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12-13-2004, 03:40 AM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard
This is a long chapter, and as the upcoming holidays (and the release of RotK EE! ) are keeping us all busy, we will take two or three weeks to discuss it. (The next chapter thread will go up the last Monday of the old year or the first Monday of the new year, depending on how active this thread is in the meantime.)
This is the third chapter in which we are introduced to a new people of Middle-earth, after the Riders of Rohan and the Uruk-Hai. The Ents are a unique creation of Tolkien's, not taken from folklore or previous myths, as other creatures are. As a matter of fact, he wrote that he himself was surprised by their appearance! Here's the small print quote (in its entirety, since not everyone has access to the Letters) from Letter #163: Quote:
And what about the Entwash itself? After the hobbits drank from its water, they were not only refreshed (normal reaction) but their hearts were cheered, and "the cuts and sores of their captivity had healed and their vigour had returned." The conversations have a special charm, with too many quotable lines to mention in one post. I'd like to mention a few of my favorites: the name conversation "...it is easier to shout stop! than to do it!" "But if we stayed at home and did nothing, doom would find us anyway, sooner or later." (This reminds me of Éowyn's statement that those who do not use the sword can still die by it.) There are lovely descriptions: "...stars were shining already in lakes between shores of cloud."; the tantalizing comparison between Ents and Trolls; the mention of Saruman’s corruption; and two different Ent characters that we get to know more closely. Add to that the poignant sadness of the relationship gone wrong between Ents and Entwives, and there's much food for thought and discussion here!
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12-13-2004, 08:07 AM | #2 | ||||||||
Laconic Loreman
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I love how Tolkien brings out the Entish Race. He describes the Ents more as a "human," than as a tree-like being, and that's what I like about it.
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Another thing, Tolkien influences on the Ent's eyes, throughout this whole chapter. I haven't figured this out yet. First, Quote:
Quote:
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Some smaller things I wanted to point out were the Entwives, and the historian. I don't know if anyone on these forums believe this, but a common thought is Ents are slow and dumb. Slow, yes, because they like to go into deep thought. But not dumb, they were cured from their dumbness. If you look in this chapter, I am amazed how knowledgeable (it's a word now) Treebeard is, he is almost like a historian. He knows of the days long gone, when "woods filled the world," he remembers days when Celeborn was younger, he knows quite a bit about Saruman (eventhough he won't admit it). The entwives is a sad story. I think the fact that their are "walking trees" spotted around the Shire, and Treebeard did say the Entwives would enjoy the Shire, would give some solid evidence the the Ents around the Shire are Entwives. However, Tolkien doesn't answer this question (atleast to my knowledge), and there's still room for doubt, if you ask me. They are Entwives . I think the moral behind the story of the Entwives is, that if you let go, or let slip past the people you care about, they could let you go . Lastly, one quick comment. Treebeard says... Quote:
Edit: Estelyn, you got me thinking again! (mutters of "darnit") Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Boromir88; 12-13-2004 at 08:20 AM. |
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12-13-2004, 02:14 PM | #3 | |||
Beloved Shadow
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I've got my book out now and I'm just going to type as I read. This will result in real-time random ramblings, but maybe I will say something that will spark a discussion amongst those who aren't taking a bunch of finals this week (people who have time to organize their thoughts).
First, as Boro pointed out, there's this whole metal versus nature thing going on here. Note the ent-draught and Elrond's cordial versus the burning liquid the orcs gave Merry and Pip, as well as Elrond's healing skill and the healing virtues of the Entwash versus the paste the orcs put on Merry's wound. But what about the manner in which the hobbits were carried? The orcs- Quote:
But here's how Treebeard carried the Halflings- Quote:
Did Tolkien mean for us to compare the two situations? Was he saying "Industry and nature can both take you someplace, but with nature the ride is more comfortable"? And was anyone else captured by a desire to see the darker parts of Fangorn? Quote:
I don't know why I'm so fascinated by this. It's sort of like the way Pippin was drawn to the well in Moria, or to the palantir. And does anyone know- did Tolkien ever see the great sequoias of California? I saw them years ago and still remember them clearly. Did Tolkien get his ideas for the giant mallorn trees from the sequoias? They also could've given inspiration for Fangorn. The Hobbits note how "treeish" Fangorn is. The sequoia groves are similar in the way the trees are absolutely the dominant force. Well, I've really got to get back to work now. If I have time I'll post more thoughts later.
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12-13-2004, 11:08 PM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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As for entwives north of the Shire, that seems rather unlikely:
In "Letters #144: Quote:
seems an instance of "blame" accruing to both sides, rather reminiscent of the long-term hostility of elves and dwarves, similarly with "blame" being possible to attribute to either side.
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12-14-2004, 03:02 PM | #5 | |
Haunting Spirit
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A very interesting note concerning this chapter can be found in a footnote of the Letter #163:
Quote:
Speaks for itself, I think. ;-)
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12-14-2004, 08:20 PM | #6 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Room tum, room tum, roomty toom tum ...
I find it interesting that this Chapter opens with some slightly conflicting messages in its description of Fangorn Forest. Merry and Pippin feel a "queer stifling feeling" come over them, but they are refreshed (and indeed healed) by the waters of the Entwash. The forest is dim and stuffy, yet it feels to Pippin like an old Hobbity room. It does not look or feel like Bilbo's description of Mirkwood (a pretty fearsome place), but the Hobbits don't imagine it to be a place for animals - or indeed Hobbits.
Pippin's comparison of the place to "the old room in the Great Smials" suggests to me that he does not feel threatened by it, but that he sees it as somewhere where he shouldn't be, like a child playing somewhere where he has been told not to go. An old room used by adults that is out of bounds, but nevertheless somehow comforting. Indeed, Pippin feels that he "almost likes the place". And when Treebeard first speaks to them, it does not come across as threatening. It does, of course, come as a surprise (both to Hobbits and the reader), an effect which Tolkien achieves by starting a paragraph with his unbidden response to Pippin's comment. There is, perhaps, a moment of tension in the reference to Treebeard as "almost Troll-like". But it is quickly dispelled by the remainder of the description and, in particular, the reference to Pippin's subsequent attempts to describe his first impression of Treebeard’s eyes (suggesting that he will come to no danger here) and to his initial feeling of fear quickly disappearing. Like Pippin (and indeed Tolkien himself), we are amazed, rather than concerned, at the Ent's sudden introduction into the story. I find all this interesting, because Tolkien could have used this moment to suspenseful effect: a giant, Tree-like being suddenly comes to life right next to the two young Hobbits. But he does not. We are very soon assured that Treebeard is a friend, or at least not someone who poses a threat to Merry and Pippin (having thankfully not mistaken them for small Orcs). And the fact that he does not use this as an excuse for a moment of tension suggests to me that, once he decided who Treebeard was (not, for example, an evil giant), he was quite concerned to portray him sympathetically right from the outset. As for the slightly contradictory descriptions of the forest, these tie in with Treebeard's subsequent comments about its "hollow dales ... where the Darkness has never been lifted". There is both good and evil in this forest, so Tolkien steers away from portraying it as either too safe on the one hand, or too forbidding on the other. It occurred to me that, in the absence of Hobbits from Treebeard's list of the free peoples and in Merry's rueful comment that: Quote:
I do wonder, however, why this Chapter (as well as the previous one and, as I recall, those concerning Isengard) focusses primarily on Pippin's point of view, rather than Merry's. Is there something in Pippin's character that makes him a more suitable vehicle for observation of the events that they experience? Is this perhaps linked to the idea of Pippin being the more intuitive, the more "feeling", of the two? Finally, I cannot let this Chapter go without commenting on the tragic story of the Ents and the Entwives. Quite apart from adding flavour and background to the Ents, it does seem to me that Tolkien is building on an earlier theme here, one that he hints at in the Letter quoted by Esty and A_Brandybuck above: Quote:
Quote:
This leads me to think of the conflict that occurred between the Hobbits of the Shire and the denizens of the Old Forest, starting with the encroachment of the trees on Buckland and culminating in the events which led to the Bonfire Glade. The same conflict, albeit emotional rather than physical, features in the differing approaches that leads to the estrangement of the Ents and the Entwives. Treebeard, however, is clearly no Old Man Willow (although the suggestion is that there are worse things living in those dark hollow vales, and Pippin himself makes the point that Ents are not "quite as safe and, well, funny as they seem"). In the earlier discussion, I speculated whether, in Treebeard, we have someone who has learned a lesson that Old Man Willow has not: the necessity of living in harmony with his fellow inhabitants of Middle-earth. And perhaps it is the Ents' estrangement from the Entwives that has taught them this lesson. It is interesting though that, in the differing (conflicting) attitudes of the Ents and Entwives (and as indicated in the Letter quoted above), Tolkien is suggesting that the difference here is between "male" and "female" attitudes to nature. Although it is a generalisation, there does seem to be something in this. I would hazard a guess, for example, that nicely ordered gardens appeal more to women, whereas men prefer nature in its wild, untamed state. On the other hand, on a more general level, men's brains do seem to be more prone to ordering and commanding, while the female brain might be described as being more passive and intuitive (and therefore, perhaps, more in touch with nature). (Before any feminists (or their male equivalents) start throwing fruit (whether it be wild or cultivated ) at me, I am, as I said, generalising here.) For some interesting thoughts on this issue, however, see: Are you an Ent or an Entwife? In any event, I wonder which approach Tolkien felt more drawn towards. It seems to me that he had some sympathy for both. Neither the Ents nor the Entwives are portrayed as being "wrong", although the description of the Entwives' approach (involving, as it does, a rejection of love of something for its own sake) is perhaps the less sympathetic. And, while he had what might be described as an "unpossessive love” of trees, Tolkien also had a great deal of time for the landscape of rural England which was (and is), like the Shire, tamed to quite a considerable degree. So it seems quite possible to me that, in both The Old Forest Chapter and in this Chapter, with the tale of the Ents and the Entwives, he is working through his own feelings and attitudes to nature. Hmm (or should I say Hroom). And I thought that this was going to be a short one.
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12-15-2004, 10:06 PM | #7 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
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12-16-2004, 07:47 AM | #8 |
Animated Skeleton
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Middle Earth Forests
I noticed last night that there's something strange about the forests of Middle Earth. There are three forests mentioned by name between The Hobbit and LotR, and all three are forboding and dangerous. One, the Great Forest outside the Shire even possesses a sort of living malenvolence - a shared vegitation memory, if you will, of past injustices. It is described as forcing the Hobbits down the valley towards Old Man Willow.
In The Hobbit, Mirkwood is similarly dangerous, if not with the intellegence of The Old Forest. The Dwarves are warned not to stray from the path for any reason, and to take enough food and water for the entire trip. Now, the elves of Mirkwood may have a different experience, but from the outside it is certainly a dangerous place. On the trip back, even Beorn and Gandalf take the northern route around the forest, rather than through it. Bilbo's description, passed down to Merry and Pippen was as a place all "dark and black, and the home of dark black things." Lastly, Fangorn is described as "dim and frightfully treeish. You can't imagine animals living here at all, or staying for long." It is a definitely unsettling place. I liked Saucy's description of children playing in a room in the house they knew they were not permitted in. But even Treebeard admits there are places in Fangorn where the darkness has never completely lifted. Has anyone else wondered at Treebeard being call the oldest living thing, but then he himself describes tress in these dark hollows as even older than he is? Or maybe I'm misremembering Gandalf's description of him. Now, in the Silmarillion, there are different experiences with named forests. Doriath is a great example. At the same time, the Silm is written essentially from an elvish perspective, so the view of the forests would be accordingly more benevolent. Some food for thought.
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12-16-2004, 08:04 AM | #9 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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The oldest ... ?
Quote:
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12-16-2004, 08:05 AM | #10 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Good conclusions Aldarion, I also think Tolkien is trying to draw connections to Bombadil and Treebeard.
They are two of the oldest members of Middle-earth. Bombadil teaches the Hobbits that there is much more to the world then the Shire. Treebeard is as I posted earlier, like a historian, he tells Merry and Pippin about the older days. They both have disrupted speaking habbits. Bombadil pops out into rhymes and his "dol's", Treebeard breaks up his sentences with "hrum, hoom." They both live in a forest that is perilous, but yet the Hobbits find comfort with these two characters. In contrasting, Tom Bombadil is more upbeat, busy and fast. Where Treebeard is like "don't be hasty...don't be hasty." Quote:
So, they both help the Hobbits understand Middle-earth better, and mature, but one cares about Middle-earth, the other cares about his own things he needs to get done. |
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12-16-2004, 08:10 AM | #11 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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With pleasure:
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12-16-2004, 08:37 AM | #12 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...
As for Treebeard's reference to the trees in the dark hollows that were even older than he, perhaps, like Old Man Willow, they were not able to walk. Edit: There are a few threads on this. Here are two of them: Who’s the oldest? Who’s the oldest? (2)
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12-16-2004, 08:54 AM | #13 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition. When fully awoke and able to hum-burarum-ram-roms and similar, it is allegedly more alive than before, drowsy as it was, but it were not dead matter, it were 'alive and kicking', though dumb and speechless.
Besides, does Cirdan walk per se? He rather sits on his wossname most of the time, on the very brim of ME. And another besides - it may be mere slip of the tongue on Gandalf's part - he may have not remembered exeptions right on the spot, or maybe he was reluctant to break an impression of antiquity he was working up in his listeners etc. It would have been lecture rather than recollection if it ran as follows: he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing, apart from Iarwain, who is [insert appropriate here] and therefore older, and Cirdan, who was born, as you may know, by lake Cuivienen, which is now lost, that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth And the third besides (being a speculation, rather than statement): Cirdan is an elf - therefore his life would last as long as Arda lasts, even if he's killed and goes to Aman. Tom is unknown entity (whatever my personal opinions), but allegedly not bound by such a trifle as death. Ents, on the other hand, are similar to humans in ageing and dying, which may take a long time, but the process is evident - Ents are old, some of them die, and all of them will die out unless the Entwives be found. So, it may be that Gandalf has mental proviso, including that class of creatures (dying with true death), and that's among those is Treebeard the oldest - for obviously, Tom is an exeption and elves are special. EDIT. Just another 'walking' thought (supporting third 'besides') - Gandalf is incarnate, therefore living being, and by that he may be the older one - but he does not draw himself in, neither Saruman, nor Radagast - i.e. different class of beings does not count. So I proclaim speculation plausible END OF EDIT cheers
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12-16-2004, 08:59 AM | #14 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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A dilly with which to dally
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An authority no less than Tom himself tells the hobbits: Quote:
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12-16-2004, 09:01 AM | #15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The difference in forests in the bulk of Middle-earth, as opposed to
Beleriand and Numenor- which hold no apparent significant evil- is interesting, Fangorn's etc. evil due to the influence of Morgoth and Sauron? For example, about the Bay of Eldanna: Quote:
the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron
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12-16-2004, 09:11 AM | #16 |
Laconic Loreman
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Wonderful quote Bethberry, maybe there is no slip up in the proof-reading of Christopher Tolkien. Maybe, it's simply pointing out that Gandalf himself made a slip up. I agree with SpM, that Gandalf is one of the more trusted peoples from LOTR, but he even makes his slip ups. Denethor is right when saying Gandalf doesn't know everything, I think Gandalf is more reliable then Denethor, but Gandalf has made some occasional slip ups. Even some of the most reliable sources of info can make wrong judgements (as I'm sure we are well aware of).
This right here is what makes Tolkien interesting to read. With all these POV's you got to pick out who is more reliable, one or the other. There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf. |
12-16-2004, 09:42 AM | #17 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I think I just found a reasonable argument to solve this question. But, of course, I am open to debate .
In Bethberry's quote: Quote:
Where Treebeard's account of "time" only goes to when Middle-earth was filled with forests: Quote:
One quick observation, I think there are a lot of simularities between Lorien and Fangorn. Quote:
Celeborn instructs the Fellowship to not go into Fangorn. Where Treebeard says "And I might have same, if you had been going the other way. Do not risk getting entangled in the woods of Laurelindorenan!" Last edited by Boromir88; 12-16-2004 at 09:49 AM. |
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12-16-2004, 09:55 AM | #18 | ||||
Corpus Cacophonous
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I go along with your theory as far as Ainur and Tom are concerned, HI, but I am not sure that it entirely explains the inconsistency as far as Elves are concerned. Perhaps, as you suggest, Gandalf was just talking in "shorthand". Quote:
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But there is much more to discuss in this Chapter. I would, for example, be interested to hear other views on the tale of the Entwives, Tolkien's "male v female approach" comment in his letter and how this all relates back to the Old Forest Chapter and Tolkien's own views on nature (wild v tamed). Also, why the focus on Pippin rather than Merry? Finally: Quote:
EDIT: Cross-posting with Boro's edit, expressing a different view. I agree with you on that one point, although I suspect that Lorien does not have the deep dark hollows that Fangorn has (and which are reminiscent of the Old Forest).
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12-16-2004, 10:01 AM | #19 |
Laconic Loreman
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The reason I go with Glorfindel, atleast over Gandalf the "grey," would be since Glorfindel's death I think he learned a lot. I believe what he says in The Council of Elrond to be quite accurate, although it's just suposition. Maybe, not necesarrily more then Gandalf the White, since I also believe Gandalf learned a lot from his death, and reincarnation, but it's just a matter of opinions .
You might be right about Treebeard, since he does "shut himself," into Fangorn, and for countless amounts of years stayed out of the wars, saying it was for Elves, Men and wizards. And he didn't have much care, besides for Fangorn, that could cast in some doubt. I take his knowledge about Saruman to be accurate, since he used to spend time with the guy . |
12-16-2004, 11:27 AM | #20 | |
Beloved Shadow
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Isn't there a difference? Ents came from Yavanna's thought. Eru told her (through Manwe) that at the same time the elves woke up, her thoughts would awaken and summon spirits from afar to go and dwell in some of the plants and animals. So ents have a fea and woke up at the same time as the first elves. But this doesn't mean that the elves couldn't have roused trees from their sleep. Tolkien said that animals could be raised to a higher level and taught to speak, but that speaking does not necessarily indicate a soul. So talking trees are basically just animals that got raised to a higher level by the elves. Ents, however, have feas, and were already awake before the elves came walking by. Does this work for everyone?
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12-17-2004, 05:51 AM | #21 | |||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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I’m later than usual for this thread & a lot of important points have already been made. Its difficult to know where to begin. As this is a long chapter, & we have a couple of weeks to go into it, I’ll take it bit by bit. First off:
Its clear at least, that the LotR Ents appeared first, & that Tolkien wrote them back into theSil. In HoME we find him speculating on their origin: Quote:
So, Tolkien has invented the Ents, but hasn’t come up with an account of them. It seems like he knew they were there, but had no idea where they had come from. In fact, in letter 157 he says: Quote:
Whatever, Tolkien, through Treebeard, does have something interesting to say about tom Bombadil: Quote:
It seems Treebeard feels that it is important to be an active participant in the world - Bombadil is in the wrong as far as the Ent is concerned, because while he may not have done anything bad, he hasn’t done any good, either. Yet Treebeard himself has been passive enough in his own land up to this point, & has to be stirred up to take action. Treebeard seems to think a lot, but he isn’t a great doer. And he doesn’t have Bombadil’s excuse, either. Another interesting tidbit from HoME, perhaps tying it into the Lorien theme, is Treebeard’s comment on the distance he has carried Merry & Pippin to his Ent-house: Quote:
But to the actual chapter under discussion. Th efirst thing that struck me was Treebeard’s statement: Quote:
Quote:
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The other interesting thing about Entish names is that they are very often incomplete or unfinished. The ‘right name’ of a person or thing is their story, & it continues to change & develop as long as their ‘story’ (their life or existence) goes on. Perhaps it doesn’’t even attain a final form even then - not if their acts or one time existence continue to have repercussions after they’ve gone. Its easy to understand Treebeard’s confusion over Pippin’s statement about Gandalf’s fall: Quote:
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When a thing’s ‘right name’ is forgotten, its story is lost, & then it becomes worthless. It is only the Ents who keep those stories alive - even the Elves have developed other concerns. Ents are the ‘record keepers’ of Middle earth, & something vital will be lost with their passing. Its easy to overlook that - that the Ent’s role in Middle earth is to be its ‘living memory’ - & see their passing as a tragedy for them alone. It isn’t. Its a loss for the whole of Middle earth & everyone in it, because the ‘stories’ that make up ‘Middle earth’ are the stories of its people, places & things, & the only ones who know those stories are the Ents. The right names of things, their stories, will be forgotten, & those things will then begin to lose any sense of their real value & their unique identity. The Ent’s tragedy is Middle earth’s tragedy, because their passing will inevitably bring about its passing. Middle earth will become the world we know, precisely because there are no Ents who know every ‘thing’s’ ‘right name’,& are able to tell it’s story. No ‘right name’ means no true story, & no true story means no uniqueness, no meaning. We are witnessing the beginning of a terrible loss - even greater in some ways for the world than the loss of the Elves - but we may not realise it, because the form it takes is the dying out of a bunch of strange walking & talking trees. |
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12-17-2004, 01:01 PM | #22 | ||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Back to my first post about the "green light," within Treebeard's eyes, as well as Bregalad. Perhaps the "green light" is the Ent spirit, or symbolism of the Ents being a race that is fading away. When the Hobbits first see Treebeard... Quote:
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Quote:
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The Ents, as davem has pointed out, don't have Bombadil's excuse to stay out of things. When the Ents have their chance to help Middle-earth, there is a chance that the Ents will be remembered, represented by the "green flame," and "shining eyes." If the Ents pull a Bombadil, then they will fade away, they won't be remembered, and their green flame reduces to a green light, and fades away, deeper into their eyes. Sorry, if it seems a bit jumbled, but the thought just came to me, and I'm spewing it out . |
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12-17-2004, 01:08 PM | #23 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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Are Elves less interested in themselves than Men? When did that happen? The Elves of the First Age certainly couldn’t be said to be uninterested in themselves. If Treebeard is right this must be something that has happened to the Elves of Middle earth over time. And yet to what extent have they grown uninterested in themselves? Their chief concern seems to be departing into the West, leaving Middle earth forever. This does not seem to imply a lack of self interest. In fact, the Elves of Lorien in particular seem pretty much self obsessed, with not much interest in the outside world, or anything but their living dream. Again, what does he mean when he says that Men are more changeable, quicker at taking on the colour of the outside - in fact, [i]what is that supposed to mean when its at home? ‘Taking on the colour of the outside’? does it mean that Men are too swayed by ‘surfaces’, by image, or that they are more prone to be swept along by ‘fashions’ & trends, carried along by the crowd, the concerns of the moment? And does this give any insight into Treebeard’s words about the Elves? Does he mean that Elves are not concerned with themselves as a power, a force for change & domination within Middle earth any longer? Elves are no longer thinking of themselves as having a role in Middle earth. They have turned inwards, focussed on their individual destinies, not on the destiny of Middle earth. That role has passed to Men. Yet Treebeard’s judgement of Men’s new role doesn’t seem too high. The Elves have succumbed & accepted their destiny, but they are not up to it apparently, as far as Treebeard is concerned. They will probably make a mess of things. In his opinion (understandably perhaps) the Ents are better than Elves or Men. They are more consistent than the Elves - they ‘have their feet on the ground’ (or in it), - & are less fickle than Men, less prone to wandering off looking for pastures new. For an Ent the grass is never greener on the other side of the fence. The Ents are deeply ‘rooted’ both in the earth, & in the past. This is probably because their language is a language of ‘’right names’, which tells the stories of the earth & the beings which inhabit it. Every story is worth hearing & telling for the Ents. Their constancy is the constancy of the storyteller who tells his story through, even if there is no-one to hear it. The storytelling traditon is very old, & there’s an account of one traditional storyteller from the West of Scotland told in Rees’ ‘Celtic Heritage’ in the aftermath of the appearance of TV & Radio: Quote:
Treebeard is lamenting the fact that no-one loves the woods as he does - we could probably extend that & say that no-one loves the plants & animals & people of Middle earth as he does, because no-one knows their stories as he does - & even he is forgetting - he cannot remember the rhymes of lore. Perhaps the Ents will finally die out not through grief or sickness, as with Elves, or through natural mortailty as with Men & other races, but through forgetfulness. They wiil forget, slowly, all their lore, all their true stories, & return to what they had been, before they were awakened & taught to speak the ‘right names’ of things. As for the Entwives, it would seem that the deep difference between them is that while the Ents want to discover & tell the stories of things the way they are, the Entwives want to change the stories, adapt them to suit their own temperament: Quote:
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12-17-2004, 01:45 PM | #24 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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And then what happens to trees for commercial reasons? They are cut down and in the rings we really can read the story of the times those trees have lived through - we can work out what years were dry, which were wet, which years the tree suffered damage. But when we read those tales it is too late, and that tree is alas dead, and will never tell any more stories of our times or anyone else's.
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12-17-2004, 02:50 PM | #25 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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12-17-2004, 03:58 PM | #26 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
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Or, "better at getting inside other things" could refer to the way they both could communicate with and understand the trees. |
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12-20-2004, 07:45 AM | #27 |
Deadnight Chanter
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some spices for the soup
See also The oldest people of ME? by Sharkû
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
12-20-2004, 03:45 PM | #28 | ||
Late Istar
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Davem wrote:
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12-27-2004, 09:24 AM | #29 | |||
Relic of Wandering Days
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Just a few quick comments.
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As for the elves being less interested in themselves, maybe this can be true in a sense. I think their experience in ME had been a rather humbling one and you don’t seem to have the same ambition in them as once was there. Quote:
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One last impression. I am running on the intuitive side as usual…. Regarding Entwives. I can’t help getting a rather sinister feeling in the description of them. All this talk of order and orders reminds me terribly of Saruman’s pitch to Gandalf. The ends justify the means. Really I feel quite unsympathetic to them, and wonder if it is unintentional, simply a result of viewing them through an Ent’s eyes. But there is no mention of the concern of the Entwives for their charges. They nurture it is true, but in a rather bizarre and stunting way. I could imagine a great revolt in the orchard if the elves ever woke those trees! And a pile of mulch where the Entwives once stood! Quite a contrast with Quickbeam and his rowans! |
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12-27-2004, 12:33 PM | #30 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Elves may of course consider the nature of death in Men, but Elves also seem to keep themselves separate from Men in Middle Earth - and I often think that this is to spare them the grief which will inevitably arise from all too brief friendships with Men. A good example of a friendship between Elves and mortals is that between Legolas and Gimli - inevitably, that friendship will come to a halt when Gimli reaches the end of his days - leaving Legolas to face an eternity of grief. It would be like having a best friend for only a week of your entire life. I think that for Ents, much the same would happen. Perhaps this is one reason why they isolate themselves within Fangorn. But for most Elves, living separate from Men, not facing death, having no end, there would be all the time and the space to consider other matters; perhaps this is why Elves have the time to teach Ents to speak. This will be why Elves spend time thinking about the essential nature of other creatures and other species; they have the time for it, and they do not need to consider their own ends. Now consider Saruman - he too is immortal, like Elves and Ents but his time in Middle Earth is limited. He works quickly, he studies quickly, he destroys the woodlands and builds up his forces quickly. Saruman only has so long to do what he must do - or wants to do. And to an Ent he would indeed be young - and very hasty. Thinking about this brings up another question: Are Ents immortal? Are we presuming this? What happens to an aged Ent? Does he become more treelike, eventually ceasing to move altogether? And if he does, is he still an Ent?
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12-28-2004, 05:36 AM | #31 |
Relic of Wandering Days
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Very nice thoughts on Elves Lalwendë ! And it rings very true as well.
But I am wondering now about the immortality of Ents. I take it that you question whether they have a doom of their own or go to some Undying Land. I would guess (mind you, it is a guess) that they are immortal, as Treebeard said, none have died, not from the inside. Where precisely they wind up is another matter, though. I don't think that they fall into the same catagory as either Elves or Men, so it is hard to think what would become of them. I should like to think of them sheparding trees in the blessed realm. It also occurred to me this morning, that there is a very weak parallel between the Ents and Entwives and the story of Cain and Abel, one shepards and one gardens, and in the end, the gardener heads east. Of course the Elves sing of the Entwives eventually meeting up with the Ents in the West again, and the Entwives didn't harm the Ents.... |
12-31-2004, 09:04 PM | #32 | |||
Animated Skeleton
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Ents vs. Tom: The Eldest
Since I sort of kicked off this discussion of the Ents vs. Tom Bombadill w/respect to age (at least in this thread), I thought I would add some rambling, barely coherent thoughts to the conversation. I think that the apparent contradiction between Treebeard and Tom both being the oldest living thing that walks the earth might simply be semantic. Let's first look at Gandalf's quote concerning Treebeard:
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So, how do we balance these two authorities? I believe that the answer lies not in the authority of the respective sources, but in the nature of Tom Bombadill, himself. I think this is similar to the passage in the Gospels when the Saducees ask Jesus concerning the theortical woman with 8 successive husbands to whom she would be married in the afterlife, we don't understand the very nature the of question we are asking. (Matt 22:23-33) One more quote. This is from Chapter 2 of the Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna: Quote:
So, "The Oldest Living Thing that still walks beneath the sun" implies to me that it is very likely that all the Elves that awoke next to the waters of Cuivienen have passed to the Halls of Mandos, but Treebeard was also inhabited at that moment of awakening. So, how do we deal with the stated fact that Tom was there "before the first acorn?" I believe that these two statements can only be reconciled if we accept that Tom Bombadill is something other than Valar or Maiar (no, not Eru Iluvatar). It has been postulated elsewhere that Tom (and his partner, Goldberry) is a being of the spirit of the earth, and his essence is that of the earth. What I'm saying is that Tom is not alive in the sense that Elves, Ents and even Istari are alive. He and Goldberry exist as an extension of the being of the earth, and are simply an animation of the forces that move the world, itself. They don't live, per se, they simply are, and have been since "before the first acorn". Therefor, Tom is eldest, and Treebeard is oldest. Oh, and Balrogs have wings...
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01-02-2005, 12:04 PM | #33 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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It seems to me that this long chapter has not yet been exhausted; the poetry, for example, has not been discussed yet. I'd like to give those who didn't have time due to the holidays a chance to join in, so I will wait another week to start the next chapter discussion. I hope for many good contributions during the next days!
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01-03-2005, 09:33 AM | #34 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Herding Stories
Thank you, Estelyn, for keeping this thread on top for another week. I too think there is much we can still natter about, although it is a challenge deciding just where to jump in with so many excellent ideas already raised. SpM, however, has asked for more discussion about Pippin and about the entwives, and who am I to deny a gentleman such a polite request? So, for this post, on to Pippin!
There is a fascinating passage about Pippin, our peregrinating hobbit. Whether this relates to his alleged greater intuitiveness I cannot say, but I think it is part of Tolkien?s belief in the importance of story or of language. We have already discussed in a previous chapter how Tolkien suggests that Pippin will survive. (Being neither Ent nor Entwife, memory fails me now and I cannot remember if it is in ?The Riders of Rohan? chapter or ?The Uruk-hai.?) We have here a more extensive suggestion of what Pippin will make of his adventures. Settle down for a long read now?don?t be hasty--for this is a long quotation. Quote:
And, more particularly, we see Pippin developing an extended metaphor to account for his perception of Treebeard's eyes. And not simply his eyes, of course, but of the effect of them and the particular springs of Entish nature. The first paragraph offers simple description, a listing of Treebeard's physical characteristics. The second paragraph supplies the comparison to the well of water illuminated by the light of ages and obviously will therefore include Pippin's further experience of Treebeard. This second paragraph of first person recollection extends our knowledge of the Ents beyond what a first, cursory perception would offer. Pippin's metaphor, as recollection after the fact, represents a summation of his experience of ents. All of his time with Treebeard and the other ents, the Entmoot and Quickbeam, and of course the subsequent events of the War of the Ring, are part of this metaphor. Thus, Tolkien is able to suggest a depth of character to the Ent even at a first meeting with this remarkable character. He is also able to show a facet of Pippin beyond the "Fool of a Took" which characterised him early on in the Quest. Tolkien 'breaks' narrative time to do this in an extraordinary way. It is part, I think, of the many examples in this chapter which suggest his profound respect for story. It is through story that language and people live. This is the significance, I think, of the exchange between the hobbits and Treebeard over the hobbits' place in the old stories. Saucepan is right that this reflects Tolkien's own subtle play about reading the hobbits back into the legendarium, but it also reflects Tolkien's own concept of how stories are developed synchretically. This is a grammatical point and part of Tolkien's philological approach. (To provide a definition: ?the merging, as by historical change in a language, of two or more inflectional categories in a specified environment.? I am using this by analogy of course. from Random House College Dictionary.) But how extraordinary to jump ahead in time, as it were, to provide a future recollection! (As this post is long enough, I think I shall have to return another time for the entwives.)
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01-03-2005, 09:47 AM | #35 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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pip
good analysis Beth!
Battles, adventures, and Captains of Gondor and Rohan aside, I always thought that the capture of M and P by the orcs and the meeting of the Ents was the most significant, life changing experience for those two, and was relayed as such by the author. |
01-08-2005, 11:39 AM | #36 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Aside from Bêthberry's excellent contribution and drigel's comment, this chapter discussion has lain dormant for the past week. I was hoping our resident poetry experts would jump at the chance to discuss Treebeard's poems, but apparently they're all still hibernating. Since I don't want the poems to go unmentioned, I will at least briefly touch upon them in hopes that my post might spark interest and encourage some last-minute posting before the next chapter thread goes up.
All of the poems are Entish ones, though they are given in 'Westron'. The first one is the 'old list', beginning "Learn now the lore of Living Creatures". It is alliterative verse and only a portion of the whole work is quoted. From the fragment we have, it is difficult to deduct if there is any particular logic to the order in which the animals are named. The Free Peoples seem to be listed in order of the age of each race, which would place Ents between Dwarves and Humans. Though hobbit poetry is normally written in rhyme, the line Pippin adds for Hobbits is in the mode of the rest of the poem. There are two lines given in Elvish when Treebeard speaks of Lothlórien: Quote:
Next comes "In the willow-meads of Tasarinan"; I have heard this sung to the tune by Donald Swann, a very nice version in my opinion. I'm not sure I can identify the type of poetry - it does not rhyme, but it's not in the alliterative mode either. It is wonderfully descriptive and evocative, following the seasons in the various woods, most of which have disappeared under the water at this time. "When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf" is written in a simple rhyme scheme, with some repetition of whole or partial phrases. It also follows the seasons from spring to winter, and the stanzas alternate speakers, with Ents and Entwives given their varying views of each. Only the last two lines are spoken by both. It is also very descriptive and shows by the viewpoints of the genders how different they are. So much could be said about it, but I lack the time to go into detail. The most interesting thing to me is the fact that the only season they find a common ground is the winter, or a joined future in the West. Quickbeam is the speaker of the next poem, “O Orofarnë”. It mourns the passing of trees that were his friends and is written in rhyme. The contrast between the appearance of the trees while alive to the way they looked after being destroyed is made almost visible. The last poem is a marching song, beginning with “We come, we come with roll of drum” and continuing with “To Isengard!” It is very strongly rhythmic and repetitive; I have heard the recording of Tolkien reading this and increasing the speed – very dramatic! The sound of the words is very important in this poem – especially the word “doom” emphasizes the spirit of the marching Ents. I find it almost impossible to read the poem without getting on my feet and moving! I’d be more than delighted to hear your comments on the poems and their significance to you!
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01-08-2005, 02:40 PM | #37 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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(The whole story can be found here)
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01-08-2005, 03:18 PM | #38 | |||
Bittersweet Symphony
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01-08-2005, 03:30 PM | #39 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Thanks for that information, Encaitare!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
01-11-2005, 10:26 AM | #40 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Coming in very late, I know, and I probably wouldn’t bother but I want to be sure to post to each chapter thread! (Is there a prize Esty for those of us who do so?)
The two elements of this chapter that I have always found the most interesting have already come in for some really excellent discussion here: the tale of the “split” between the Ents and the Entwives and the nature of Ent language. In reading through what’s here, I’m beginning to get a weird idea that we can actually relate these together. The Entwives have a “possessive” view of nature insofar as they want to order it; to take what’s wild and untamed and to make it agricultural. This is what truly distinguishes them from the Ents and their more ‘accepting’ view of nature. They just like it without wanting to control it. But I’m not so sure I buy this. Sure, the Ents are happy to let trees be trees, but they are an awful lot like the Entwives in their approach to language. As davem has already pointed out, for the Ents, the ‘ideal’ word is one that tells the complete story of a thing. For them, naming (Bob) and identifying (a man) are one and the same, whereas in our more ‘simple’ language they are different (for us Bob and ‘a man’ can refer to the same person; for Ents, presumably, there would only be one word-name for Bob that would render the general noun ‘man’ irrelevant (or at least hasty). The Ents want to tame language in the same way that the Entwives want to tame nature. Or, rather (and rather more problematically) the Ents want to tame/contain reality with language. The list of the speaking peoples is a great example of this. All the conscious beings must have a place in their poem: poetry being, of course, the most wrought (i.e. worked upon) and even artificial form of language. When confronted with the treachery of Saruman and the hobbits, they spend their first night debating how to include hobbits in their list. They are as obsessive with their desire to control and tame life as are the Entwives, its just that their methods differ. While the Entwives are content to grow gardens, the Ents are rather doomed to try and capture all of reality in a language that will just get longer and longer as it tries to come up with words that capture the entirety of a thing. They are in this respect a bit like the Elves, aren’t they? The Elves want/need to capture the present and to keep it static and unchanging forever. The Ents want/need to capture reality in a single word that can be the Final Word: that call tell the whole story – but of course for this to happen the story would have to stop. As long as time continues and new things happen to that hill, the name/word of it will change and grow as well. Treebeard says as much about his name: that it is always growing.
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