorien’s naming of Silpion immediately after the description of Silpion’s growth.

VT-EX-25: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-25.5: In Findegil’s draft, the re-ordering of the growth of the Trees means that we don’t say that Telperion’s light decreases while Laurelin is growing; but Yavanna’s speech following this assumes that it has. I’ve tried to rectify this by taking the passage in LT telling that Laurelin waned as Silpion waxed, and simply changing the name of the Tree. But because “glory” seems more apt for golden Laurelin, I’ve changed it to the “sheen” of Silpion.

VT-EX-26: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-26.5: Due to the order of the growth of the Trees being reversed, I’ve moved Yavanna’s naming of Laurelin to before the Valar praise her work, so that they are now praising both Trees at the same time.

VT-EX-27: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-28: Because the Trees have both now been named, the Valar do not request names for them.

VT-EX-29: This was moved to become part of VT-EX-24

VT-EX-30: I’ve moved Yavanna’s speech here to before the narrator’s explanation of the waxing and waning of the Trees. Since the narrator’s explanation is fuller and more detailed, this arrangement seems to me to alleviate the feeling of redundancy.

The best solution I could come up with for the problem here with the Trees’ order being reversed was to simply flip the names of the Trees (and the wells) in Yavanna’s speech. So now that Laurelin has just bloomed, she says that in twelve hours it will wane and Silpion will bloom again. Consequently, I also changed ‘fair tree’ to ‘golden tree’, ‘tree of gold’ to ‘tree of silver’, and ‘blaze forth’ (which seems an appropriate description for Laurelin but not Telperion) to ‘shine forth’.

VT-EX-30.1: In LQ and AAm, the hoarding of the light that spills from the Trees is attributed to Varda. I struggled to reconcile this with Yavanna’s speech here (which we all agreed we’d like to keep). The solution I’ve come up with may not be perfect, but I think it is reasonable: Yavanna tells the Valar that the light should be gathered, and the Trees watered from it; but then it is Varda, rather than Vána and Lóriën, who bids the Maiar do so.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-EX-34: I found this bit tricky, and I’m not sure I’m happy with what I’ve come up with. The point is that we have already told about the great wells and that Varda bade the light be stored and watered there, but we still want the statement that the Maiar drew from the wells and brought the light to other places in Valinor. I could not find a placement for this that is not at least a little awkward, but I think this works decently.

VT-EX-36b: Here we switch back to the Ainulindalë for the final part of the chapter. In the Ainulindalë, this section begins with ‘Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn.’ In the new context the ‘thus’ has lost its antecedent, so we need some editorial alteration; I therefore took Christopher Tolkien’s alteration of this sentence from QS77.

VT-EX-36.5: This is the LQ footnote telling of the making of Angband, which we agreed to use here.

VT-EX-37: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-LT-04: Details of Aulë’s dwelling from LT inserted after the Ainulindalë passage describing him.

VT-LT-05: Details of Manwë’s dwelling inserted after telling that it is on Taniquetil

VT-LT-06: In LT, the description of Lóriën’s dwelling follows the statement that Ulmo does not live in Valinor, but in the Ainulindalë, the three who gave thought to the outer lands are spoken of in sequence: Ulmo, Yavanna, Oromë; so I have separated the description of Lóriën and placed it here. I also remove the end of this section, which describes Silindrin being in Lóriën, since in our version it is near the green mound.

I’m a little uncertain about whether the old word ‘fumellar’ is valid in later Quenya, but I don’t see anything obviously wrong with it.

VT-LT-07: Here I put the description of Tulkas and his dwelling.

VT-LT-08b: I’ve deleted the passage that refers to Makar.

VT-LT-08.5: Of the minor Ainur mentioned at this point in LT, we know that Salmar still exists in the later mythology, though Amillo/Ómar and Nielqui seem to be gone. Therefore I’ve retained the statement about Salmar, but since it is now just one sentence I’ve merged it with the previous paragraph.

We could, of course, keep Ómar and Nielqui. I see that there was some discussion of Omar between Findegil and ArcusCalion, but I’m not sure if a decision was reached.

VT-LT-09: The passage about Ossë. It does seem a little awkward to me to include a description of Ossë’s dwelling among those of the Valar (of course, in LT Ossë was a Vala). But even though he was downgraded to become a Maia, he is still one of the more important Maiar, so I think it’s all right.

VT-LT-10: There is not much from LT to add here concerning Ulmo, but the one detail that he is a guest of Manwë while in Valinor is worth including.

VT-LT-11: The LT description of the forests of Valinor seems to fit here. In LT it is said that Oromë and Palurien (there his mother) planted these forests together. I debated changing this so that the forests were planted solely by Yavanna, but in the end I think it’s fine to suppose that Oromë and Yavanna worked together to plant them, even if no longer as a form of mother-son bonding.

VT-LT-11.5: The description of Oromë’s halls in Valinor seems to fit best here, after telling of his riding in Middle-earth.

VT-LT-12: Here I put the dwelling of Mandos and Vairë (who is now his wife instead of Nienna, and consequently not a lady ‘of tears’). I also alter the statement about Elves being reborn to match the later conception of re-embodiment.

VT-LT-13: With Nienna now the sister of Mandos, it seems reasonable to put the description of her dwelling immediately after his.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-30-2017 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:57 PM   #16
ArcusCalion
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Here are my comments for the draft proposed. Like the "Of the Beginning of Time" draft, I am very impressed at the overall improvement in flow and quality, and have some comments.

VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already.

VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"?

VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem?

VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother.

VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe
Quote:
.... to her bidding, and caused one of {her}[the maidens of Vána], even {Urwen}[Arie] ....
VT-LQ-04b: Nowhere in this passage does it say that the wells are near Ezellohar. If there is no actual source saying that they are, then I would recommend that the descriptions of the resting places of the cauldrons be retained in the later part of the chapter.

VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar?

VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin.

VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important.

VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above.

VT-LT-12: why remove Vê? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it.

VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph. Firstly, this:
Quote:
labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.
is entirely unlike her. She is not despair, she is pity, hope, courage. She feels the sadness of the world, but she offers means to cope. She therefore cannot be said to make tears or despairs and hopeless mourning. I would personally remove the entirety of the pasage, but if you wish to update it instead good luck. Secondly, the Halls of Nienna can hardly be said to be more wide and dark than Mandos, the Halls of which "ever widen as the ages pass." Therefore, I worry that this description might be too tied to the Hall in Mandos idea, rather than the later idea of a separate Hall "west of West." Certainly, the grim underworld descriptions of it do not fit her later character at all.
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Old 10-31-2017, 07:08 PM   #17
Aiwendil
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Originally Posted by ArcusCalion View Post
VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already.
This is an addition from the AAm* typescript.

Quote:
VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"?
Hmm, this is an interesting question. What gives me pause is that Ainulindale D probably precedes LQ. So if the new cosmology had already arisen, then perhaps we should construe "Void and Eldest Darkness" as not actually conflicting with the new cosmology? I need to think about this a bit.

Quote:
VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem?
Good point. I don't see an obvious, easy way to fix this, though I can give it some more thought.

Quote:
VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother.
I like this suggestion.

Quote:
VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe

Quote:
.... to her bidding, and caused one of {her}[the maidens of Vána], even {Urwen}[Arie] ....
Right, I was confused on this point when I made the draft, but I now see that Arie(n) became a Maia of Varda only with the new story of the Sun in MT II. Without that story, I agree that she should remain a Maia of Vana, so I think your suggestion is good.

This also brings up the small point of her name. In my view, the 'Arie' of MT II (the name derived from earlier 'Azie', itself from the primeval name 'As' or 'Asa' of the Sun) is almost a different character replacing Arien, maiden of Vana. I am half convinced that in rejecting the new story of the Sun, we should also reject 'Arie' in favour of 'Arien'. A small point, though.

Quote:
VT-LQ-04b: Nowhere in this passage does it say that the wells are near Ezellohar. If there is no actual source saying that they are, then I would recommend that the descriptions of the resting places of the cauldrons be retained in the later part of the chapter.
Good point. The wells are in fact said to be near the Green Mound in AAm, §28, but I missed that statement since I took this passage from LQ. We must stick with the story that they were near Ezellohar, though how to introduce this fact into the text is not so obvious. The wells are now mentioned before Ezellohar is, so we can't really insert the statement the first time we mention the wells. I suppose what we could do is, the first time we mention the Green Mound, add a statement that it is near the wells, something like:

Quote:
VT-EX-04.4 And before its western gate, <Editorial addition based on AAm near Cululin and Silindirin,> there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.
Your comment also made me realize that I missed taking up the emendations to AAm here whereby the name 'Ezellohar' was introduced. It should be, then:

Quote:
VT-EX-04.4 And before its western gate, <Editorial addition based on AAm near Cululin and Silindirin,> there was a green mound, <AAm emendation Ezellohar,> and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

VT-EX-04.5 Then Yavanna and Nienna came to {that Green Mound}[Ezellohar]; and Yavanna hallowed it, . . .

Quote:
VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar?
I'm not completely sure - this is from the Ainulindale D, which I believe post-dates the change of Noldorin to Sindarin (which arose in the writing of the appendices to LotR). And it is true that in Middle-earth (at least in the 3rd age) the Noldor - like Gildor - do call her that (since they mainly speak Sindarin). On the other hand, Christopher Tolkien saw fit to change 'whom the Noldor name' to 'who in the Sindarin tongue is named'. So perhaps we should follow his lead there.

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VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin.
As noted, I think they do need to be near Ezellohar because of AAm.

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VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important.
I think you're right. We can make this:

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VT-LT-08c Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked {as is Makar}, albeit there are none of Valar or Úvanimor (who are monsters, giants, and ogres) that do not fear the sinews of his arm and the buffet of his iron-clad fist, when he has cause for wrath.
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VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above.
As noted, it needs to be near Ezellohar.

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VT-LT-12: why remove Vê? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it.
I think that 'Mandos' clearly replaced 'Ve' as the name of the hall - note that in LT, Mandos is the region, while Ve is specifically the hall. Add to this that Ve is a very old name with no plausible etymology, never mentioned after the Lost Tales, and I think we are best dropping it.

Quote:
VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph.
Yes, I hadn't given this much thought, but I think you are completely right about Nienna. I think we should remove the whole paragraph.

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Old 11-01-2017, 12:51 PM   #18
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I guess that's everything I saw. I agree with your comments.

On a side note, I see no reason not to include Omar and Nieliqui, since they do not play large narrative roles, and their existence was never denied by Tolkien.

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Old 11-01-2017, 05:39 PM   #19
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VT-LQ-01.5: I don’t think that this is a contradiction. Ekkaia is in the new and in the old concept like to what we would call space. And its boundary is the Walls of the World beyond which is the Void.

VT-EX-03.1: We use Valinor already in the heading of the chapter. But still I see reason to replace it here. In the first place we could used “the mountains they raised” and in the second “Aman”.

VT-LT-03.5: I like ArcusCalion’s suggestion as well.

VT-EX-30.1: Hmm, even so we reject the story of the new and holy light, I am not sure that we should not keep the possibility for that story open. Meaning that we will not include it, but as well should not deny it, if not necessary. Therefore I would not specify if Árië/Ariën is a maiden of Vána or Varda. What about just naming her “a maiden of the Maiar”? To the name I am open. For me it doesn’t matter. Both seem to be near variants and Ariën has for me the more feminine feel.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I am not sure that what is said about the wells – that they are near the Ezellohar – does contradict what is said about the places of Kululin and Silindrin in LT? Why should not the gardens of Lóriën and Vána stretch along to have areas near the appropriate trees in which the “wells” where places – or to put it in the real sequence: when Aulë needed light, it was for the building of Valimar, therefore the wells were placed near to the place where Valimar was build. When then the gardens of Lóriën and Vána were planted, both liked to include the appropriate well into their garden and extended the gardens accordingly.

VT-EX-04.4 & VT-EX-04.5: Agreed.

Following VT-LQ-05: Agreed. I think we should call that change VT-EX-38.

VT-LT-08c: Agreed.

VT-LT-12 & VT-LT-13: Aiwendil, if you feel not safe with “Vê”, I agree to remove it. The same is true then for “Fui” as the name of the other hall, but I would like to hold that description as I did in my draft:
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and go forth to laugh and sing again.>
VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}his black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>
Quote:
[Wickedness; Artist; no. 32; p. 37]
Wickedness
Omar and Nieliqui: I am out of that discussion, because I think it is most of all linguistic. If the names are still possible we can include them, if not we should not try to update them.

I had only time to follow the discussion, and not to analyse all the changes. So their might come farther comments. Sorry for that.

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Old 11-02-2017, 12:18 PM   #20
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VT-LQ-01.5: Ekkaia is in no way meant to be equivalent to "space." It is akin more to the ancient Greek and Indian mythological idea of the Sea that encircles the world, or the Biblical waters that were beyond the sky that God used to make the flood. In the earliest concept, there was no "space" as it was a simple flat earth with the stars and Sun and Moon being in "Ilmen" the narrow region of the atmosphere where the luminaries are said to be. However, in the new concept, Ea is introduced as true "space" beyond Arda, which is merely our world / solar system. Thus, the placement of the Walls of the World comes into question. In the old conception, their function was to separate Creation from Uncreation, and to bind the Valar and Maiar to Arda. however, with the introduction of Ea, the boundary between Creation and Uncreation is the place between Ea and the Void, and thus it seems to me that the Walls would be there. However, for this passage, the main point is that, regardless of the placement of the walls, there must be some mention of Ea and its vast spaces, as the passage as-is merely lays out the old cosmology, where it goes Vaiya(Ekkaia) -> Walls of the World -> The Void / Eldest Darkness. We must either replace the Void section with Ea, or insert and additional Ea reference. I suppose we do actually have to determine where the walls of the world are meant to be in the new conception as well.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I agree with Fin here. The Gardens of Lorien are even said to wind "nigh to the feet of Silpion." They can thus be by Ezellohar and in the Gardens of Lorien and Vana at the same time.

VT-LT-13: I agree with Fin here, I think the judgement of Men is worth including, as the description used is of the Halls of Mandos, removing Fui would allow for us to use it.
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:58 PM   #21
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VT-EX-01b: Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?

VT-EX-01b & VT-LQ-01.5:
- Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?
- Are not “…;for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of {the} Night. “ and “But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.” redundant?
- I think, that it is no question that the “Walls of the World” separate Creation from Uncreation as you put it in all cosmologies. But Eä signifies all the Creation. So it can not be said that beyond Ekkaia is Eä, because Eä includes Ekkaia and the rest of Arda (if Ekkaia can still be called a part of Arda). Howsoever we do not have to explain the cosmology, we “just” have too make the sentence in question fit to what we know for sure about the cosmology we work with. But anyhow that sentence most not be an exact listing of all things between one point and the other and that the Walls of the World were beyond Ekkaia is no question.
So I think we should change all this probably in this way:
Quote:
VT-EX-01c <AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the {Gods}[Valar] upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and they had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the <AAm* ancient> world; for its{ west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the} east-shores{ of Aman} are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West. VT-EX-02 <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> VT-LQ-01.5 <LQ But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.>
VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, …
VT-EX-03b: posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place.
I am sorry, but that place doesn’t feel right to me. May be we should move it even more. What about:
Quote:
VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith> <AAm upon the shores of the Sea {they raised} the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. {And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height which was called Taniquetil,}> VT-EX-03.01<LT and the world rumbled in the gloom and {Melko}[Melkor] heard the noises of their labour.> VT-EX-03.02<LT Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured {for seven ages} at Manwë’s bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil} the greatest mountain,> VT-EX-03.03<AAm upon whose summit Manwë set his throne before the doors of the domed halls of Varda{.},> VT-LQ-02.5 <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and Elerrína Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.>
VT-EX-03.1: We can as well use here “Mountains of Aman” as in the paragraph before and “towered mightily between their land and the world the Valar drew breath”

VT-LT-06: If we replace “Murmuran” by “Lórien” then we should replace at the beginning of the sentence “Lórien” by “Irmo”, otherwise sentence reads awkward. But why do we remove “Murmuran”?
By the way: we used “Lóriën” up to now, at least for the place in Valinor and the Valar.
The reinsertion of Silindirin I would do in this way:
Quote:
… them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost}[Within] of those pleasances was set {within}[amidmaost] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep vat {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered never to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, …
I exchanged “amidmost” and “within” because Silindirin can no longer be “amidmost” of Lóriën.

VT-LT-11: I agree that we should not call Oromë any longer Yavanna’s son, but I think we can edit this in a lighter way:
Quote:
VT-LT-11b{And}[Now] Oromë tamer of beasts <LT {Now Oromë} had a vast domain and it was beloved by him, and no less by {Palúrien}[Yavanna]{ his mother}. Behold, the groves of trees they planted upon the plain of Valinor and even upon the foothills of the mountains have no compare on Earth. …
VT-LT-11.5: Here we should add Culullin back in:
Quote:
… Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that cauldron, gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13 was none ever of that splendour spilled from the vat of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Árië] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>
Quote:
[The Tree of Amalion; Artist; no. 62; p. 64]
The Tree of Amalion
VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes …
VT-LT-13b: I am inclined to move the following section from Valaquenta about Nienna to the end of the actual chapter:
Quote:
Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
I think that the passage about Nienna in the Valaquenta can stand without this it would read then:
Quote:
… and often the Valar come themselves to Lóriën and there find repose and easing of the burden of Arda.
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Vala-04.3{Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.}
Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, …
In Of Valinor and the two Trees I would add it thus:
Quote:
VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that {Vefantur}[Námo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife and his sister Nienna of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh {Arvalin}[Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Námo]{, and he called that hall with his own name Vê}. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of Silpion: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.{
}There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again {be born into their children}[take body], and go forth to laugh and sing again.>
VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>
Quote:
[Wickedness; Artist; no. 32; p. 37]
Wickedness
VT-EX-39 <Ainu {Her}Nienna’s halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.>
I think that now I have catched all points I see in this chapter.

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Old 11-02-2017, 07:18 PM   #22
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Just a few thoughts for now - more will follow.

VT-LQ-01.5: The cosmology is a thorny problem. I tend to think that the project of explicitly defining the cosmology in our version (which is to say, the cosmology as envisioned in the early 1950s) is quite hopeless. It's a shame that there is no later version of the Ambarkanta; without one, I don't think we can build up a completely clear and coherent picture.

In AAm, Christopher Tolkien notes the following statements with cosmological implications:

Quote:
§1 Ëa is 'the World that is'; the Valar are 'the Powers of Ëa'.
§11 After ages of labour 'in the great halls of Ëa the Valar descended into Arda in the beginning of its being'.
§13 Tulkas came to Arda 'out of distant regions of Ëa'.
§17 Melkor gathered spirits 'out of the voids of Ea.'; and he 'drew near again unto Arda, and looked down upon it'.
§18 The Valar did not perceive the dark shadow 'cast from afar by Melkor'.
§19 Melkor 'passed over the borders of Ëa' > 'passed over the Walls of the Night upon the borders of Arda' > 'passed over the Walls of the Night' (note 19).
§23 The Outer Sea 'encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night'.
It seems then to me that the Walls of Night (or Walls of the World) enclose Arda, not Ea. §23 would suggest that we have Arda - Outer Sea - Walls of Night - other parts of Ea.

Christopher Tolkien's further discussion of the cosmology here has great bearing on our issue, especially:

Quote:
Amid all the ambiguities (most especially, in the use of the word 'World'), the testimony seems to be that in these texts the Ambarkanta world-image survived at least in the conception of the Outer Sea extending to the Walls of the World, now called the Walls of the Night - though the Walls have come to be differently conceived (see also p. 135, §168). Now in the revision of 'The Silmarillion' made in 1951 the phrase in QS §12 (V.209) 'the Walls of the World fence out the Void and the Eldest Dark' - a phrase in perfect agreement of course with the Ambarkanta – was retained (p. 154). This is a central difficulty in relation to the Ainulindalë, where it is made as plain as could be wished that Ëa came into being in the Void, it was globed amid the Void (§§11, 20, and see pp. 37-8); how then can the Walls of Arda 'fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness'?
A possible explanation, of a sort, may be hinted at in the words cited above from AAm §17: Melkor gathered spirits out of the voids of Ëa. It may be that, although AAm is not far distant in time from the last version (D) of the Ainulindalë, my father's conception did not in fact now accord entirely with what he had written there; that (as I suggested, p. 39) he was now thinking of Arda as being 'set within an indefinite vastness in which all "Creation" is comprehended', rather than of a bounded Ëa itself set 'amid the Void'. Then, beyond the Walls of the Night, the bounds of Arda, stretch 'the voids of Ëa'. But this suggestion does not, of course, clear up all the problems, ambiguities, and apparent contradictions in the cosmology of the later period, which have been discussed earlier.
So we have what may be shifting cosmological ideas between the various texts of this phase - but it is difficult, if not impossible, to tell what exactly those shifts are, since we have only isolated clues in the texts. However, it seems to me quite plausible that the central problem is merely one of nomenclature: 'void' could be used in two senses. There is the Void in the sense of that beyond Ea, the place or thing within which Ea is globed; and then there is the Void of Ea, the vast empty space in which Arda and the innumerable stars are set.

All this is to say that I don't necessarily see a contradiction between the LQ's "Void and Eldest Darkness" and the cosmology of the Ainulindale and AAm. Now, whether we might want to err on the side of caution and eliminate a possible contradiction is an open question, and one on which I haven't quite decided where I stand.

In any case, I do agree with Findegil that we have a redundancy here, and I also agree that we can include the part of a sentence that I skipped. So with the caveat that we may still want to think about changing "Void and Eldest Darkness", I agree with Findegil's suggestion here.

VT-EX-03b: I like Findegil's proposal.

VT-EX-03.1: I like using "Mountains of Aman" here. I'm just the tiniest bit uncertain about replacing the other "Valinor" here with "Aman" ("they towered mightily between Valinor and the world"), since the mountains are after all part of Aman. But this is only a slight imprecision, and maybe it doesn't matter.
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:52 PM   #23
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This first paragraph by Fin looks good. I think that the walls of the world, as shown by Aiwendil, are actually enclosing Arda. Therefore, the issue lies in the confusion of the Void with the Spaces of Ea, and I think now that such a distinction is less material her than needs to be. We could change it, or eliminate it though, in an effort to formalize a cosmological system.

For your Silindirin addition Fin, "Amidmost of" should be changed to "Within." I.E. the "of" should be removed too. The "within" should also be replaced by "amid," not "amidmost." I also agree about adding in Murmuran, but then we must have a sentence that calls the Gardens Lorien.

For the Nienna bit I actually decided to do it differently.

Quote:
VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, [pity and endurance in hope]. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}[west of West], and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>

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Old 11-03-2017, 06:06 AM   #24
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VT-EX-30.1: I suppose I'm fine with leaving Arie(n)'s allegiance unstated. I think I prefer 'Arien' over 'Arie' for the etymological reason I mentioned.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I'm not so sure about this. It's true that we don't have any definite statement that the gardens of Lorien and Vana do not border Ezellohar. But my impression of Valinor has always been one of a much larger region than that would suggest. Still, I suppose one could quibble about what exactly 'near to Ezellohar' means. I had pictured them being within sight of Ezellohar, but perhaps 'near' could mean miles away.

In any case, if we do add these descriptions back in, I think we need to eliminate the statements that the pools are disturbed only when it is time to 'water' the Trees, since AAm has the Maiar drawing from them to bring light to frith and field throughout Valinor.

VT-LT-06: I had been assuming that 'Lorien' replaced 'Murmuran' as the name of Irmo's dwelling. However, 'Murmuran' seems to refer to his house, while 'Lorien' refers to his lands/gardens as a whole. So I suppose 'Murmuran' could stay unless we reject it on linguistic grounds.

VT-LT-11: I think Findegil's suggestion is good.

VT-LT-13: I wonder whether we're justified in taking what was Nienna's hall and giving it to Mandos as well. Logically, what should come here would be a description of Vaire's hall, since the original is describing the neighbouring dwellings of Mandos and his wife. But the description is obviously unsuited to Vaire. Nor does it make much sense to retain it for Nienna.

I do seem to vaguely recall a statement somewhere in the post-LotR writings that Mandos contained separate halls for Elves and Men. Can either of you remind me where that is found? If that's indeed the case, then perhaps we do have justificiation for keeping the description of Fui's hall, even though Fui is no longer there.

Nonetheless, I do still wonder whether the rather 'primitive' description of the hall, with a ceiling of bat-wings (!) is still appropriate in the context of the later Legendarium. Actually, I am still for the same reason somewhat uneasy about most of the LT additions to this chapter.

Relatedly, it feels a little off to me that the vivid description of Mandos's halls here make no mention of the only two facts told of them in the Valaquenta: that they widen as the ages pass and that their walls are covered with Vaire's tapestries.

Omar and Nieliqui: I see no problems with these names phonologically, nor with Omar's other name, Amillo. I do wonder, though, whether Nieliqui can still be a "little maiden" if she is no longer the daughter of Orome and Vana.

VT-EX-39/VT-LT-14: I'm not sure I see a clear motivation for moving the passage from the Valaquenta to here. There are, after all, other bits of description of the Valar's dwellings in the Valaquenta, and I don't think it's a problem if the descriptions here are not comprehensive.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:23 PM   #25
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VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: We actually have a definite statement that the gardens of Lorien do border Ezellohar:
Quote:
It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously about, winding nigh to the feet of Silpion whose shining lit them strangely.
"nigh to the feet of Silpion" means near Ezellohar. If Lorien is near Ezellohar, then I see no reason that we cannot make the logical leap that Vana's Bower is as well.

As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."

VT-LT-06: I would do the Lorien bit like this:
Quote:
VT-LT-06 <LT {Lóriën too} [Irmo] dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens[, which he called Lóriën,] wandered marvelously .....
This way we can keep the sense of it. If we want we can change Lorien -> Irmo for the rest of the chapter when referring to the person, but I think we do not need to. In the Valaquenta it is already said that he is most often referred to by the name of his dwelling, so it is a simple in-universe fact.

VT-LT-13: The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"
Quote:
Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves; and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whether they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.
All the same, I do agree with the idea that the "bat's wings" is a bit much... But if we are to keep all the descriptions (which I think we should) then we must keep this as well. Imagine he means carved bats, or something else more poetic. The details about them in the Valaquenta are indeed lacking here. We could repeat them again, or simply leave them out. Either way I think is fine. The fact that they widen and are covered with tapestries is already told to the reader in the Valaquenta, so the exclusion of these facts here does not render the previous description invalid, it simply adds the new elements to it.

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I agree with Aiwendil that we do not need to take this out of the Valaquenta. However, I would like an opinion on the edit I did to the Lost Tales paragraph by melding some wording from the Valaquenta.

VT-EX-30.1: I respectfully see no reason to leave her allegiance unknown when it is stated in the source document. If we are rejecting the story of the light, we are to use AAm and LQ as the sources for this. This would put Arien in the role of Vana's servant. However, this would not preclude the Light of Varda being given to her, as she still steers the Sun. On the subject of her name, I am inclined to go to Arien myself, since it makes more linguistic sense, while Arie / Azie seems more like Tolkien trying to make a new name in the Valarin.
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Old 11-03-2017, 04:32 PM   #26
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VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: Yeah, I suppose it is plausible for them to be within the gardens of Vana and Lorien and still near Ezellohar. It still feels a little - I don't know, too convenient, perhaps. But that's just a feeling, not an argument.

Quote:
As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."
That would probably work.

VT-LT-06: Since we've already told in the Valaquenta that his right name is Irmo but that he is called Lorien after his gardens, I don't think we need to repeat it here. So I'd opt rather for:

Quote:
VT-LT-06 <LT Lóriën {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously .....
VT-LT-13:
Quote:
The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"
Ah, that's right; thanks. My concern now is that the statement in "Of Men" expresses this proposition with uncertainty ("some say . . .") - therefore I hesitate very much as to whether we can make a certain statement. So I'm still tempted to delete the statement about the fate of men here. We could perhaps instead add doubt to this passage as well, something like:

Quote:
VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}[his] black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither[, some say,] came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>
VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I don't know, I think we'd be taking a great liberty by changing the clouds of despair to clouds of hope. Not least because a "cloud of despair" is a common metaphor and a "cloud of hope" isn't.

VT-EX-30.1: My preference would also be to keep her explicitly a Maia of Vana, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:10 PM   #27
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VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: "seldom" does solve the issue for Silindirin:
Quote:
... and {Lórien}[Lóriën] used them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost of}[Within] those pleasances was set {within}[amid] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep {vat}[well] {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered {never}[seldom] to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, ...
But not for Culullin. What about:
Quote:
... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13b was {none}[not much] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>
VT-LT-06: I agree to Aiwendils last suggestion.

VT-LT-13: Since Beren was meet by Lúthien in Mandos, it can not be the coming of Men to Mandos that is in question but the hall (in LT named Fui). I don't see that the hall described fits the later Nienna's dwelling place. So what about this:
Quote:
VT-LT-13c<LT{The}And some said that there was another hall {that she loved best was}, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>
VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: Okay, we leave the hall of Nienna in the Valaquenta. But I would as ArcusCalion like to have a statement about Nienna here, so I agree to Aiwendil that clouds of pity and endurance in hope does not work. What about:
Quote:
VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless} mourning, sorrows and {blind} grief, [but those who hearken to Nienna learn pity, and endurance in hope].
VT-EX-30.1: Okay, if both of you feel that Ariën should be a maiden of Vána then she will be in our version. And by the way, Ariën will be here name.

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Old 11-04-2017, 11:14 AM   #28
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VT-LT-11.7: How about:

Quote:
... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Cululin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet was {none}[little] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>
VT-LT-13: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

VT-LT-14: I can certainly agree to Nienna still distilling tears, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself about the clouds, and it seems very awkward to me to repeat a phrase directly from the Valaquenta here. I'm not sure I have a solution, though, without dropping Nienna from the descriptions here.
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Old 11-04-2017, 11:44 AM   #29
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Agreed to everything so far, and Aiwendil's suggestion for the Cululin edit looks good.

VT-LT-14: I see no real issue with repeating from the Valaquenta, and I think that something must be said about her in this list, as she is one of the most important ones. As it is, the only ones who have nothing said here about their dwellings are Vaire and Este, the two least important of the Valar. Nienna is much more important, and I think to leave her out would be worse than repeating something small. I might even do more:
Quote:
VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, <Vala but those who hearken to Niënna learn pity and endurance in hope>. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}<Vala west of West, upon the borders of the world>, and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>

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Old 11-04-2017, 12:44 PM   #30
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I actually have another point I just saw. In the mater of elvish reincarnation, this LT passage about the fate of Men is actually surprisingly applicable:
Quote:
Few are they and happy indeed for whom at a season doth Nornore the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Valmar, dwelling in the houses of the Gods until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of Arvalin, and music and fair light is theirs, and joy.
If we edit it like so:
Quote:
{Few are they and happy}Happy indeed are they for whom at a season doth {Nornore}[Eönwë] the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Val[i]mar, dwelling in the {houses}[land] of the {Gods}[Valar] until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of {Arvalin}[Araman], and music and fair light is theirs, and joy.
This is a pretty accurate encapsulation of elvish reincarnation, with the addition that Eonwe brings them back into life. Should we include it here, or at all?
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Old 11-04-2017, 05:41 PM   #31
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VT-LT-11.7: Agreed.

VT-LT-14: It seems our opinions are fare sundered. Let's sort the discussion:
1. Mentioning Nienna at this point: We all agree that it would be good to mention her, but the only thing we agreed upon so fare are the destilling of tears.

2. The clouds of grief: ArcusCalion and I find this acceptable, but Aiwendil has a problem with this.

3. The hall in LT called Fui: Aiwendil and I agree that this should in our version be a description the special hall in Mandos in which Námo gathers the fëa of Men. But ArcusCalion would like to use the description for the dwelling of Nienna.

4. Snipets of Valaquenta used here again or moved to here: Aiwendil is complete against it, ArcusCalion would repeat the passages in question, and I would move them. In the end Aiwendil's point of view is the safest and has to rule. I search the older version of the former chapter "Of the Valar": But what is in there is either not useable or virtually the same as in the Valaquenta.

I have no solution ready for these points, but it might be helpful to sort them.

LT passage about the fate of Men: This is for sure a no go. On the one hand I don't think the passages realy fit the rehousing of Elves, since we are told that Manwe was the one to give the Elves the new boddy and it would be a case changing the sense of Tolkiens text greatly with out changing the words over much - for sure that is not wanted.

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Old 11-05-2017, 11:42 AM   #32
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I would say that Fui is not a requirement for me. I do not feel too strongly about dropping it. As for the description, I certainly do not want to use it for Nienna, I removed that part in my suggestion. I would say that we cannot move the Valaquenta passages without real good reason, which we do not have. I think small repetition is harmless and the best solution to the issue.

As for the Fate of Men passage you are right, I just figured I'd throw it out there.

Another side note, I think the chapter should end on a more final note than the description of Nienna's hall, so perhaps we could take up this LT sentence as a way to close out the chapter:
Quote:
VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}was Valinor {now} built, and there {is}was great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those} quarrelsome spirits {dwell}dwelt not {much} among them, and {Melko comes}Melkor came not nigh.>

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Old 11-06-2017, 11:50 AM   #33
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I have to review quietly all the text but lets go start with a little thing.
In VT-LT-03.5, shouldn´t be deleted the allusions to spells and magic?
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:30 PM   #34
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This actually brings up an issue we have not discussed with Aiwendil, and I meant to comment on, but had forgotten. Fin and I, in our editing, have been replacing the word "magic," since Tolkien expressed distaste for the word, and equated it with an evil power. In Lord of the Rings, Galadriel expresses no knowledge of what is meant by magic when Sam asks her, and so I think that we should avoid the use of the word, at least whenever it does not refer to the work of Morgoth. Spells, however, we have agreed to keep, as also enchantments, since spells are referenced in LotR by Gandalf in a positive way, and "enchantments" has a good connotation. Wherever "magic" appears, I replace it, usually with something like "power." That is what I used in the Valimar segment, but in the Aule's Hall description, I used "cunning." I cannot remember any of the others off the top of my head, but they are all fairly straightforward.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:33 PM   #35
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A more general question: Is it “Nienna” or “Niënna” that we use? And in the same direction is it “Lórien” or “Lóriën”?

I will give VT-LT-14 another go:
Quote:
VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that {Vefantur}[Námo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife and his sister Nienna of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh {Arvalin}[Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns … hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>
Quote:
[Wickedness; Artist; no. 32; p. 37]
Wickedness
VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears>. VT-LT-15 <Q30 She dwells alone. Pity is in her heart, and mourning and weeping come to her; shadow is her realm and her throne hidden. For her halls are west of West, nigh to the borders of the World and the Darkness>[u].[/b]
That is near to the passage we used in the Valaquenta but not exactly the same:
Quote:
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Vala-04.3 Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
VT-LT-04: We have in that addition from LT an occurrence of Outer Lands. But the change to Middle-earth is not that easy. The passage made it in that wording into Sil77. I suggest:
Quote:
But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the {Outer }Lands[ of Middle-earth]. For his throne was set ...
magic: I have looked that up more generally, and if we want to eliminate the word when ever the Valarrian or Elvish 'magic' is meant, we will get much more problematic cases in the poems. But I am willing to go that way.

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Old 11-06-2017, 03:11 PM   #36
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I use Niënna and Lóriën, as I thought those were the latest versions of the names? Similarly to Ariën.

VT-LT-14: Omg this is absolutely perfect! I approve of this 100%. Aiwendil,thoughts?

This OuterLands-> Lands of Middle-earth looks good, good catch!

I have actually gone through it and replaced "magic" in all occurrences in my copies of the drafts. I could go through again and see what I did at each occurrence. It was not too difficult to do.

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Old 11-06-2017, 05:29 PM   #37
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VT-LT-14, 15: Findegil's last suggestion works for me.

VT-LT-04: I don't think changing "Outer Lands" is necessary in this instance. Here, it refers to the lands outside Valinor, including Middle-earth. The problematic instance was one where it was used to mean the lands beyond Middle-earth, including Valinor.

Magic: I don't think I'm in favour of replacing every instance of good 'magic'. The closest analogue is our elimination of 'gods', but there is a good deal more precedent for Tolkien removing that word.

On the diacritics: A quick investigation seems to show that Tolkien's latest usage was to include the trema in Niënna and Lóriën. By analogy, I think we are safe using Ariën.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:03 PM   #38
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Magic: When I looked up the occurrences in all our text, I could discern a clear trend that the older the basis text is the more often the word “magic” is used (the same is true for “Gods” as well). This together with the passage in LotR where Galadriel connected the word with the deceits of the enemy makes me at least cautious about a massive usage.

VT-LT-16: I like the idea of a closing sentence to the chapter, but I have some reservation about the quarrelsome spirits not dwelling among them. The reference was to Makar and Meassa. But these “Melkor party” is removed from our version. So I would edit the sentence differently:
Quote:
VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}was Valinor {now }built, and there {is}was great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those quarrelsome spirits dwell not much among them, and Melko}[Melkor] {comes}came not nigh.>
On the diacritics: Okay I will take up general changes of {Nienna}[Niënna]; {Fui}[Niënna] and {Lorien}[Lóriën]; {Lórien}[Lóriën]; the spelling “Loriën” is not found in our text so fare.

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Old 11-07-2017, 12:34 PM   #39
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That looks fine to me
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:47 PM   #40
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In this chapter I can not opine very much save in minor points. My text structure differs so much of this. But the information is the same.

Perhaps Arvalin is changed to Avathar many times, where Avathar is the south, for example in Mandos dwelings ?(maybe I'm oxidized geographically).

Now
Aiwendil said
VT-LT-04: I don't think changing "Outer Lands" is necessary in this instance. Here, it refers to the lands outside Valinor, including Middle-earth. The problematic instance was one where it was used to mean the lands beyond Middle-earth, including Valinor.

I agree with this.

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