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Old 11-18-2003, 06:17 PM   #1
Findegil
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Sting Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

So, now for the last section:

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned below (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text

<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for garmatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring.
Since full-text quoting is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes.

§43a (§32) RD-FP-01 <QS30 Now the Dwarf-road to Nogrod{ and Belegost} in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Gelion, where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], son{s} of Féanor. To the south of those lands between the river and the mountains lay the land of {Assariad}[Ossiriand], and there lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Côr}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First ]Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand].> RD-FP-02 And at<Sil77 {At} that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with Gelion; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.> RD-FP-03 <QS30 But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Men called it oft {Cuilwarthien}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.

§43b (§33) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Ascar}[Gelion], near to its joining with {Duilwen}[Ascar] that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athra}[ Sarn Athrad], the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes}.>

§44 (§34) RD-FP-04 <Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over Gelion at the Ford of Stones. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien; and in that time also a messenger came to them out of Doriath telling of what had befallen there{.}>: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is slain.’

§45 & §46a (§35) Then did both Beren and Tinuviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale{ of Huan} dry their eyes. When then it was ...

§46b (§36) RD-FP-05 Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and befor ever the moon was high above the hills the {host}[company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows. ‘Yet,’ said Beren, ‘speed is that which now we need the most’; and certain Elves at his bidding fared like deer before him, seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, and Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and {Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}[the departure of Melian].

§46c (§37) Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head. RD-FP-06 {, and beside him Ufedhin and Bodruith; … here we take out again the rest of these and the next 3 paragraphs, until: … ; yet few have pitied him.
Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining RD-FP-07 { from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, feigning to be an Elf of Artanor escaped from bondage in their host. Now therefore they entreated him well, and he was sent back to Beren that their captain might ............ his words, and albeit Beren marvelled at his [?cowardly]......’ and downward glance it seemed to him that he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-FP-08 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Gelion] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach Sarn{a}[-A]throd the Stony Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Gelion] is a fierce stream RD-FP-09 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means can be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor is it overeasy here. Never would Naugladur have taken that way had he knowledge of Beren - yet blinded by the spell and the dazzling gold he feared nought either within or without his host, and he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.

§46d (§38) Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Gelion], ...

§46e (§39) Morn was it when they reached the hither bank ...

§46f (§40) Suddenly is all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above ...

§47 (§41) Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them, while {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly. Now was that great fight of the Stony Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur, for even ... their white beards torn by the wind, filled them with mirth. RD-FP-10 <Sil77 {but}[But] some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.>

§48 (§42) But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and RD-FP-11 { he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.

§49 (§43) Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace ... and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his dwarfen mail; ... ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ ... But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].

§51a (§45) Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Féanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand]. But RD-FP-12 <Sil77 the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Goldenbed.>

§51b (§46) But the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for ...

§51c (§47) But in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there ... remembering the first days of their love and those days of travail in the wild{.}, RD-FP-13 <QS30 and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>{ Now is it to be said that Beren sent for Ufedhin and … here we take out again 3 paragraphs and the first part of the 4th, until: … and came never again into the tales of the dwellers of Earth; but}But upon Beren and Tinúviel fell swiftly that doom of mortality that Mandos had spoken when he sped them from his halls - and in this perhaps did the curse of Mîm have [{?} potency] in that it came more soon upon them; RD-FP-14 { nor this time did those twain fare the road together, but when yet was the child of those twain, Dior’ the Fair, a little one, did Tinuviel slowly fade, even as the Elves of later days have done throughout the world, and she vanished in the woods, and none have seen her dancing ever there again. But Beren searched all the lands of Hithlum and of Artanor ranging after her; and never has any of the Elves had more loneliness than his, or ever he too faded from life,} and Dior {his}their son was left ruler of the brown Elves and the green, and Lord of the Nauglafring. RD-FP-15 {
Mayhap what all Elves say is true, that those twain hunt now in the forest of Orome in Valinor, and Tinuviel dances on the green swards of Nessa and of Vana daughters of the Gods for ever more; yet} Yet great was the grief of the Elves when the Guilwarthon went from among them, and being leaderless and lessened of magic their numbers minished; and many fared away <editorial addition with Dior.>{to Gondolin, the rumour of whose growing power and glory ran in secret whispers among all the Elves.}

§52 (§48) RD-FP-16 <QS30 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor; yet it shielded him not from the fate of the oath of the sons of Féanor. For Dior went back to Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, {and}because she had departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.> But still{Still} did Dior RD-FP-17 { when come to manhood} rule a numerous folk, and he loved the woods even as Beren had done; and songs name him mostly Ausir the Wealthy ...

§ 53 /moved up/

§ 54 /taken out/

§ 55 /taken out/

§56a (§49) RD-FP-18 {Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf,' Auredhir and Elwing, and Auredhir was most like to his forefather Beren, and all loved him, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinuviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the elfin folk of yore. Now those were days of happiness in the vales of Hithlum, for there was peace with Melko and the Dwarves who had but one thought as they plotted against Gondolin, and Angband was full of labour; yet}Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Féanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel,} and to {Damrod}[Amrod], and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Cranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty, and he said to them ...

§56b (§50) Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him ...

§57 & §58a (§51) Then went Curufin unto his brethren, and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon Dior, and Dior RD-FP-19 { and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <Sil77 and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros<editorial addition later> indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Eluréd and Elurín no tale tells.> {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a {Gnome}[Noldor], took her unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, and they bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Féanor saw it not; but a host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on their rear, and there was a great battle, and {Maglor}[Curufin] was slain with swords,{ and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild}, and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Cranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Feanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord; RD-FP-20 {and it is said that even on the day of that battle of the Elves Melko sought against Gondolin, and the fortunes of the Elves came to their uttermost waning.}<Sil77 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.>

§58b (§52) Now was naught left of the seed of Beren Ermabwed son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her, and they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Doriath] and got them to the south towards Sirion's deep waters, and the pleasant lands. And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of Earendel. RD-FP-21 {; and to that tale's true beginning are we now come.' Then said Ailios: 'And methinks that is tale enow for this time of telling.'}

§59 /moved up/

The comments will followe soon.

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Edited to change format.

Last edited by Findegil; 07-26-2004 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 12-31-2003, 01:59 PM   #2
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Sting

Great job, Findegil. Aside from the obvious omissions of dated place and person names, the integration of other works into the flow of the passage was stupendous. I have only one extremely miniscule piece of input, probably not even worth noting.

Quote:
The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house./Sil77/ But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Men called it oft {Cuilwarthien}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.
I would leave out the "but" in "But Beren went no more to war..." sentence, since the word implies a conflict between the clause "But Beren went no more to war" and the added bit from the Silmarillion, and I see none. I would simply omit it or replace it with "[And]". The "but" makes sense in the context of the original passage, but your addition from the Silm calls for an omission of the word.

Just a rather mundane observation, great work all in all!
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Old 01-06-2004, 07:32 AM   #3
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Thanks for the comment Lord of A.. If my Version will be the one we will work from, I will take up your suggestion.

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Old 07-26-2004, 07:34 AM   #4
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Changing the format of my version of the Fall of Doriath, I found out that I never did the comments and comparision for this final part that I had promised. I soon found also that this is a hard work because Maedhros version differ very much from my own. But well, if we ever will get to start with this chapter we will nontheless nedd it. So he we go:

§43a: Maedhros took not the first part of my §. He only used the Sil77 part that builded the second part in my §. But I thougt the discription of the way the Dwarves were to take fited nicely in this place.

§43b: Meadhors left that geographical information out again.

§44: Maedhros used Melian as the messenger. His § reads:
Quote:
§ 44 [Now {doth the tale know no more to tell of Huan, save that even while the swords still sang that great dog was speeding through the land, and his way led him as the [?wind]} [came Melian] to the land of Dor Firn-i-Guinar, {the living-dead} ['Land of the Dead that Live'], where reigned Beren and Tinúviel the daughter of Thingol. {Not in any settled abode did those twain dwell, nor had their realm boundaries well-marked – and indeed no other messenger save Huan alone to whom all ways were known had ever found Beren and obtained his aid so soon}. Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs} [dwarves] were burning all the land of Thingol and the Firebeards {and the Indrafangin [Broadbeams]} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan} [Melian] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly {stood Huan} [Melian appeared] before them, and Beren gave a cry of joy and wonder, {for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together,} {B} but Tinúviel looking upon {Huan} [her mother] saw that [s]he {bled} [wept], and there was a tale to read in h{is} [er] great eyes. And she said suddenly: “What evil then has fallen upon Doriath?” and {Huan} [Melian] said: “Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.”]
But as I said before, I would think if Melian was cool enough to search for Beren and Lúthien, why did she lift the girdle and laid Doriath porne to its foes?

§45 & §46: Maedhros used here part of the Sil77, his § reads:
Quote:
§ 45 [Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale of {Huan} [Melian] dry their eyes. QS77**/[Thereafter Melian {spoke to none save to Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Lúthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and} passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.]/

§ 46 When {then} it was [all] told QS77**/[{Then} Beren arose **TN/ to his feet in white wrath, and seizing a horn that hung at his belt he blew a clear blast thereon that rang round all the neighbouring hills [and green elves] sprang as it were by magic towards him/, and summoning to him Dior his son [he] left Tol Galen [and] they went north to the River Ascar.]
Now this is extremly short in comparision what the Tale of the Nauglafring did have. So i adopted much more of the Tale. Since Ufedhins role as a companion of the Dwarves is gone he can not play his part here, but I thought that Berens scouts could have gathered the necessary information without him. Also i diminished the rely big host of the Green-Elves to a small company following the Letter no.247 were Tolkien said that Beren had no Army.

§47: Maedhros used this § completly from Sil77 while I did only use the introduction of the Ents following Letter no.247

§48- §50: Here We go completly conform.

§51: Maedhros used only what I have called §51a without the addition from Sil77 and my addition from the Sil77 to §51c. Thus he did not tell the renaming of the Acar nor used he the fuller account of the return of Beren.

§52: Maedhros took that § from the Sil77.

§53: Here Maedhros used the passage from the Tale about the Hoard of Glaurung lying in the River and being protected by a flood when some one seeked for it.

§54 &§55: Here again Maedhros used Sil77 to recount the death of Beren and Lúthien. But thought it better to use the older acount were they did dy during Diors time in Ossiriand.

§56 - §59: Maedhros used here the version of the second kinslaying of the Sil77 but I found it better to use the old Tale and updat it were necessary.



When ever we come to work on this chapter, I think we should start with a discussion which version we should use as a first basis of further development. But that has to wait until we have done the rest of work at hand.

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Old 07-27-2004, 04:20 PM   #5
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Findegil, I had been hard at work with my version of the Ruin of Doriath. What I posted in this forum was only my first draft, I have taken a lot of your suggestions into account and there are somethings with your version that I didn't use eg. (attitude of the dwarves asking for some female elves as a reward).
Since we seem to have come to a cul-de-sac in our Eärendil chapter, I was wondering if you would be interested in reviewing my version (4th draft) so that we can come to a compromise and have a base text (which would be IMO very advanced because it would have both of our inputs) to begin the work on the Ruin of Doriath chapter.
Can I send it to you be email? I do not want to post it yet here because I think it will only bring more confusion.
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:58 AM   #6
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I can clearly read and comment on your version, if you like.

Send it to: Ralf.Volles@gmx.de

It could take some time before I will start reading since I am reading Antoines last FoG Version, which is a hard task.

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Old 07-29-2004, 10:08 AM   #7
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I have send you my draft of my version. As I have said before, it takes into account a lot of your input especially in the beginning, but as we move towards the middle of the story our views differ a lot.
I hope that we can reach a middle ground in it so that the result can be used as the base of that discussion.
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Old 07-30-2004, 01:49 AM   #8
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Since I hav as jet only read the first page of the draft I will not comment on it in generall. But it seems clear that the finding of the middleground as a basis for the gorupworking is what we have to do.

More on this when I have read it through and made a komparision with my owne ideas expressed in my prolonged Version.

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Old 12-07-2004, 12:07 PM   #9
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.
Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.

Quote:
§43a (§27) Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River {Gelion}[Duin Dear], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Dear], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand]. RD-EX-66 <Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon … the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.> RD-EX-67<TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the elfin folk of yore.> {But}And Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.

§43b (§28) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Dear], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes{ and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}. RD-EX-68<Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over {Gelion}[Duin Dear] at the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien>.

§ 44 (§29) RD-EX-69<TN, Note 13 {Then}It was told that, when seeing no hope <editorial addition in Doriath> {Gwendelin and her companions}[Melain] fared with the utmost speed out of that land of sorrow, even to the {kingdom of i- Guilwarthon in Hisilome}[land of Dor Firn-i-Guinar in Ossirand], where reigned Beren and Tinuviel her daughter. Now Beren and Tinúviel lived not in any settled abode, nor had their realm boundaries well-marked, and no other messenger save {Gwendelin daughter of the Vali}[Melian the Maia] had of a surety found those twain the living-dead so soon.> RD-EX-70 <TN Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs} [dwarves] were burning all the land of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and{ the Nauglath and the Indrafangin} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan} [Melian] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly stood {Huan}[Melian] before them, and Beren gave a cry of joy and wonder, {for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together,} {But}[but] Tinúviel looking upon {Huan} [her mother] saw that {he bled} [she wept], and there was a tale to read in {his great }[her] eyes. And {she}Tinúviel said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon {Artanor}[Doriath]?’ and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and{ the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.’>

§45 & §46a (§30) <TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale{ of Huan} dry … towards him from{ every} glade and coppice, stream and fell.>

§46b (§31) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were … seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <Sil77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of [Thingol]{Tinwelint, and Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}.>

§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin … safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Duin Dear] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Dear] the {Stony}[Great] Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Duin Dear] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions … in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>

§46d (§33) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Duin Dear], and … halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, … laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Dear] on their day of doom.>

§46e (§34) <TN Morn was it … Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and }prepare to get him over, for the armed … resting awhile.>

§46f (§35) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}that was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the … into the currents of the {Aros}[Duin Dear], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>

§47 (§36) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host{.}[ were slain,] RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled>.

§48 (§37) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial edition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

§49 (§38) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an … all should stay their hands.>

§50 (§39) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that … ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will … But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Duin Dear].>

§51a (§40) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <Sil77And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Goldenbed.>

§51b (§41) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream[of Duin Dear] at that enchanted place.

§51c (§42) But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril{;}. RD-EX-80 <TN {But}And in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there gladness at the homecoming of the Elves, and great was the joy of Tinuviel to see her lord once more returning amidst his {companies}[company], but little did it ease her grief … those days of travail in the wild>, and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor{, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light}.

§ 51d (§43) RD-EX-81 <TN Now hearing {the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[of Berens return Melain] looked in wonder{ after him, and stayed her tender words; and memory came back into her eyes so that}[, and] she cried as in amaze beholding the Necklace of the Dwarves that hung about the white throat of Tinúviel. Then wrathfully she asked of Beren what it might portend, and wherefore he suffered the accursed thing to touch Tinúviel; {and}[then] told Beren all that tale {such as Huan had told him, in deed or guess, and} of the pursuit and fighting at the ford{ he told also},saying at the end: ‘Nor indeed do I see who, now that Lord {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is fared to Valinor, should so fittingly wear that jewel of the {Gods}[Valar] as Tinúviel.’ But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another … as it burnt the {[? }foul{]} flesh of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]. ‘Nor,’ said he, ‘have I seen … that is the work of baleful smiths indeed.’>

§ 51e (§44) <TN Then said Tinúviel that … would not suffer it to be flung away, but warded it in his [treasury].>

§51f (§45) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.}<movedfrom above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
RD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Lúthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Lúthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}

§ 52a (§46) RD-SL-29 <Sil77 Now Dior Thingol's heir bade farewell to Beren and Lúthien, and departing … set himself to raise anew the glory of the kingdom of Doriath.>

§ 52b (§47) RD-SL-30 <Sil77 There came a night of autumn, and … go the race of Men to a fate beyond the world.>

§52c (§48) RD-EX-82 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of … sons of Fëanor. For Dior {went back to } RD-SL-31 <TY with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored]> Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.

§56a (§49) But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. RD-EX-83 <TN Yet{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel}, and to {Damrod}[Amrod, and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}.> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}. RD-EX-84 <TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with {Melko}[Morgoth] nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegrom], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>

§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrains his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him … Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<[b]editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>RD-EX-86 <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>

§57 & §58a (§51) RD-EX-87 <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, RD-SL-32.5 <TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames}inflamed the brethren,> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk RD-EX-88{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon RD-SL-33{Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also {Celegorn}[Celegorm] (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>,RD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again. RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Sil77 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros later indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)>

§58b (§52) RD-SL-35 <TN A {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on {their}the rear of the host of the sons of Fëanor, and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Caranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves{ and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord>.

§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>. RD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}And in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/>RD-EX-95 <TN they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] and got them to the south towards Sirion's deep waters, and the pleasant lands. And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of {Earendel}[Eärendil].
I don't think that I will open the discussion on these version. I hope someone else we do so.

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Old 12-07-2004, 11:46 PM   #10
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There are several instances in which you used Duin Dear instead of Duin Daer.

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§46f (§35) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one
As noted before.

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§50 (§39) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men],
It should be Man and not men me thinks.

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§ 51d (§43) RD-EX-81 <TN Now hearing {the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[of Beren’s return Melain]
You missed the apostrophe.

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But Beren {laughed}[answered], saying that the glory of the Silmaril and its holiness might overcome all such evils,
To me, it would seem disrespectful if Beren laughed at Melian. I would rather say answered.

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§ 51e (§44) <TN Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the {elfin}[elvish]
ibid.

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§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY Maedhros restrain{s}[ed] his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>[b]RD-EX-86 <TY {[Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./}>
I would change the tense of the verb to restrain to the past tense. I would deleted the bold part because if Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, I would assume that there is no way that Dior would give the sons of Fëanor the silmaril.

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§57 & §58a (§51) RD-EX-87 <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, RD-SL-32.5 <TY and Celegorm {inflames}inflamed the brethren,> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk RD-EX-88{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon RD-SL-33{Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also Celegorm (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>,RD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again. RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold {, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Sil77 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}}the Lady Nimloth escaped with Elwing> {unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not;
I would remove the bold parts because are the names Evranin and Gereth valid in actual Sindarin? Also if the mother of Elwing took her and they were under attack, one would assume that she would go willingly with her mother.

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§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she [along with Nimloth] wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>.
I added the part in bold because of the previous change that Elwing fled with her mother.

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And thus did all the fates of the {fairies}[elves] weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of Eärendil.
fairies should be elves me thinks.
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Old 12-08-2004, 09:54 AM   #11
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Dear -> Daer: Oops, seemed an systymatical typo of mine. Corrected for the next version.

§51d laughed -> answered: But it was equally disrespectfull for Beren to laughed at his mother in law in TN than it is in our version. So why should we change it? Okay, Melain is now a bit more of a respected figure through out, but that does not change the disrespectfullnis of Beren in this scene so much for me. I see it more like a mark of the cruse of the Nauglamír (and the Silamril) that he begins to value his own thoughts above that of Melian.

§56b If "Dior waxed wroth" does not fit together with <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./> we have to remove the fisrt phrase since the second is later. The § was a kind of an experiment, if "Dior waxed wroth" and the answer "if you like to have a Silmaril go to Angband" would fit with the "no answer of TY. But it seemed it will not fit and thus we should go back to:
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§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] {restrains}restrained his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./>

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§57 & §58a ... RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Q30 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> ...
Is the normal way to read the passage not that all the object of the action was unwilling? I at least would think that Nimloth were really unwilling to leave her young twin-sons behind.
If we want scip the names I would suggest to takeQ30 (sorry, I made a mistake with the source info there) and name them only faithful servants:
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§57 & §58a ... RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, {Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome<Q30 faithful servants>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> ...
§58c TY provides the information that Nimloth was the driving force in all the later action (which is to be expected since Elwing was a child of only 4). I missed that point an thought that we were not told that Nimloth went to the havens at all. But now I think we have to change it, and I like your suggestion, but would change the order to:
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§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered <editorial addition along with Nimloth> in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to {her}them.> ...
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Old 12-08-2004, 11:35 AM   #12
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§51d laughed -> answered: But it was equally disrespectfull for Beren to laughed at his mother in law in TN than it is in our version. So why should we change it? Okay, Melain is now a bit more of a respected figure through out, but that does not change the disrespectfullness of Beren in this scene so much for me. I see it more like a mark of the curse of the Nauglamír (and the Silamril) that he begins to value his own thoughts above that of Melian.
It can still be disrespectful but not in a way to diminish the character of Beren. I just don't think that the character of Beren would laugh at Melian, the curse of the gold and the Silmaril would in fact remain because of the fact that he chose to keep it against her advice.

Quote:
§56b If "Dior waxed wroth" does not fit together with <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./> we have to remove the fisrt phrase since the second is later. The § was a kind of an experiment, if "Dior waxed wroth" and the answer "if you like to have a Silmaril go to Angband" would fit with the "no answer of TY. But it seemed it will not fit and thus we should go back to:
I'm not so sure about that. I think that we can have it both ways:
Quote:
§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY Maedhros restrain{s}[ed] his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren {the Onehanded} won {with his hand} from {the [?jaws] of Melko}[Morgoth] {– ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>[b]RD-EX-86 <TY [Thus Curufin] {Dior} returned {no /clear/}[with that] answer /to their claim./}>
I'm ok with the other two alterations.
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:47 PM   #13
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§58b Now you did missunderstand me. If "Dior waxed worth" does verbid us to interpret the rest of the conversion in a way that Dior could let the claim of the Feanorians unanswered, then we cannot use it as an expansion of our basic text. That is a fact, since the bsic text states, based on TY, that Dior returned no answer.

§51d Why does it diminishe the charachter of Beren when he laughs in such a situation?

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Old 01-13-2005, 06:34 AM   #14
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Following the fact that Melian did leave Menegroth before the attack of the Dwarves she did no longer talk to Naugladur and thus he can clearly not remeber any words of her. Thus we have to change §48 to:
Quote:
§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial edition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>
In addtion I found this in TY:
Quote:
503 … Now Curufin and Celegorm hearing of the sack of Menegroth ambushed the Dwarves at the fords of Ascar and defeated them; but the Dwarves cast the gold into the river, which was after named Rathloriel. …
With the commentary on that part by Christopher Tolkien:
Quote:
The ford at which the Dwarves were ambushed, not now itself named, is still over Ascar, not Gelion (see p. 347). The statement that the Dwarves 'cast the gold into the river' is at variance with the story told in the Sketch and the Quenta (where this was done by Beren and the Green-elves), and was perhaps a conscious return to the tale of The Nauglafring (II.237), in which the gold fell into the river with the bodies of the Dwarves who bore it, or else was cast into the water by Dwarves seeking to reach the banks.
If we accept that view, I think we should change our decision about RD-SL-27. If Tolkien wanted the picture of the hord casted into the river by the dying and flying dwarves we have to change the Ford at which the battle was lunched led over Ascar. Since the second Silmarillion map should not be dismissed so easiely, I study that map again: The dots that mark the Dwarf-Road end slightly before ths Mountians are reached. The Road cross the River Gelion at Sarn Athrad (both still so named in that map) a good deal north of the confluence of Gelion and Ascar. The Road runs than parallel to the Ascar until the dots end. At that point the Ascar bend slightly but stadiely to the north. If the road would have run in a straight line from the last dot to the place of Nogord it would have crossed the Ascar just south of its source. But we are talking about a mountain pass, thus it is more than unlikly that the road did run in straight line.
Conclusion: The map does not over an clear explaination for the problem at hand, but it does provide use with some freedom of interpretation, since not all features are drawn.
That Ascar was not crossable near to its confluence is witnessed by the tale of the People of Haleth and there stand against the orcs. They withdrawn into the angle between Gelion and Ascar and it is clear that both rivers were an effective protection.
Considering the passage from TY we need a ford over Ascar. If the mountian pass did follow the river (as is likely for such roads) it is possible to supposed that it did so on the south bank. If the road did bend south at the point were the dots end, it would have crossed the river a bit further from its source.
After that long winding discussion I will know give an alternative text for some § that is soppossed to follow TY by placing the fight at the Ford over Ascar. Since the names discussed earlier were clearly meant to be the ford over Gelion [Duin Daer] I have not taken them for the Ford of Ascar. Thus the Ford of the ambush is unnamed.
Quote:
§43b (§316) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Daer], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. <editorial addition And further on that road forded the River Ascar.> {This ford}These fords the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes {and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}. RD-EX-68<Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien>.



§46b (§319) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows. ‘Yet,’ said Beren, ‘speed is that which now we need the most’; and certain Elves at his bidding fared like deer before him, seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <Sil77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of [Thingol]{Tinwelint, and Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}.>

§46c (§320) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, feigning to be an Elf of Artanor escaped from bondage in their host. Now therefore they entreated him well, and he was sent back to Beren that their captain might ............ his words, and albeit Beren marvelled at his [?cowardly]......’ and downward glance it seemed to him that he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing}Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Ascar] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod} the{ Stony} Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Ascar] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means can be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor is it overeasy here. Never would Naugladur have taken that way had he knowledge of Beren - yet blinded by the spell and the dazzling gold he feared nought either within or without his host, and he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>

§46d (§321) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Ascar], and their array was thus: first a number of unladen Dwarves most fully armed, and amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[the Ford of the Ascar] on their day of doom.>

§46e (§322) <TN Morn was it when they reached the hither bank and high noon saw them yet passing in long-strung lines and wading slowly the shallow places of the swift-running stream. Here doth it widen out and fare down narrow channels filled with boulders atween long spits of shingle and stones less great. Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and }prepare to get him over, for the armed host of the vanguard had climbed already the further bank, and it was great and sheer and thick with trees, and the bearers of the gold were some already stepped thereon and some amidmost of the stream, but the armed men of the rear were resting awhile.>

§46f (§323) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}that was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the slender arrows of the Eldar that err not neither doth the wind bear them aside, and lo, from every tree and boulder do the brown Elves and the green spring suddenly and loose unceasingly from full quivers. Then was there a panic and a noise in the host of Naugladur, and those that waded in the ford cast their golden burdens in the waters and sought affrighted to either bank, but many were stricken with those pitiless darts and fell with their gold into the currents of the {Aros}[Ascar], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>

§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they}[the Dwarves] climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed <editorial change and entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony }Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>, In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were {in the midst of their passage,} laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled>.

§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for} behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial addition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature among the {Eldar}[Edain], albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>



§50 (§327) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Man], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ and grasping his sword he dealt a mighty blow and cried: ‘Take here thy bane, O stripling of the woods,’ and in that moment his foot found a jagged stone and he stumbled forward, but Beren slipped aside from that blow and catching at his beard his hand found the carcanet of gold, and therewith he swung Naugladur suddenly off his feet upon his face: and Naugladur's sword was shaken from his grasp, but Beren seized it and slew him therewith, for he said: ‘I will not, sully my bright blade with thy dark blood, since there is no need.’ But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].>

§51a (§328) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].>

§51b (§329) RD-EX-79 <TN But the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of that {Stony }Ford that none seek the treasure that it guards nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream at that enchanted place.



§51f (§333) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure {they had}[was] drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and [they] named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.}<movedfrom above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
RD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Lúthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Lúthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}
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Old 01-18-2005, 11:19 AM   #15
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I'm not sure when I'll get time to finish looking over this section, so I'll post the comments on what I've reviewed so far.

§43a (§27)
Quote:
woods about the River {Gelion}[Duin Dear]
Dear > Daer here and throughout.

I wonder if we should replace "River Gelion" with "Duin Daer" rather than with "River Duin Daer" - "Duin" means "River", and seems to be redundant.

RD-EX-66
Quote:
<Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>
As usual, I'm a bit hesitant about using the '77. Is there not a primary text that can serve the same purpose? I will look.

In any case, I don't understand the deletion of "yet".

RD-EX-67
Elfin > Elven

§43b (§28)
Quote:
To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear]
I think "is" should become "was" in keeping with our general removal of the historical present.

RD-EX-68
I don't see why we need to use this from the '77 if we immediately afterward have Melian bring them the news.

RD-EX-70
The changes here are fairly liberal but I think they work. One problem is:

Quote:
and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and {the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.’>
This is awkward. I would make it either:

Quote:
and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs} [the Dwarves]; but Thingol is slain.’>
or

Quote:
and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs}; but Thingol is slain.’>
§45 & §46a (§30)
Quote:
<TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale {of Huan} dry their eyes.
A very minor point - why not change "Huan" to "Melian" here and thus stay closer to the text?

§46b (§31)
Quote:
<TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows.
This leaves an awkward sentence. I would make it:

Quote:
<TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those {myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills the {host}[small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed] great [enough to him], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows.
RD-EX-72
Quote:
§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord
This doesn't make sense to me. Who fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk? As the text stands, the 'he' seems to refer to Naugladur, which is absurd. In fact, with the removal of Ufedhin I think we must also lose the idea that anyone from Naugladur's group joined with Beren's folk and gave them information. Rather, the rangers simply espied the Dwarves or gained knowledge of them through woodcraft. I would say:

Quote:
§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that he fell in with} And the rangers of Beren's folk{, and these gaining from him} [gained] {sure} knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, [and] they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord
It's perhaps a bit risky since I've altered the grammatical function of "the rangers of Beren's folk", but I think it's okay.

RD-EX-73
Quote:
{ No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Duin Dear] at a certain time he turned aside,
I would delete "at a certain time" since he no longer gets specific indormation from Ufedhin.

RD-EX-74
I would delete the historical present here as well.

§46f (§35)
Quote:
<TN Suddenly {is} was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}[that was] the horn of Beren
A minor point, but I would make it:

Quote:
<TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and it {is} [was] the horn of Beren
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Old 01-19-2005, 05:01 AM   #16
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Dear > Daer: That systematic typo again. I will try better for the next version.

River Gelion -> Duin Daer: Agreed. I did not hink about it and did just replace Gelion by Duin Daer, but it is beter to skip River in fornt of Duin.

RD-EX-66:
What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see).

Deletion of "yet": I understood it as a kind of repeating, since we had already mention that Beren and Lúthien were "in that time of respite which Lúthien had won" in the sentence before. But that is a weak argument and if you think the yet should not be deleted we will take in back in.

RD-EX-68: Okay, I can see your point. As it is we have no other source for this bit. So it must go.

RD-EX-70: In view of TN, Note 13 I thought that it might even have be the orginal reading of the text.
I agree that the sentence would read better with your suggestions. But the dwarves are normaly no terror. (If we would have used the info of the Dwarve-host crossing Athrad Daer, I would have accepted "the terror of the dwarves". ) Could we take:
Quote:
... and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’
RD-EX-72:
Okay, it seems my interpretation of the edited sentence was to much forced if it come across to you in such a way. Your emendations lock good. we should take them.

All changes not mention I agree with and willtake them up for the next version if nobody speaks up against them.

Some of the changes will come up again in the alternative § given in posts in this thread, but if we will take these alternatives, I will try to work the changes into them.

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Old 01-19-2005, 08:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
RD-EX-66:
What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see).
I think that it would be a shame not to use that passage, but when I looked in the Problem of Ros, I was unable to find it. Can you point it to me?

Quote:
... and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’
I think that it is too great a change. I would rather like:
Quote:
‘Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs;} but Thingol is slain.’
Quote:
That Ascar was not crossable near to its confluence is witnessed by the tale of the People of Haleth and there stand against the orcs. They withdrawn into the angle between Gelion and Ascar and it is clear that both rivers were an effective protection.
Considering the passage from TY we need a ford over Ascar. If the mountian pass did follow the river (as is likely for such roads) it is possible to supposed that it did so on the south bank. If the road did bend south at the point were the dots end, it would have crossed the river a bit further from its source.
After that long winding discussion I will know give an alternative text for some § that is soppossed to follow TY by placing the fight at the Ford over Ascar. Since the names discussed earlier were clearly meant to be the ford over Gelion [Duin Daer] I have not taken them for the Ford of Ascar. Thus the Ford of the ambush is unnamed.
I think that you maybe right about this.
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Old 01-20-2005, 10:48 AM   #18
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RD-EX-66:
What was driven from the Problem of Ros is the reference to Dior's dwelling. It is in §6 of that text, page 369. Lock especialy in note 9 to that text.

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Old 01-22-2005, 01:32 PM   #19
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros".
It is? The name Lanthir Lamath is given in note 9 to the text (and in the Shibboleth), and it is here that we find an explanation for the name "Elwing" - but that they dwelt on Tol Galen in the river Adurant is not told here. It must derive from something, but I cannot think what. If it can be found, we ought to use the original text rather than QS77. Also, we should follow the exact words of "Ros" rather than Christopher's reformulation. Rather than:

Quote:
<Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>
I would say:

Quote:
<Sil77 And [a]t that time Beren and Lúthien yet dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel[,]> <Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.> <QS77 The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray.> <Ros For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall beside {his} her father's house.
RD-EX-70

I would go with Maedhros's suggestion.


The continuation of my comments:

RD-EX-75

I don't think I understand the change of "as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed" to "as the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank".

RD-EX-76

Quote:
<TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host{.}[ were slain,]
I don't see the need to delete "and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain". True, we are not told of any Dwarvish chiefs other than Naugladur. But this is just as true of the original TN. Surely we can suppose that there were lesser Dwarvish leaders under Naugladur, as indeed we assert in the very next sentence.

RD-EX-78

I'm sorry to say I think this change goes too far. We don't know that the bow Beren had here was the Bow of Bregor, nor that it was at this point that he gave it to Dior. We simply can't state it, I'm afraid.

§49 (§38)
Quote:
and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away {amid elfin laughter},
I suppose the rationale here is that in the later legendarium, the Elves would not laugh here. But I don't know that that's true.

§50 (§39)
Quote:
I will slay this {Elf}[Men]
Should be "Man".

RD-EX-79
Quote:
<TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still
We must delete "and so do still" in view of the sinking of Beleriand.

RD-EX-81
Quote:
of Berens return Melain
Two typos: should be ". . . of Beren's return Melian . . .".

§ 51e (§44)
Quote:
Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the elfin gladness of the forest
"elfin" > "Elven"

§51f (§45)

Quote:
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained
Didn't we say already that Ascar was renamed Rathloriel? We should not say it twice.

RD-EX-83
Quote:
<TN Yet{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath.
We have just said that the deathless oath was waked from sleep - so I think we must change the prelminary "Yet" here. Perhaps:

Quote:
<TN {yet is it to tell that} For bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath.
RD-EX-84
Quote:
<TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes
Elwing's age is unclear in TN, but in the later chronology she is 3 or 4 at this point; in view of this and the fact that there is no later reference (as far as I recall) to her wearing the Nauglamir during this period, I think we should drop the reference.

RD-EX-85
Quote:
and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>
I don't understand this change.

RD-SL-32.5
Quote:
<TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames} inflamed the brethren,>
It sounds awkward to repeat "brethren" after "Then went Curufin unto his brethren". I would say:

Quote:
]<TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames} inflamed {the brethren} them,>
Quote:
and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk
This is curious. I was about to say that we must change "first" to "second", but then I realized that of course the kin-slaying at Alqualonde was already present in the Lost Tales. Perhaps the first kin-slaying is not deemed "premeditated"? I suppose we must keep the text as it is, but it is rather strange.

Quote:
RD-SL-33 {Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also {Celegorn}[Celegorm] (by Dior's hand)
We must either change the comma after "slain" to a semicolon or edit the text of TY. I would go with the former.

RD-EX-92

Quote:
<Sil77 Of this Maedhros later indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>
Why have we added "later"?

Quote:
<TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely
In TN, Auredhir was slain and Elwing escaped, so this was true. But now the fate of her brothers is not known for sure, so we cannot know that naught was left of the seed of Beren save Elwing.

Quote:
<TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/>
It seems unlikely that this is the rumour that they heard, since this is listed under 506-507 and the exiles of Gondolin did not reach Sirion until 511 - where indeed they found Elwing's people already. The meaning of "rumour" is unclear, and it may be, as Christopher interprets it, a reference to the people of Gondolin. But that is far from clear, and if so it represents a change in the story. I would delete the whole phrase and simply say:

Quote:
And in time they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] . . .
RD-EX-95
Quote:
And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand
If we are changing "lamp of Faerie" to "lamp of Feanor" should we not change "fairie" or "faerie" at all occurrences to "Elves" or something else?

I still need to review the arguments relating to RD-SL-27 before I have anything to say about that.
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Old 01-22-2005, 05:44 PM   #20
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RD-EX-66:
I we lock for the source of the home of Beren and Lúthien on Tal Galen. The suggestion about the original text is good.

RD-EX-70: Agreed.

RD-EX-75: Since I wanted the Ents involved in the fight nearer to the ford, to make the reduced numbers of Greenelves more possible and so to follow the Letter more closly than Christopher Tolkien had done. Thus I toke in stead of the wood benath Mount Dolmed the woded further shore of the river which is mention before.

RD-EX-76: Agreed, we will hold the slain chiefes as I did in my alternate version.

RD-EX-78: Well, yes it is fare fetched. But on the other hand, way shouldn't he use that bow? But for the sake of safty we will scip that change.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
The statment goes back to a stage when the fight on the further shore was discribed as in TN. There the flying Dwarves were discribed in detail. And it was especialy stated that he lock of the flying Dwarves filled the Elves with mirth. Do we consider to hold that motiv, or are we just going not to skip the pure statment that the elves laughed. And if the later isn't that a slight change of meaning? For the former I would suggest to add the description:
Quote:
§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled, and a noise of clear laughter echoed from the Elves thereat, and they forebore to shoot more, for the illshapen figures of the Dwarves as they fled, their white beards tornby the wind, filled them with mirth.>

§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

§49 (§326) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace of wonder, that he be suffered to go unharmed; but Beren said: ‘Nay, that may I still take when thou art slain,’ and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away amid {elfin}[elven] laughter, and so Beren came upon Naugladur, slayer of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]. ...
RD-EX-79: Nice catch. But we should delet also the "for ever" in the first sentence, thus we will get:
Quote:
§51b (§329) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on{ for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream[of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.
§51e:
Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.

§51f:
Yes we have mentioned the renaming in the version were the Elves drown the treassure activley (fight at the Ford over Duin Daer), but not so in the alternate version (fight at a Ford over Ascar).
If we take the first version i would suggest:
Quote:
§51f (§333) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river{ Ascar, and named it anew} Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} ...
RD-EX-83: Agreed.

RD-EX-84:
Agreed. Elwing is to young to wear the Nauglamir. But I would rather change the sentence to make it refer to Dior, which would agree to the earlier statment:
Quote:
§56a (§337) ... RD-EX-84 <TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and {Elwing his daughter}[he] bears it whitherso {she}[he] goes - but do you not forget, ...
RD-EX-85:
That change was discussed between me an Maedhros. In view of his reading of the passage, I think we must skip the complete last part (sad as it is):
Quote:
§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>
Thus solving the problemyou see.

RD-SL-32.5: Agreed.

"first premeditated war": Well, I did ever understand it with the emphasis on "premeditated", which made that kinslaying much worth than the first.

RD-SL-33, RD-EX-89:
I also like the change from comma to semicolon more than the second option.

RD-EX-92:
The later was added because the fight was not yet over, though I thought he would not search for the brethern while the weapons stil spoke. But the add was maybe in the wrong place. This would be better:[quote]§57 & §58a (§339) ... RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought later for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)>

§58c:
Thus you think we should make that sentence read thus:
Quote:
§58c (§341) RD-EX-94 <TN Now{ was naught left of the seed of Beren Ermabwed son of Egnor save} Elwing the Lovely{, and she} wandered <editorial addition along with Nimloth> in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>. ...
I agree on the reference to the Gondolindrim has to go. Your suggestion is good.

I also agree on "faries"-> "Elves"

Locking forward for your comments on RD-SL-27.

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Old 01-23-2005, 04:15 AM   #21
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RD-EX-66:
Tol-Galen is only twice mentioned in the HoME Series, and all these phrases are in the Quenta Silmarillion in HoME V. The first is a footnote to chapter 9: Of Beleriand and its Realms. In the discription of Ossiriand the footnote reffers to the name Adurant. It was later inserted and reads:
Quote:
And at a point nearly midway in its course the stream of Adurant divided and joined again, enclosing a fair island; and this was called Togalen, the Green Isle. There Beren and Lúthien dwelt after their return.
The second is in the conclusion of the chapter 15 The Quest of the Silmaril 3. It reads:
Quote:
It is said that Beren and Luthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; for taking up again their mortal form in Doriath, they went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger, and they passed beyond the rivers into Ossiriand, and abode there in the green isle, Tol-galen, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased. Therefore the Noldor afterwards called that land Gyrth-i-Guinar, the country of the Dead that Live, and no mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and whether the second span of his life was brief or long is not known to Elves or Men, for none saw Beren and Luthien leave the world or marked where at last their bodies lay.
Both will surely be used in their proper place. Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.

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Old 01-23-2005, 10:54 AM   #22
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RD-EX-66

Quote:
Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.
Yes - but considering that exactly the same information will be given twice elsewhere, and Tolkien didn't see a need to restate it at this point in the narrative, I don't see why we should. I would skip it.

RD-EX-75

Okay, this change seems to make sense now. Still, I would retain "they" instead of replacing it with "the Dwarves".

RD-EX-78

I agree, nothing necessitates that he was not using the Bow of Bregor at this point. But as you say it is far-fetched. What we would need is not the absence of evidence to the contrary but rather the presence of evidence for his use of the Bow of Bregor, which we don't have. So we must skip it.

§49
Well, I'm not sure whether to retain the Elven laughter or not. A case could be made that it's out of keeping with the later character of the Elves.

§51e:
Quote:
Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.
You're right - the capitalization was a mistake.

RD-EX-85

Sorry, I had neglected to reread the discussion that had already taken place between you and Maedhros. You propose:

Quote:
§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>
I would go with this, except that I don't see the need for the additions to the last sentence. It is clear from context that it is "to their claim" that he returns no answer - and considering that we have deleted his words precisely in order to follow the statement that he returned no answer, I don't see any reason to modify it with "clear".

RD-EX-79

I still don't see the need for "later". Maedhros does nothing more in the fight; and in any case, we don't specify when he makes his search.

RD-SL-27

This turns out to be a tricky issue. I think you are right that we should consider the second Silmarillion map here. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you regarding its interpretation. I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle. Moreover, it seems very unlikely that Tolkien would not draw the ford of Ascar on the map if such a ford not only existed but was also the site of this important battle.

So I would say that the second Silmarillion map cannot be considered to coincide with the TY version. What this leaves us with is the Lost Tales which put the battle at the ford of Aros (in a vague and unclear geography), the Sketch and the Quenta which put the battle at the stony ford over Gelion, and finally the second Silmarillion map and TY which are at variance, one putting the battle at the Fords of Ascar and the other suggesting that no such ford existed.

If either TY or the second Silmarillion map were clearly later than the other, then matters would be more clear. But they are both, as far as I can tell, from about 1951. We therefore have three possible explanations:

1. "Ascar" in TY is a mistake for "Gelion". This seems plausible at least, since despite the fact that the ford is over Gelion, the river Ascar is very closely associated with the story due to the casting of the gold into it and its renaming.

2. As unlikely as it seems, Tolkien intended the Ford of Ascar to be in the mountains, very close to the source of the river, and yet did not indicate this on the map.

3. Tolkien changed the story in between the second Silmarillion map and TY. In this case of course we cannot know which was the final conception without determining which of these texts came first.

In the absence of any further evidence concerning dates of composition, option 3 cannot enter into our consideration. That leaves us to decide between 1 and 2. To me, 1 seems far more likely - so I suppose in the end I am for keeping the battle at the ford over Duin Daer.
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Old 01-23-2005, 05:05 PM   #23
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RD-EX-66: Okay, I can live with that. In that case I think we should take than even more of Ros into consideration. Do you would agree to this version of the §?
Quote:
§43a (§315) TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand].> But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live{.} RD-EX-66<Sil77; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's<editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doritah. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchil.' He gave to his elder son the name Eluréd, that is said to have the same sigificance, but ended in the Bëorian word rêda 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name Elurín, but his daugther the name Elwing For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall by which his house was built. The word wing was Bëorina, meaning fine rain or the spray from fountains and waterfalls blown by a wind; but he joined this to Elvish el- 'star' rather than to the Bëorian, because it was more beautiful, and also went with the names ofher brothers: the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67<TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>
RD-EX-75: Agreed.

RD-EX-78: Done.

§49: I think the elfish laughter is out of place, but I understand your argument that we have no clear evidence against it. I would like to have Maedhros input to this.

§51e: So, are we to take "elven gladness" or "elvish gladness"?

RD-EX-85: Agreed. the addition of "clear" is know obsolet, and if you find "to their claim" not necessary, we will skip it.

RD-EX-79: Okay so we will skip the "later".

RD-SL-27: Isn't the development in TY in itself an efidence for a change in the story? I felt that it was so. In any case, the map is earlier, and was only reworked about 1951. Thus a missing incooperation of a changed placment of a battle-place is no hard fact. Eitherway, to become more sure of the timing of making of both sources is in order. I will research what can be learned about that.

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Old 01-24-2005, 12:08 PM   #24
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RD-SL-27:
What I found is not to much but here we go:
The map itself was old. But the Road was put in later. All changes made to the map are recorded, but they are in no way dated (which seems in many instances nearly impossible to do anyway). The only slight evidence that I could find is the name "Duin Dhaer" as a replacment of "Gelion" and "Rathmalad" for "Rathloriel". These changes were at least made in the same period as the similar changes in the TY Version D (Rathloriel -> Rathmallen). But that does only tell us that the map was still used at that time. It does not provide us with any evidence that the Dwarf-road shown represented Tolkien view at that time or that it was drawn in at that time. But from what can be seen in the Chapter "Maeglin" of HoME XI he still found the representation of the Dwarf-Road east of Gelion fitting, since he didn't change it when he put the way of Eöl from Nogord to Nan Elmoth and beyond in a copy of the map. The “Maeglin” story was worked at very lat in Tolkien’s live about 1970. We are not told if the line of red dots that represented the way of Eöl started in Nogrod, it is just said that, “this red dotted line continues straight on across square G13 to Sarn Athrad, and then coincides with the Dwarf-Road up into the mountains, already present in the primary map.”
Christopher Tolkien does also not give as an good dating for TY D. He suggested that it was may be contemporary with JRR Tolkiens work on the ‘Turin-Saga’ which would be slightly later then the rest of the TY which Aiwendil dated correctly in 1951-2. But the change of the battle-place to a ford of Ascar was represented already in TY C. From TY B and TY A I got the impression that even their the Ford was over Ascar, because the battle is “at Rath-loriel”.

Thus we are still no further in our decision.

But the map does provide us with a good reason for Tolkiens change: The distance between the Ford over Gelion and the river Ascar is about 4.75 miles or 7.6 kilometres. That would be a walk of about 1.5 hours on a road, but to make that cross country laden with a heavy burden would take considerably longer. If Beren had (as we assume) only a small number of Greenelves we must ask our self how he transported the Hoard to the river Ascar to drown it.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle.
I agree that the map does not suggest a crossing of the dwarf-road with Ascar and that if such crossing is to postulated it must be in the foothills and near to the source.
But I don’t see that this would contradict the accounts of the Battle. The only account that is detailed enough to be in anyway contradicted is TN. But even in that case I don’t see a heavy contradiction. The Pass that the road approached is described as “high pass”. Thus the Ascar could be a river spring-fed by a glacier. Anyway it could be a fast and deep stream already near to its source and a heavy obstacle for any crossing in all times of the year. A Ford build from shingle-isles and with a high and step bank on the one side does not strike me as impossible for a short river (not more then 75 miles) in the mountains that swelled Gelion in a way that it was uncross able south of the confluence.

So I am still for your option 2

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Old 01-24-2005, 08:48 PM   #25
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RD-EX-66

I wonder how much of Ros we are justified in putting in here. The sudden etymological discussion certainly interrupts the narrative and sounds out of place. But are we to consider this a problem? I suppose I could go with your suggestion.


RD-SL-72

It still seems to me very plausible that "Ascar" was a mere slip of the pen. Such a change would, I still feel, have necessitated some changes to the geography. I really doubt that the the ford would be as close to Nogrod as the map suggests it would need to be. But of course such a change in geography is quite possible. If Ascar turned northeastward a little more quickly, or if Nogrod were just slightly further south, the river might need to be forded well before the mountains.

So I am in doubt. Maedhros, what do you think?
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Old 01-25-2005, 05:36 AM   #26
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As it seems their are only 3 points left unresolved in the above discussion:

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it.

(If we will in the end execlued both laughings, it seems we will get a very serious tale.)

RD-SL-27:
Aiwendil feels more save with the fight at the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] and a transportation of the Hoard; and I support the fight at the Ford over Ascar that isn't mentioned any where else than in TY.
To this complex I like to put even a further streching: If the Ford over Ascar is postulated for the solution of this complex, than an argument could be made that the name of Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was transfered to that Ford and that therefore the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] recieved the new name Athrad Daer. (Possible since the name was developed later while working on the Maeglin story.)

One further point need to be discussed: Rathloriel was changed on the map to Rathmalad and in TY to Rathmallen. Should we adopt one of these changes? And if so which one? Also if we change the name, is then the translation Golden-Bed still valid? So do we skip it or can we make an updated one?
Since Rathmalad is only hastily penciled and not entirly clear, I would go with Rathmallen which is at least fairly readable and thus in my view more reliable. But I have no clou how this would translat into english.

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Old 01-25-2005, 07:49 AM   #27
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Findegil and Aiwendil:
You may have noticed that I have not posted much in the last few weeks, unfortunately this is due because my grandmother has been very ill and alas she has died yesterday.
If you will give me sometime to do somethings that I need to arrange, hopefully I can give my opinions shortly.
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:02 AM   #28
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I'm very sorry to hear about your loss, Maedhros. You have my sincere sympathy. Please take all the time you need - don't feel that this project is yet another pressure to deal with.

Findegil: About Rathmalad/Rathmallen. I think that at least this point is easy enough to deal with; the translation should be unchanged. the LOR- stem, I believe, refers to "golden" as a colour of light (as in "Laurelin"). The MAL- stem refers to "golden" meaning "of or relating to the metal gold".

I'm a little unsure whether Rathmalad or Rathmallen would be preferrable to adopt, but you make a good case for Rathmallen.
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:08 PM   #29
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Thanks Aiwendil.

Now regarding the RD-SL-27 issue:
Let me quote the following:
From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta
Quote:
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, near to its joining with Duilwen7 that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named Sarn-athra,8 the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes,9 and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host. But Beren took the Nauglafring,10 the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathlorion,
The interesting thing to note here is that at first, the battle in the Ford is across the River Ascar and that the treasure was drowned in that same River. Then JRRT changed the first mention of Ascar to Gelion. Thus we have that the battle took place in the Ford across Gelion and the treasure was drowned in another River called Ascar.
I find it very interesting the fact that JRRT would only change his narrative in the way that at first both of these events ocurred in the same river, and then the fight occurred in one and the drowning in the other. My personal opinion is that JRRT intended to have both things occurred in the same river, but that he forgot to make the second change. CT has another opinion in his Commentary.
In the Tale of Years it is said that the battle took place across the River Ascar as in the Original version of chapter 14 of the Quenta.
I think that it is a slip in the part of JRRT and that he meant rather Gelion.
It is funny but my personal preference is to have the fight as Findegil points out (why take that whole treasure to drown in another river?) but in the end I have to side with CT that JRRT meant that the fight took place in Gelion and the drowning took place in Ascar.

Quote:
§49 "the elfin laughter":
Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion.
I don't see the need for it's exclusion. Elves laughing at the dwarves at that situation do not seem out of character from them. After all they were pretty brave in Menegroth and then lost their valour.

Quote:
§51d laughed -> answered:
Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it.
I guess that I can make the little point that in the Tale, Beren was an Elf and not a Man. To me, the later Beren is a noble character who would not disrespect a maiar like Melian.
Aiwendil, what do you think?
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Old 01-27-2005, 04:06 AM   #30
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First let me express my sincere condolences to you, Maédhros.


RD-SL-27:
In Q30 Tolkien named the Great River of East-Beleriand (latest name Duin Daer) at first Ascar. Then when he found that the first tributary of that river should have that name he changed the name to Flend and later to Gelion.
With the geography that underlaies Q30 I would not have any problem. The Ford was directly south of the confluence of Flend [Duin Daer] and Ascar. Thus a hoard drowned at that ford would have been drowned figuratively in both rivers. Such a ford as Sarn Athrad in the position of Q30 would have been builded out of the load of stones carried by Ascar (that were droped when with the confluence the current became less strong). That would have provided a good reason to rename the river Ascar to Rathlorion -> Rathloriel -> Rathmallen, since the implication of the gold in the ford would hve been that Ascar did carry that gold and laied it down at the confluence.
But the geography changed. The Ford over Duin Daer is now clearly a few miles north of the confluence. If the Battle is still at that Ford and the hoard is to be drowned in Ascar the elves must activly transport it.
In TY we do not have a clear picture of the geography involved. But it can be seen clearly that JRR Tolkien changed the story. The "slip of the pen" argument does not work for me. In no Versions of TY the River Gelion is even mentioned and any way Gelion was never the renamed River. That was in fact the tributary river ever since the fight was moved away from Aros.

I think that JRR Tolkien changed the fight to be at a Ford over Ascar exactly because he wanted to aviod that transport and any activity of the Elves with the hoard. In my view we could only hold the fight at the ford over Duin Daer when we label the changed that occoured in TY as "unworkable outline", but it does not seem to be, for me at least.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Okay, if you both feel that eves laughin at the flying dwarves is fine we will take them in from both occurences.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Are you suggesting that for an Elf it would not have been disrespectfull to laugh at Melians warning? That only would be true for me if I would lock at Elves like the group that welcomed Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin & Co. in Rivendell in the Hobbit. But even then, Beren talks here with his mother in law and she is giving him advise in a grave matter concerning his beloved. And equally if he is an Elf or an Adan Melian is fare above him in wisdom, in rank and in expirence. Thus it was disrespectfull anyway. And we have no hint that JRR Tolkien planed to change it. On the conteray the outcome of the conversation never changed: Beren kept the Nauglamír against Melians advice.

Rathloriel -> Rathmalad or Rathmallen:
Rathmallen, the Golden Bed, it will become in the next version of the text.

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Old 01-27-2005, 11:10 AM   #31
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RD-SL-27

The second Silmarillion map does suggest that the ford is a few miles north of the confluence. However, as Findegil noted:

Quote:
The map itself was old. But the Road was put in later. All changes made to the map are recorded, but they are in no way dated (which seems in many instances nearly impossible to do anyway). The only slight evidence that I could find is the name "Duin Dhaer" as a replacment of "Gelion" and "Rathmalad" for "Rathloriel". These changes were at least made in the same period as the similar changes in the TY Version D (Rathloriel -> Rathmallen). But that does only tell us that the map was still used at that time. It does not provide us with any evidence that the Dwarf-road shown represented Tolkien view at that time or that it was drawn in at that time.
If we doubt the map sufficiently to suppose that there is an unindicated and improbable continuation of the road into the mountains the crosses Ascar near its source, then surely we can also doubt the distance it gives between the ford and the confluence of the rivers. We are dealing with small distances on a large-scale map. If the dwarf road were drawn just a bit further south then the apparent distance of a few miles would evaporate, and there would be no difficulty in believing that the treasure was drowned in Ascar. And indeed, the fact that the road runs so perfectly parallel to the river suggests that it is in fact following the river on its north side, and is perhaps a shade closer than the map literally indicates.

So I do not think that there is necessarily a problem with the ford being over Duin Daer and the gold ending up in Ascar - first of all because the map may exaggerate the short distance between the Ascar and the road, and second because even if the distance as drawn on the map is taken to be several miles, it's possible that the map doesn't represent Tolkien's final intention. Indeed, if Tolkien did see a problem with the gold being transported from the ford to Ascar, by far the easier solution would have been simply to bring the ford closer to the confluence.

It seems to me, then, much more natural to suppose that the ford remained over Duin Daer and that "Ascar" in TY was a slip. But I admit that this depends on two suppositions: 1. that the ford is closer to the confluence than the map indicates; 2. that "ford of Ascar" was a mistake.

I am still not happy with either alternative, then. The relevant principle here is:

Quote:
5. Information in sources of lower level priority is to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.
And, despite the fact that I strongly suspect that the TY reference is a "slip of the pen", I cannot convince myself that this can be "reasonably demonstrated" (which is, however, a necessarily vague criterion).

So my dilemma is that I am inclined to think that the ford remained over Duin Daer, but that I am also inclined to view our principles as supporting the change to Ascar.

I definitely need to consider this further.

Quote:
§51d laughed -> answered:
I agree with Findegil here; if it is out of character for an Adan to laugh at Melian, it is surely also out of character for an Elf. I do think that there is a general change in tone after the Lost Tales, and in fact I suspect that if Tolkien had re-written the story in the '50s, he would not have had Beren laugh. However - that is not justification for our exclusion of it. We do not really have any hard evidence against the laughter.
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Old 01-28-2005, 07:02 PM   #32
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First some remarks on the later geography: I do not think that the drawing of the road is so much in error that the Ford over Duin Daer would be directly north the confluence. As the reason for that I can only put forward the story of the Folk of Haleth. But I must admiss that only a small distance is needed to provide enough space for a stockard. On the other hand, if we take the map in such a liberal way than a Ford over Ascar in the foothills of the mountians is even more possible.

Let me add a further remark on the changed geography: In the Maeglin chapter we get the follwing passage:
Quote:
From Elmoth to Gelion the land was, north of the Andram and the Falls below the last Ford over Gelion (8)(just above the inflow of the River Ascar from the Mountains), mostly rolling plain, with large regions of big trees without thickets. There were several beaten tracks made originally by Dwarves from Belegost and Nogrod, the best (most used and widest) being from the Little Ford past the north of Elmoth and to the Ford of Aros, it crossed the Bridge of Esgalduin but went no further for, if the Dwarves wished to visit Menegroth

This text then becomes altogether illegible. ...

Note (8) reads: The Falls in Gelion below Sarn Athrad have not been referred to before, and indeed in QS Chapter 9 Of BEleriand and its Realms (V.262-3, §113; The Silmarillion p.122) their existence is denied: 'Gelion had neither fall nor rapids throughout his course'.
That means that geography had realy changed. We do not known, if the "discovery" of the Falls in the course of Gelion, where the reason for the new placeing of the Ford (some way north of the confluence instad of directly south of it). But I think that this at least possible if not likely.
For me, this does also cast some doubt on the discription of the Ford in TN. But I have not enough knowledge about this part of hydro-geography to come up with an argument for my doubts.


Now to the slip of the pen: I will try to add some arguments against that. In my last post I did make my reasons rejecting that idea not very clear.
AB2 makes not clear over which river the Ford Sarn Athrad lead, but the gold is cast into the river Ascar which than renamed Rathloriel. The temporary scripts make clear that Sarn Athrad was over Gelion and the Elves activley cast the gold in the river Ascar. All 4 version of TY are clearly reformulated. In A the only name given is the new name for the river Rathloriel, but it is at this river were the battle ocourse. In TY B the ford is named Sarn Athrad and led over Rathloriel. In C and in D the Ford is over Ascar and the Dwarves cast the gold them self into that river and that river is renamed to Rathloriel.

I would agree to a possible slip of the pen in the very short version TY A, but if that is the case then the following versions worked on these failure (if a failure it was) in a kind development that I can not lock at as unconsicous. Thus if a slip of the pen it was in A, it is no longer in TY C and D at least.

That is what I can put forward in the Moment. It might be good if you would give your reason for suspecting that all the versions of TY were a case of repeated slip of the pen.

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Last edited by Findegil; 01-31-2005 at 04:48 AM. Reason: Just a typo.
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:35 PM   #33
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I will try and make my point again.

First, we have in the Quenta that for a brief time, the place where the battle took place and where the treasure was drowned was the same River. (Ascar)
Then, there is a change in which the battle took place in the ford over the River Gelion but it was drowned in the River Ascar.

Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?
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Old 01-30-2005, 05:57 PM   #34
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I think I have stumbled upon a further complication.

TY B has the curious:

Quote:
Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel
If this is to be believed, then at this stage we have not the story that is being proposed for our use; rather, the battle remains at Sarn-athrad, but Sarn-athrad becomes a ford over Rath-loriel/Ascar.

In C and D the battle is at "the fords of Ascar". It is not made clear whether the ford described is Sarn-athrad or not.

But by the late work on "Maeglin", Sarn Athrad (which there becomes Harathrad and then Athrad Daer) is again over Gelion.

I had not before observed that in B it is not only the position of the battle that changes but in fact the position of Sarn Athrad - and that this change was certainly temporary, as seen in "Maeglin".

This raises for me the question of whether TY C and D in fact represent a change from B or not. If not, then they refer to Ascar not because, as we have supposed, there is now another ford over that river, at which the battle now takes place, but rather because at this stage Sarn Athrad was a ford over Ascar, not Gelion, and the battle remained at Sarn Athrad. Alternatively, one could suppose that C represents a further stage of development from B, with the name "Sarn Athrad" transferred back to the ford over Gelion but the battle kept at the (now unnamed) ford over Ascar. Or one could suppose that Ascar in all these TY versions is a mistake (which I still think is a possibility, though I admit it may be unlikely).

Suppose we discount the possibility that it is a mistake. We are left with the two possibilities:

1. The story underlying TY C is the same as that in B: Sarn-athrad is now a ford over Ascar.

2. The story has changed so that Sarn-athrad is over Gelion and the battle at another ford, over Ascar.

Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer.

Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?
So you would not follow letter 247, which returns the role to Beren? I see no reason to think that the story in this letter necessitates the placing of the ford at any particulary place.
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Old 01-30-2005, 08:26 PM   #35
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So you would not follow letter 247, which returns the role to Beren? I see no reason to think that the story in this letter necessitates the placing of the ford at any particulary place.
I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.

My point was that because Tolkien in that letter changed the rôle of Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren, is it reliable to consider that the battle between the dwarves and Beren and Co. would be in a ford over the River Ascar. If one part of the note was changed, does that make the other part dubious?

Then again, I think that you have made a fine point with:
Quote:
Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer.
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Old 01-31-2005, 06:13 AM   #36
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The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26. And the more I think about it the more I am inclined to feel that this is the way to go.

As Aiwendil did in his post I will put forward my view of the textual development. This is clearly a subjektive view and can be in error in some places, but I hope it will give some insight into my arguments:
The situation that I start my lock with is represented in Q30:
The River Gelion had no falls or rapids.
The Ford named Sarn Athrad was directly south of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.
The Battle took place at Sarn Athrad.
The gold was cast either actively by the Elves into Ascar (near at hand) or by the dwarves into the Ford over the joined waters of Ascar and Gelion. ( I think that Tolkien meant the second option and wrote Ascar here more figuratively.)

Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion. (I think that in these geographic development the falls of Gelion were introduced, but that can not be demonstrated.)
In view of this the casting of the Gold into Ascar as described in Q30 would become an active deed of the Elves.
That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion. The House of Bëor removed to Estolad by the biding of Felagund and the House of Marach followed them, but the House of Haleth was driven out of Ossiriand by the Green-Elves.

When Tolkien now came to write TY he wanted to avoid the active role the Elves played in the drowning of the hoard. But he also still wanted the Gold to be cast into the River Ascar and not into Gelion, because Ascar was the River that would receive a new name in the course of that story. Thus he changed the place of the battle to be at a Ford over Ascar. (Such a Ford, as is demonstrated above, was anyway necessary.) This change underlies already the very compressed expression in TY A even if it is not made very explicit. That Ford over Ascar was named now Sarn Athrad as is more clearly seen in TY B, C and D in which Tolkien developed the story further by introducing Curufin and Celegrom. (I will not go into detail of that development since it is clearly rejected in Letter no. 247.)

The only further information we have is in the "Maeglin"-papers. There we are given the information that between the ford over Gelion and the confluence with Ascar is a Fall in the River of Gelion. The Name Sarn Athrad is found only three times in these papers: Once (uncorrected) in a note describing Eöls journey to Nogrod (label (ii) by Christopher Tolkien) and in two marginal notes to the unnamed Ford over Gelion in which we are told that the Ford should be renamed from Sarn Athrad to Athrad Daer, Harathrad or Athrad i-Negyth.
Since we see Tolkien here "thinking with the pen" I would interpret the mention of Sarn Athrad in note (ii) as a unconscious use of an long established but now outdated name for the Ford over Gelion. In the other places were he spoke about the Ford he did not name it and in the accompanying notes he developed a new name for the Ford over Gelion since Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was possibly no longer fitting for that Ford and was now used for the Ford over Ascar.

In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio. But anyway it is an very subjective interpretation. I hope it will bring some clearness for you about my view on the subject at least.

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Old 01-31-2005, 07:42 AM   #37
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.
But both Ascar and Gelion are counted among the seven rivers. I do not think that the reversion from Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren necessitates a reversion from Ascar back to Gelion.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26.
I had failed to notice the significance of this change earlier.

I have a few disagreements with your summary of the texts.

Quote:
Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.
I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence.

Quote:
That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion.
I am not so sure about this. Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass? Is it not possible that they came up into Ossiriand out of the southeast, and thus passed south of the mountains? Or, is it not possible that the pass came down north of Ascar and that the Edain crossed the river into Ossiriand (for in any case, Ascar must not be impassable for its whole length).

Quote:
In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio.
But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion.

It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar.
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Old 01-31-2005, 11:54 AM   #38
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence.
My asumption that the movement of the ford was necessary is based on the discription of the ford in TN. My feeling is that such a ford builded by isles of shingels with channels of not to deep water between them would be builded so near to a conflunece that it would make both rivers passable. But that is clearly only my oppinion and not a fact.

Posted by Aiwendil:
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Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass?
At least we know that they came over the mountains. From HoME XI; The Later Quenta Silmarillion; 14 Of the Coming of Men into the West:
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§1 ... But he [Felagund] wearied of the chase and passed on alone towards the Mountains of Ered-lindon that he saw shining afar; and taking the Dwarfe-road he crossed Gelion at the Ford of Sarn-athrad, and turining south over the upper streams of Ascar, he came into the north of Ossiriand.
§2 In a valley among the foothills of the Mountains, below the springs of Thalos, he saw lights in the evening, ...
§4 Now these were a part of the kindered and following of Bëor the Old, as he was afterwards called, a chieftain among Men. After many lives of Wandering out of the East he had led them at last over the Mountains, ...
...
§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away: and the Haladin, a people that speak the same tongue as we, are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are aslo Men of different speech, with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'
...
§13 Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came alos into Beleriand. First came the Haladin; but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir ... The next year, however Marach led his people over the Mountains; and they were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. And Marach hearing that the people of Bëor were dwelling in a green and fertil land, came down the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bëor.
Here at least it is clearly stated that the Folk of Bëor and Marach crossed the Mountains. And the Folk of Haleth "turned north", which means they had wandered form east to west so far and not from south to north through Ossirand.
Also we learn that the Ascar cold be crossed at least in its upper course. It is not stated but possible that in his southward movment Finrod still followed the Dwarf-road. A posible southward movment of the Edain after crossing the Mountian at the pass about Dolmed is possible but does not seem to be likley: The landscape of southern Thargelion seemd to be very similar to that of northern Ossiriand (as is to be expected), thus I can't find any good reason why all the Edain if they had used a pass that led them into Thargelion would have crossed Ascar. It is much more likley that they used a pass that led them down into Ossirand. It is trure that we do not know that they used the pass near Dolmed to which the Dwarf-road led. All I can bring forward against a second pass further south are only week arguments. Thus my assumption that they used the pass south of Dolmed "rests in the last resort on nothing more definte than the sound principle that where all is uncertain one's hypothesis must be simplified as fare as possible."(JRR Tolkien in "The Freswæl: Finn and Hengest)

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion.
I must say that I have no answer to this. That means it is possible. But I find it unlikley, which is only based on my feeling.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar.
Is it really so strange? Was not the change of Ascar to Flend in Q30 a bit of simillar kind?

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Old 02-01-2005, 07:01 AM   #39
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After a further day of thought and some reading, I will give in. Aiwendil made a good point with his argument that "Maeglin" could also represent a change back to the old story. What I found in addition was this detail from Q30:
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This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes ...
That clearly suggested that there were more than one pass over Ered Luin. Thus it is likley that at least one pass (that the Edain used) led into Ossirand, and it is still possible that the pass south of Dolmed led into Thargelion. Nevertheless many thanks to both of you for a good discussion on this point it had brought me to a much better understanding of the geography of Eastern-Beleriand and the journey of the Edain.

Thus at the long last we will take the battle to be at the ford named Athrad Daer which led over the Duin Daer and the Green-Elves will - implicit of course - transport the hoard and drown it in the River Ascar which is then renamed Rathmallen.

On small possible add I found while rereading what we have done:
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§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as they {climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5<TN , since {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly> until the most part broke and fled, and a noise of clear laughter echoed from the Elves thereat, and they forebore to shoot more, for the illshapen figures of the Dwarves as they fled, their white beards tornby the wind, filled them with mirth.>
Only RD-EX-77.5 is new. We did not use this earlier since their it was the rôle of the Ents to fight down the dwarves but it would fit here nicely as a better discription of the tactic of the Green-Elves.

Also I marked this point:
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§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...
I think with changed story "the staining of blood in the king's halls" is outdated. We should replace it by a some other phrase. What's about:
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§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's {halls}[death], ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...
Since Thingol is slain while he is caught by the necklace in some bushes the necklace would clearly be bloodstained by his death and possibly not only figurativly.

Otherwise I think we are done with this part of the Ruin of Doriath. The next part are the Wanderings of Húrin. I have provided a list of changes in the thread "The Ruin of Doritah - The Shadow Falls on Brethil".

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Old 02-01-2005, 10:45 AM   #40
Aiwendil
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After a further day of thought and some reading, I will give in.
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Nevertheless many thanks to both of you for a good discussion on this point it had brought me to a much better understanding of the geography of Eastern-Beleriand and the journey of the Edain.
Yes, this discussion has given me a much better understanding of the confusing issue of the Dwarf roads as well. It's funny how such an apparently minor point, not even noticed in our first discussions, can become one of the major difficulties.

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and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5<TN , since {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly
I like the addition, but I think it would be better to use substitute "for" for "since":

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and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5<TN , for {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly
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§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's {halls}[death], ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...
I wonder if it would be safer to follow the same course here as we did in Melian's warning to Thingol earlier - that is, simply remove the reference to the curse of the blood:

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§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold {and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's {halls}[death],} ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...
To me it seems a little forced to replace "halls" with "death"; also, in the original there is a strong symmetry between this warning and Melian's earlier warning to Thingol, which we would break if we handle them differently.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 02-06-2005 at 09:45 PM.
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