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Old 02-26-2002, 02:51 PM   #1
Airetauriel
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Sting Can the Film ever improve on the book?

???? Now there's a question. I'm undecided and would say NO!!! as a rule....but 'tarry, a little'. I'll post one example, not committing myself to better or worse, then leave the forum open to debate!!!<P>In the chamber of Mazarbul....<P>BOOK: <BR>Gandalf: 'There are orcs, very many of them. And some are large and evil, black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one'<P>FILM<BR>Boromir: *ironically, as arrows whiz past his head* 'They have a cave troll....'<P>Less is more?<P>Airetauriel
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Old 02-26-2002, 03:12 PM   #2
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IMO there were several scenes in PJ's movie that were better than the book:<P><B>The Last Alliance Prologue</B><P>Book: Discussed by characters<P>Movie: We see part of the Battle!<P><BR><B>Boromir's Death</B><P>Book: Discussed at the beginning of The Two Towers, but we are not given a first-hand account of the battle.<P>Movie: Boromir's defense of the hobbits and subsequent death at Amon Hen is shown in real-time!<P><BR><B>Watcher in the Water</B><P>Book: Text is rather dull for the scene IMHO, could have been much better. Only Sam slashes at a tentacle with his knife before the watcher frees Frodo.<P>Movie: Much more intense scene. All the members of the Fellowship battle the Watcher in the Water when it grabs Frodo at the gates of Moria. Plus, the Kraken is just so cool to look at on screen!<P><BR><B>Gandalf's Powers</B><P>In general, I think that Gandalf's spells came off much better in the movie, than in the books. Not sure why, just something about viewing them on screen.<P><BR>Well that's about it, the Book is superior to the movie in every other aspect, mostly due to the increased detail given in the book medium vs. the movie medium.<P>Ulmo has spoken <P>
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Old 02-26-2002, 07:49 PM   #3
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ulmo:<BR><STRONG>IMO there were several scenes in PJ's movie that were better than the book:<P><B>The Last Alliance Prologue</B>.....<B>Boromir's Death</B>.....<B>Watcher in the Water</B>.....<B>Gandalf's Powers</B></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In my opinion, I liked The Last Alliance, and Boromir's death. The other two scenes didn't thrill me. The fight between Gandalf and Saruman... cat fight! It so reminded me of the fight between Bavmorda and Fin Raziel in "Willow"!<P>But I'd have to say that the book was WAY better than the movie, but I still hope that the next movie will be equally good.
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Old 02-26-2002, 10:58 PM   #4
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Not in this case. However, you have a really good movie of what is arguably the best piece of 20th century literature. And that makes it special in and of itself. What we are seeing with PJ <I>et al</I> is fan fic mixed with the text, although parts of that text may be compressed or moved. The question arises, were the screenwriters' imaginations up to the task? Were the themes and characters that they chose to develop at the expense of other ones the <I>right</I> ones? Sometimes JRR is a little dry in his description of cataclysmic events, and in others, he is very intense, but that reserve doesn't drop often (and when I say 'reserved', I mean in relation to someone like, say, Stephen King, who goes over the top as a matter of course). I think the increase in intensity from the combination of visual sensory overload and a music score that is written specifically to intensify the emotional responses to that visual stimuli will give you a <I>different</I> experience than reading the book...(<I>whew!</I>)<P>The short answer is 'no.' Different, but not better.<BR> <P>There are instances where the movies do transcend the books: The Godfather is definitely the most obvious case.<P>What were we talking about?<BR> <P>[ February 27, 2002: Message edited for spellink by: Glenethor ]<p>[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ]
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Old 02-27-2002, 03:09 AM   #5
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I agree, Sean Bean's ironic "they have a cave troll" was a definate improvement that could only have been pulled off in a movie. Hard to say "improvement." I'd say I just enjoyed it more.<P>Likewise Bilbo's birthday speech. <P>The scene with the moth also was outstanding. <P>I liked the scene with Gandalf & Saruman in Saruman's study. Visually rich. <P>A wizard battle real-time was a good idea, but needed much more imagination (like the moth scene) rather than ripping off Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.<P>I loved seeing the Last Alliance, especially watching Isildur turn away from the cracks of doom. More visually effective than telling of the history of the ring - in a movie. But in the book, The Shadow of the Past is my personal favorite. That would have been a pretty dull scene if they did it verbatum, the power was in learning Frodo predicament and his response to it.<P>Many will disagree, but the scene in Elrond's study was excellent "our list of allies grows <I>thin</I>." Elrond's sarcasm could kill flies in midair.<P>But - The pacing was not as good as the books. The Watcher in the Water scene was one of the worst offenders.<P>In the books it foreshadowed, hinted at trouble beyond the doors of Moria. By not overdoing it, the scene built tension which wasn't released until the cave troll & the scene with the Balrog. <P>Amping up the Watcher was a mistake, *poof* you lost the tension and the trek through Moria was a dull plod, not tense and scary. <P>This may be sort of an adult observation, but it's like sex. Once there's release, you have to build it back up again. But if there's a tease, and then you back off, it does the opposite, the finale is that much more intense. (The BW may assign me to a blue forum for this analogy, but I felt it was necessary, to explain what I meant by dramatic tension. I did make my point, didn't I?)<P>I call this kind of pacing the "Sinbad Syndrome." You know the old Sinbad movies? By the time you hit the third monster...
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Old 02-27-2002, 07:16 AM   #6
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Marileangorifurnimaluim:<BR>[QB]This may be sort of an adult observation, but it's like sex. Once there's release, you have to build it back up again. But if there's a tease, and then you back off, it does the opposite, the finale is that much more intense. (The BW may assign me to a blue forum for this analogy, but I felt it was necessary, to explain what I meant by dramatic tension. I did make my point, didn't I?)[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like the analogy! I'm sure we all understand you... But the tension does get back up to level in Moria, I think. The watcher in the water doesn't spoil it too much....the way they portrayed the Balrog without showing him till the last minute was very good....more of your teasing... First the footsteps, then the fire glow, then the crumbling wall, then the fire itself, before he finally leaps out...enough tension? It was improved by the scene on the stairs, too...very visually dramatic! And the way Gandalf shouts at Aragorn is so out of character it immediately puts you on red alert. <P>GANDALF: 'You cannot pass! I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass!'<BR>BALROG: *drawing himself up to full height, wreathed in flame* Wanna bet?!? <BR>GANDALF: 'The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow. You cannot pass!'<BR>BALROG: My sword is bigger than yours!!! *crashes it down upon Gandalf's staff* Damn....*roars, stepping forward onto the bridge*<BR>GANDALF: You cannot pass! *smotes the bridge with his staff, the Balrog's great bulk begins to fall....*<BR>BALROG: Now why'd you have to go and do that? I'm afraid of heights as it is...*falls away, cracking his whip, and wrapping it around Gandalf's legs. He falls.*<BR>GANDALF: 'Fly, you fools!'<BR>BALROG: Ohhhh Noooo he's coming with me... I can see this being a very long night...<P>It could have been a lot worse!!!!!<P>Airetauriel
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Old 02-27-2002, 12:31 PM   #7
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*Lol* <P>It certanly could have been worse. <P>Personally I think the best improvement is Boromirs death.
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Old 02-27-2002, 10:12 PM   #8
Marileangorifurnimaluim
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lol! Yes, the build up from Balin's book to the fall of Gandalf (really, you ought to do a cartoon along these lines) was outstanding. <P>By over doing the Watcher he only threw away the tension from the shutting of the doors to the halls of Khazad-dum. He recovered bravely. <P>He also made good use of the down time by moving Frodo's conversation with Gandalf to Moria "I wish it had never come to me." That rescued the portion of the story from boredom and was a very good choice. That is one change that worked well.<P>Alas, however, Moria itself was never frightening, and the Watcher is the reason why. Most sleep to recover I've noticed, and I've read posts from people who've consistantly fallen asleep at that point (despite the fact Moria was their favorite part of the Fellowship).<p>[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 02-28-2002, 02:18 PM   #9
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Whuuuoop!!! <P>I didn't find it like that at all. I liked Moria in the movie a lot. The drums from the dark was really frightening. The part with the diary that Gandalf reads I find especially good.
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Old 03-04-2002, 03:14 PM   #10
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The only way that the movie could improve on the book was to bring greater understanding. Some of the things in the book were hard to picture, on video you get too see it, however on the other hand, this could distort the actual picture that JRRT had in his mind. <P>I don't think that the movie could really inprove on the book. Don't get me wrong, I loved the movie, but as to actually be better then the book, I don't think so. I'm sorry but personally, I didn't like the action sceans, I didn't like Boromir dying, I think they dragged it out way too long. I liked the pace of the book, but I can also see that PJ had to speed things up a bit.
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Old 03-05-2002, 02:56 PM   #11
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<---- How do you like my new pic? <P>I can agree in that it should have been like that but the answer is NO! The movie never could have or can improve on the book. Well, improve is a case of definition oufcorse...
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