Man behind the Mythology - Page 13 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-05-2005, 03:10 PM

Patience. Apparently he invented some new versions, which is good news for lovers of Solitaire even if it did hinder progress on the Silmarillion

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-05-2005, 03:11 PM

Absolutely right, Squatter, and a delight to have you on the thread and on the forum! Pray proceed with a new one.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-05-2005, 03:22 PM

Why thank you, Estelyn. I shall endeavour to justify your enthusiasm.

Which college did Tolkien first join, and which subject was he reading?

Eruanna · 02-05-2005, 05:59 PM

If I recall correctly, Tolkien had a scholarship to Exeter College Oxford, to study Greats (Latin and Greek).

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-07-2005, 05:33 PM

It was a Classics Exhibition, but that's close enough. Carry on.

Eruanna · 02-08-2005, 01:59 PM

Thank you, Squatter.
This is a very interesting thread!

Next question:
Mabel Tolkien and her two young sons returned to England from South Africa in 1895. What was the name of the ship they travelled in?

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 02-08-2005, 03:02 PM

The SS Guelph, I believe.

Eruanna · 02-08-2005, 06:28 PM

You are correct in your belief, Sophia

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-13-2005, 09:24 AM

*Esty pokes Sophia

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 02-13-2005, 03:27 PM

My apologies.

What was one of the two Catholic churces on Woodstock Road sometimes attended by the Tolkiens?

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-14-2005, 01:46 AM

St Aloysius' would be one of them; I found that information in the "Oxford Life" chapter of Carpenter's biography. I'm not sure where to find the name of the second one, so since one is all you asked for, that's all you're getting!

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 02-14-2005, 01:35 PM

St. Alyosius' was one of them.

The other was St. George's, which I found on an Oxford tourist-sites website. I'm not fortunate enough to own the biography, so I'm going from the letters and the web (which has proved reasonably accurate thusfar).

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-16-2005, 02:18 AM

Whose baby received the name (among others) "Mister Tolkien"?

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-01-2005, 01:54 AM

Anyone want to take a try at this question, or shall I ask a new one?

Bêthberry · 03-01-2005, 07:11 AM

Drop us a hint, Esty; there's a good lass.

(My best HI imitation to date. )

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-01-2005, 07:19 AM

Be happy to - and a very nice imitation it is!

This person belongs to the earliest part (and place) of JRRT's life.

Rimbaud · 03-01-2005, 09:27 AM

During the early South Africa years, Daddy Tolkien’s servant Isaak took JRRT to show to his village.

Arthur Tolkien forgave him for this and so Isaak named his first son "Isaak Mister Tolkien Victor" after him.

Unexpectedly

~R

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-01-2005, 11:15 AM

Absolutely right, Rim, and nice to see you posting here again! Next one's yours...

Rimbaud · 03-02-2005, 07:11 AM

Ah, but at around the same time, what happened to three of the infant Tolkien's bibs?

Bêthberry · 03-02-2005, 07:50 AM

Now this is really digging deep into family memories. A neighbour's pet monkeys chewed up three of baby Toller's "pinafores". Is this what you mean by "bib", Mr. Ribbet?

Rimbaud · 03-02-2005, 08:20 AM

Indeed it is, Ms Berry, and I wasn't aware that 'bib' did not translate overseas. You learn something every day.

The floor is yours, Ma'am.

Grandiosely

~R

Bêthberry · 03-02-2005, 12:37 PM

You have done a public service, oh Perilous one. You have salvaged my view of Toller's infancy from a fate as bad as Ruskin's. Bib works here for infant neck apron, but around these parts, 'pinafore' is refers to the large aprons which young girls and teens wore over their dresses in earlier times. Oh these niceties of pond swimming.

But as to the floor: What did Tolkien do in hospital and on leave, after he survived the Battle of the Somme?

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-02-2005, 03:33 PM

He began writing the stories that later became the Silmarillion and the Book of Lost Tales.

Bêthberry · 03-02-2005, 03:51 PM

Well, Mz. Ghosted Princess, if you can tell us which stories, you can have all the floor.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-03-2005, 02:55 AM

Oh, so you want fussy details, eh?

Well, the first story was 'The Fall of Gondolin', written during convalescence in 1917; next one was 'The Children of Húrin' in the same year, followed by the story of Beren and Lúthien - enough?

Bêthberry · 03-03-2005, 09:02 AM

Enough but not too much!

Tell on, with hope that we shall guess your riddle.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-09-2005, 01:55 PM

Sorry that I forgot to carry on here! Thanks, Bb, for the gentle reminder. Here's a new question: What was the name of JRRT's aunt with whom he corresponded?

Bêthberry · 03-15-2005, 11:06 AM

Well, Esty, I cannot find any reference in the Letters to Aunt Grace Tolkien, but I believe that this younger sister of Tolkien's father told him stories about the family's past.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-15-2005, 01:04 PM

Sorry, it's not as easy as that, since her name is not 'Tolkien'. However, there are several letters written to her in the published collection. She read JRRT's works and he asked her opinion on them.

elronds_daughter · 04-15-2005, 07:27 PM

I believe that would be his Aunt Jane. However, I am at a loss to remember her last name. She was a Suffield before she married.

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-16-2005, 02:31 AM

Aunt Jane it was - well done, and welcome to this thread, elronds_daughter! Her married name was Neave, and she was interested in Tolkien's works, as he was interested in her opinion. He wrote Letters # 231, 234, 238, and 241 to her; several of those are wonderfully long, chatty letters, very enjoyable to read!

Carry on with a new question, please!

elronds_daughter · 04-26-2005, 05:43 PM

Sorry it's been a while! I've been on vacation--no computer access, alas! Now, on to the question (it's an easy one):

Who wrote these words to Tolkien: "May you say the things I have tried to say long after I am not here to say them."

<disclaimer: If I got that quote wrong, forgive me. I've not got a book available to me at the moment.>

Bêthberry · 04-26-2005, 07:15 PM

Perhaps easy, but a sombre one as well.

It was G.B Smith, one of Tolkien's school mates, a member of the T.C.B.S. who had read Tolkien's early poetry and shared the early ideas and excitement about writing. Smith wrote those words to Tolkien shortly before he was was himself killed in World War I when a shell burst behind him while walking down a village road.

elronds_daughter · 04-27-2005, 05:35 PM

Well done, Bb. As I said, 'twas easy. Carry on!

Estelyn Telcontar · 05-11-2005, 12:36 PM

*Esty pokes Miz Berry...

Bêthberry · 05-12-2005, 08:05 AM

I wonder if this will be acceptable as a biographical tidbit.

Tolkien was not entirely happy with the surname "Gamgee." What name would he have preferred to change Gamgee to, if Christopher had let him? (And, yes, that "let him" is a quote!)

Estelyn Telcontar · 05-16-2005, 04:10 AM

Thanks to the excellent index in Letters, this was easy to find! (Happily for me, since I've not the time and energy for a lengthy search.) Here's the answer straight from Letter #72:

Quote:

I am not really satisfied with the surname Gamgee and shd. change it to Goodchild if I thought you would let me.

Now, we've seen that surname used on this site, haven't we? *Esty points in the direction of 'Cami'...

Bêthberry · 05-16-2005, 05:20 AM

You're on the money, Estelyn!

And right also about our good Shire Mod, Cami Goodchild, aka Child of the 7th Age. When I saw that letter, I just had to use it to provide a small acknowledgement for her.

Estelyn Telcontar · 05-20-2005, 03:51 AM

To which type of building did Tolkien compare Beowulf, especially in the light of literary criticism's handling of the text?

The Elf-warrior · 05-26-2005, 08:23 PM

A stone house?

02-05-2005, 03:10 PM	#481
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	A virtue, invent it if you can Patience. Apparently he invented some new versions, which is good news for lovers of Solitaire even if it did hinder progress on the Silmarillion __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-05-2005, 03:11 PM	#482
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Absolutely right, Squatter, and a delight to have you on the thread and on the forum! Pray proceed with a new one. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-05-2005, 03:22 PM	#483
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	Collegiate Issues Why thank you, Estelyn. I shall endeavour to justify your enthusiasm. Which college did Tolkien first join, and which subject was he reading? __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-05-2005, 05:59 PM	#484
Eruanna Memento Mori Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Past The Point Of No Return Posts: 1,120	If I recall correctly, Tolkien had a scholarship to Exeter College Oxford, to study Greats (Latin and Greek). __________________ "Remember, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

02-07-2005, 05:33 PM	#485
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	It was a Classics Exhibition, but that's close enough. Carry on. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-08-2005, 01:59 PM	#486
Eruanna Memento Mori Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Past The Point Of No Return Posts: 1,120	Thank you, Squatter. This is a very interesting thread! Next question: Mabel Tolkien and her two young sons returned to England from South Africa in 1895. What was the name of the ship they travelled in? __________________ "Remember, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

02-08-2005, 03:02 PM	#487
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,834	How might one pronounce that? The SS Guelph, I believe. __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

02-08-2005, 06:28 PM	#488
Eruanna Memento Mori Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Past The Point Of No Return Posts: 1,120	You are correct in your belief, Sophia __________________ "Remember, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

02-13-2005, 09:24 AM	#489
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Esty pokes Sophia* __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-13-2005, 03:27 PM	#490
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,834	Goodness! I've forgotten more threads than I've remembered My apologies. What was one of the two Catholic churces on Woodstock Road sometimes attended by the Tolkiens? __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

02-14-2005, 01:46 AM	#491
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	St Aloysius' would be one of them; I found that information in the "Oxford Life" chapter of Carpenter's biography. I'm not sure where to find the name of the second one, so since one is all you asked for, that's all you're getting! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-14-2005, 01:35 PM	#492
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,834	Your go, Esty. St. Alyosius' was one of them. The other was St. George's, which I found on an Oxford tourist-sites website. I'm not fortunate enough to own the biography, so I'm going from the letters and the web (which has proved reasonably accurate thusfar). __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

02-16-2005, 02:18 AM	#493
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Whose baby received the name (among others) "Mister Tolkien"? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-01-2005, 01:54 AM	#494
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Anyone want to take a try at this question, or shall I ask a new one? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-01-2005, 07:11 AM	#495
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	Drop us a hint, Esty; there's a good lass. (My best HI imitation to date. ) __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

03-01-2005, 07:19 AM	#496
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Be happy to - and a very nice imitation it is! This person belongs to the earliest part (and place) of JRRT's life. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-01-2005, 09:27 AM	#497
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,096	During the early South Africa years, Daddy Tolkien’s servant Isaak took JRRT to show to his village. Arthur Tolkien forgave him for this and so Isaak named his first son "Isaak Mister Tolkien Victor" after him. Unexpectedly ~R __________________ And all the rest is literature

03-01-2005, 11:15 AM	#498
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Absolutely right, Rim, and nice to see you posting here again! Next one's yours... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-02-2005, 07:11 AM	#499
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,096	Ah, but at around the same time, what happened to three of the infant Tolkien's bibs? __________________ And all the rest is literature

03-02-2005, 07:50 AM	#500
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	Now this is really digging deep into family memories. A neighbour's pet monkeys chewed up three of baby Toller's "pinafores". Is this what you mean by "bib", Mr. Ribbet? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

03-02-2005, 08:20 AM	#501
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,096	Indeed it is, Ms Berry, and I wasn't aware that 'bib' did not translate overseas. You learn something every day. The floor is yours, Ma'am. Grandiosely ~R __________________ And all the rest is literature

03-02-2005, 12:37 PM	#502
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	You have done a public service, oh Perilous one. You have salvaged my view of Toller's infancy from a fate as bad as Ruskin's. Bib works here for infant neck apron, but around these parts, 'pinafore' is refers to the large aprons which young girls and teens wore over their dresses in earlier times. Oh these niceties of pond swimming. But as to the floor: What did Tolkien do in hospital and on leave, after he survived the Battle of the Somme? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

03-02-2005, 03:33 PM	#503
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	He began writing the stories that later became the Silmarillion and the Book of Lost Tales. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-02-2005, 03:51 PM	#504
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	Well, Mz. Ghosted Princess, if you can tell us which stories, you can have all the floor. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

03-03-2005, 02:55 AM	#505
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Oh, so you want fussy details, eh? Well, the first story was 'The Fall of Gondolin', written during convalescence in 1917; next one was 'The Children of Húrin' in the same year, followed by the story of Beren and Lúthien - enough? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-03-2005, 09:02 AM	#506
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	Enough but not too much! Tell on, with hope that we shall guess your riddle. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

03-09-2005, 01:55 PM	#507
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Sorry that I forgot to carry on here! Thanks, Bb, for the gentle reminder. Here's a new question: What was the name of JRRT's aunt with whom he corresponded? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-15-2005, 11:06 AM	#508
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	Well, Esty, I cannot find any reference in the Letters to Aunt Grace Tolkien, but I believe that this younger sister of Tolkien's father told him stories about the family's past. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

03-15-2005, 01:04 PM	#509
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Sorry, it's not as easy as that, since her name is not 'Tolkien'. However, there are several letters written to her in the published collection. She read JRRT's works and he asked her opinion on them. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-15-2005, 07:27 PM	#510
elronds_daughter Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its. Posts: 740	I believe that would be his Aunt Jane. However, I am at a loss to remember her last name. She was a Suffield before she married. __________________ I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat.

04-16-2005, 02:31 AM	#511
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	Aunt Jane it was - well done, and welcome to this thread, elronds_daughter! Her married name was Neave, and she was interested in Tolkien's works, as he was interested in her opinion. He wrote Letters # 231, 234, 238, and 241 to her; several of those are wonderfully long, chatty letters, very enjoyable to read! Carry on with a new question, please! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-26-2005, 05:43 PM	#512
elronds_daughter Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its. Posts: 740	Sorry it's been a while! I've been on vacation--no computer access, alas! Now, on to the question (it's an easy one): Who wrote these words to Tolkien: "May you say the things I have tried to say long after I am not here to say them." <disclaimer: If I got that quote wrong, forgive me. I've not got a book available to me at the moment.> __________________ I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat.

04-26-2005, 07:15 PM	#513
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,165	Perhaps easy, but a sombre one as well. It was G.B Smith, one of Tolkien's school mates, a member of the T.C.B.S. who had read Tolkien's early poetry and shared the early ideas and excitement about writing. Smith wrote those words to Tolkien shortly before he was was himself killed in World War I when a shell burst behind him while walking down a village road. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 04-26-2005 at 07:21 PM.

04-27-2005, 05:35 PM	#514
elronds_daughter Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its. Posts: 740	Well done, Bb. As I said, 'twas easy. Carry on! __________________ I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat.

05-11-2005, 12:36 PM	#515
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	*Esty pokes Miz Berry... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'