The Insanity of Denethor

[Saraphim]

I was wondering what you all thought about how Denethor went crazy in the movies as opposed to in the books.

He didn't have the palantir (at least in the theatrical version, which is all I have to work with as of now.) yet he still wanted to kill himself on Faramir's pyre, until he realized that Faramir was indeed alive, but then Shadowfax and Gandalf pushed him into the fire, and he ran over the edge of the conviently-placed drop off.
Do any of you have any thoughts on the subject of how this was implemented?

[Finwe]

Well... many of John Noble's lines are straight from the book, and thus, hint at his possession of the palantir. Perhaps in the EE they'll actually show us those flashing lights and such, coming from his tower, so we have more time to watch Denethor's madness fully develop.

[The Only Real Estel]

Hopefully they'll expound a little in the EE, but I still think that perhaps the worst change is to have him (or at least look like) all of a sudden change his mind on the idea of burning, but then having it be to late. Almost as if Gandalf drove him to his death...

[Kronos]

I think that from Denethor’s point of view the lack of the Palantir in the non-EE edition is not really a problem.

We already know that he believes that Rohan will not come.
He knows the extent of Gondor’s forces.
He has seen an army outnumbering theirs 20 times over.
He has one son dead and one dying (as far as he is concerned), his line is broken. In the Middle Ages the family line was all important. To die with no heirs effectively made his life worthless anyway, no-one would follow him.
Gandalf is bringing someone to replace him.

If you add those things together, even without the Palantir, it was enough to send Denethor loopy.

[HerenIstarion]

And beat him twice on the way, um...

[HerenIstarion]

cross-posting with Kronos up there. I was referring to the whole Gandalf/Denethor [movie] affair, for the impression was indeed as Gandalf tried to force Denethor to commit suicide

[Kransha]

I realize that PJ did an alright job compensating for the palantir, but having him throw himself off the embrasure of seventh level Minas Tirith was just a handy tool to get rid of an R rating ala self-immolation. It was to slapstick in delivery. Denny's insanity worked, considering all of the trauma PJ piled on him, but I want that palantir back! Plus, without the palantir, I lose my favorite part of the Denethor story; the palantir on his fiery deathbed.

[Jjudvven]

I really wanted to see the Pyre of Denethor the way it happened in the book. I was rather dissapointed when Denethor jumped off from Minis Tirith. It was as though he had just realized: "Oh whoops, I'm on fire. *doh!*" and then jumped off for some random reason. I thought the description of Denethor on the Pyre after his death was so creepy in the book. I can't believe they didn't have it in the movie. Does anyone know whether there will be anything about the Palantir of Minis Tirith on the EE?

[Sapphire_Flame]

The hints dropped earlier in the film ("The eyes of the White Tower are not blind" etc) certainly lead me to believe that the palantir will make an appearance in the EE.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Firefoot]

I thought the way they had him jump off the cliff was completely unnecessary. I wanted to see it the way it was in the book as well. The solemn scene in the book was replaced in the movie with a scene that made me laugh. To be quite honest, I thought it was stupid - and one of the few things I really disliked in the movie.

[Althern]

When I first saw the snippet of Denethor in TTT EE, and then RoTK, I was quite vexed; it was not what I was expecting at all. After a few more viewings however, I quite enjoy Jackson’s version of the great man of Gondor. Naturally, he is helped by getting some of the best lines from the books, but it is something about how he shoots his cuffs when he sits down, or his patronising smile when receiving Pippen’s pledge, that make him a pleasure to watch, provided of course you don’t confuse him with your own Denethor. (Now my Denethor is quite different: more wizardly than Gandalf, more command in his voice than Saruman, and more nobility sitting on the privvy than Aragorn on his throne.)

With regards to the lack of palantir and his madness, I concur with Kronos: Jackson provided enough reasons for him to go mad without involving the flaming bowling ball. He could see the doom of Gondor well enough from the embrasure. And besides, it brought about one of my favourite lines in the film, one that I will shamelessly steal during the next office fire drill, “Abandon your posts! Flee for your lives!” Hilarious.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I certainly thought he was mad enough...but I felt he was a 2D character. He didn't seem to possess the cunning he had in the book. In the book, he used his grief as a cloak to find out more information from Pippin. He did indeed despair at seeing the might of Sauron's army, but he lit the beacons and gathered his armies. He seemed completely and utterly selfish in the film...he didn't care in the least what happened to his city, they were all going to die as far as he was concerned so he didn't bother to gather his army. He even looked annoyed that the beacon had been lit!!! I found that infuriating, I must admit.

[The Only Real Estel]

He even looked annoyed that the beacon had been lit!!!

Actually he looked raving mad (angry)! I suppose PJ wanted the chance to give Pippin something good (& dramatic) to do...not that I'm endorsing it of course .

[The Saucepan Man]

I wonder if one reason for excluding Denethor's Palantir was because without proper (and screen time consuming) explanation, audiences might have become confused between that Palantir and the Palantir of Orthanc. With all the Denethor-bashing that Gandalf perpetrates, they might have gone away with the impression that Gandalf gave it to him just so as to destabilise him.

[Finwe]

Those evil trickssy wizardssssss!!!!!!

[Failivrin]

Originally posted by Jjudvven
I really wanted to see the Pyre of Denethor the way it happened in the book. I was rather dissapointed when Denethor jumped off from Minis Tirith. It was as though he had just realized: "Oh whoops, I'm on fire. *doh!*" and then jumped off for some random reason. I thought the description of Denethor on the Pyre after his death was so creepy in the book. I can't believe they didn't have it in the movie. Does anyone know whether there will be anything about the Palantir of Minis Tirith on the EE?

I thought this too. I really REALLY wanted to see the roof cave in on him and hear that final scream. Instead we got him hurling himself off a cliff...

JN did a good job with the script he was given. I very much liked the way he delivered the line about "I will not bow to this upstart, last of a ragged house long bereft of dignity". However, i didn't like Gandalf's subsequent line about ROTK. it was too obvious that he was just trying to get the title in.

[Macphisto]

Personally, I think the pyre would have been more dramatic if PJ had just left it as it was in the book. I mean, that is one of my favorite scenes in the book, and it was all right in the movie except for a few things.

1) Shadowfax pushing Denethor into the pyre. I really didn't like that. It gave the impression that there was no hope for Denethor, that he was totally evil, whereas in the book Gandalf tries to get him to come back. I very much prefer that sequence of events; that way it really is suicide. In the movie I, having read the book, couldn't help but think, 'Wait, aren't you even going to try to make him see the light? He's crazy, not evil!'

2) Denethor running off the building. I had such a great mental image from the book of Beregond and Gandalf and Pippin carrying Faramir out and Gandalf telling Denethor to come, and Denethor hesitating, looking at Faramir, then grabbing his palantir and rushing up on the pyre, and the doors slamming shut, and Gandalf watching in despair... I think Pete and I have different interpretations of this, and I like mine better. Denethor conveniently running off a cliff seemed so... melodramatic.

I also really didn't like Denethor's line, "The rule of Gondor is mine." I always thought that Denethor would step down if the King came, he just didn't believe Aragorn really was the King. Thoughts?

Anyhow, those are my complaints. And I don't think the palantir will show up in the EE, though I wish it would. But maybe I'm just pessimistic, as I am a lot.

Oh, I have a question. Remember how there's that guy who looks kind of like Haldir... oh, damn, what is his first line... Oh, he says, "Long has the Lord Denethor forseen this doom," yaddah yaddah yaddah when Faramir and crew come back from Osgiliath. And then he says to Denethor when the soldiers are carrying Faramir's body up to the tree, "They were outnumbered, none survived," or something.

Is that Imrahil? He never showed up again, which I guess is understandable, since Imrahil's such a, well, I don't want to say pointless, but he isn't all that relevant. But do you think that was a nod to the fans? He did look sort of Elvish, as I remember.

And I missed Beregond. I always liked Beregond. But I guess if you can't fit in the Houses of Healing, you certainly can't fit in Beregond. Still, I would have rather watched Beregond and Pippin than Arwen looking pathetic.

[Althern]

I have seen more than one site that lists that character (the "long as my Lord Denethor foreseen this doom..." guy) as Beregond, and the actor as Nick Nolte. I don't believe it myself; surely they would have used a random New Zealander for such a part, and at least one site has Nick's name appended with a question mark. Then again, it is on the internet, so it must be true, and yet, wasn't Beregond of ordinary rank, and not such to sport a spiffy cloak?

[Macphisto]

That's what I thought about the spiffy cloak too. And I figured that all the northern Gondorians have dark hair (except Faramir and Boromir... which is a little weird, but oh well) but he was blonde. I dunno. He did sort of seem to stand out in importance, something Beregond didn't do but Imrahil did. And he did bring Faramir back - Imrahil's part.

I would've liked to see Denethor burn on his pyre as well, but that could've been pretty graphic (not that I really care ). It seemed like Gandalf was too against Denethor in the movie, especially with the staff-beatings and pushing him into the flame. An accident perhaps, but it took away the sense of insanity that he had in the books. Personally, it didn't really distract my experience though. I might add it didn't bother many other people's either. When I went to the midnight showing on the 17th, everybody cheered when Gandalf whooped him, and when he jumped off the cliff. Now me, I just started laughing.

[Saraphim]

First of all, I'd like to thank you all for posting on this thread. Secondly I'd like to agree with this:

Still, I would have rather watched Beregond and Pippin than Arwen looking pathetic.

The parts with Gondor and its various inhabitants were some of my favorite parts in the book, and I was put out when so much was cut out. I understand time constraints, but most of those Arwen's Dying Because Of The Ring scenes could have stood to be cut down a bit.

I did enjoy John Noble's portrayl as Denny, but he got a bit severe and mean when it came to Faramir (before he was wounded), and I did not enjoy his relationship with Gandalf. The staff-beatings were funny, but they just did not fit Gandalf.

[Essex]

Estel,

but I still think that perhaps the worst change is to have him (or at least look like) all of a sudden change his mind on the idea of burning, but then having it be to late.

I can see what you're saying, but doesn't this (kind of) happen in the book? He does change his mind, but the madness (or pride) takes over again. This seems to occur twice in the Pyre scenes.

....Faramir moaned and called on his father in his dream. Denethor started as one waking from a trance, and the flame died in his eyes, and he wept; and he said: 'Do not take my son from me! He calls for me.'

Straight after this Denethor says

'He will not wake again,' said Denethor. 'Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?'

and then after Gandalf has scolded him

Denethor followed him, and stood trembling, looking with longing on the face of his son. And for a moment, while all were silent and still, watching the Lord in his throes, he wavered.

But finally after this he decides to take his own life.

In a sense, it IS too late for Denethor, inasmuch as the Palantir has driven him mad, and it is too late to turn back.....


I agree with your point on Denethor looking angry when he sees the beacons lit. This is the one thing that bugs me about Jackson's Denethor. It was Denethor himself who had the beacons lit in the book. Why all this show of strife between Gondor and Rohan in the films?


Saraphim,

The staff-beatings were funny, but they just did not fit Gandalf.

OK, slightly over the top, but Gandalf DID strike Denethor in the book.

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

[Meela]

I didn't see much wrong with the movie's version. John Noble's a good enough actor to pull it off in a dignified manner.

The leap of death was a little off-putting, and I could have done with seeing a Palantir. Although I never dwell on the Palantir's absence whilst watching.

[Sirithheruwen]

very off-putting...very-disappointing...I actually snorted when it showed that, and that was NOT what I did, when I read the book, lets just say that! Very diasappointing...

[Saraphim]

I do remember that, Essex , but doesn't that imply some sort of intrinsic power as opposed to a physical staff-beating?

[Essex]

Yes it does, but I always enjoy finding lines in the book that Jackson uses as an excuse to add something in. Gandalf's 'striking' of Denethor being one and, for example, a paragraph from TT in that it was stated

Out of the darkness arrows whistled. Swiftly a scout rode back and reported that wolf-riders were abroad in the valley, and that a host of Orcs and wild men were hurrying southward from the Fords of Isen and seemed to be making for Helm's Deep.

and so he adds in the whole Warg Rider scene.

[Boromir88]

Denethor was a much more noble man then PJ made him out to be. He trully snapped for 10 minutes thats when he talked about burning and ending the line of stewards. Before that he might of well been crazy but didn't show much, "craziness."

Denethor was not afraid of Sauron he was willing to take him on until Denethor "snapped" of course. He was in charge of the defenses of Minas Tirith and was doing the best of his ability as far as the palantir he had every right to look into it. As stupid as it was he had the right to do it.

And in looking in the palantir he had Sauron's secrets and was able to set up a defense. I was astonished seeing how easily the Gondorian men were whacked and killed and how easily the armies got through the walls of Minas Tirith.

[The Only Real Estel]

I can see what you're saying, but doesn't this (kind of) happen in the book? He does change his mind, but the madness (or pride) takes over again. This seems to occur twice in the Pyre scenes.

True, he does change his mind for a split-second, but the movie doesn't give us his ensuing backswing right back to madness, making it seem like he wished he wasn't on fire (sounds kind've strange ).I think it would've been better to go with the 'Denethor grabs torch & ends his own life' idea rather than what PJ installed...

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

During the RotK, when Denethor leaped off the walls of Minas Tirith, my boyfriend (who's never read the LotR) leaned over and whispered:

"I'll bet that wasn't in the books."

So it was obviously phony. My sense of abiding goodwill for PJ notwithstanding, I don't think anyone thought his jumping off a cliff was believable. I found it discouraging that this complex character was portrayed as a garden-variety villain and a coward.

- Maril

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I was utterly shocked and amazed (and completely convinced that I was seeing things) when Denathor took his swan dive. I saw the movie embarrassingly late in its showing (I didn't see it until mid-February, for various reasons) and I was with my boyfriend on our first date. Needless to say, I figured I already knew everything about the movie (what with friends and family and their infernal need for spoilers), so I spent a rather large amount of time joking with my date instead of paying complete and total attention. Each time a person that was dead or dying was on screen, one of us would whisper "I see dead people." Thus, I was vaguely distracted by the guy behind us saying "Quiet, you're ruining the mood" just when Denathor started going mad.

Since I was laughing so hard (you probably had to be there to understand the humor), When I saw Denny go up in flames, I was like... "That's changed a bit." Then he started running around and took his Flaming Leap of Death, and then I was just confused. I couldn't for the life of me figure out WHY they made such a noble and powerful man fling himself off a cliff while on fire. The books were much more convincing and well-concieved. Then today reading the appendices, I saw that Denathor was extraordinarily alike to Aragorn, and then I started thinking- would Strider fling himself off a cliff? I think not.

Fea

[Kitanna]

I was almost crying I was laughing so hard when Denethor died in the movie. It was a "What did I just see moment?" I swear that scene came straight out of a Mel Brooks movie. I actually liked how Denethor went in the books, but he seemed a little less crazy, but that scene made my day. I don't see how someone could not laugh after seeing that. Or at least anyone who has read the books. No Palantir, nope nope, just some crazy steward running and fallen off a tower in Minas Tirith. Priceless.