Sauron's ESP

[Gurthang]

How did the Dark Lord communicate with the Nazgul? I haven't thought about it that much, but it says that they were bound to his will. I don't know if that means he could telepathically talk to them over great distances, or if they just 'knew' what he wanted.

Any thoughts? Answers? Psychic knowledge about the truth?


Oh, while you're at it, tell me the meaning of life, please.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Telepathic? You seen to many movies.
Actually, I have never thought about it, but since they are in the "spirit realm", I would think distance is compressed, and it is easier to communicate. Or they all had their own palantir...

I think they are in a way a spawn of him so they are like a part of him like the ring is. They are tied to his will maybe in a way of servitude. They have no will of their own.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think it is safe to assume that Sauron can communicate somehow or another with the Nazgul when they are not around. The fact that the Nazgul felt that Frodo had claimed the Ring for himself at Mount Doom the instant that Sauron did would seem to legitimate the notion of some telephatic abilities between them, coupled with the fact that Sauron could, in the First Age at least, communicate through thought without spoken word.

[Olorin_TLA]

Actually, Tuor, this thread http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000492 shows that Tolkien did indeed have telepathy in his works. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Well, i am not saying that they could not communicate, only that it was not like the telepathy that you see in movies, it was more like they had the same will, and thus knew exactly what he (sauron) wanted them to do.
The only problem with having no free will is that you cannot do anything without your master telling you to. If Sauron was not focusing on a particular area, than the Nazgul could not be. However, we know that Nazgul can, in a way, search, which i would htink would be impossible without some free will. If not, sauron would have to expend energy to look at what all of the Nazgul were seeing, to see if it was what he wanted...
Anyway, this is why i think it is basically impossible for anything not to have some free will of its own, unless it is a robot. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
That probably made little sense, bu it is late and i am tired.

[The Perky Ent]

Mabey Sauron could somehow communicate with the Nazgul via the Palantir. Mabey the 9 are intune with the orb. Well...just a thought! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Eöl]

au contraire Tuor , they could actually 'reach out' to a mind in a certain extend.

and/or they could let flow their thoughts to and fro the mind, but as said in Lindil's post; you can only see what the other allows you to see

[Gurthang]

Sauron could communicate with them somehow, but I don't think it was telepathy. Also, they obviously could not know everything he wanted, or else they would not have needed the signal that told the Witch-king to start his assault on Minas Tirith.

That signal is what really throws me off. For a while I thought that maybe they knew so much of his will that they always knew what he wanted of them. That would explain how they were slaves to his will. But the signal throws that theory out the window.

Perhaps their rings had some link to Sauron, so that He could will them where he wanted, but could not tell them what to do.

Or maybe they did have some mini-palantiri.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Perhaps sauron could examine the palantir that he had and make devices that would allow him to communicate to them from the palantir, even if they could not talk to him, like a one way radio.

[Willow]

I don't think the mini-palantir theory is very feasible... if they lost them, the Nazgul would be guidanceless and not much of a threat. Also, the elves made the palantirs, and I can't imagine Sauron making anything that the elves did. He might be able to manage a mockery, but then, as I said, the Nazgul wouldn't have been as much of a threat. Remember they could sense the presence of the One Ring. If all their information came from sauron, that means that Sauron was able to sense the presence of the One Ring, and if that were so Frodo and Sam would never have made it to Mount Doom.
I think that they were bound to Sauron's will to do a certain task, but had limited free will within that task.

Oh and Gurthang, the meaning of life is 42. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

I'd say at a guess that it was something to do with their rings, though Tolkien is inconsistent about where they are; at one instance, it's said that "The Nine the Nazgul keep" but later it's implied that Sauron gathered all the rings to himself, and you'd think he would want them close to home. Not that important - whether the Nazgul are wearing the rings or not, they can probably feel things through them - more emotional than telepathic, though. I doubt they really use words much.

No mini-palantiri, though, I think. For most of the books, the Nazgul can't see. (The Witch-King could at the end, presumably, but he certainly wasn't able to earlier).

[Finwe]

In Fellowship of the Ring, Gandalf says that a bearer of a Ring of Power, especially a mortal bearer, would quickly fall under the sway of the Dark Lord, and be mentally (and physically) enslaved to him. In a sense, that would make them "extensions" of Sauron, almost like extra limbs, albeit with a limited amount of free will. For example, your mind has control over your hand, but your hand can have random muscle spasms that your mind can't control. I think the Sauron-Nazgul relationship was like that.

[Lhunardawen]

Possibly. But the palantir are definitely out, for there are only 7 of them, and they were all accounted for. I think it is really their will being bound to Sauron's, for they know all of his plans. When Sauron felt the Ring in Mordor, the Nazgul flew hurriedly towards Mount Doom, for they knew exactly what they should do and what his will calls them to do. While for the others, it seemed that they were confused because Sauron's will "left" them.

That is just my opinion, though.

[Olorin_TLA]

The Signal may have had other effects...it cetainly was awe-inspiring, which does wodners for morale of an army.

[Gurthang]

Thanks Olorin, I hadn't thought of that. You're saying the signal was unneccesary, and was just for show. That is quite a good thought.

I don't think that the mini-palantir theory is credible at all(but who knows). But Tuor is correct in the idea that Sauron did copy after the elves. His making of the Ring was completely founded on the knowledge of the elves, who made the first magical rings.

Here's a new thought: the books say that Frodo could hear Galandriel's voice inside his head. Perhaps distance is somewhat compressed in the spirit world, so that Sauron could use this thought-speak method with the Nazgul.

P.S. I might be getting mixed up with book and movie about Galandriel, but the theory is still credible. Oh, and thank you, Willow, for fully answering the question(although I disagree).

[Finwe]

I don't think that you're getting mixed up. I think that Galadriel "talked" to Frodo in his mind in the book also.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

The palantiri theory is definitely out of the question... I am inclined to believe the theory that the Nazgul were like extensions of saurons body.
However, i must add to this that they had to have more free will than that of a muscle spasm. This is just my belief.

[Finwe]

I didn't literally mean a "muscle spasm." It was a general comparison. What I meant to get across was that the Nazgul had a lot less free will than Sauron did.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

OK. with that i can agree.

[Lathriel]

However the Nazgul kinda lived in the Spirit world like Sauron. So maybe they had a different way of communicating in the spirit world.

[Finwe]

Hmm... that could work also. Perhaps Sauron used a sort of Osanwë to communicate with the Nazgul. It might have worked in this situation.

[zb]

I can't help but thinking of various passages where Frodo 'feels' an external will telling him to put on the Ring, eg:

And as he waited, he felt, more urgent that ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. ("The Stairs of Cirith Ungol", TT)

That said, Frodo cannot be fully controlled by this external will, as the passage goes on to say:

Then his own will stirred; slowly it forced the hand back and set it to find another thing, a thing lying hidden near his breast.

In this case, there is a tension between Frodo's will and the command. Frodo is aware of what he wants to do (not put on the ring, for he "knew that the Ring would only betray him") but it takes a while for his will to kick in, and in this time he starts to obey the command ("It took his hand, and as Frodo watched with his mind ... it moved his hand inch by inch towards the chain upon his neck").

It doesn't seem to be clear whether the command Frodo receives is from the Ring Wraith of Sauron himself. If the command is from the wraith alone, then maybe all this shows is that wraiths aren't quite strong enough to bend Frodo's will.

If, however, it comes from Sauron, then it seems that it is possible to resist his will if it goes againt one's own. Perhaps this means that Sauron convinced the Nine that they wanted to do his will (without esp/whatever) so that they would be 'receptive' to his will. Perhaps the rings weakened their own wills.

Perhaps my whole post is pure speculation which will be dismissed by someone better-read than me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And of course, this doesn't answer anything really about the 'mechanics' of how Sauron could impose his will on others.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Well, i don't know, but it seems to me that the ring-wraiths were receptive to his will because they had accepted the rings from him as a gift, of sorts, and were somewhat servants of him before they got the rings; at least this is my understanding.

[Olorin_TLA]

[Roar]

OSANWE!!! There's even a link to the article! It expilcitly deals with "telepathy", and is by Tolkien!!!

[/Roar]

[mark12_30]

A couple of points.

Osanwe is similar to telepathy, but do read the article Olorin kindly provided! It will answer many of your questions.

Sauron was a Maia, and osanwe was their first method of communication going back to before they incarnated into bodily forms at all. Remember it was elves (quendi -> speakers) that invented lauguage. Valar/maiar used osanwe til they learned language from the elves. Valar and Maiar are more used to osanwe. I'm sure Sauron was skilled at it.

Secondly, remember Sauron's main mode of ooperation was domination of the will (for which, again, he probably made use of osanwe or something similar to it.) The real power of the Ring is to dominate the will of others; that is its function. But even without it, Sauron was still dominating the will of those under him. When Frodo at the Sammath Naur puts on the Ring and claims it for himself, Sauron's attention is diverted from his armies-- and without his will focused on them, they falter. It was his will driving them on all along, and without it, they quail. From RotK, Mount Doom: (the italics are mine) :

And far away, as Frodo put thon the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the power in Barrad-Dur was shaken... From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nasgul, the ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:45 PM January 04, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Rosenberg]

I was just going to suggest the "fingers" theory of Finwe, except I always thought of this knowledge of Sauron's will as more of an intuitive devise that allowed a limited degree of creative free will. Sort of like telling your employee to do so-and-so, but not specifying how you want it done. Not that I'm saying Sauron couldn't give very specific instructions if he needed to. The exact moment to attack, for instance. Hence the signal.

[Olorin_TLA]

Well in the account in Unfinished Tales of the Hunt for the Ring, the Nazgul do act as if they have their own minds, (to an extent - see below [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) as the With King gives them orders, they act independantly of each other, they have to return to the Witch King, etc.

However, it seems that any and all independance they have can only be used for furthering the cause of Sauron - there's no chance of individual goals or betrayal in there.

[Gurthang]

Osanwe? That is not a term I have heard before.(or maybe I forgot) If I am correct, it sounds kinda like that thought-speak thing I was suggesting.

Am I right?

[mark12_30]

On Osanwe, Olorin provided this link above. I will provide it again, but it is the same link, and Olorin should be credited for supplying it:

A review: JRRT's Osanwe-Kenta [ missing bit of The Silm.]

The thread-owner is lindil, who I consider The Osanwe Expert.

This raises another question.

If I just had to have the answer to this (or any similar) question, how would I aproach researching it?

First I'd look for evidence in the "three main works": Hobbit, LotR, Silm.

Then the appendices.

Then "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", an aboslutely indispensable asset to any serious Tolkien fan. He discusses all kinds of obscure topics. The book comes with comes with a very handy and usable index. If you want to know what Tolkien was thinking, and you don't have a copy-- you wantsss it, you neeeeedssss it, precioussss.

Then I'd look in the Histories (History of Middle-Earth, HoME.) For information in HoME books that I don't have, I will grovel and beg for the answers from somebody like lindil, Sharku, Mr. Underhill, Sharon... you get the idea.

If after all this you're still stuck, then there are the very obscure articles and books that TOlkien wrote. But odds are if you've gotten this far and not found the answer, then consider asking a different question.

So, if you haven't got it yet, put "Letters of J. R, R. Tolkien" on your wish list.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:06 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Gilbo]

I think that there is a two part answer to this question: Osanwe and malice of will.
The Nazgul are not bereft of free will.They are capable of independent action.So long as their actions are, overall, in the service of Sauron, the methods that they use are at their own discretion. Osanwe is the way in which Sauron communicates the specifics of the actions,as in "Find Baggins!". Terrorizing Farmer Maggot is just incidental to the action, but allowed, even encouraged, in the scheme of things. Just so long as these actions don't hinder, or overshadow, the original directive.
They have been bound to Sauron through the Rings and through their OWN evil choices so that they are incapable of independent thought. Their thoughts,as are Saurons, are bent on recovering the ring. Their emotions are only cold hatred of all things.
Trolls, as evidenced by "The Hobbit", would much rather be toasting bits of mutton than bashing Hobbits; and Orcs, also as evidenced by "The Hobbit", prefer overwhelming odds in secret and ambushing in the dark, to open combat with a well armed enemy. Saurons ability to magnify, and direct, their basic hatred of things good is what drives them. When his attention is forced elsewhere, they falter. Don't get me wrong, there is still plenty of fight left in them, but they were more able and willing to cut and run. Consenting creatures don't need to be driven with a whip. I'm sure some of the fellows felt that they could hate Elves, Dwarves, and Men quite well from waaaaaay over there behind that rock.
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]