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Old 08-29-2017, 03:39 PM   #1
Findegil
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3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles

This is the first draft of the chapter 3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles.

Our basis text is that of QS77 given on page 16-17. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
DE-SC-xx for Dwarves and Ents, Script, to document the backward development of the basic text, to the source text as given in HoME 11. I normally will not comment on this. The reasons for these changes should be easily found in HoME 11; part 2; chapter 13 and part 3; chapter IV

DE-EX-xx for Dwarves and Ents, Expansions

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

The title of the chapter might be explained best here: It is combination as is the chapter itself. The first part is documented as title of the replacement for the first part of the LQ 1 chapter 10, the second part is taken from the title given by Christhoper Tolkien to a appropriate chapter in HoME 11 documenting the text of Anaxartaron Onyalie.
Quote:
3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
DE-SC-01<[b]Concerning the Dwarves; HoME 11[B] Of Aulë and the Dwarves
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
The Naugrim are not of the Elf-kind, ... that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar. DE-SC-02 <QS77 And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, ... But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he DE-EX-01{wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.
Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë's work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Ilúvatar spoke to him;}<Concerning the Dwarves; passage (b) {He} wrought in secret in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth. There he made first one Dwarf, the eldest of all, and after he made six others, the fathers of their race; and then he began to make others again, like to them but of female kind to be their mates. But he wearied, and when he DE-EX-02{[}had{]} made six more he rested, and he returned to the seven fathers and he looked at them, and they looked at him, and whatever motion was in his thought that motion they performed. And Aulë was not pleased, but he began to teach them the language that he had designed for them, hoping thus to instruct them.
But Ilúvatar knew all that was done, and in the very hour that the Eldest Dwarf first spoke with tongue, Ilúvatar spoke to Aulë;> and Aulë heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no moreDE-EX-03<Letters; no. 212 {He had only one life, his own derived from the One}, and {could}thou can at most only distribute it>; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. DE-EX-04<Letters; no. 212 Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.> Is that thy desire?'
Then Aulë answered: ... Do with them what thou wilt. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'
Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; ... and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. DE-EX-05<Letters; no. 212 And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Iluvatar. >And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'DE-EX-06<Letters; no. 212 Do you wonder at this? >Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. ... 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'
But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ... the children of my choice.'
DE-EX-07{Then Aulë took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places; and he returned to Valinor, and waited while the long years lengthened.} <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>
Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. DE-EX-08<HoME 11; substitution to QS $5. The Naugrim were ever, ... wherefore their race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling.
>DE-EX-09<Letters; no. 212 This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves{; but the Elves report that Iluvatar said thus also: ... Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Iluvatar}. And of the fate that Iluvatar has set upon the children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing{, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it}. >Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. DE-EX-10<HoME 12; Last Writings The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers {(such as Durin) }should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body,[Footnote to the text: The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men. (Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished.)] at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again{.}[Footnote to the text: What effect would this have on the succession? Probably this 'return' would only occur when by some chance or other the reigning king had no son. The Dwarves were very unprolific and this no doubt happened fairly often.DE-EX-11<HoME 12; Last Writings {... the}The reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings {- e.g. especially Durin - }is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King {Durin (say) }to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.]>{They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin} and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Dúrin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.>DE-EX-12<HoME 12; Last Writings Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and yet naturally as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive years of life in one person.[Footnote to the text: Yet it is said that their memories were clearer and fuller of the far-off days.]
How this could come to pass the Elves did not know; nor would the Dwarves tell them much more of the matter.[Footnote to the text: That the Elves ever came to know so much (though only at a time when the vigour of both their races was declining) is thought to be due to the strange and unique friendship which arose between Gimli and Legolas. Indeed most of the references to Dwarvish history in Elvish records are marked with 'so said Legolas'.]>DE-SC-03 <HoME 11
Anaxartaron Onyalie
Of the Ents and the Eagles
><QS77 Now when Aulë laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work hidden from the other Valar; ... Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity.'
But Aulë answered: ... without respect or without gratitude.'
'Not unless Melkor darken their hearts,' said Yavanna. And she was not appeased, but grieved in heart, fearing what might be done upon Middle-earth in days to come. Therefore she went before Manwë, and she did not DE-SC-04 {betray}<HoME 11 bewray> the counsel of Aulë, but she said: 'King of Arda, is it true, as Aulë hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?'
'It is true,' ... the teaching of Aulë?'
Then Yavanna was silent ... be free from the dominion of others?'
'If thou hadst thy will ... thou hold dearest?'
'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar DE-SC-05 <HoME 11 [Footnote: animals, all living things that move]> can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. ... and punish those that wrong them!'
'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.
'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain DE-SC-06 <HoME 12 and the glitter of the Sun>.'
Then Manwë sat silent, ... and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of DE-SC-07{Ilúvatar}<Eru>; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.
Then Manwë awoke, ... and their just anger shall be feared. DE-SC-08 {For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.}’ But dost thou not now remember, ... the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'
Then Yavanna was glad, ... that the Eagles of the King may house therein!'
But Manwë rose also, ... as from the paths of the winds.
'Nay,' he said, ... But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.'
Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, ... whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'
'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.
DE-EX-01: Here I replaced a part of the text with an earlier passage. I know that this is risky, but I can not see why it should be better not mention the dwarf women here.
DE-EX-02: This was an expansion for grammatical reason done by Christopher Tolkien, which we should follow.
DE-EX-03: The draft for the Letter was contemporary to the text, but it adds some information missing from the text. In this case the possibility to ‘distribute once being’, which corresponds nicely to the ‘dispersion’ of Melkor.
DE-EX-04: I toke this up because it exemplifies that speaking does not mean that being has a ‘soul’.
DE-EX-05: Where if not here are we ever to hear the laughter of Eru?
DE-EX-06: This passage goes with the laughter I think.
DE-EX-07: Both the information about Durin being alone and of the elvish guess when the Dwarves awoke are want, from my point of view.
DE-EX-08: The info about the beards should not be lost.
DE-EX-09: I think that is a good way to introduce the false believe of the Elves and the Dwarvish believe of Mahal taking care of them.
DE-EX-10: Here I replaced a part of the text with a more sophisticated and probably later text.
DE-EX-11: To put this younger much short version into this footnote seems to be the best way to include the info it contains.
DE-EX-12: Both the info that the reanimated Kings did posses memories of their former lives and that all this info a marvel to the Elves and only was gained by the friendship of Legolas with Gimli I desire to give in our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I had to do the chapter all over again, since when I tried to find the sources of my original draft, I found other passages to be added. What as well came up was the fact that for the chapter 20 Of the Naugrim and the Edain not enough about the Naugrim is left. Some passages might be used, but I think we will place them rather in chapter 17 Of BEleriand and it's Realms.

P.P.S.: Please do not expact that I follow up with the next drafts in the same frequency. I put up chapter 1, 2 and 3 get the bridge to the already posted draft of chapter 4.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:25 PM   #2
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Silmaril Thoughts

I loved all your additions, and the Legolas thing adds a very nice Bilbo-ish dimension to everything. I had only a few comments.

DE-EX-10: I had a question.
Quote:
DE-EX-10<HoME 12; Last Writings The Dwarves add that at that time Aulë gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers {(such as Durin) }should,
Why is (such as Durin) removed? also in DE-EX-11.

DE-EX-11: There is a minor grammatical issue that arises out of combining different sources.
Quote:
Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again [.....] and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.
The italicized words should be changed to "his" and "name" respectively.

That was it!
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:20 PM   #3
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I actually noticed one more issue. If much of this lore is said to come from Legolas, then how can these be "the words of Pengolodh." I would say the Pengolodh subheading should be removed, since the Legolas bit is later, but that is a matter of debate.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:56 PM   #4
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DE-EX-10 and DE-EX-11: I had some doubts about the naming of Durin here, but I am open to retake the mentionings of Durin. I would only remove the last:
Quote:
... but of the preservation of the body of a former King {Durin (say) }to which at intervals his spirit would return. ...
Here I think we should be more general.

DE-EX-11: gramatical issue: Agreed.

The Legolas/Pengolod issue: Our text is an amalgament of diffrent texts, so I wouldn't say it is a problem.

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Old 08-30-2017, 03:01 PM   #5
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awesome, looks good!
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:12 PM   #6
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I have forgotten to add one important bit from Of Dwarves and Men:
Quote:
<Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>
DE-EX-07.2<Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams; and that of the ancestor of the Longbeards,[Footnote to the text: He alone had no companions. DE-EX-07.3{; cf. 'he slept alone' (III.352). [The reference is to the beginning of Appendix A, III. The passage in the text is difficult to interpret. My father refers here to four places of awakening of the Seven Ancestors of the Dwarves: those of 'the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams', 'the ancestor of the Longbeards', 'the Ironfists and Stiffbeards', and 'the Blacklocks and Stonefoots'. (None of these names of the other six kindreds of the Dwarves has ever been given before. Since the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams awoke in the Ered Lindon, these kindreds must be presumed to be the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.) It seems that he was here referring to Durin's having 'slept alone' in contrast to the other kindreds, whose Fathers were laid to sleep in pairs. If this is so, it is a different conception from that cited in XI.213, where Iluvatar 'commanded Aule to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Durin the eldest who had none.' On the subject of the 'mates' of the Fathers of the Dwarves see XI.211-13. - In the margin of the typescript my father wrote later (against the present note): '}He wandered widely after awakening: his people were Dwarves that joined him from other kindreds west and east.{'; and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which other Dwarves were laid to sleep near to the Fathers.]}] the eldest in making and awakening. The first had been in the north of the Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, DE-EX-07.4{and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks.[Footnote to the text: [In the rejected conclusion of note 21 the place of the awakening of the ancestor of the Longbeards was 'a valley in the Ered Mithrin' (the Grey Mountains in the far North). There has of course been no previous reference to this ancient significance of Mount Gundabad. That mountain originally appeared in the chapter The Clouds Burst in The Hobbit, where it is told that the Goblins 'marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled'; and it is shown on the map of Wilderland in The Hobbit as a great isolated mass at the northern end of the Misty Mountains where the Grey Mountains drew towards them. In The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (III), Gundabad appears in the account of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs late in the Third Age, where the Dwarves 'assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could [find] from Gundabad to the Gladden' (the word 'find' was erroneously dropped in the Second Edition).]]} The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their peopleDE-EX-07.5{; as was the case in the great War against the Orks (Third Age 2793 to 2799)}. Though they were loth to migrate and make permanent dwellings or 'mansions' far from their original homes, except under great pressure from enemies or after some catastropheDE-EX-07.6{ such as the ruin of Beleriand}, they were great and hardy travellers and skilled road-makers; also, all the kindreds shared a common language.[Footnote to the text: According to their legends their begetter, Aule the Vala, had made this for them and had taught it to the Seven Fathers before they were laid to sleep until the time for their awakening should come. After their awakening this language (as all languages and all other things in Arda) changed in time, and divergently in the mansions that were far-sundered. But the change was so slow and the divergence so small that even in the Third Age converse between all Dwarves in their own tongue was easy. As they said, the change in Khuzdul as compared with the tongue of the Elves, and still more with those of Men, was 'like the weathering of hard rock compared with the melting of snow.']>
Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. DE-EX-08<HoME 11; substitution to QS $5. The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, ...
Porbably we also should do something with the informtion from the footnote that 'other Dwarves were laid to sleep near to the Fathers'. But I hesitate about that in the moment.

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Old 09-05-2017, 11:17 AM   #7
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I would hesitate to chop up Of Dwarves and Men, as I have said before. I feel that by removing all the references to the Third Age, we are gutting an essentially complete work for no reason, especially when we can easily include it in its entirety in Volume II.
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:49 PM   #8
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I don't think that Of Dwarves and Men is useable complete in volume 2. If at all the essay would fit in volume 3. Of Dwarves and Men is in over all a linguistic essay. But its story content ranges from the awakening of Dwarves to the end of the Third Age.
But I anyhow think that the content is needed in many parts. Pushed in part 3 it is fully out of sequence. I agree that the forward references that are included are valuable. But the question have we to remove them all? In The Silmarillion we as well such forward references. Not over much but a few are there.

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Old 09-13-2017, 02:43 PM   #9
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Okay at long last I have made up my mind about the footnote concerning the additional dwarves add by Ilúvatar. I think they are needed. Therefore I propose the following:
Quote:
DE-EX-07{Then Aulë took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places; and he returned to Valinor, and waited while the long years lengthened.} <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone.DE-EX-07.1 <Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12, Note 24 {and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (a) But it is said that to each Dwarf Ilúvatar added {a mate of female kind,}>other Dwarves {were}that he laid to sleep near to the Fathers.> And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>
The only other open question that I can see in this thread is about how we handle Of Dwarves and Men. I for my part can’t see how we could use the full essay in one place. The most essential parts are what we used here and the passage about the Longbeards and the Northmen in the second age and that about the Drûg. The information of the awakening places of the Dwarves could be told in retrospect, but I don’t see that we could bring the complete essay anywhere near to LotR, where the Drûg part would be helpful as in introduction for the people of the Gâhn-buri-Gâhn. The Alliance of the Longbeards and the Northmen from an essential part of the story in the early Second Age. But in that place we can not use the entire essay either. So for me it is clear that we have to split it and use the parts where they belong chronologically as good as possible.

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Old 10-09-2017, 06:59 PM   #10
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For this chapter, I produced two texts, separating "Of Aule and the Dwarves" from "Of the Ents and the Eagles".

The basic text is the QS77, with only a few alterations and additions. I used "AD" for the text "Of Aule and the Dwarves".

As usual:
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion

Quote:
<AD Of Aulë and the Dwarves>

AD-01<AD The Naugrim are not of the Elf-kind, nor of Man-kind, nor yet of Melkor's breeding; ... to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar.>

<QS77 It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; ...

Now Iluvatar knew what was done, ... And the voice of Iluvatar said to him: AD-02 'Why {hast thou}[have you] done this? Why {dost thou}[do you] attempt a thing which {thou}[you] know{est} is beyond {thy}[your] power and {thy}[your] authority? For {thou hast}[you have] from me as a gift {thy}[your] own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of {thy}[your] hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when {thou}[you] think{est} to move them, and if {thy}[your] thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that {thy}[your] desire?'

Then Aule answered: 'I did not desire such lordship. I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Ea, AD-03 which {thou hast}[you have] caused to be. For it seemed ... Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by {thee}[you]; and the child of little understanding ... But what shall I do now, so that {thou}[you] be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to {thee}[you] these things, the work of the hands which {thou hast}[you have] made. Do with them what {thou wilt}[you will]. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'

Then Aule took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. ... And the voice of Iluvatar said to Aule: AD-04‘{Thy}[Your] offer I accepted even as it was made. {Dost thou}[Do you] not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from {thy}[your] blow, nor from any command of {thy}[your] will.' Then Aule cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Iluvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'

But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: 'Even as I gave being ... but in no other way will I amend AD-05 {thy}[your] handiwork, and as {thou hast}[you have] made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that {thy}[your] impatience should be rewarded. ... and until that time {thou}[you] and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to {thee}[you] as children; and often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.'

Then Aule took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them ...

<LQ And since they AD-06{came}[were to come] in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made them strong to endure. ... Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the re-making of Arda after the Last Battle.

AD-07<AD Now these Seven Fathers, they say, return to live again and to bear once more their ancient names>. {Now these Fathers, they say, were seven in number, and they alone return (in the manner of the Quendi) to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names.} Of these Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that Dwarf-kin most friendly to the Elves whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, for they had, even from the first days of their Fathers, ...

The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. ...

The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, and their languages have thus no kinship with those of the Quendi. ...

In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves Khazâd; ... and the Gonnhirrim masters of stone AD-08{; and those who dwelt in Belegost they called the Ennfeng or Longbeards, for their beards swept the floor before their feet}. The chief cities of the Khazâd in the west of Middle-earth in those days were at [Khazad-dûm], and at Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar, which are interpreted in the {Gnomish}[Sindarin] tongue Nornhabar the Dwarrowdelf, and Belegost Mickleburg, and Nogrod the Hollowbold. ... There battle later befell; but as yet the Dwarves troubled the Elves little, while the power of the Gnomes lasted.

AD-09Here end the words that {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] {spoke to me}[wrote] concerning the Dwarves, which are not part of the Pennas as it was written, but come from other books of lore, from the Lammas, the Dorgannas, and the Quentalë Ardanómion{: quoth Ælfwine}.>
Comments:

AD-01: This opening paragraph of AD was omitted from QS77.

AD-02: Christopher Tolkien says in XI that his father eventually settled on using the formal, "you", throughout AD, whereas QS77 uses "thou". I have reverted all instances of "thou" to "you".

AD-03: As AD-02

AD-04: As AD-02

AD-05: As AD-02

AD-06: Changed per Tolkien’s emendation to LQ1.

AD-07: Taking the later version of the statement about the Dwarf-fathers returning to life.

AD-08: The "Longbeards" were later the Dwarves of Khazad-dum, not of Belegost.

AD-09: Removal of Aelfwine.

For my text of "Anaxartaron Onyalië", with QS77 as the basis, I will only indicate the beginning, end, and changes, as the rest follows QS77.

Quote:
<Of the Ents and the Eagles Anaxartaron Onyalië>

Now when Aule laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work hidden from the other Valar; but at last he opened his mind to Yavanna and told her of all that had come to pass. ...

Therefore she went before Manwe, and she did not EE-01{betray}[bewray] the counsel of Aule, but she said: 'King of Arda, is it true, as Aule hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?'

...

'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to EE-02{Ilúvatar}[Eru] amid the wind and the rain.'

...

And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of EE-03{Iluvatar}[Eru]; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

...

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
Comments:

EE-01: Per XI; ‘betray’ in QS77 was an editorial alteration of ‘bewray’.

EE-02: Per XI, as EE-01; ‘Iluvatar’ in QS77 for original ‘Eru’.

EE-03: As EE-02.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-09-2017 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:43 AM   #11
Findegil
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This comparision is a difficult task. I will try to order the differences by occurrence and give some editing mark or some such as reference, so that the discussion might be at least easier to follow.

Happyly we both have chosen in this case the same basic text found in Sil77 page 16-17.

DE-SC-01 / AD-01: we added both these opening back in, but you toke up a bit too much. In your Version ‘It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar.’ is redundant.

AD-02 to AD-05: I was not so clear about this changes. Was it really all instances that Tolkien changed? If you think so, we can take these changes up into our common version.

DE-EX-01 to DE-EX-07: All these expansions of my draft Aiwendil did decised against or did not consider.

AD-06: The change reporte here is done in Sil77. Therefore I did not mention it.

AD-07: In my version I created a much fuller account of the rebirth of the fathers with DE-EX-10 to DE-EX-12. But I positioned it differently.

In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, …: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

DE-EX-07 / The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, ...: This paragraph from AD both have taken up into the draft.

The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, ...: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves Khazâd; ...: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

AD-08: I did a change in this passage of course, but quite differently. See the thread about ‘The Siege of Angband’.

AD-09: I did not take up this reference to Pengolod, but we might consider it. BY the way was {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] a decision taken by the project? I can’t remember.

DE-EX-09 to DE-EX-12: All these expansions of my draft Aiwendil did decised against or did not consider.

Sub-title: Aiwendil used the English title first and the Elvish second, while I did it the other way around. Since both were written of difrent amanuensis typescripts, we are completly free to chose, or was an other idea beyond your choice, Aiwendil?

DE-SC-04 / EE-01: These change was done in both versions. So I assume we agree on it.

DE-SC-05: this footnote found in HoMe 11 explaining ‘kelvar’ was not taken up by Aiwendil into his draft.

EE-02: This change from Iluvatar to Eru I missed in my Version, so I agree that it should be made.

DE-SC-06: This halfsentence was omitted from Sil778 because Christopher Tolkien thought it might imply that the sun was already in existence when Manwë thought about the Ents. This might have been Aiwendils reason not to include it as well. But since that vision is anyway a look into the future, I don’t think the omission is necessary. By the way I wrongly dedicated the source here as HoMe 12, as a matter of fact it is HoMe 11.

DE-SC-07 / EE-03: These change was done in both versions. So I assume we agree on it.

DE-SC-08: This passage was marked by Tolkien for exclusion, but Christopher Tolkien toke it nonetheless up into Sil77. In my draft I skipt it, Aiwendil kept it. I am open to both. In the event it is staing the fact of Middle-earth history that the Ents were doomed to die out in the Fourth Age and the dominion of Men.

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Old 10-10-2017, 08:49 PM   #12
Aiwendil
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A few quick comments for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
DE-SC-01 / AD-01: we added both these opening back in, but you toke up a bit too much. In your Version ‘It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar.’ is redundant.
My goodness, what an oversight! You are right, I included that sentence twice in a row.

Quote:
AD-02 to AD-05: I was not so clear about this changes. Was it really all instances that Tolkien changed? If you think so, we can take these changes up into our common version.
Discussing the text "Of Aule and the Dwarves", Christopher Tolkien says:

Quote:
There are a number of insignificant editorial alterations in the published text, and among them one point should be mentioned: my father was uncertain whether to use 'thou' or 'you' in the converse of Aulë with Ilúvatar (in one case he changed 'you may' to 'thou mayst' and then reverted to 'you may'). In the end he decided on 'you', whereas the published text has 'thou' throughout.
So yes, it appears that Tolkien's decision was to use "you" throughout this dialogue, despite the fact that Christopher for some reason opted for "thou" in the '77.

Quote:
AD-06: The change reporte here is done in Sil77. Therefore I did not mention it.
That's fair.

Quote:
AD-09: I did not take up this reference to Pengolod, but we might consider it. BY the way was {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] a decision taken by the project? I can’t remember.
It seems that in the time since I wrote this draft, we changed our mind about this - based on 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals', we decided to go back to Pengoloð/Pengolodh (see here.

Quote:
Sub-title: Aiwendil used the English title first and the Elvish second, while I did it the other way around. Since both were written of difrent amanuensis typescripts, we are completly free to chose, or was an other idea beyond your choice, Aiwendil?
I don't think I had any reasoning behind this; just arbitrary choice.

The other points require me to look at things a bit more carefully, so I'll do that when I get the chance.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:53 AM   #13
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AD-02 to AD-05: Okay, we take up these changes, but number them all. Also in DE-EX-04 we have:
Quote:
… thought be elsewhere, standing idle. DE-EX-04<Letters; no. 212 Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to AD-02.2{thee thine}< For consistence with Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 your> own thought. This is a mockery of me.> Is that AD-02.1{thy}<Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 your> desire?'
And I have a question: in the last instance of AD-05 you replaced ‘often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.' Is this corret? My feeling is that ‘your’ and ‘my’ would be correct, ‘yours’ doesn’t feels right at all. But that is based only on my feeling if I would add to it: ‘often strife shall arise between your children and my children. If that is true then ‘mine’ was used to corosponde nicely to ‘thine’. If we correct ‘thine’ to ‘your’ then shouldn’t we change ‘mine’ to ‘my’?

AD-06: I will include the edditng marker in the text, so that we can trak it.

AD-09: I think that we deciseded against using any diacritical signs in the normal text like ‘ð’. Therefore I assume it is Pengolodh. But in the case of Maedhros we have a late text of Tolkien naming him Maedros which was what we adopted. Looking up many of the references we have already included, I think I agree on taken this one up into our version as well, but I think it should go with the passages left of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to the end of ‘Of the Coming of the Noldor’

Titel: If your choise was arbitrary, I agrue that the Elvish should be first, since the English seems to be a kind of translation, or not?

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Old 10-11-2017, 12:08 PM   #14
Aiwendil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
And I have a question: in the last instance of AD-05 you replaced ‘often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.' Is this corret? My feeling is that ‘your’ and ‘my’ would be correct, ‘yours’ doesn’t feels right at all. But that is based only on my feeling if I would add to it: ‘often strife shall arise between your children and my children. If that is true then ‘mine’ was used to corosponde nicely to ‘thine’. If we correct ‘thine’ to ‘your’ then shouldn’t we change ‘mine’ to ‘my’?
No, it should be "yours and mine". "My" and "thy" correspond with "your" (these are possessive determiners, and cannot be used as predicate adjectives), whereas "mine" and "thine" correspond with "yours". If the word "children" were explicitly included, it would be correct to say "strife shall arise between your children and my children", but if "children" is left out, it must be "strife shall arise between yours and mine".

AD-09: OK. Personally, I don't trouble myself too much about things like ð vs. dh, as this is purely a matter of English orthography. We should, however, go with Tolkien's latest convention.

Quote:
Titel: If your choise was arbitrary, I agrue that the Elvish should be first, since the English seems to be a kind of translation, or not?
Yes, that does make more sense.
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