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Old 11-19-2012, 06:36 AM   #1
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27 animals die during Hobbit filming

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The producers of The Hobbit have come under fire from wranglers after 27 animals used on set during the filming of the trilogy have died.
While no animals were harmed during the actual filming, wranglers claim the production company is still responsible for the deaths because the animals were kept at a nearby farm filled with bluffs, sinkholes and other 'death traps'.
Four wranglers working with the animals claim they repeatedly raised concerns about the farm peppered with bluffs, sinkholes and broken-down fencing with their superiors and the production company, owned by Warner Bros., but it continued to be used.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2Cfgd2NIF
Unacceptable that this is happening in the 21st century.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:56 AM   #2
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Saw this story on CBC too. So sad. So wrong.

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Old 11-19-2012, 03:31 PM   #3
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For the sake of fairness and there's always two sides to an issue:

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/11/1...on-the-hobbit/

You would expect Jackson and the film-makers to deny responsibility, and it appears none were mistreated or injured during the actual filming. The issue is the "housing" of the animals may have been substandard and dangerous. Of course the company line is "these are disgruntled wranglers, we got rid of over a year ago."

I doubt this will be the last we hear of this story, and so I will continue to reserve judgement on possible mistreatment until more is known.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:29 PM   #4
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For the sake of fairness and there's always two sides to an issue. . .
Often, many sides, depending upon the news agency which reports the story and which of the participants are interviewed and quoted. I read this in a CBC news story and the CBC is very good at checking its stories. It's version makes very clear that the deaths were not on the set per se but were the result of harmful living conditions. Here's that version:

New Zealand Hobbit animal deaths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boro
You would expect Jackson and the film-makers to deny responsibility, and it appears none were mistreated or injured during the actual filming. The issue is the "housing" of the animals may have been substandard and dangerous. Of course the company line is "these are disgruntled wranglers, we got rid of over a year ago."

I doubt this will be the last we hear of this story, and so I will continue to reserve judgement on possible mistreatment until more is known.
If we dig a little deeper into the stories, it isn't so cut and dried as a he said/she said. In the CBC version, a spokesperson for the movie/Jackson says that two deaths of horses were "avoidable" and the company spent a great deal of money improving conditions for the animals. That seems to suggest that the company had heard of the conditions and did something to ameliorate the situation. So there is not a straight denial of responsibility from the film company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBC story
Dravitzki, the spokesman for Peter Jackson, said the production company reacted swiftly after the first two horses died, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars upgrading housing and stable facilities in early 2011.

"We do know those deaths were avoidable and we took steps to make sure it didn't happen again," he said.
Perhaps the full story is that not enough was done to ameliorate conditions for animals; maybe newline just didn't push hard enough to ensure that problems were overcome.

Or perhaps this story is being used to highlight loopholes in animal care oversight. What more powerful way to point out those problems than the conditions of such a prominent movie, particularly where the animals did not die on the set but as a result of the living conditions created by the movie company.

The timing is interesting, but remember that NewLine was forced via a long and protracted law suit to pay the Tolkien Estate its rightful profits from the movies.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:56 PM   #5
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It is a sad and unfortunate thing to hear about. And I don't want to make light of, or condone mistreatment of animals which could cause harm or death' particularly is the situations which could have been avoided.

I primarily just wanted to add perspective before jumping on a media finger-pointing frenzy. For instance, I have seen this story being used as the sole reasons to boycotting The Hobbit, which in my opinion are too extreme, but to each their own. I have no intentions of watching the films in theaters, but this is based off a long line of news about the films and the apparent disregard for trying to even remain remotely faithful to Tolkien's story. I would still not be calling for any boycott or shutting down of the films, I mean they're made and if people want to see them, that's their choice, I choose to wait for I have no driving need to watch in theaters.

The perspective being, hundreds of animals were used in the films, I can see it being enough that no harm or mistreatment was caused during the filming parts. There appears to be a gap in the oversight of animal treatment in films. However, from what I've seen it sounds like the proper authorities were alerted to possible issues in the housing of the animals. And the steps were taken by the film-makers (or should it be producers?) to comply with solving the issues.

Maybe the 27 deaths were avoidable, maybe more could have been done...who knows. But my feelings are, accidents and mistakes happen, and as much as people like to search for where the fault and blame falls, sometimes there is no one at fault. Sometimes it is the people doing the best they can with the information they have and are given at the time.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:05 AM   #6
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From Peter Jackson's facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.ph...51300381651558

If someone can't read the link, PM me and I'll post the full story here.

As I said, Bb, not to make light of a sad situation, but it seems more and more likely some former Hobbit workers are trying to get their name in the headlines as the movies are about to come out.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:04 PM   #7
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I wonder how many potential filmgoers have enquired about the conditions the animals that fed the cast and crew lived and died in. Rather hypocritical to get up inarms about actor chickens and ignore the fate of batterh farm produced poultry that is the catering staple. No excuse for the horses though. You don't have to spend a fortune to make their environment safe if you are sensible about it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:29 PM   #8
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Perhaps the animals died of chagrin at being miscast in the Hobbit movie.

What do you mean I'm being insensitive?
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:32 PM   #9
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Perhaps the animals died of chagrin at being miscast in the Hobbit movie.
Given some of the dwarvish casting there are probably some Trakehners sulking under a lot of fake mane, tail and feather who had hoped thet somehow the Mearas had been written in.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:53 PM   #10
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I'll be interested to see if they change the closing credits. Usually, at least in the U.S. releases, films that use animals include the tagline, "No animals were harmed during the filming of this movie." I wonder if they'll mention something about this. An acknowledgement of the sacrifice that these animals endured would be nice. That many animals in one place, over that long of time, some would probably have been injured anyway. I also wonder if this is the same farm that was used for the filming of the Lord of the Rings movies. I guess that whichever Animal Rights society was in charge of monitoring the production should have investigated the boarding facilities before the production began. PETA should be mad at them, not at the production company.

I guess that, as much as I love my own animal, we don't know enough to be sure whether the Producers of The Hobbit are directly responsible, or if they did as much as they could. My heart goes out to those people who loved those 27 animals that are now gone (I hope each of these animals had someone to love them, and they weren't just treated as property.)

This just makes me sad. That should be enough.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:37 AM   #11
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Aren't PETA the ones who tried to rename fish "sea-kittens" a while back? Really don't think they have too much credibility...
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:31 AM   #12
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Aren't PETA the ones who tried to rename fish "sea-kittens" a while back? Really don't think they have too much credibility...
Aye, they have more than a few nutters. I am usually reluctant to defend anything coming out about The Hobbit films, even if someone paid me...but accusations coming from PETA? I would gladly do it any day.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:55 AM   #13
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I fileted several sea-kittens and cooked them on the barbecue yesterday. The burnt hair smelled terrible.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:18 PM   #14
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I'm no fan of PETA, having recently like Morth had some bbq'ed sea kittens (but mine were skinned so no problem with the hair), but in the CBC story which I posted, nothing is said about PETA.

That story relates to the concerns of the American Humane Association, which legitimately and legally oversees animal welfare in film productions. It by no means has an aggressive or radical history of concerns.

And it appears that its concerns are for the lack of oversight for the care (and training) of the animals off the set, which strikes me as a fair point to make. Note that the production company asked the AHA to investigate, it did, and the company made changes.

PETA jumps in and messes up the message.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:01 PM   #15
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There was a television show these many years ago called Green Acres. One of the characters(?) in the show was a young pig named Arnold. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Ziffel .

Since pigs grow quickly there must have been at least a different pig every year to play Arnold and, as the article I have cited says, mostly Arnold was really female. So what happened after each Arnold got too old?

A common story was that the cast had a yearly pig roast and ate Arnold. Since the roast was held after the season’s filming, it could still be claimed that no animal was harmed during the filming. The article cited claims this story was not true, but has the superscript warning “[citation needed]”.

Supposedly the pigs were returned to live out natural lives on farms. True or false?

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Old 11-24-2012, 01:11 PM   #16
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To tell you the truth I think most people are a little too sensitive. I will say that the deaths of two horses is rather unacceptable but out of the 27 animals I read that most of them were chickens and that the reason they died is because a dog got to them and killed them. It is a shame that this happened but stuff happens. That is life. PETA is ridiculous as usual with threats of protest. Protest over what? The movie did not kill the animals, unfortunate accidents and a few careless caretakers killed them. People just need to learn how to forgive and learn from mistakes. Sorry if I come off a little angry but I just need to put in my two cents.
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:50 PM   #17
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To tell you the truth I think most people are a little too sensitive. . . . Sorry if I come off a little angry but I just need to put in my two cents.
Everyone is allowed their two cents. However, I don't think the issue is simply one where people are oversensitive. Here are a few quotations from philosophers, leaders, thinkers, writers, about the relationship between human and non-human life forms.

"Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human life". ~ Albert Schweitzer

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" ~Gandhi

"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us ' Universe,' a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." ~Albert Einstein

"Animals have a life of their own that is of importance to them apart from their utility to us. They are not only in the world, they are aware of it. What happens to them matters to them. Each has a life that fares better or worse for the one whose life it is" ~Dr. Tom Regan, Animal Rights Philosopher

"He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant

"The question is not Can they reason? Nor Can they talk? But Can they Suffer" ~ Jeremy Bentham, Philosopher

"To educate our people, and especially our children, to humane attitudes and actions toward living things is to preserve and strengthen our national heritage and the moral values we champion in the world". ~ John Fitzgerald Kennedy

"I think how we treat our animals reflects how we treat each other ... And it's very important that we have a president who is mindful of the cruelty that is perpetrated on animals ..."~Barack Obama

"If all the beasts were gone, man would die from loneliness of spirit, for whatever happens to the beast, happens to the man." ~Chief Seattle

"A righteous man has regard for the life of his beast." ~Proverbs 12:10

"I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it."
~Abraham Lincoln

"...we sacrifice other species to our own not because our own has any objective metaphysical privilege over others, but simply because it is ours. It may be very natural to have this loyalty to our own species, but let us hear no more from the naturalists about the "sentimentality" of anti-vivisectionists. If loyalty to our own species--preference for man simply because we are men--is not sentiment, then what is?" ~C.S. Lewis

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being." ~Abraham Lincoln

"Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature, and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears. Would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell the truth."
~Fyodor Dostoyevsky (novelist)

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."
~Thomas Edison (inventor)

"There is not an animal on the earth, nor a flying creature on two wings, but they are people like unto you."
~The Koran

"Even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is Vanity." ~Ecclesiastes 3:19

"It should not be believed that all beings exist for the sake of the existence of man. On the contrary, all the other beings too have been intended for their own sakes and not for the sake of anything else."
~Maimonides (physician and philosopher)

"Not to hurt our humble brethren (the animals) is our first duty to them, but to stop there is not enough. We have a higher mission--to be of service to them whenever they require it... If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."
~Saint Francis of Assisi (mystic and preacher)

"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
~Pythagoras (philosopher and mathematician)

"Compassion for animals is intimately connected with goodness of character; and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man." ~Arthur Schopenhauer (philosopher)

“Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to a man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures." ~The Dalai Lama

“Today more than ever before life must be characterized by a sense of Universal Responsibility, not only nation to nation and human to human, but also human to other forms of life.” ~The Dalai Lama

“A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal.” ~Proverbs 12:10

“I will make a covenant on behalf of Israel with the wild beasts, the birds of the air, and the things that creep on the hearths that all living creatures may lie down without living in fear.” ~Hosea 2:18

“Whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do it unto me."
~Matthew 25:40

“Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God.” ~Luke 12:6

And this last one in particular reference to our skwerls:

"The squirrel that you kill in jest, dies in earnest."
~Henry David Thoreau (essayist and poet)


Note, I'm not saying the production company is the great uncaring Satan of animal neglect and abuse. I am saying that maybe, just maybe, the film industry could look more widely at the conditions their animals face not only on the set but in how they are kept and treated while under the duration of the time they are used in films because we have an obligation towards all sentient creatures.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:28 PM   #18
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Those are all good quotes. And I hope that people can learn from them. I also hope that Peter Jackson is telling the truth and that all the facts right now are over exaggerations.
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