The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-06-2002, 08:17 PM   #1
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting Bad Uthwen vote

We have four options that I know of with regard to the replacement of the name Bad Uthwen.

1. Leave it as it is. This has the advantage of involving the least change (actually, no change) to Tolkien's actual words. The disadvantage is that Bad Uthwen may not be valid Sindarin.

2. Add a circumflex to the "a". This is a very minor change that updates Bad to the form found in the Etymologies. It is virtually certain that this word in the Etymologies supercedes the word found in BoLT. The main disadvantage is that the Uthwen situation has not been improved. I'm not sure if there is any direct evidence that Uthwen would have been dropped, though. There is also some possibility that circumflexed Bad becomes invalid between Noldorin and Sindarin.

3. Use a Quenya form. This has the advantage of not being outdated Gnomish or Noldorin. It has the disadvantage of being fairly arbitrary - there are innumerable possible Quenya names that have roughly the same meaning as Bad Uthwen, but none is particularly valid. Also, we do not have convincing evidence that places in Gondolin were given Quenya names.

4. Drop it. This avoids the possibility of poor Elvish altogether. The only disadvantage is that we lose a bit of detail.

I am strongly opposed to option 3. I also think that option 2 is in every way superior to option 1. Therefore I am for either 2 or 4. I withold my final vote until I've given it a bit more thought.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2002, 04:47 AM   #2
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Sting

what is the deadline of submitting votes? For I'm not sure and need more time
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2002, 08:47 AM   #3
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

No official deadline has been set. I think in general we've been going with a 3 week time limit for these votes, so, provisionally, I'll say 3 weeks. In my opinion, though, it's far more important that we count everyone's vote than that we get it done quickly. So if anyone needs an extension, just so say.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2002, 10:19 AM   #4
Maédhros
The Kinslayer
 
Maédhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
Maédhros has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Maédhros
Ring

Quote:
4. Drop it. This avoids the possibility of poor Elvish altogether. The only disadvantage is that we lose a bit of detail.
In this case, would the name used be The Way of Escape?

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."
Maédhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2002, 11:01 AM   #5
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I am also curious about using 'the Way of Escape'. An english substitution for wherever the elvish phrase occurs.

I confess I have not done my homework to see how this fits with the text but it seems plausible.

DR

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2002, 03:13 PM   #6
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

Quote:
In this case, would the name used be The Way of Escape?
Yes, sorry I hadn't made that clear. I'm fairly certain that "The Way of Escape" can be used without a problem at all occurrences. Of course, if anyone has any other suggestions, those are welcome.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2002, 02:46 AM   #7
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I am for 4/ English Way of Escape.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2002, 10:54 AM   #8
Eruhen
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Eruhen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: At the Mountains of Madness
Posts: 399
Eruhen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I'm going to finally state my opinion and go with (drumroll please)........................................... ............... Door number 4!

It solves the problem by just getting rid of all the "Noldorin" Elvish and gives us an alternative that we are absolutely certain of, instead of going with Sindarin or Quenya. Which, if you know me, is strange, seeing as I seem to have a love affair with Quenya.

Anyway, I'm going with option 4.
The tally thus far is:
#1:0
#2:0
#3:0
#4:2
__________________
Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud.
Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî.
Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.
Eruhen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2002, 07:22 AM   #9
Tirinvo
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Eregion
Posts: 36
Tirinvo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Tirinvo
Tolkien

Sorry for the delay, but the circimflex, if everyone did not already know, is my choice

#1-0
#2-1
#3-0
#4-2
__________________
Do you live the Truth, or are you a mere speaker? For those whom speak life without life, from complacency, cannot be heard...
Anquildëa alcareryassë
Tirinvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2002, 01:14 AM   #10
Maédhros
The Kinslayer
 
Maédhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
Maédhros has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Maédhros
Sting

I would go with # 4.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."
Maédhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2002, 07:24 AM   #11
Eruhen
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Eruhen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: At the Mountains of Madness
Posts: 399
Eruhen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

So now it's:
#1: 0
#2: 1
#3: 0
#4: 3

And all you who haven't voted have 10 days left. Get on the ball if you want a part in this!
__________________
Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud.
Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî.
Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.
Eruhen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2002, 08:26 AM   #12
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I guess it is not as glamorous a vote as Legolas! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2002, 01:56 PM   #13
antoine2
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 41
antoine2 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Hello,

I vote for the 4/
drop and remplace by way to escape.
antoine2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2002, 07:33 AM   #14
Eruhen
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Eruhen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: At the Mountains of Madness
Posts: 399
Eruhen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

btw, Aiwendil. What are you choosing? I can't make it out from your post. Could we have a straight answer please, Mr. Mod?

Also, it's one vote for #2 and four votes for #4.
__________________
Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud.
Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî.
Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.
Eruhen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2002, 03:52 PM   #15
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

I hadn't made my vote explicit because I hadn't yet decided. I have pondered the matter, though, and my decision is made: 4.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2002, 05:36 PM   #16
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

#1: 0
#2: 1
#3: 0
#4: 5

Eruhen feel free to cross reference the member list in the FAQ's and apply the temporal thumbscrews to the rest of the members... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Just kidding.

I think some folks do not wish to weigh in on the more obscure language points.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2002, 08:49 PM   #17
Alkanoonion
Spirit in Eriador
 
Alkanoonion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 398
Alkanoonion has just left Hobbiton.
White-Hand

To avoid the thumbscrews my vote is for #4
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.
Alkanoonion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2002, 06:33 AM   #18
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Sting

just to taste it on one's tooth:

1) Let us fare to Bad Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further


2) Let us fare to Bâd Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further


3) Let us fare to Uswevande (Uswetie, Uswelonde, Uswasrado?) the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further

4) Let us fare to the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further


well, I think I will vote for #2

so it is

1-0
2-2
3-0
<font color="FF0013">4-6

#4 in the lead currently
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2002, 10:44 AM   #19
Eruhen
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Eruhen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: At the Mountains of Madness
Posts: 399
Eruhen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Only Mithadan, Tar Elenion, and maybe Mr. Underhill (I don't know how often he pops in here) have yet to vote. So this is pretty close to being done and the choice is pretty much decided, but we should wait until either everyone has put in their two cents worth or until the deadline comes. But, it's looking like we're going to be going with "Way of Escape". And, no, I'm not trying to swing anyone's vote!

edit: btw, what is next up on the list after this? I'm not to sure, but I think that section one should be pretty close to being done. Am I right?

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Eruhen ]
__________________
Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud.
Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî.
Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.
Eruhen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2002, 01:02 PM   #20
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

First off - even if all remaining members voted for #2, #4 would still have more votes. So I think we can consider the Way of Escape decided, although any who still wish to cast their vote are of course encouraged to do so.


I do believe the first sections decisions and changes are all now complete. The changes that have not been put into place can be revised.

Antoine [1-3] and Maedhros have done this in the past and may or may not wish to continue with it.

What is next?

I have created a list in the 'general comments/ group discussion' thread in this forum.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2002, 06:16 AM   #21
antoine2
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 41
antoine2 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

hello,

i will do that for monday, in a pdf version that we can put on public forum.

see you
antoine2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2002, 11:37 AM   #22
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting

For what it's worth, I would have thrown in with "Way of Escape" too, though I'm more an occasionally haunting spirit than a project member.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2002, 01:17 PM   #23
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Great to see you and your vote mr. underhill. I am glad you posted before Eruhen could get at you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] smart move!

Antoine, by all means make the corrections, but hold off posting in the public forum till the group discuss it.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2002, 12:30 AM   #24
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,310
Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

As I am no linguist, I vote Way of Escape.
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2002, 07:07 AM   #25
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

ahhh 2 skeletons out of the closet!

I think w/ the last 2 votes continuing the trend we can call this vote closed.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:36 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.