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04-27-2003, 12:42 PM | #81 | ||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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However, referring to the historical period as a whole, I think that the term will probably continue to stick in some sense, at least concerning the study of European history. It is also called the "Early Medieval Period." For the sake of clarity I will refer to it as such in the future. (Even though this is almost a more nebulous term. ) Quote:
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There are the seeds of an interesting discussion there, but I fear that if we continue in that vein much longer the thread will be closed down. I’d love to discuss this further in a more private arena if you would be so inclined. Before I continue I would also like to say that I did not wish to say that generosity and positive impulses do not exist in humanity. I just do not believe that they are the primary and dominant impulses. Quote:
For instance, take the 20th Century (please!) There were four men of the 20th Century who probably had the greatest impact, judged by the number of lives they affected (or afflicted). They were Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Ghandi. Of those four only Ghandi was a "nice" guy. The rest were cruel butchers, and yet look at the changes that they wrought in the world. There were also some other lights like Martin Luther King, but those above four had the greatest impact on the world. Quote:
I would answer that a truly generous impulse is doing good because good is something that has value in and of itself. (Hmm…I think I read something like that in Tolkien’s Letters somewhere, come to think of it. Although, I think that he was talking about Frodo’s pity for Gollum at the time.) Thus, the reward, whether it exists or not, is irrelevant. You do good because it is good. Quote:
However, as Tolkien would say, the "Morgoth Element" will almost always come into play, even at times when we are wanting to do right. It is just part of being human. This has gotten rather abstract all of a sudden.
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04-27-2003, 02:01 PM | #82 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I don’t think this is as off topic as it can be interpreted. There are plenty of threads dealing with Tolkien and religion, Tolkien and the bible, and Tolkien and Christianity. Christian optimism always existed in the Christian Church, but was developed to its fullest extent by the medieval scholastics. The notion that all things are created good and are part of an economy of salvation, a linear path of history, did much to usher in the scientific and technological age. Catholicism has always stubbornly held onto this notion, putting her at odds with the “sinners in the hands of an angry god” crowd. As a Catholic, Tolkien would have been thoroughly indoctrinated by the notion that God created all things good, and despite the fallen condition of man, man remains fundamentally good and on a path toward divination. Such optimism is the corner stone of Lord of the Rings… apparently insignificant people doing extraordinary things, characters finding within themselves the strength and courage to overcome incredible odds. Evil in Middle Earth is explained along the same lines, albeit in the negative sense: the fall of good creatures into evil (i.e. Melkor and Sauron) and corrupting a good creation by the misuse of sub-creative powers. The "Morgoth Element" is an unfortunate condition, but not the true nature of reality. For all these negative influences, I’m sure I can come up with just as many 20th century people who have had a positive influence. It’s a circular argument, and depends on your worldview. On the practical level, optimism has certainly made me a more congenial person. At the same time, the world is what it is. Any attempts to apply an elixir that somehow purifies the world and makes it into a perfect utopia is a waste of time, be it education, social justice, or some rule of law. Not even Jesus Christ claimed to do that (not yet, at least). Once again, though, my optimism tells me we are part of a greater design and destined for greater things. All I can do is attempt to teach my children those simple things that will give them a chance to be good people and maybe change the world in a positive way. Pessimists do have an important role to play, especially in identifying the ills that need to be righted. However, even pessimists attest to the optimistic view that all things are fundamentally good. If everything was basically base, rude, evil, and irreparably corrupted, why identifying the ills in the first place? Quote:
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04-27-2003, 10:44 PM | #83 | ||
Visionary Spirit
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Bill Ferny:
Hail and well met. * bows an affable greeting, offers you a bit of Southern Star, lights a conversational bowl of pipeweed himself * With pleasure I've come across this renewed thread after a long absence. You address so many worthy topics ... for tonight I'll choose just one. Soothly, your post of April 26, 2003 10:15 PM can be answered by an entire book called "Beyond Humanism" by John Julian Ryan, published by Sheed and Ward in 1950. The author very much agrees with your take on education being a preparation for life as a whole rather than for life in terms of mere paycheck-earning-and-spending ability, as seen in the following quotes: Quote:
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Myself, I was fortunate to have a father who introduced me to various hobbies. In particular, to the wonders of the stars by teaching me astronomy, and to the wonders of magical presentation (close-up, stage, mentalism, and everything in between) by personal instruction, until eventually I joined the International Brotherhood of Magicians. More to come soon. I look forward to discussing these and other points with you in more depth. Gandalf the Grey |
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04-27-2003, 11:17 PM | #84 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Tigerlily, with your post falling last on the previous page, I didn’t notice it until a few minutes ago. That’s unfortunate because you bring up a number of provocative points. Mel Gibson gave an interview about his role in Signs, which was apparently a haunting role for him to play. If I can find the interview on the web, I’ll PM it to you.
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Gandalf, I’m not familiar with John Julian Ryan. I’m sure he’ll be in the library, though. The book sounds fascinating. Quote:
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04-28-2003, 04:26 PM | #85 | ||||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I must apologize at this point, I don’t happen to be in possession of Letters at the moment, so I can’t cite particulars. I will try to get it back again as soon as I can. Nevertheless, there is a reference from that book that comes to mind. (At least I think that it was from Letters.) When he is writing on the subject of the benefits and ills of the chivalric view of women he makes a comment something along the lines of "the chivalric view tends to elevate women too much, to the point that it is forgotten that they too are human and their souls are in peril." That sort of remark tends to make me believe that Tolkien did not think that people were fundamentally good. It sounds like he thought that they were in trouble and in need of redemption. However, I’m open to other interpretations and passages on his viewpoint. My knowledge of his views is by no means exhaustive. I tend to only read those things that deal directly with Middle Earth and ignore other "stuff." Quote:
Take, for example, the Destruction of the Ring. While Frodo’s pity was an important ingredient, it only opened the door for an event that was nothing less than divine intervention. That was where the true triumph in the story came in, from outside ourselves. Quote:
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 06-25-2005 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Cleaning up old code. |
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04-28-2003, 07:19 PM | #86 |
Wight
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Still Shape our world?
Let's see: last time I looked the Soviet Union had gone flooey and Stalinism was dead even before that. Mao's China has not only turned capitalist but done its best to undo the damage he inflicted and Hitler and his thousand year Reich have been dead and buried for nearly sixty years. That these Bad men had tremendous and damaging impact on Human history is undeniable but it is the forces that were called up to oppose them that have lasted. It is the reaction *against* their evil that shaped the twentieth century. |
04-28-2003, 09:56 PM | #87 | ||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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And currently Russia is in such bad economic shape that I would not be surprised to see them go back to something resembling the NEP that they had back in the early days of the Soviet Union. Putin is an ex-KGB man you know. And Stalin is still popular with many of the descendants of the people that he brutalized all those years ago. He was even popular while he was alive. Which goes to show two things. One, people can be pretty strange, and two that man did a heck of a job building a personality cult around himself. This may also show that people like being brutalized, which was a point made by Dostoevsky, but we'll cover this again later if need be. Quote:
And then there is how the state of Israel came about partially as a result of the Holocaust, which is another one of their deplorable actions that still resonates to this day. Quote:
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I hate to mention it but Stalin (who was, by body count, worse than Hitler) had more to do with defeating Hitler than anybody else who fought against Nazi Germany. (Sorry US and UK). It was the Soviets who turned around the war at Stalingrad. It was the Soviets who consistently faced something between 80%-90% of the German army most of the time. It was the Soviets under Stalin who "liberated" (ha-ha) the most territory from German occupation (including much of their own). And it was the Soviets, or more specifically Stalin, who reaped the lion's share of the spoils of the war. Although on the other hand they were so thoroughly ravaged by the Germans (and by Stalin, and by a few decades of unrelenting turmoil and suffering before the war) that in the end things still looked a little rough for them. (And before anyone gets all huffy about my little WW II schpiel, I'm not trying to say that the US and UK were not important, they were. The war probably could not have been won by the Allies if any one of the three main powers had been missing.) And then following that came the Cold War. I suppose that could be looked at as starting off as a "reaction" against Stalin. But on the other hand it could be equally looked upon as Stalin trying to gain as much capital off of "his" victory as he possibly could. Then came Khrushchev, who was sort of a de-Stalinizer (to a point), who also almost started a nuclear war. Then came Brezhnev, who was sort of a re-Stalinizer, and on and on we go. (But notice how everything was still bouncing off of Stalin.) But suffice it to say that these men still resonate to this day, like it or not. The world is the way that it is today because of the things that those men did. *He now looks frantically around to find some way to tie this back to Tolkien...*
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04-29-2003, 12:50 PM | #88 |
Cryptic Aura
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If I may, Kuruharan, the letter you allude to in which Tolkien says that the woman, in the courtly love tradition, is "another fallen human-being with a soul in peril" is Letter # 43, written to his son Michael, 6-8 March 1941. Tolkien also says that, even when "harmonized with religion" the courtly love tradition causes men and women to forget that they are "companions in shipwreck." p. 49 in my paperback HarperCollins edition, l995.
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04-29-2003, 09:53 PM | #89 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I haven’t time to reply in full. However, I do require some clarification.
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Tolkien’s spurious view of chivalry (I say spurious because chivalry does not necessarily equal courtly romance as he seems to take for granted in the above example), is beside the point. That Tolkien believed in original sin is obvious throughout his writings, no less, I’m sure in his letters. I’ve read enough examples on this forum to be convinced. None-the-less, the Catholic notion of the “shipwreck” of the human condition does not negate the essential goodness of the human person. Once again, no human act can undue an act of God. If there is nothing worth saving about sinful humanity, why save it? However, arguing Tolkien’s theology is shaky ground, as he was neither a theologian or philosopher. I admit the only grounds for making the above claims is that Tolkien was an educated and devout Catholic. I don’t think a Catholic Oxford professor would be unfamiliar with Saint Thomas Aquinas, nor do I think a devout Catholic would be of a mind to diverge radically from a system of thought that has been the basis for Catholic doctrine since the Council of Trent. Quote:
At any rate, you bring up other points of interest, but unfortunately I haven’t the time to address them with the sufficiency they deserve.
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04-29-2003, 09:54 PM | #90 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Bethberry:
You certainly may. Thank you very much. I should be Lettered in the next day or so. And shipwreck is also rather suggestive. Bill: You got me on my timing there. I must also be brief but I did want to make one observation. Quote:
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Could you explain in greater depth to make sure I'm understanding properly. The way that reads to me sounds like there is something wrong in the essentials of human beings. Quote:
Looking forward to continued discussion.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 06-25-2005 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Cleaning up old code. |
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