The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-18-2007, 12:22 PM   #1
MatthewM
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MatthewM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 627
MatthewM has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to MatthewM
Tolkien Pj To Produce The Hobbit!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071218/...ilm_the_hobbit

Check this out! An agreement has been reached!
__________________
"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring
MatthewM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 12:38 PM   #2
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
The fact that Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh are the executive producers of these two films means a great deal. But what it means above all else for them is one thing - power. They will be in charge. They will be the boss. They will have the last word. No running to anyone else for approval. No hiding from studio executives who want to poke around on set. No arguement about final cut or anything else. Jackson and Walsh will be gods on this film

I would guess that they will get the best possible financial deal that anyone has ever recieved for a film.

In the movie business, the studios will sooner part with money than with power. To get this deal done they had to part with both.

And as a side note, this probably puts the final two nails into the coffin of any sequels to GOLDEN COMPASS. New Line is going to marshall their economic and production forces behind these Middle-earth films and are not going to waste resources on something which has proven to be a loser.

The next year will be extremely interesting as we get the announcement of director (in all probablity Jackson), cast members, and other talent. It will be a very interesting year.

Let the speculation begin.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 12:42 PM   #3
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
One question...

What is the sequel?
How can you make a sequel to the Hobbit, when you've already done it...it's LotR!
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 12:51 PM   #4
Thenamir
Spectre of Capitalism
 
Thenamir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 982
Thenamir is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Questions, questions...

TM: Hobbit in two parts, not a literal "sequel".
  1. Two movies? Hmmm...where is the likely split point, I wonder? What will the cliffhanger be in Hobbit I? Caught by spiders? Imprisoned be Elves? A barrel ride down the forest river?
  2. Casting -- Gotta have Ian McKellan back as Gandalf?
  3. Legolas could potentially be hangin' with Dad in Thranduil's fortress so ya gotta have Orlando Bloom?
  4. And what about Ian Holm? Too old to play Bilbo, now? Who would take his estimable place, or perhaps he could be a younger Ian with the help of CGI, a la Beowulf?
  5. Christopher Lloyd as Thranduil?
  6. The voice of Smaug?
  7. What elements will have to be CGI, and what should not?
Just a starter list, for conversation.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
~~ Marcus Aurelius
Thenamir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 02:00 PM   #5
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
No, I think I know what it's about Thenamir.
If I remember correctly, I read an article some time ago where they were planning the Hobbit and another movie about other events that took place before LotR. Maybe stuff like the Dwarves losing Moria, Rohan coming to Gondor's help or the Wise attacking Dol Guldur.
Problem is I can't really see how you can combine these different storylines...
Then again, I might be wrong about that. What I could imagine is a series of animated minifilms (something like the Animatrix or the Clone Wars) that would deal with these separate events...

On the other hand, I can't really believe that they would make the Hobbit in two parts.
I mean RotK was one movie and that's one large novel, with three books in it. TH is much smaller and simply there isn't enough going on to make that possible.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 02:15 PM   #6
Thenamir
Spectre of Capitalism
 
Thenamir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 982
Thenamir is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Hmmm. That actually makes more sense, TM. And I would salivate rather embarassingly at the idea of a series of independently-produced minifilms in the same vein as The Animatrix.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
~~ Marcus Aurelius
Thenamir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 02:35 PM   #7
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post

And as a side note, this probably puts the final two nails into the coffin of any sequels to GOLDEN COMPASS. New Line is going to marshall their economic and production forces behind these Middle-earth films and are not going to waste resources on something which has proven to be a loser.
Wouldn't bank on it being a loss maker. I was watching 'movie' news on Sky today and they were saying it's doing well outside the USA (it's not the whole of the film-going world you know ), and it hasn't even opened yet in every territory. It will turn a profit, sorry to disappoint you. If it does lose money then it's more likely part of an ongoing trend as films aren't taking in as much money in the USA right now due to the economy and the net result of that will be that less money is available for The Hobbit - so in the long run it will be a Very Good Thing if Golden Compass does alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might
On the other hand, I can't really believe that they would make the Hobbit in two parts.
I can. It's called twice as many ŁŁŁŁŁŁs.

Oh, such a cynic. I just hope they chuck enough money at it to hire a proper scriptwriter and to take on Alan Lee and John Howe again.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 02:47 PM   #8
Meriadoc1961
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 101
Meriadoc1961 has just left Hobbiton.
I don't know anything, so I am just guessing, but it would seem to me that they would have to have the first movie based upon events in The Silmarillion, and then follow the story line of The Hobbit. But I suppose the two books could be spliced together to make two movies.

Merry
__________________
"If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"
Meriadoc1961 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 03:23 PM   #9
Farael
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Farael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,549
Farael has just left Hobbiton.
I can't remember WHERE I read it, but from what I understood at the time, PJ meant to add material such as the White Council and the "defeat" of the Necromancer/Sauron. That should give enough extra material for two movies methinks.

What I'm scared about is how they'd deal with things that Tolkien never really wrote on... I REFUSE to see Gandalf shooting fireballs Saruman-style while Elrond commands the forces of nature to attack an army of goblin and Galadriel wields a HUGE sword, slaying Sauron's biggest warrior.
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.
Farael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 03:34 PM   #10
Gothbogg the Ripper
Wight
 
Gothbogg the Ripper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southend,U.K
Posts: 113
Gothbogg the Ripper has just left Hobbiton.
Wow! Great news! Absolutely stunning. Now comes the simple matter of casting the voice of Smaug. I vote for Timothy Dalton!
__________________
Thanks for abandoning me for three years guys. I really enjoyed being a total outcast.
Gothbogg the Ripper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 03:48 PM   #11
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
So two films it will be. I'm looking forwards to it even if I don't hope for too much...

I'd like the scenario where we would get a lot of Silmarillion stuff and other general background with all the visual mastery those guys have in their hands. Also getting deeper into those persons involved in the story, how their relations and beliefs are tested and how they cope and change etc. Maybe some interesting viewpoints to Gollum as well - and a long scene with the riddles in the dark - and the eccentric Beorn as a fabulous creation of modern digi-tech with his message of being one with nature! The disturbing role of the elves as the self-presumed master-race and all the moral problems it will wake up, the questions of history and ownership, bonds and loyalty, greed and friendship, letting go and forgiving vs. standing bravely and with honour etc... There would be so much to say in that film!

Then maybe something of an adventure story just enough to give it enough marketing credibility.

Sadly it will not be so as the Silm-stuff or the harder themes of the book are not for the box office... And cash is what they are going for anyways.

So what could it be then in reality?

Let me guess...

So we will have a nice and partly humorous adventure-story as film one in which Bilbo and the dwarves reach the Lake Town. The people who know the story or are familiar with the LotR-movies are given some hints to the gravity of situations with fex. musical themes reminding that of the Ring's theme or with other gadgets like that in the scenes where Bilbo gets the ring. But those will be just small things. It will be a nice fantasy adventure with some stunning effects and suitable for all the family without any previous knowledge of Tolkien's world.

Then with the second movie they will say that it has "darker tones" in it. They will try to make Smaug "the next Gollum" and it will gain a lot of screentime. All this will then lead to the massive battle of the five armies which will surpass the battle at the Pelennor fields in RotK with it's magnitude as the technology has advanced since the LotR - and will take half of the film... And in the end some green-grey slime will just wipe the battlefield clean...

Nice box office stuff indeed.

A bad filmatisation of the Hobbit though...

.....
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farael
I REFUSE to see Gandalf shooting fireballs Saruman-style while Elrond commands the forces of nature to attack an army of goblin and Galadriel wields a HUGE sword, slaying Sauron's biggest warrior.
Sorry Farael, you'll need to either close your eyes or just leave the film... that's what they will do.

Well depicted, though...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 04:06 PM   #12
Nazgűl-king
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 104
Nazgűl-king has just left Hobbiton.
It's great that we finally have some news on The Hobbit film (Or films I should say), as for who should voice Smaug, I always imaged Smaug sounding like James Earl Jones (who voiced Darth Vader in Star Wars). As for them splitting it into two parts, this should mean that they should be able to put just about everything (if not everything) from the book in, as well as putting in some extra stuff, like the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur. What do you think they are going to name the second one?
Nazgűl-king is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 04:23 PM   #13
Oddwen
Drummer in the Deep
 
Oddwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Next Sunday A.D.
Posts: 2,215
Oddwen is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Oddwen is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via Skype™ to Oddwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingy
What do you think they are going to name the second one?
It'll probably be something like "The Hobbit: There..." and "The Hobbit part II: ...and back again." Or just "There and Back Again".
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

Oddwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 04:38 PM   #14
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
here is an update from Entertainment Weekly which contains some authoritative information
---------------------------------------------

Quote:
MGM CEO Harry Sloan talks 'Hobbit'
Dec 18, 2007, 03:13 PM | by Vanessa Juarez

Categories: Movie Biz, The Hobbit

This morning, New Line and MGM announced that the Hobbit debacle was over and the first of two planned pics would finally be going into pre-production with Peter Jackson as executive producer. The Hobbit is scheduled for a 2010 release, and the sequel is expected the following year -- the latter having the better chance of being directed by the Lord of the Rings mastermind himself. Shortly after the announcement, Hollywood Insider spoke with MGM CEO Harry Sloan about the details.

EW: You must be delighted that this project is finally moving forward.
HARRY SLOAN: Ecstatic. It’s a great day for MGM and New Line, and to have two Hobbit movies with Peter Jackson, really, I couldn’t imagine anything better happening around Christmastime this year.

Can you talk about how this came together? Did this just happen overnight or the last few days?
Well, you know, nothing happens overnight. MGM has always said, and taken a firm position, that we want Peter to be involved, and we have to compliment and be very gratified that [New Line’s Bob Shaye and Michael Lyne] and Peter were able to put their differences aside for the good of these movies. We saw that take place over the last six months. I wouldn’t say it was instant by any means.

It’s seems that for the last year or so MGM has tried to stay out of the fray because this was a disagreement between New Line and Peter Jackson over the lawsuit. So when did you come into the picture, and how persuasive did you have to be?
It was very much in MGM’s interest that we get this property up and running. When I took over the studio, one of our first goals was to develop franchises, and this is the first one we have under the new management, and I also think between The Hobbits and James Bond, we now have two of the best-known franchises in the world, so it’s a really great day for MGM.

Have Peter Jackson and New Line resolved the lawsuit?
Yes, they have. That was part of it, because it wouldn’t have been a good atmosphere.

Peter Jackson did say all along that he didn’t want to go into a new deal without having settled the lawsuit.
And, of course, it added a level of complexity to putting the whole deal together. But I think the most important thing was for the participants, for Peter and Bob and Michael, to first get talking and start focusing on what great work they had accomplished together. That began to build a bridge toward cooperation on resolving the lawsuit and, of course, making a deal for Peter to oversee these two movies out of the Hobbit property.

Can you tease us with who might be in line to direct? Guillermo Del Toro, Sam Raimi...
Well, those are the names that have been mentioned and they’re both top directors, excellent directors. It’s Peter’s project. Peter and Bob Shaye are going to oversee it creatively but in the end ... our choice had always been Peter. But if after he and Fran [Walsh, Jackson's wife] and whoever they work with develop the script, if Peter feels comfortable and Bob feels comfortable with another director, then there will be another director.

Is there any chance that Peter could direct the Hobbit sequel?
Well, he could direct either of them.

He’s been busy with The Lovely Bones, so has it been a scheduling thing?
Well, he’s got Lovely Bones, he’s got Tin Tin, he’s got two or three projects, but it is the right time for him to devote his intentions to developing the property and the script with himself and Fran and maybe other writers as well. And once the property is developed and there’s a picture that’s ready to go, he may consider directing it -- although the second film might be more likely due to scheduling.

Does Peter have the right to refuse a director for this one, or script approval?
Neither us nor New Line would want to hire a director that Peter was not completely comfortable with. Remember it’s Peter’s project, he’s overseeing it. So I don’t want to tell you what’s legally in the contract.... But we wouldn’t do that.

This must be a good time for New Line to land this project, given that Golden Compass hasn’t done well. Did that play any sort of a role in getting this to come through at this point in time?
They can speak for themselves. But from my point of view, I’d say no because I think we were well on our way to having The Hobbit set to be developed and go into production long before Golden Compass opened.

Well, I’m sure they’re happy now. It’s good timing.
Look, any time perhaps the world’s greatest franchise has the opportunity to live on is good timing. That’s how we feel. We’re blessed every time we get another James Bond movie up and running.

With those two franchises, how challenging is it going to be with the writers' strike, if it continues to go on into the New Year, and there’s also the SAG negotiations next year.
We start shooting the new James Bond movie Jan. 7, and we’ll be done before [a potential] actors' strike, so it won’t affect James Bond. As far as The Hobbit, yes, it’s going to have an affect because we need the strike to get settled. We’ve got Peter Jackson, which is the biggest point here, but now Peter and the other writers who will be involved can’t write. So we’ve got to get this strike settled.

Any word on who would star in The Hobbit, or any expectations? I know a lot of the previous LOTR actors who would be able to have a role in The Hobbit have said that they would only be on board if Peter Jackson was.
Yeah, I think Peter stayed in touch. I think Peter’s been in touch over time with the other actors and is close with them and they’re close with him, so I think we’d be hopeful that some would reappear.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 05:10 PM   #15
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,473
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sorry, folks, there's not going to be any Silmarillion material.
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 05:16 PM   #16
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
See, there you go. Making authoritave statements when there clearly is a difference of opinion about what even constitutes "SIlmarillion material". I would remind you that the word Silmarallion was used by JRRT in the Appendicies to LOTR where he described many events of the First and Second Ages. That material from LOTR is owned as film rights by Saul Zaentz and New Line Cinema.

And yet some people think there is nothing to work out? Please.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 05:18 PM   #17
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,473
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Nope, there's nothing to work out. If Zaentz/New Line use Tolkien material not included in the LR, then the lawyers will descend. Period. Why should the Estate 'compromise' when the other side has a null claim?
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 01:06 AM   #18
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
I would remind you that the word Silmarallion was used by JRRT in the Appendicies to LOTR where he described many events of the First and Second Ages.
He also used the word 'the' in LotR, & having spent most of last night checking I find he used it in all his other fiction - I think this is proof positive that when Tolkien sold the film rights to LotR & TH that actually included everything he wrote that includes the word 'the'.

To strengthen the case - he also made use of commas in all his writings.....
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:23 AM   #19
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,477
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
See, there you go. Making authoritave statements when there clearly is a difference of opinion about what even constitutes "SIlmarillion material". I would remind you that the word Silmarallion was used by JRRT in the Appendicies to LOTR where he described many events of the First and Second Ages. That material from LOTR is owned as film rights by Saul Zaentz and New Line Cinema.

And yet some people think there is nothing to work out? Please.
The rights to The Lord of the Rings (including the appendices) and The Hobbit are separate from the rights to The Silmarillion. [By which I mean the book published under that title in 1977, okay?]

That doesn't mean that New Line won't try and get permission to use material from The Silmarillion in their upcoming movies– but that has nothing to do with the use of the word "Silmarillion" in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings.

When people talk about The Silmarillion, they are, by default, talking about the published book, not the synopses of some of the events included in Appendix A. (Anyway, Tolkien didn't call Appendix A The Silmarillion, either.)

Surely you understand the difference?
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 08:06 AM   #20
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
Nerwen ... yes, I do understand the difference. Yes, I do understand what constitutes the book length SILMARALLION. Yes, I do understand the material found in the Appendicies in which Tolkien uses the term Silmarallion. And yes, I do understand that there is a good deal of overlap between the two. And there is the rub.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 08:58 AM   #21
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,477
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
To quote myself (in the First and Second Age Film Rights thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Are you suggesting that lawyers for Tolkien Estate might claim anything which is treated in both The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion violates the copyright on the latter? I don't think they'd get very far.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 09:29 AM   #22
Thenamir
Spectre of Capitalism
 
Thenamir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 982
Thenamir is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
My vote for the voice of Smaug: Michael Dorn -- give him a proper British accent and rough up the edges of that voice (Lt. Worf on Star Trek, for those not in-the-know), and it could be smooth and mysterious riddling with Bilbo, and wild and dangerous attacking Lake-Town. James Earl Jones is already too many great voices, Sean Connery has already voiced a dragon (Dragonheart), John Rhys-Davies is both Gimli and Treebeard, and Christopher Lee has already been marked in my mind as Saruman.

But please, please, don't get someone like the voice artist, whoever he was, who did Smaug in the Rankin-Bass version. (Aptly named -- "rank" means stinking, and "bass" is a fish.) That was simply dreadful.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
~~ Marcus Aurelius
Thenamir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 10:56 AM   #23
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,473
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Are you suggesting that lawyers for Tolkien Estate might claim anything which is treated in both The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion violates the copyright on the latter? I don't think they'd get very far.
Of course not. If it's in the Appendices, they've got it (presumably- there might be an exemption clause in the contract, but we can't know that). The issue is the rather astonishing claim that all the First and Second age material Tolkien ever wrote is somehow 'incorporated by reference' into the Appendices.
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 11:56 AM   #24
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
from WCH

Quote:
The issue is the rather astonishing claim that all the First and Second age material Tolkien ever wrote is somehow 'incorporated by reference' into the Appendices.
Could be please cite the quote where anyone made that "rather astonishing claim"? And I would like the exact quote not some rehash, a retelling , a paraphrasing, a translation, an "its the same thing as...", or "it sounded like to me that ...".
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 12:06 PM   #25
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,473
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Then, to avoid any futher accusations of 'strawman' or 'twisting', will you please, Sauron, make a succinct statement of why you think New Line has a right or a claim of a right to Silmarillion material?
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 12:13 PM   #26
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
Mr. Hicklin - could you please answer my previous request to you first and then we can move on? First things first.

Again, you stated

Quote:
The issue is the rather astonishing claim that all the First and Second age material Tolkien ever wrote is somehow 'incorporated by reference' into the Appendices.
And I asked you.....Could be please cite the quote where anyone made that "rather astonishing claim"? And I would like the exact quote not some rehash, a retelling , a paraphrasing, a translation, an "its the same thing as...", or "it sounded like to me that ...".

Please be good enough to cover that ground before we move on. Thank you.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #27
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,473
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
OK, quotes ensue:


Quote:
Is it not possible, that a sharp legal staff with some innovative thinking, could well claim that they own the films rights to that material and anything published later and made known to the public can be used by them as well since it only details material which they already owned and had use of?
Quote:
is it not possible for a legal department to advocate that since the legally own that information in the Appendicies for the purposes of film, that they have the right to other more detailed information that JRRT had also written up until that time and referred to by name or character or event in LOTR?
Quote:
I would remind you that the word Silmarallion was used by JRRT in the Appendicies to LOTR where he described many events of the First and Second Ages. That material from LOTR is owned as film rights by Saul Zaentz and New Line Cinema.
Quote:
Could not a case be made that it was Christopher Tolkien who - in your words - "used some sneaky way" of attempting to take back what his father had already sold?
Now, how have I misinterpreted your argument?
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 12:42 PM   #28
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
Again good sir, I ask you to please produce the quote where I made - in your words the astonishing claim that

Quote:
all the First and Second age material Tolkien ever wrote is somehow 'incorporated by reference' into the Appendices.


The quotes taken from my posts indicate that some material would be covered but I see nothing there going to the extreme position that you take in your quoted claim.

I stand ready to be corrected.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 01:22 PM   #29
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,473
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Then allow me to moderate the statement you take issue with.

As I understand you, you appear to be claiming that if the LR includes a brief sketch or synopsis of some tale or incident from the earlier history, than that tale or incident in all its forms, including, e.g., the full 25-page 'Of Beren and Luthien,' is 'incorporated by reference' into New Line's film rights.
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 01:33 PM   #30
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
Again sir, before we move on, you were in error and wrong when you stated that persons here were making this supposed argument

Quote:
The issue is the rather astonishing claim that all the First and Second age material Tolkien ever wrote is somehow 'incorporated by reference' into the Appendices.
I am more than happy to discuss this with you or anyone else and freely answer your questions. However, I do approach with some trepidation the opponent who somehow, someway and for some reason purposelly exaggerates my position to the point of absurdity and inviting ridicule. Lets us deal with things as they are please.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:15 PM   #31
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenamir View Post
My vote for the voice of Smaug: Michael Dorn -- give him a proper British accent and rough up the edges of that voice (Lt. Worf on Star Trek, for those not in-the-know), and it could be smooth and mysterious riddling with Bilbo, and wild and dangerous attacking Lake-Town. James Earl Jones is already too many great voices, Sean Connery has already voiced a dragon (Dragonheart), John Rhys-Davies is both Gimli and Treebeard, and Christopher Lee has already been marked in my mind as Saruman.

But please, please, don't get someone like the voice artist, whoever he was, who did Smaug in the Rankin-Bass version. (Aptly named -- "rank" means stinking, and "bass" is a fish.) That was simply dreadful.
It has to be someone who is known for pulling off sarcasm. Now there's a whole lot of people good at that around right now, unfortunately most of them presenters, which rules out say Charlie Brooker or the Top Gear team (as highly amusing and inappropriate as it would be to have Jeremy Clarkson voice Smaug... ), but one or two actors remain. Maybe Richard Wilson or Bill Nighy? David Tennant?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:18 PM   #32
Thenamir
Spectre of Capitalism
 
Thenamir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 982
Thenamir is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I, as you, would love to see David Tennant in almost anything (was rather surprised, in re-watching HP & The Goblet of Fire, to see Tennant there as Barty Crouch Jr.), but you'd have to do some digital magic to his voice in order for his high-tenor to sound serious and resonant enough for a lumbering giant of a man-bear.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
~~ Marcus Aurelius
Thenamir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:27 PM   #33
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
He could voice Smaug though (sorry - wasn't clear there!) as there's nothing to say that a Dragon has to have a deep, manly voice. He can 'do serious and scary' very well though as shown in the past series of Doctor Who. Speaking of which, John Barrowman would make a fabulous Elf!
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:33 PM   #34
Thenamir
Spectre of Capitalism
 
Thenamir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 982
Thenamir is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
My mistake entirely, for some reason I had Beorn on the brain. Smaug is indeed the context.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
~~ Marcus Aurelius
Thenamir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:41 PM   #35
Thenamir
Spectre of Capitalism
 
Thenamir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 982
Thenamir is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Let me eat a bit more crow, here, and make something a bit clearer. The two films, noted on a news story posted in another thread, will be "The Hobbit" proper, and the "sequel" film will cover what might be called Middle-Earth's "intertestamental" period, the 60 years from the end of the Hobbit to the beginning of FOTR.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
~~ Marcus Aurelius
Thenamir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 02:47 PM   #36
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,038
Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Well, if we are looking for a traditional 'deep, manly' voice full of power and authority without being too Darthish, there's the actor who voices Optimus Prime in Transformers. Peter Cullen? It's a good-guy resonating voice.


I just cannot see them doing The Hobbit proper in the first film and then making it all up for the second. I think it would work much better the other way around, so they could explain how TH is merely a slight deviance from the Legendarium in the first, and then to TH proper in the second. Better box office that way, leaving the solid Tolkien stuff to the last. I bet they could get davem to do a good job of it, too, stringing TH into The Silm.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 03:47 PM   #37
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry View Post
Well, if we are looking for a traditional 'deep, manly' voice full of power and authority without being too Darthish, there's the actor who voices Optimus Prime in Transformers. Peter Cullen? It's a good-guy resonating voice.


I just cannot see them doing The Hobbit proper in the first film and then making it all up for the second. I think it would work much better the other way around, so they could explain how TH is merely a slight deviance from the Legendarium in the first, and then to TH proper in the second. Better box office that way, leaving the solid Tolkien stuff to the last. I bet they could get davem to do a good job of it, too, stringing TH into The Silm.
davem could be a good Smaug actually, as he's good at being sardonic And they're both Northern too*




*I'm having visions of Smaug in a flat cap...

All this talk of them making up extra stuff has me in fits. It could be a rare thing and be quite decent but the odds are that it risks turning the whole business into being something like a cruddy Middle-earth soap opera, such as so many sci-fi series turned into in the end with all their spin-offs.

I'm also not looking forwards to spending the rest of my whole life explaining to people "No! It's NOT in the books!"

Still, the machine rolls on in so many ways. More money to pay for Hollywood execs' supplies of disco dust and more grist for Tolkien fans to argue about.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 05:53 PM   #38
Sir Kohran
Wight
 
Sir Kohran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England, UK
Posts: 178
Sir Kohran has just left Hobbiton.
I'm actually not surprised by this; I didn't think that New Line could ever seriously try to go ahead with TH without Peter Jackson on board. That would be the equivalent of Allen and Unwin saying 'There will be more Middle-Earth stories, but Tolkien won't be writing them'. Anyhow this is the best news I've had today and probably all week, unless tomorrow they announce I've been selected to play Bard or something.

Good luck PJ!
__________________
'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'
Sir Kohran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 10:00 PM   #39
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Thenamir said:
Quote:
Let me eat a bit more crow, here, and make something a bit clearer. The two films, noted on a news story posted in another thread, will be "The Hobbit" proper, and the "sequel" film will cover what might be called Middle-Earth's "intertestamental" period, the 60 years from the end of the Hobbit to the beginning of FOTR.
Quick question for you. I understand them making "The Hobbit", but what kind of script are they able to come up with for "after the hobbit but before LotR"? If what you say is true, then how are they going to accomplish this because there really isn't a whole lot to say that could be put into a movie.

Unless of course one movie is about Bilbo and his journey and the other is about more about Gandalf, the white council, and Dul Guldor.
Orald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 10:42 PM   #40
THE Ka
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
THE Ka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: As with the flygja
Posts: 1,559
THE Ka has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via MSN to THE Ka
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might View Post
I mean RotK was one movie and that's one large novel, with three books in it. TH is much smaller and simply there isn't enough going on to make that possible.
I really, really hope they don't split it up. I am glad there is a balance of 'knowledgable' authority and money into this at the moment, (because golden compass was simply ruined and elements of mutliple books being missmatched was disastrous), but I've seen what happens when they take shorter works and try to split them. It's not pretty, and you go home with an ill feeling in your stomach and mind.

If they do split it, question is ultimately, where? There really isn't an ultimate cut off point in the book, simply if you think hard enough, because Tolkien didn't intend The Hobbit to be a series. At first he wasn't even sure of having LoTR connected, but thankfully that worked out . What makes it different is this, LoTR has points in between works, because of it's sheer size and effect. It's something that fits wonderfully well with such a work, with TH? No, not really.

I kindof understand adding some material at the end, to give the audience (those who haven't read LoTR yet, or are fuzzy) an indication as to how the two are related. With films, it is pretty much standard practice (as is seen at the beginning of FoTR).

The good thing I am happy about now is, if and when it comes out, I can take my mum and not have to explain it, since she's read TH and remembers it quite well. (Sorry, I am very happy at least about this... ).
Hopefully this is true with the general audience that sees The Hobbit, that they have read TH in their childhood, or taken a taste of it at least once, to get the warm and fuzzy feeling (or inevitably, the sore ear and jaw from having to explain it, thus leading to tiresome but enjoyable conversations... ) of seeing some form of respect towards it.

I dunno though, The Hobbit is absolutely one of my favourites, something I really cherish, I just hope that it is given more consideration in the time coming.
__________________
Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg?
Hevur tú reikađ líka sum eg,
í endaleysu tokuni?

Last edited by THE Ka; 12-19-2007 at 10:46 PM.
THE Ka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:23 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.