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Old 10-06-2017, 06:11 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril Of the Siege of Angband

This chapter is the last of the First Age chapters to have a draft posted! Hurray for progress!

This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Siege of Angband.

Our basis text is that of "Of the Siege of Angband" given in HoME V. Wherever the text is different from HoME V, this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
SA-LQ-xx for tracking any changes from the QS text to the LQ texts
SA-EX-xx for tracking any other additions or changes

These are General Name changes from LQ1 and LQ2 and are not marked in the draft: Eruman >Araman, Tun > Túna, Gnomes > Noldor, Thorndor > Thorondor, Bladorion > Ard-galen, Maidros > Maedros (the last only for the QS/LQ texts, not GA additions)

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source.

Quote:
SA-EX-01 <GA OF THE COMING OF THE NOLDOR>

SA-LQ-01 {§88. Before the rising of the Moon Fëanor ..... This was the first battle of Beleriand} <As was before told Fëanor and his sons came first of the Exiles to Middle-earth, and they landed in the waste of Lammoth upon the outer shores of the Firth of Drengist. Now that ..... ships at Losgar went down the winds of the Sea as a tumult of great wrath, and far away all that heard that sound was filled with wonder. SA-EX-02 <GA §42. Now the flames of that burning were seen not only by Fingolfin, whom Fëanor had deserted, but also by the Orcs and the watchers of Morgoth. No tale hath told what Morgoth thought in his heart at the tidings that Fëanor his bitterest foe had brought a host out of the West. Maybe he feared him little, for he had not yet had proof of the swords of the Noldor, and soon it was seen that he purposed to drive them back into the Sea.>
Under the cold stars before the rising of the Moon Fëanor and his folk marched eastward{, and they}. SA-EX-03 <GA Drengist is a long firth which pierces the Echoing Hills of {Eryd}[Ered] Lómin that are the west-fence of the great country of Hithlum. Thus the host of Fëanor> passed the {Eryd}[Ered] Lómin, and came into the great land of Hithlum, and crossing the country of Dor-Lómin they came at length to the long lake of Mithrim, and upon its north-shore they made their first camp in that region which was called by the like name.
SA-EX-04 {There a host of the Orcs, aroused ..... sons never to treat or parley with their foe.}<GA §44 But the host of Melkor, orcs and werewolves, came through the passes of {Eryd-wethrin}[Ered Wethrin] and assailed Fëanor on a sudden, ..... Eldar no more than a handful of leaves.
§45 Yet cause he had for great joy, ...... to his aid, and the Balrogs fled back to Angband.
§46. Then his sons raised up their father ....... of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

§47. Tidings of these great deeds ....... princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms.
§48. Thus there was from the first ....... long severance the tongue of the SA-EX-05 {Kalaquendi}[Amanyar] in Valinor and the {Moriquendi}[Úmanyar] in Beleriand had drawn far apart.

§49. Now Morgoth being dismayed by the rout of his armies and the unlooked-for valor of the Noldor, and desiring time for new designs, sent emissaries to {Maidros}[Maedros] SA-EX-06 <moved from next sentence the tall, the eldest son,> {§89. Yet even in the hour of his death an embassy came to them from Morgoth,} acknowledging defeat, and offering terms, even to the surrender of a Silmaril. Then Maedros moved up {the tall, the eldest son,} persuaded the Noldor to feign to treat with Morgoth, and to meet his emissaries .... and brought to Angband and tortured.
§90. Then the SA-EX-07 {six} brethren of Maedros ...... and they were unwilling to depart, SA-LQ-02 {whatever he might do.}<whatever he might do, being held by their oath.> Therefore Morgoth ..... right hand in a band of steel.
§91. Now rumor came to the camp in Hithlum of the march of Fingolfin and his sons, and {Inglor the son of Finrod}[Finrod the son of Finarfin], who had crossed the Grinding Ice. ...... Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming SA-LQ-03 {in the West}<above the shadows>; and Fingolfin unfurled ...... was come into the world SA-LQ-04 {, and good was made of evil, as happens still}. Then the Orcs .... their trumpets shook the towers of Thangorodrim.
SA-EX-08 {§92. But Fingolfin doubted the wiles of Morgoth, and he withdrew from the doors of hell, and turned back unto Mithrim, so that Eredwethion, the Shadow Mountains, might shelter his folk while they rested.} <GA §58. Now Fingolfin, being of other temper than Fëanor, and wary of the wiles of Morgoth, after sounding his challenge withdrew from Dor-Daedeloth and turned towards Mithrim, for he had heard tidings that there he should find the sons of Fëanor, and he desired also to have the shield of the mountains, while his folk rested and grew strong; for he had seen the strength of Angband and deemed not that it would fall to the sound of trumpets only. Therefore coming at length to Hithlum he made his first camp and dwelling by the north-shore of Lake Mithrim.>
But there was little love between those that followed Fingolfin and the house of Fëanor; for the agony of those that had endured the crossing of the ice had been great, and their hearts were filled with bitterness SA-EX-09 <GA ; and though Fingolfin learned that Fëanor was dead, he held his sons the accomplices of their father, and there was peril of war between the two hosts>. The numbers of the host of SA-LQ-05 {Túna}<Tirion> had been diminished ...... , and the lake lay between the peoples. SA-EX-10 <GA §60. Many indeed of Fëanor’s folk repented them sorely of the deed at Losgar, and were astounded at the valor which had brought the friends that they abandoned over the Ice of the North, and they would have welcomed them humbly had they dared for shame.> In this the work of the curse was seen, for the delay wrought by their feud did great harm to the fortunes of all the Noldor. They achieved nothing upon the Orcs SA-EX-11 <GA , while Morgoth was dismayed and his servants still cowed by the sudden light.>
§93. Then Morgoth arose from ..... seen in Hithlum, staining the bright airs SA-LQ-06 {of those earliest of mornings.}< in the first mornings of the world.> The North shook ..... , dark and poisonous.

SA-LQ-07 <Of Fingon and Maedros>

§94. Then Fingon the valiant resolved to heal the feud. Of all the children of Finwë he is justly most SA-LQ-08 {renowned}<honored>: for his valor was ..... of his torment troubled his heart SA-LQ-09 <, and long before, in the bliss of Valinor, ere Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, he had been close in friendship with Maedros> SA-EX-12 <GA (though he knew not yet that {Maidros}[Maedros] had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships)>. Aided by the very ....... aught save cries of fear and woe.
§95. Thus he found what he sought. ....... , and recall some pity for the SA-LQ-10 {banished Gnomes}<Noldor in their need>!'
§96. Now his prayer was answered ....... ; and he stayed Fingon's hand.
§97. Thorondor was the mightiest ..... and Thorondor bore them both to Mithrim.
§98. There Maedros in time was ...... By this deed Fingon won great renown, and all the Noldor praised him; and the feud SA-LQ-11 {was healed}<was assuaged> between Fingolfin and the sons of Fëanor. But Maedros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman, and SA-EX-13 {gave back the goods of Fingolfin that had been borne away in the ships; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor. To} to this his brethren did not all in their hearts agree. SA-EX-14 {Therefore the house of Fëanor were called the Dispossessed, (as Mandos foretold) because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elendë and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils.} But there was now a peace and a truce to jealousy; yet still there held the binding oath.

SA-EX-15 Of the Siege of Angband

§99. Now the Noldor being reunited marched ..... far and wide over the land, and they built there many fair habitations, and established realms SA-EX-16 {; for save in Doriath and in Ossiriand (of which more is after said) there were few folks there before them. These ...... that the restraint of Morgoth would last forever.} <GA §63. Beyond the Girdle of Melian those of {Finrod}[Finarfin]’s house were suffered to pass, for they could claim ..... of the deeds of Fëanor save his valiant death.
§64. And King Thingol hearkened, ....... or who seek me in great need.'
§65. Now the Noldor held council ...... of war in the highlands.
§66. To this council came Angrod ....... we shall go as seems good to us.'
§67. But {Cranthir}[Caranthir], who loved not ..... , though their mother was of other kin.'
§68. Then Angrod was exceedingly wroth ...... burst forth in rash word or violence.
§69. Therefore when the council came ...... , and not the least wise.'
§70 But the sons of Fëanor departed ....... with their kinsfolk westward, save at need.
§71 It is said, indeed, that {Maidros}[Maedros] ....... , though it slept now for a time.
§72. SA-EX-17 {In this year}[During this time] Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, called .... Shadow brooded in the North. (At this feast it is recorded that the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for whereas the Noldor readily learned the speech of the land, the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Aman.)>
SA-EX-18 {But the}The hearts of the Noldor were high and full of hope, and it seemed to many of them that the words of Fëanor had been justified, bidding them seek freedom and fair kingdoms in Middle-earth.

SA-EX-01: I have chosen this subheading from the Grey Annals as a more fitting name for the chapter, after adding in much material from the Grey Annals, as the bulk of this chapter now deals with events before the Siege of Angband. In the published Sil, CT named it "Of the Return of the Noldor," but I opted to stick with the Tolkien heading from the Grey Annals.
SA-LQ-01: The whole original first paragraph of QS was replaced by a few paragraphs in LQ.
SA-EX-02: Some material from the Grey Annals not in QS or LQ
SA-EX-03: Same as 02
SA-EX-04: The account in the Grey Annals is far more fleshed out, so I have replaced the QS account. There is a minor difference between the two, in that in the (older) QS version the battle takes place in Bladorion, whereas in the (newer) GA version it is a vast battle taking place in Mithrim, Serech, and Bladorion over the course of 10 days. The LQ account never updated the story in QS, but it can be assumed that the GA version was the final one, as it was written at a similar time to LQ, and could be viewed as a summary, with only minute differences.
SA-EX-05: We are told in Q&E that the term Moriquendi was considered offensive and never used by the people in Beleriand, so I replaced the terms with the more acceptable Amanyar and Umanyar.
SA-EX-06: This is the transition from the GA insertion to the QS main text. I have moved the descriptors for Maedros up to the first occurrence of his name in the new paragraph to smooth out the transition.
SA-EX-07: I eliminated "six" because one of the twins is dead at this point.
SA-LQ-02: This is the LQ update to the QS text.
SA-LQ-03: This is the LQ update to the QS text.
SA-LQ-04: This was removed in LQ
SA-EX-08: This account in GA was fuller, so I added it in, along with a paragraph break from GA.
SA-EX-09: The peril of war was not in QS.
SA-LQ-05: Update from QS to LQ.
SA-EX-10: This is not in QS.
SA-EX-11: Again, not in QS.
SA-LQ-06: Update from QS to LQ.
SA-LQ-07: This heading was added into he LQ text.
SA-LQ-08: Update from QS to LQ.
SA-LQ-09: This was added in LQ.
SA-EX-12: This is not in QS.
SA-LQ-10: Update from QS to LQ.
SA-LQ-11: Update from QS to LQ.
SA-EX-13: I removed this, firstly because in the Shibboleth insertion we used it is said that the Noldor did not have time to unload most of the things from the ships, so they cannot have Fingolfin's stuff to give him, and secondly because in the Grey Annals account Maedros renounces the kingship later at a council. I have left the sentence in about the discontent of the Sons of Feanor, but as this was in reference to the kingship this may be removed.
SA-EX-14: This is said later on in a Grey Annals insertion.
SA-EX-15: This is an addition I am making in the interest of keeping the Of the Siege of Angband heading in the text, as well as to separate a very large section of Grey Annals text concerning the Siege into its own section. There is no heading here in QS, but I think it merits one in this version.
SA-EX-16: This section is replaced by a much much fuller version in the Grey Annals.
SA-EX-17: This is a simple wording change due to the fact that this is not Annal format.
SA-EX-18: Here we come back to our QS base text, but as the antecedent sentences were removed, the "But" has no reference, so I have removed it for smoother transition.

With that, all the drafts for the First Age are complete!!!
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:27 PM   #2
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I will not comment on the SA-LQ-zz changes. It is obvious that we have to do these. I only added the source information and slightly changed the fromat of the change to look like
Quote:
SA-LQ-zz{text replaced} <LQ replacement text> …
All the changes of the SA-EX-zz typ that I do not comment on I agree to.

SA-EX-01 and SA-EX-15: I agree to change the title and use ‘Of the Siege of Angband’ as sub-heading.

SA-EX-05: I am not sure if we should make this change. So I can understand your reasoning, it is not clear to me if that means we can not use these names.

SA-EX-05.5: I think we should add here a bit from Sil77 so we do not know were it comes from:
Quote:
But that evil lay as yet in the days to come, and the first meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor was eager and glad, though parley was at first not easy between them, for in their long severance the tongue of the SA-EX-05 Kalaquendi in Valinor and the Moriquendi in Beleriand had drawn far apart. SA-EX-05.5 <Sil77 From the Elves of Mithrim the Noldor learned of the power of Elu Thingol, King in Doriath, and the girdle of enchantment that fenced his realm.>
SA-EX-06.5: In reference to the Bye Bye Balrogs thread we should follow Christopher Tolkien in changing the embassy of Morgoth from Balrogs only to some Balrogs included:
Quote:
… Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater and SA-EX-06.5{they}<Sil77 there> were Balrogs. Maedros was ambushed, and all his company was slain, but he himself was taken alive by the command of Morgoth, and brought to Angband and tortured. …
SA-EX-07.2: As we have taken up Arakáno and his valiant behavior from the Shibboleth and included him in the Athrabeth we have here to include the battle of Lammoth. By the way I don’t think that we shouldname him ‘Argon’. In the Shibboleth we told that his own name was never changed, because of his early death. The name ‘Argon’ was later used to name children by sindarin speaking people in memory of his deed, not because it was his name.
Quote:
… §91 Now rumor came to the camp in Hithlum of the march of Fingolfin and his sons, and {Inglor the son of Finrod}[Finrod the son of Finarfin], who had crossed the Grinding Ice. And all the world lay then in new wonder at the coming of the Moon; for even as the Moon first rose Fingolfin set foot upon Middle-earth, and the Orcs were filled with amazement. SA-EX-07.2 <Shibboleth, Note 38 {When the}Nonetheless an onset of the Orks caught the host at unawares as they marched southwards and the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, {he}when Arakáno sprang forward and hewed a path through the foes, daunted by his stature and the terrible light of his eyes, till he came to the Ork-captain and felled him. Then though he himself was surrounded and slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter.> SA-EX-07.3<Shibboleth This was the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth.> {But even}Even as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming SA-LQ-03 {in the West}<LQ above the shadows>; and Fingolfin unfurled his blue and silver banners, …
SA-LQ-04: I have some sympathy for Douglas Charles Kane, who whiched that these sentence would not have been removed. But in the end, it was JRR Tolkien who removed it.

SA-EX-07.5: Again a bit from GA to be used since it is not found elsewhere:
Quote:
But Fingolfin marched through the fastness of the realm of Morgoth, that is Dor-Daedeloth, the Land of Dread, and his foes hid beneath the earth; but the Elves smote upon the gates of Angband, and the challenge of their trumpets shook the towers of Thangorodrim. SA-EX-07.5<GA And {Maidros}[Maedros] heard them amid his torment and cried aloud, but his voice was lost in the echoes of the stone.>
SA-EX-08 {§92 But Fingolfin doubted the wiles of Morgoth, ...
SA-EX-16: I think we must take out a bit more here. Before the fateful parley in which Caranthir verbally attacked Angrod, I would not say that ‘the Noldor began now to wander far and wide over the land, and they built there many fair habitations, and established realms’. This comes rather from the 20 years period before the Mereth Aderthad. In addition I would include a paragraph braek here.
Quote:
And behind the guard of their armies in the North the Noldor began now to wander far and wide over the land. SA-EX-16 {, and they built there many fair habitations, and established realms; for save in Doriath and in Ossiriand …
SA-EX-17: I think here we should use the formulation of Christopher Tolkien:
Quote:
§72 SA-EX-17 {In this year}<Sil77 When twenty years of the Sun had passed> Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, called a great council and made a high feast, …
SA-EX-19 and SA-EX-20: Here I think is the palce to add the sub-chapter ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ it is here well before Finrod seeks fro help in building Nargothrond and just after Caranthir moved to the east. Christopher Tolkien inserted a smaller bit of this text slightly ealier, but with this longer text we would breakt the flow of the text and I don’t think that it is a problem to have 20 years pass before telling that Caranthir meet the Dwarves. SA-EX-21 is an addition from GA that we did not consider it the former place of this sub-chapter, but which seems to belong here. The rest of the changes in this sub-chapter have already be discussed.
Quote:
SA-EX-18 {But the}The hearts of the Noldor were high and full of hope, and it seemed to many of them that the words of Fëanor had been justified, bidding them seek freedom and fair kingdoms in Middle-earth. SA-EX-19<LQ2, moved from chapter ‘Concering the Dwarves and the Edain’
Concerning the Dwarves
§1 SA-EX-20 {Now in time the building of Nargothrond was completed, and Gondolin had been raised in secret; but in the days of the Siege of Angband the Gnomes had yet small need of hiding-places, and they ranged far and wide between the Western Sea and the Blue Mountains. }NE-CD-01 <GA 150 The people of Caranthir Fëanor’s son dwelt beyond the upper waters of {Gelion}[Duin Daer], about Lake Helevorn under the shadow of the Blue Mountains. At this time>{And} it is said that they climbed {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] and looked eastward in wonder, for the lands of Middle-earth seemed wild and wide; but none ever passed over the mountains while Angband lasted. In those days the folk of {Cranthir}[Caranthir] first came upon the Dwarves, whom {they [>} the Dark-elves{]} named the Naugrim; for the chief dwellings of that race were then in the mountains east of {Thargelion}[Talath Rhúnen], the land of {Cranthir}[Caranthir], and were digged deep in the eastern slopes of {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon]. Thence they journeyed often into Beleriand, and were admitted even into Doriath. SA-EX-21<GA {after}After the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor the Dwarves had ceased their traffick into Beleriand. Now, though either people loved skill and was eager to learn, there was little love between the Noldor and the Dwarves. For the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, whereas {Cranthir}[Caranthir] was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his folk followed their lord. Nonetheless, since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit. For the Naugrim learned many secrets of craft in those days, so that the smiths and masons of Nogrod and Belegost became renowned among their kin; but the Noldor got great wealth of iron, and their armouries became filled with store of weapons and harness of war. Moreover thereafter, until the power of {Maidros}[Maedros] was overthrown, all the traffick of the dwarf-mines passed first through the hands of {Cranthir}[Caranthir], and thus he won great riches.> There was at that time no enmity between Elves and Dwarves, but nonetheless no great love. NE-CD-02{
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim.[Footnote to the text: All that follows in the section 'Concerning the Dwarves' is written in a much smaller script than that of the opening paragraph.]
§2 The Naugrim are not of Elf-kind, … Arda after the Last Battle.
§3 Now these Fathers, … mansions were at Khazad-dûm.}
§4 In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, … save in further trading. NE-CD-03{
The Naugrim were ever, … and now is dwindling.}
NE-CD-03.1{§6 The father-tongue of the Dwarves … speeches of the Elves.[Footnote to the text: Thus the Lammas.]}
§7 In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves {Khuzud [>} Khazâd{]}; and the Dark-elves called them the Naugrim {[> Naug]}, the stunted. Which name the exiled Noldor {also used [>} likewise took for them{]}, but called them also the Nyrn {[struck out: of like meaning]}, and the Gonnhirrim masters of stone; and those who dwelt in {Belegost}[Khazad-dûm] they called the Ennfeng or Longbeards, for their beards swept the floor before their feet. The chief cities of the {Khuzud [>} Khazâd{]} in the west of Middle-earth in those days were at Khazad-dûm, and at Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar, which are interpreted in the {Gnomish}[Elvish] tongue {Nornhabar}[Hadhodrond] the Dwarrowdelf, and Belegost Mickleburg, and Nogrod the Hollowbold. Greatest of all the mansions of the Naugrim was Khazad-dûm, that was after called in the days of its darkness Moria, but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador; whereas Belegost and Nogrod were upon the east side of {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] and nigh to the lands of the Eldar. Yet few of the Elves, save {Meglin}[Maeglin] of Gondolin, went ever thither; and the Dwarves trafficked into Beleriand, and made a great road that passed under the shoulders of Mount Dolmed and followed thence the course of Ascar, crossing {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer]. There battle later befell; but as yet the Dwarves troubled the Elves little, while the power of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] lasted.{
§8. Here end the words that Pengolod spoke to me concern ing the Dwarves, which are not part of the Pennas as it was. written, but come from other books of lore, from the Lammas, the Dorgannas, and the Quentale Ardanomion: quoth Ælfwine.>
That’s all I could find.

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Old 10-09-2017, 03:00 PM   #3
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SA-EX-05: I feel that the insert from Q&E earlier would serve no purpose if we then use Moriquendi, after it was already said that this name was never used.

SA-EX-05.5: agreed.

SA-EX-06.5: agreed.

SA-EX-07.2: agreed to the insert, but I am still strongly in favor of using Argon. It is said that this version of his name was made in retrospect for the retelling of his valor, and is that not exactly what this is? a retelling of his valiant deed written long afterwards? Besides, all the names of the Noldor are given in Sindarin form, even before they came to Beleriand.

SA-EX-07.5 agreed.

SA-EX-16: agreed.

SA-EX-17: agreed.

SA-EX-19, 20: I agree that this fits very naturally here, but beyond this, what is the reasoning for moving it? Is it simply due to Grey Annals chronology? if so that makes sense, and I agree.

SA-EX-21: agreed.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:11 PM   #4
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SA-EX-07.2 Argon: If you are adamant on changing it, then we wil change it her and in the Atrabeth.

SA-EX-19 and SA-EX-20: The reason to move this, is that Finrod had the help of the Naugrim, while in the old place Caranthir meet the Dwarves after Nargothrond was full wraught.

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Old 10-09-2017, 03:19 PM   #5
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SA-EX-07.2: I do feel pretty strongly about it, but we could wait for Aiwendil to make his way through the drafts to this point and give his opinion.

SA-EX-19, 20: agreed then
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:21 PM   #6
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In addition, I believe you inserted Argon into the FoN chapter as well, so it would need to be changed there too.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:27 PM   #7
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True, and I found it there as well.

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Old 10-09-2017, 07:38 PM   #8
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I just realized, if we add the Battle of Lammoth into the story, must we not change the numbers of the later battles? from the Third to the Fourth etc? or is this to be like the later battle in the same region, which was considered too small to count?
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:14 AM   #9
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I would say it is not one of the great numbered battles. Only a part of the Noldor were involved and it seemed to be a fast victory. There are other examples of battels not counted:
- The attack on Hithlum from the west
- The first coming of Glaurung
- The attack on Hithlum in which Galdor was killed
- The attack on the Falas
- The Fall of Dor-Cúrathol
- The Fall of Nargothrond
- The Fall of Gondolin
The criterium seems to be how many of the Elves are involved.


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Old 10-10-2017, 09:30 AM   #10
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ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
ok phew... I was not looking forward to trying to find all references to the number of great battles to change them
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