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Old 09-08-2015, 06:03 AM   #41
Findegil
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As I work through these text again I found some points missing:
Quote:
Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of E, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein Vala-00.3<Vq2 ; and they are therein>.
Even so Christopher Tolkien does not comment on this it seems that he skipt that half sentence editorially. I dont see a good reason for that and would reinstall it.
From the passage about Tulkas:
Quote:
He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend. Vala-04.5<LQ2 He has great love for {Fionwe, son [>} Enw, herald{]} of Manwe.> His spouse is Nessa, the sister of Orom, and she also is lithe and fleetfooted.
This was skipt by JRR Tolkien from LQ2 to Vq1, but in view of the passages taken from Sil77 about Enw, I think we should also restore this addition.
Quote:
Above all the horns of his host it was heard in the woods that Yavanna brought forth in Valinor; for there Orom would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor. Vala-05.2 {<Vq2 But the Valarma is not blown, and Nahar runs no more upon the Middle-earth since the change of the world and the waning of the Elves, whom he loved.>} The spouse of Orom is Vna, ...
Christopher Tolkien does not provide a reason why he removed that sentence, and we did not discuss it as fare as I could find. So my question is why shouldn't we reinstall it?

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Old 09-10-2015, 09:56 AM   #42
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Ok in everything, I think that the last sentence must be reinserted, it was written by Tolkien and as you said there's no reason to remove it.

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Old 09-18-2015, 02:38 AM   #43
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What about adding the Note on the "Language of the Valar" in the Valaquenta? I think it would be a nice addition.
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:06 AM   #44
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I would say yes it might be worth the effort.

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Old 09-08-2017, 06:33 PM   #45
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Thoughts

I have found a passage in the Note on the Language of the Valar that should be included. It is added into the last paragraph of the section Of the Valar.

Quote:
These are the names of the Valar and the Valier, and here is told in brief their likenesses, such as the Eldar beheld them in Aman. Vala-05.3 <Q&E Now the names that we have for the Valar or the Maiar, whether adapted from the Valarin or translated, are not right names but titles, referring to some function or character of the person; for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them. Save only in the case of Orom.> But fair and noble ...
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:35 PM   #46
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Nice find! I will take it up.

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Old 10-16-2017, 04:43 PM   #47
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BD-03 / Vala-07.2: In the discussion about chapter 1: Of the Beginig of Time Aiwendil supposed an addition from MT, Text VI. He himself speculated that it might batter fit in here. So I proposed these below given placement and editing. We agreed that the Valaquenta is the place for it. And that the editing should be discussed here.
Quote:
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. Vala-07.2 <MT, Text VI Melkor Vala-07.21{must be made}[was] far more powerfull in original nature Vala-07.22{ (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth')}. The greatest power under Eru Vala-07.23{(sc.} ; he was the greatest created power{)}.[Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth{ (p. 322)}: 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.] Vala-07.24{(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manw (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)} >But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:19 AM   #48
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It seems there is are a few points from the past 2+ years on this chapter that I have never responded to, so I’ll look at this now.

Vala-00.3: I agree we should include this phrase that Christopher Tolkien skipped.

Vala-04.5:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
This was skipt by JRR Tolkien from LQ2 to Vq1, but in view of the passages taken from Sil77 about Enw, I think we should also restore this addition.
I don’t understand this reasoning. First of all, I believe we decided not to take the addition to the ’77 about Eonwe’s prowess in arms. Moreover, I don’t see why that has any bearing on the sentence at hand. JRRT deleted this statement, and I don’t see a reason to reinstate it.

Vala-05.2: I agree that we should reinstate this phrase deleted by Christopher Tolkien.

Vala-05.3: I like this addition and don’t see any problems with it.

Vala-07.2: I agree that thisi s the best place for this, but I think a little bit more editing is needed to make it fit, since Tolkien was writing notes to himself here, not text intended to stand in a narrative. Perhaps:

Quote:
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. For he was Vala-07.2 <MT VI [t]he greatest power under Eru. {(sc. ; he was the greatest created power). [Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth (p. 322): 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.} {(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manw (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)}> But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...
What I’ve done is:

- Remove the note “Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature”. This is Tolkien’s note to himself about how he intends to change the character of Melkor; it means nothing within the tale.
- Remove the “sc. he was the greatest created power”, as this is just Tolkien’s explanatory note about what “the greatest power under Eru” means”
- Remove the footnote, which unless I misunderstand is Christopher Tolkien’s note.
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:01 PM   #49
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Vala-06: You are right, the discussion here ended with the removal of the phrase about Enw being the mighties in arms, so I missed to do that in my working copy. I corrected that now.

Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Enw, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else?

Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense.

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Old 10-19-2017, 06:20 PM   #50
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Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Enw, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else?
True, there are passages rejected by JRRT that we have nonetheless included, for various reasons, but we have (I think) done so rather sparingly. In this case, I don't see a pressing reason to second-guess Tolkien. And apart from the question of disregarding Tolkien's textual edits, one can ask the standard question: was this element merely omitted or was it rejected? I think it's likely the latter - indeed, I suspect that it might be the change from Fionwe son of Manwe to Eonwe herald of Manwe that led Tolkien to eliminate the special fondness of Tulkas for him.

Quote:
Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense.
OK, that's reasonable. I do think that the passage works better if the two phrases are reversed, though: "he was the greatest created power, the greatest power under Eru". But this may cross the line between permitted outline expansion and forbidden stylistic editing.
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