Two Dark Lords?

[JeffF.]

Elrond and Gandalf separately remark that to use the One Ring one would become a new Dark Lord. As long as the ring existed Sauron himself would still exist with the same power he had. If Saruman or the Balrog or Gandalf or Elrond had fallen to the Ring what would have happened? Unfinished Tales says that the Nazgul would have bowed to Saruman had he posessed the Ring. These Nazgul could have brought Sauron's armies with him. Would there be a battle of Dark Lords for supremacy?

[Inziladun]

I should say that if the Ring were claimed by one great enough in power and will to wield it, there would certainly be a confrontation between the claimant and Sauron. The winner would have taken Sauron's place as master of the Ring and all that had been wrought with it.

[Boromir88]

Inziladun's got it. In Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman, he talks about the Ring and Sauron's power being in rapport:

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.'

So, this explains that even if Sauron lost the Ring (as he did in the Last Alliance), the power would still be bound to Sauron. The only way to break the bond would be to destroy it, or someone else to claim the Ring, and usurp Sauron's place. It was the latter which Sauron feared the most, because if someone became the new 'Ring-lord,' Sauron would be left powerless just as we was after the Ring was destroyed.

I won't quote Letter 246 in full, because it's a rather long chunk, but Tolkien does go through possible Ring-lord candidates. He says even when Frodo claimed the Ring in the Sammath Naur he had nowhere near enough power, he wouldn't even be able to control the Nazgul. The Nazgul would have taken Frodo out of the Sammath Naur and straight to Sauron. Aragorn (who was able to best Sauron through the Palantir) would not have the strength either - as no mortal would have. Aragorn barely beat Sauron through the palantir, because the palantir was rightfully Aragorn's, and the contest took place at a distance. Had Aragorn been closer, say as close as Denethor was in proximity to Sauron (Denethor who also by right could use the palantir, but did not have Aragorn's mental strength - and was geographically closer to Sauron) Aragorn would probably have lost his mind in a contest against Sauron, as Denethor did.

So, that pretty much leaves (in Middle-earth) the Elves and Maiar, like Gandalf and Saruman. Now Tolkien does say that Gandalf may be the only one capable of besting Sauron for mastery of the Ring, because they are of the same order, and a Ring-wielding Gandalf might beat a ringless-wielding Sauron...however this was all speculative. Elrond and Galadriel also thought they could use the Ring to best Sauron, however Tolkien states that they soon rejected this, knowing the Ring's essential deceit was to fill its bearer with delusions of supreme power.

In any case, a battle against Sauron would certainly have to occur, if someone like Gandalf wanted to claim mastery of the Ring. I don't know what contest it would be, I've always imagined something like a battle of 'wills' as was seen between Aragorn and Sauron, Denethor and Sauron, through the Palantir. But who knows?

[Alfirin]

It's really just my opinion but I seem to get the impression that Galdriel (and possibly Elrond and a still ringed Celebrian) might form slightly special cases of what would happen if someone else took up the ring, that, in thier cases thier rule wouldn't be the same as Sauron's just equally bad, if not worse. as Galdriel said when Frodo offered her the ring "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair! " It has aways sounded to me as if a Galdriel run ME would be the opposite of Sauron's; a land not smothered in darkenss but burning under the constant glare of a light too bright to endure. The difference is sorta' like some authors I have read have interpeted the Slavic concepts of Chernebog and Byelobog, twin forces, perfectly opposite yet equally terrifying in their extreme purity.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It has aways sounded to me as if a Galdriel run ME would be the opposite of Sauron's; a land not smothered in darkenss but burning under the constant glare of a light too bright to endure. The difference is sorta' like some authors I have read have interpeted the Slavic concepts of Chernebog and Byelobog, twin forces, perfectly opposite yet equally terrifying in their extreme purity.

If Galadriel as a Ring-lord would have been relatively benign (and who better than herself to guess its effect on her?), why should she not have claimed it and, as Sam put it, 'made some folks pay for their dirty work'? After all, at that point sending the Ring to the Fire still must have looked like a pretty hopeless errand. Perhaps an ME ordered to her specifications would not have been evil in the precise way that Sauron wanted it, but I believe (and she must have agreed) that it would have been equally loathsome.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Galadriel as a Ring-lord would have been relatively benign (and who better than herself to guess its effect on her?), why should she not have claimed it and, as Sam put it, 'made some folks pay for their dirty work'? After all, at that point sending the Ring to the Fire still must have looked like a pretty hopeless errand. Perhaps an ME ordered to her specifications would not have been evil in the precise way that Sauron wanted it, but I believe (and she must have agreed) that it would have been equally loathsome.

I never claimed that Galadriel's Reign as ring lord would be beging, quite the contrary. I was simply claiming that it would not be a kingdom of "darkness" as Sauron's was but, rather one of blazing searing unendurable light. If anything such a kingdom would be WORSE than Sauron's not better. All I was trying to get at was that Unlike, say Boromir, or Aragorn, or Saruman or most of the others. Galadriel (as possibly the rest of the high elves, if they become ringlords, would be unlikely to step into Sauron's place driectly (i.e. more into Barad Dur, keep the Nazgul as thier own personal servants, send the Orcs out as thier own, and become a new Lord of Darkness) but would rather create a "new" terror on midde earth one of opposite quality, but equal evil (think about it this way, If you spend you whole life in total pitch black darkness, or if you stare directly at the sun for several hours you go equally blind)