LOTR and Wheel of Time

[Gurthang]

Has anyone else noticed some similarities between LOTR and Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. I'm not saying that he copied Tolkien's ideas. I'm just noting that there seems to be a number of available names and geographic features that are almost common between the books.

For instance: in both books the Dark Lord resides near a mountain stuck in an uninhabitable plain surrounded by more mountains.

Has anyone else noticed these similarities...

[Finwe]

Well, a lot of Dark Lords lived near mountains. Being surrounded by mountains gives one the opportunity to do pretty much whatever they want, with very few outsiders coming in to mess things up. Isolation is what Dark Lords usually want, and when they're surrounded by mountains, isolation is usually what they get.

[Olorin_TLA]

A friend tried to read the 1st book of WoT, but gave up in disgust because apparently the plot is a rip-off of LotR. I've heard Sword of Shannara is too.

[Rider of Rohan]

I would not say that it is an outright rip off. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that Robert Jordan is taking all our myths (Tolkien, Auther, Norse, Greek, etc.) and combining them into one big "supermyth." He wants symilarities because they catch the reader. Believe me if you read all of them you will see he is vastly different than Tolkien and an incredable writer in his own right.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:05 PM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Rider of Rohan ]

[Kalimac]

Sword of Shannara is a definite ripoff, WoT is problematic - I'm somewhat biased against it because I found it impossible to wade through the prose style, but there were a lot of ideas about different types of magic that didn't seem particularly rooted in Tolkien, and a few of them were quite good - just badly developed. The female characters are handled differently, they're much more prominent, though unfortunately most of them are unintentionally obnoxious. The central theme is of a group of green kids going on a quest, one of them has a special destiny, eventually they get separated and go off to meet various heroic fates. That's rather familiar, but it's also a fairly universal theme. The brooding hero, unfortunately, isn't Frodo-quality; he goes from tormented and questioning in the beginning of Book 1 to tormented and questioning somewhere in the middle of book 5, which is where I gave up. Two of his more humourous male companions are best friends named Mat and Perrin, which sounds...familiar. What can I say? It beats a waiting-room magazine, but I wouldn't pay real money for it.

[Gorwingel]

Well the reason they are so similar, is because Tolkien basically created the genre of modern fantasy literature. As we the members of the downs have been influnced by Mr. Tolkien, many authors also have been influenced by him, and they have wanted to incoperate ideas from LOTR into their own stories. I have not read Wheel of Time, but I have heard of it, and it does sound like it is similar to LOTR, but I don't think the author would use a similar story just for the joy of ripping off Tolkien.

[Gurthang]

True enough, Tolkien's work is the best, so why not use some of those awesome qualities?

But that was not the point I was making. I wanted to show that every story must have certain elements to make it exciting. Such as a returning evil and an unlikely hero. The stories usually have a scheme somewhat like that, whether it's The Hobbit or The Blue Sword. (another fantasy I've read. Not near Tolkien quality, but not bad for a normal author.)

So what I really want to know is... What other necessary elemental characters or social scenes do you find common in many works?

[Arothir]

Basically you can't write fantasy without it seeming like a ripoff of Tolkien. As Gorwingel said, Tolkien basically created the genre of modern fantasy. You don't have to read Tolkien to write a book that seems like a ripoff.

[Alatariel]

Sword of Shannara is a definite ripoff

God, I am so glad that I'm not the only one to think this. I just read SoS for the first time about a month ago, and I was flabbergasted by all of the similarities. As has already been stated, it would be difficult to not have a couple of elements similar to Tolkien, but Terry Brooks takes it to extremes. In SoS, every time he introduced a new character, it was like he was saying "here is the Aragorn character" or "here is Gandalf - only less powerful" (since he seems to only have one spell). Like many of us here, I have read many books in the fantasy genre - including most of the Wheel of Time series - and none of them are such a blatant copy of LotR as Sword of Shannara.

[Orual]

Wheel of Time has more in common (to put it mildly) with the Lord of the Rings than just genre. It's been a while since I read the first nine, but I'm glad I didn't have a soda with me when I read the tenth, because I snorted when a character going incognito gave his name. Talking to him and using his pseudonym, one character says:

Why are you so interested in them, Master Underhill? Is that an Andoran name?

Crossroads of Twilight, page 82. Emphasis mine. Sorry, but that is beyond the possibility of coincidence. Tribute, maybe, but it came off as laziness to me. Heaven knows Robert Jordan makes up names for unnecessary characters who exist only to confuse his readers.

On the other hand, I have read all ten books, so that either says something about the hypocrisy of the above statement or my complete lack of things to fill my time. Take your pick.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:43 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: Orual ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Basically you can't write fantasy without it seeming like a ripoff of Tolkien.

I wouldn't wholly agree with that. I read a lot of fantasy books after reading LotR for the first time and would agree that many of them follow the basic pattern of LotR. Terry Brookes' Shannara series is, as others have said, the most blatant example. But I also read a fair few which were different in form and structure. Anne McCaffrey's Pern series, which I enjoyed immensely, springs to mind. Michael Moorcock's Corum and Elric books are also quite different in style and (particularly) characterisation.

And I have just started reading Pullman's Northern Lights and, while only a few chapters in, it seems to me to be of an entirely different character to LotR.

[Diamond18]

I agree with Saucepan Man — there is much more to fantasy than Tolkien. Try checking out Neil Gaiman or Ursula K. LeGuin or Juliet Marillier. Nothing like Tolkien, and all excellent.

[Rosenberg]

After Tolkien effectively created modern fantasy, there was that small backlash lead by Michael Moorecock (who was also clearly influenced by Lovecraft as well as Tolkien). Now there's a guy who didn't rip off Tolkien, but he loses points with me for ridiculous criticisms of The Master while being a far inferior writer himself. Some of his Elric books are enjoyable enough, though.

[Kronos]

On reading this thread there seems to be a body of opinion that states that;

1. Tolkien invented the (modern) fantasy genre
2. All fantasy is compelled to copy him

I am firmly of the opinion that both of these theories are wrong. Had the first stated that Tolkien popularised the fantasy genre then I would be able to agree but there is no way that he invented it.

Even with the addition of modern to the fantasy genre it is clear that Tolkien did not invent it. If anything Tolkien’s LOTR is the most deliberately archaic of the fantasy works out there, hardly modern in any sense. He himself would doubtless be insulted at the label modern being applied to him.

Nor did he invent fantasy in any other sense. Fantasy was around before Tolkien, whether it be the Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland or even the Iliad, and it will be around long after him.
Robert E Howard was writing before Tolkien not to mention other writers such as Dunsany.
Peake’s Gormanghast was written at the same time that Tolkien was writing his works and in many ways is starting to become as much of an influence to current fantasy writers such as Mievelle. If anything Gormanghast is in some ways more original than LOTR, certainly it is not so obviously a rehash of myths dear to the author as LOTR and the associated works are.

There are some high profile fantasy books that copy LOTR though. Certainly Terry Brooks is a guilty candidate and the first book of the Wheel of Time is basically a rehash of elements of LOTR. It would be unfair to say that the work as a whole is a copy though. Certainly in the 10 or so books there is much that cannot be said to be inspired by LOTR. That is not to say that it is good though.

Move away from these authors and the originality becomes more apparent. Steven Erikson’s Malazan Book of the Fallen series is no where near a copy of LOTR. In fact in some ways it is too original and inventive for its own good, making it hard to keep a track on what is happening to whom and where.
George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire is far more closely related to the War of the Roses than to LOTR.
Phillip Pullman’s already mentioned His Dark Materials trilogy owes little if not nothing to LOTR and Moorcock’s works have consciously steered away from literature of the kind that LOTR represents.

There is little doubt that Tolkien did much to popularize fantasy but there is much that is original if one is willing to look around. Indeed there is much that is more original than the LOTR, not needing to rely on Dark Lords and the like.
There is also little doubt that Tolkien is a great influence on the fantasy genre, more so on the numerous crappy bulky trilogies churned out as the “next Tolkien” than on the better authors though.
Doubtless the fantasy market would be very different today had Tolkien not existed. Would it be better off though? That is a difficult question to answer but one that is interesting to consider. Perhaps it would be better off if we had a few less books wherein a world is threatened by a Dark Lord and an unlikely hero (often a country bumpkin) has to save the world over three books.

[Diamond18]

Welcome to the 'Downs, Kronos, and kudos on one of the best first posts I've seen. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I quite agree with your points—though I have not read all the books you cite I've read a fair amount of fantasy that is original and clearly shows the personal imagination and voice of the author (mostly by the authors I mentioned above). The mark of good fiction is when an author really invests his/herself into the work and the characters, so I would venture to state that an honest attempt at writing your own work will always be better than a commercial copycat. And I've been encouraged to see that there are indeed fantasy authors and books out there that do that. To say Tolkien invented fantasy is simply historically inaccurate and I see no justification for the mindset that you can't write fantasy without copying him. That is at the same time unfair to honest, aspiring authors, and a bad excuse for bad writing.

Sorry to start ranting. But as a fantasy author this is a topic dear to me heart. Never say originality is dead, my friends.

[Gurthang]

Some copy, and some don't. I'm sure that's happened to many aspiring authors. And although Tolkien did not invent Fantasy, he wrote with a style that marked a new breed of fantasy.

But everyone (excluding Diamond and Kronos) seemes to believe that everyone rips off JRRT. But there are some things that make a fantasy a fantasy. I'm not talking magic, but more like the constant presence of evil. It just defines fantasy. If you think Tolkien created something like that, well, you would think everyone copied him.

But really how far from him can you get without leaving the fantasy border?

[Kronos]

Thanks Diamond, although upon reading your initial post I have discovered that I left Gaiman out of my list of original authors. Doubtless I left off others too but I was most remiss to leave him off. He is very inventive and Mr Coup and Mr Vandamar are two of my favourite villains.

[Kalimac]

Whoa, whoa, Gurthang, hang on. Very few of us, if any, are saying that all fantasy authors rip off Tolkien (I can think of quite a few authors - a lot have been named - whom no sane person would dream of accusing of such a thing). The struggle against an underlying evil etc. has been a literary theme since the beginning of literature, and I doubt anyone disputes that. What we were discussing was whether Wheel of Time and/or Sword of Shannara rips off Tolkien in much more specific things. Personally I don't think WoT really does *that* much (the obviously-Tolkien elements, like Mat & Perrin and the Underhill are not, let's face it, terribly important to the plot, when I think about it they seem more thrown in as a wink to the reader).

On the other hand, I defy anyone to show how Sword of Shannara is *not* a Tolkien ripoff. It's OK for stories to share basic elements, but not the same plot with renamed characters, for God's sake. People have been sued for plagiarism for much less.

[Arothir]

I love His Dark Materials, which are very none Tolkien and almost have a C. S. Lewis religious based thing in it. But HDM starts like this: Strange things are happening of which Lyra doesn't exactly know. There is a massive war against the Authority. This involves the uniting of diverse people. The story is told from the view of these different peoples. Those seem like LOTR elements.

[Kalimac]

They are, but they're also the elements behind many stories; Narnia (as you mentioned) uses this story in several variations, Wheel of Time has the same thing going on, Neil Gaiman in "Neverwhere" uses it to an extent. (Hero has to get help from a bunch of diverse elements to rescue girl, if you really boil it down). But Pullman's world is very, very different from Tolkien's. The daemons have no real counterpart, and the knife that cuts between worlds, and the compass, are nifty artifacts. The society is differently structured, and while the heroine is someone who seems obscure & in the background who goes on to do a lot of important stuff, there are bushels of stories with that idea.

Full disclosure: I loathed HDM. I made it through two books, ended up throwing the second one against the wall in a fury, and sold them both on Amazon (used, obviously [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). But I don't think Pullman ripped off the plot from Tolkien, and believe me, I'd jump on the chance to point it out if he did. I just hated the "good" characters so much that I wanted them to lose with a passion.

[Gimli stonesheild]

Suilad
Yes, finally someone else has noticed that there are so many similar things between Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings books like in the beginning (this is from the Fellowship of the Ring)

The Wheel of time turns and Ages come and pass leaving memories that become legend then fade to myth and are long forgotten...

To me it sounds like P.J was taking a bit from that, but I do not know.

I would also like to agree with who ever said most modern fantasy books a lot like Tolkiens books, one thing I have noticed is that in a lot of older fantasy books dwarves and Elves did not exist in the same story, but after Tolkien Elves and dwarves are springing up all over the place being bitter enemies..... That is all I have to say

Namarie

[Orominuialwen]

I have noticed that Robert Jordan rips off lots of words from Tolkien. The ones I can remember at the moment are: Andor, Hurin, Calma, Eldar, Galar, and Maia. I myself refuse to read the books, but my brother reads them and I have found these out from him. I personally count this as copyright infringement. Please do not tell me that it would never win in court. I am already told this by most people I know, including my own family. To give you a taste of my opinion, my old sig said

Naur dan Robert Jordan! (Fire take Robert Jordan!)

On thing I will say to his credit is that J.K. Rowling ripped off Dementors from him, IMO. He also has creatures that suck your soul out through your mouth and that have names that start with a D.

[Kronos]

I have noticed that Robert Jordan rips off lots of words from Tolkien. The ones I can remember at the moment are: Andor, Hurin, Calma, Eldar, Galar, and Maia.

Erm, Maia was a Greek goddess so I don't really see how he could have copied a name that predates Tolkien by about 2,000 years from Tolkien.

[Manelwen]

Alright, I have a bone to pick. I am gonna pick it until I am satisfied...*takes deep breath as she starts to rant*

First off, I am a huge fan of Robert Jordan. I play the mud game, I read the books, I have most of the merchandise (besides the sword, ring and dagger) that he has his stamp on. I think he is being misrepresented. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Mr.Jordan's character, Rand al'Thor is based off of Thor, the thunder god. I guess his last name might be a giver. All of his races of people; Ogier, Aiel, Andoran, Seanchan, Illian, Mayener, etc. Are based off of real cultures. As for the final battle, Tarmon Gaidon, that is Ragnarok. As far as I can tell, Robert Jordan based the books events off of Norse Mythology, and it seems that JRR Tolkien did too.

I think it is not fair to Mr.Jordan, who put all of his hard work and effort into creating such a beautiful story, for people to say its a cop-off of another author, no matter how amazing that other author is. (That was a run on sentence, wasn't it? Muah!)

You can take any book and relate it to any subject. Heck, if you had the mind to do it, you could relate A.N. Roquelare's 'Sleeping Beauty' books to the Hobbit!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a little extreme, but I said it to prove a point.

As for books that are nothing like Tolkien's fantasy realms...ever read Sara Douglass's 'Wayfarer Redemption series'? Or how about Jacqueline Carey's 'Kushiel Trilogy'?

For an aspiring author like myself, I read these inserts from a few people, and it makes me think that I have no new ideas. I will never be able to create something new because Tolkien has done it all.

Tolkien created a beautiful new world that is shiny and great to us all; a utopia for the imagination, but he did not create an entire universe. There are still plenty of realms to explore. Plenty of Characters to agonize over. Plenty of plots to twist.

*Sigh* there I am done. That wasn't so bad, was it?

Manelwen
P.S- For those wondering what A.N. Roquelare (Anne Rice's other pen name) wrote, it was S&M Erotica. You won't believe me, but I have never read it. I just hear friends talk about it.

[drigel]

aaah this old topic once again. There is very little in the realm of any art that does not "take" or "borrow" elements from others - i know. But, for me, originality of the work speaks for itself. It depends on the mindframe of the reader. If you love jumping into that world, you will love other takes on it... i guess. I personally dont like the stuff (fantasy has gotten better, but the stuff in the 70s was blatantly unoriginal - which is I suppose much more respectfull than blatantly a RIP OFF), but i understand those who do.

Let me think - after Watership Down, i read the first SOS, and then the Thomas Covenant series, then pretty much gave up on the genre, and stuck to sci-fi [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

I don't see why everyone is complaining about Robert Jordan. Just read Raymond E Feist's Magician: Apprentice and Master. He's got a race of Dark Elves known as moredhel. I don't know about you, but that is blatantly ripping off Tolkien, unless of course, you can offer proof that Feist created his own language that, incidentally, had the word "moredhel" mean "Dark Elf."