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View Poll Results: Do balrogs have wings?
Yes 114 58.16%
No 82 41.84%
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-24-2005, 09:48 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Yes, Nasmith's Balrogs are not so good - though I'm very fond of much of his other work. Actually, though, I'm not that satisfied with a lot of Balrog art - this is one area where I think the Hildebrandts, John Howe, and Alan Lee are not up to their usual standard.
But how do you properly capture the image of a creature described in terms like "shadow", whose chief defining physical trait (wings) doesn't actually exist (remember, I'm a no-winger ) or at least isn't conclusively supported, and who is described as by Tolkien as having no need to speak as it's mere presence was fearful. In the same way as it had no need of a voice, it really had no need of a particular form (although it did have one) to evoke its terror. It simply WAS terror.

How do you evoke "terror" in a visual image?

I don't know the answer, but the answer of many artists would seem to be to fall back on motifs familiar to us as evil, such as horns and pointed tails (and wings? )
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:06 PM   #122
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Pipe It seems that Tolkien had already answered this question.

It was right before our eyes!

You might be surprised.
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:00 AM   #123
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How does "I won't answer" answer the question?
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:10 AM   #124
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Formendacil wrote:

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How do you evoke "terror" in a visual image?
You make a good point. Still, the Balrog must have looked like something. My ideal picture of a Balrog would be one in which the physical outlines of the creature were vague, in which shadowy-like "wings" are depicted without giving the unmistakeable impression of real, physical, bat-like wings, more a mass of fire and shadow than a clearly physical being, and yet with a man-like (though perhaps monstrous) figure at the center.

But that's just me.
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:06 AM   #125
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It occurs to me that I haven't voted. So, for what it's worth . . .

Yes, all seven Balrogs had wings.
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Old 01-25-2005, 02:11 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Yes, all seven Balrogs had wings
That maybe, or maybe not. Meanwhile, the numerous hosts of them marched on feet...

But such a claim by Aiwendil opens up the trouser of time for yours truly to slip in his theory (posted on the Downs long ago too ):

There are Balrogs, and there are balrogs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerenIstarion
The number of balrogs always was dubious thing. Passages like:

…and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds…

…and the number of Balrogs that perished was a marvel and dread to

the hosts of Melko…

…and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour about the breach…

(The Fall of Gondolin)

…a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants

that remained, and they assailed the standard of Manwe…

(Annals of Aman)

strongly imply the great number of those, at least several thousand. Yet these lines were written when Tolkien started to create his mythology, in 10s and 20s of XX century. In the same period balrogs were not summoned, but ‘wrought’ by Melko after the fall of the Lamps. Yet, since the conception that Melkor/Morgoth was unable to create anything but to mock the doings of others was introduced, the idea of ‘wrought’ balrogs was abandoned. Consequently and gradually, their number in Tolkien’s imagination diminishes, until it reaches the mark of ‘at least three, at most seven’. The last quote given above is mostly interesting in the view, for it was there, that in a marginal note Tolkien added:

Quote:
'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed
It may sound like contradiction in terms. Hosts of balrogs consisted of 3 persons? As a solution - there (I assume) must have been two different types of balrog. Philological analysis above does not contradict such a statement (i.e. Thunderbird may be applied to a bird proper, yet first thing one remembers upon hearing may be a Ford’s motorvehicle. Or, on the other hand, whales where thought to be fish before closer examination had proved they are mammals). So in this case balrog as general term is applied to anything that looks like one. And looks presumably may be altered by Morgoth (up to a point, for he disperses his power gradually, and, also presumable, must lose an ability after some point. (I.e. no more balrogs after certain time, but plenty before the point of no return is reached), who is Master of the Fates of Arda, had put important portion of himself into the matter of it and therefore has partial power over anything consisting of the matter. But Balrogs in essentia, corrupted spirits, e.g. Umaiar, are up to seven only. [and not created but 'summoned'] It would have been logical for Morgoth to conform the looks of the new adepts (if balrogs were formed from captive elves and men or strongest orks) to the most terrible looks (wings or no wings) of the Balrog

I suggest to distinguish those two types in writing with capital letter. Thus Umaiar whose number was determined as 3 to 7 will be marked as Balrogs, and the rest as balrogs
Self plagiarism, but timely one...

But my statement above stands as it is - hosts of balrogs indeed marched on feet, otherwise, why should 'boarding' Gondolin walls have been such a problem? Whilst Balrogs had at most 'shadow' wrapped around in the likeness of wings

Still more, at times my dentist qualifies for the title of Tormenting Demon as well...

cheers
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Old 01-25-2005, 02:31 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerenIstarion
Meanwhile, the numerous hosts of them marched on feet...
Well they'd look a bit silly marching on wings.

Perhaps they reserved their aeronautic abilities for formation flying displays and fly-pasts at Angband victory parades.
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Old 01-25-2005, 04:08 PM   #128
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I do not wish to enter this argument again, having already had my say, however I would just like to point out one small thing. The only published work of Tolkien regarding Balrogs is LotR. We cannot guess as to whether he would have been happy with the finished Silmarillion, nor anything else published after his death, he was a revisionist. Whatever is written in The Histories, are thoughts on the subject, who knows what his final version would of been. Quoting from unpublished works, to give strength to your argument is wrong. As I said earlier, the only thing we truly know Tolkien was happy with, are the words in Lotr, so read what they say.
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Old 01-25-2005, 04:10 PM   #129
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Re:

I can't believe anything in the History of Middle Earth is 'lawful canon' as far as the story goes.

I believe if something doesn't make it into the actual story, all versions aside, it isn't canon.

However, the thing about Balrogs and the HoME are that, aside from not being canon, it does give some more evidence at least to what Tolkien originally envisioned things looking like. Of course, if those depictions didn't make it to the books, tough break.

Anyway, it's not that hard to depict / draw / render something with vague features. Just use lots of black.

The darker, the more accurate. After all, if the Balrog's shadow was enough that it actually smothered out and blocked view of a gaping rift filled with fire, it must have been pretty dark.

Anyway, if you look at things this way, you'll get another notion.

The Lord of the Rings (let's can all Silm references for a moment) was supposed to have been written by Frodo and Sam, with a lot of account filled in by Merry and Pippin, and a fair bit of old history and higher matters that happened told to them by Aragorn. Gimli and Legolas theoretically kept in touch with the Hobbits and helped too.

So the idea is, Frodo (with help) was describing what he saw in that chamber. And it's pretty obvious he didn't see much, if his description is that vague. It seems pretty clear that all the members of the Fellowship could see Gandalf pretty clearly, and the chamber behind and around the Balrog was pitch black, filled with smoke.

The only thing that gave the impression of man shape in the darkest of dark places was probably the fact that the Balrog's hair (hair-like shape) was on fire, and highlighting the "humanoid silhouette" of the Balrog from behind.

Trying to humanize, or even 'demonize' the Balrog in the traditional 'demon' sense, just doesn't do it justice.

It's a spirit of fire, which is physically incarnate and wrapped in shadow. Fire, shadow ... neither thing has solid substance (clearly the Balrog does, otherwise Gandalf couldn't have grappled with it or stabbed at it). If it had no solid mass, it's own weight falling off the mountain couldn't kill it, and it wouldn't have needed wings to fly, being a gaseous entity.

Well, that's my two cents for the moment.
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Old 01-25-2005, 04:22 PM   #130
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Yes and why in all creation have wings that are of no use. it does not fit into the way Tolkien told stories. If they had wings, he would have given them flight. Like the dragons.
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:14 PM   #131
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Pipe

Quote:
How does "I won't answer" answer the question? (narfforc)
How come Tolkien left Bombadil ambiguous?

Quote:
If [Balrogs] had wings, he would have given them flight. Like the dragons. (narfforc)
Well, what if they were bereft of their power to fly, then stuck in a winged incarnate form? Like the Three Elven Rings losing potency at the fall of the One.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:27 AM   #132
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Sorry I do not go for the "What ifs", I only read what is. Show me where Tolkien says anything like that and I will conceed to your point, where does it ever say in the published (during his lifetime) works, that they ever flew. The only person who bereft them of the power of flight was Tolkien, by excluding it. This thread has a lot of suppositions in it. The only man that knew the Truth was Tolkien, and his are the only words that count. I can forgive our desire for more, I do it all the time. Our wish that this great piece of work could somehow have told us everything, but did`nt. So when discussing the written word of Tolkien, we must stick to what is plainly written and not let our imagination go too far. When I cast off this mortal coil, I like many of you will seek out The Prof, and ask him a multitude of questions. I assure you somewhere near the top will be the words Wings and Balrogs.

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Old 01-26-2005, 08:42 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
This thread has a lot of suppositions in it
Aye . That what makes discussion fun . If all were given and explained, what would be the point of us here? Why would we gather at all, typing heatedly? Whoever discusses things like 'Sun is hot' or 'Water is wet'? It would all come down to 'Tolkien rules!' confirmed by chorus of 'yes-es'. End of the board, everybody can go home now.

So, even most 'outrageous' blunderings sometimes made during the process should not be taken as personal offense never ever ever never. Still more suppositions are not meant to be offenses.


peace
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Old 01-26-2005, 09:01 AM   #134
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I agree, it is nice to discuss possibilities, to go beyond the written word, as long as we keep our feet on the ground. I am just not a big fan of "What If", especially when there is no basis for them. How can we get from the description of,

and the SHADOW about it reached out LIKE two vast wings.

to discussing whether the were bereft of flight in the dim past we know nothing about. The sentence does not say.

and its two vast wings reached out like shadows.

The important word here is LIKE. This translates into english as.

1. Resembling, similar to
2. Having characterisics of.

These are the words that Tolkien wrote, and as a Professor of English he would have known what LIKE meant
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Old 01-26-2005, 09:26 AM   #135
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I breath when I sleep...or do I sleep when I breath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
The sentence does not say.

and its two vast wings reached out like shadows
Good . Being an inveterate no-winger myself, can not agree more.

Yet my previous post just meant what it meant. It is not good to be involved on such a personal level

To repeat myself from a little bit earlier on, after all, the message I see the balrog bearing on (besides linguistic Vala+Rauko musings and derivatives, besides plot and tension purposes) is that even the most noble and radiant creature may fall, and the higher it originally stood, the lower its fall would be. Repetition of Morgoth/Sauron theme on a slightly minor scale. In this respect, it does not even matter (though may still cause a lot of interest) that much whether it had wings, six teeth or a floating kidney

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Old 01-26-2005, 09:52 AM   #136
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narfforc wrote:
Quote:
The sentence does not say.
You are right. I think there are two distinct types of "factual" questions about Middle-earth. There are those that have relatively certain answers (even if those answers are difficult to find) and those that do not. The question of Balrog wings falls into the latter category, I think. I am a pro-winger if divisions must be drawn - but I do not think that there is anything like a forcing argument for either side. This is in contrast to questions such as, for example, "is Ingwe the same person as Imin from the Cuivienyarna?", in which case I think there is a compelling argument for the answer "no", even though others may disagree.

That, I think, is why the Balrog wing question, the Elvish ears question, and the Tom Bombadil question are so notorious - not because they're any more interesting than other questions, but because they are simply not answerable, in any kind of satisfactory way.

HerenIstarion wrote:
Quote:
But my statement above stands as it is - hosts of balrogs indeed marched on feet, otherwise, why should 'boarding' Gondolin walls have been such a problem?
I would just like to remind those who are not so familiar with HoMe that this argument is not quite as forcing as it might at first sound, since the Fall of Gondolin was written in the 1910s, at which time there can be little doubt that they were wingless.
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Old 01-26-2005, 10:52 AM   #137
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OED rules!

Here, best as I can figure it, is the etymology of the word balrog:

bal is a form of the archaic bale, which is OE for "fire"

rog is a form of OE roge which means a "pyre"

So that makes sense, bal+rog = fire+fire. No allusion to wings or flying though. . .

Some other interesting tidbits:

ballyragging (from "to ballyrag"), means to attack someone with abusive language

rog means "to shake a person or thing"

Not really relevant, but interesting notheless.
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:26 AM   #138
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I would like to say on a lighter note
The Balrog could not even float
When it fell, from on high
We all know it could not fly.

Some may laugh and some may hoot
But it didnt have a parachute
If its wings, it did but hide
Then why did it, just not glide.

Some may think it was like a cloak
But come now, that`s beyond the joke
If wings it had, what were there shape
I heard it said like Batmans cape.

I met a Balrog once before
He came a-knocking at my door
I asked him then, "Where are your wings"
Upset he said, "I never had them things"

Please forgive my little joke
Fun at you, I do not poke
A laugh at this, I could not pass
I hope you all don`t think me crass.


NOMORIHERE
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Old 01-26-2005, 12:05 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
I would just like to remind those who are not so familiar with HoMe that this argument is not quite as forcing as it might at first sound, since the Fall of Gondolin was written in the 1910s, at which time there can be little doubt that they were wingless.
That is true, however....

It should perhaps be noted that there is no evidence that Tolkien's perception of Balrogs as wingless ever changed. There are many examples of elements in the Tale remaining unchanged from its conception circa 1920 until its last known form in the early 1970s. And their is no real evidence that Tolkien ever changed his perception of this aspect of the Balrogs.

- A thought from another convinced no-winger
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Old 01-26-2005, 06:09 PM   #140
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Formendacil:

Quote:
It should perhaps be noted that there is no evidence that Tolkien's perception of Balrogs as wingless ever changed. There are many examples of elements in the Tale remaining unchanged from its conception circa 1920 until its last known form in the early 1970s. And their is no real evidence that Tolkien ever changed his perception of this aspect of the Balrogs.
If we change "evidence" to "hard evidence", then I agree.

Fordim wrote:

Quote:
Here, best as I can figure it, is the etymology of the word balrog:

bal is a form of the archaic bale, which is OE for "fire"

rog is a form of OE roge which means a "pyre"

So that makes sense, bal+rog = fire+fire.
Allow me to pick a nit. This is indeed interesting - but it is not right to call it "the etymology" of the word Balrog. The etymology of "Balrog" is:

bal Sindarin, from primitive Quendian root BAL- = "power"
rog Sindarin, from root primitive Quendian RUK- = "demon"
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Old 01-26-2005, 06:55 PM   #141
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:13 PM   #142
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Quote:
Sorry I do not go for the "What ifs", I only read what is. (narfforc)
Well, although my theory above wasn't stated anywhere, it doesn't mean it isn't in the realm of possiblity. The fun of these discussions are, Tolkien created a world with rules. As long as you fall within those rules, almost anything goes (note the almost. There are some situation I cannot foresee now where the rules might not work.)

For example, I wouldn't say Orcs have wings, even though Tolkien did not explicitly say they did not have wings.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:14 PM   #143
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Here are my thoughts on that article.
Quote:
However, when I have asked people in many forums to try, no one has succeeded. You must use all four parts of the sentence. You cannot drop any part. It is simply not possible to rewrite the sentence so as to show something other than flight. Hence, there is no ambiguity in the passage concerning the Balrogs' mode of travel.
Quote:
In the final analysis, one must accept that the Balrog of Moria had wings because J.R.R. Tolkien said it had wings, and that the Balrogs flew to Lammoth because the sentence cannot mean anything else.
We shall see about that.
Quote:
swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.
Four parts of the sentence you say? Very well.
1)swiftly they arose--As he points out himself they were underground but even if that were not so it does not follow that they flew. Arose can be interpreted as they were in a sleep or simply idle and when they heard their master's cry they came forth once more. Indeed this is normally how I interpret the word when used in such a context.
2)they passed with winged speed--"winged speed" is an ambigous term. "Winged" is used here as an adjective to describe the word speed not the manner of their travel. Here Tolkien compares the speed of the Balrogs to the speed of flight. As a general rule one does not compare a thing to itself. So here "winged speed" means that they traveled with the speed of a winged creature. Actually when interpreted this way it becomes an argument against Balrogs flying.
3)passed....over Hithlum--this one needs no rewriting, one can run over land just as one can fly over it. Also there is the example of Fingolfin and his horse.
4)Tempest of fire--I see no reason that "tempest" should denote something coming from the sky. As I see it "tempest" could mean either sky or land it rather refers to the fire of the Balrogs erupting in their rath an covering the "battle field" of Lammoth.
So the new sentence would be: "Swiftly they came forth once again, and they passed with the speed of one in flight over(as I said I don't think that this need be changed at all) Hithlum, they came to Lammoth with there flames wreathed about them in a great tempest."
There you have it.

Quote:
The short answer is that they were Maiar and that Maiar can whatever they please.
The obvious problem is that they had become trapped in there forms and so could no longer fly (assuming they couldn't fly before they became trapped in that form).

Quote:
"what it was could not be seen: it was LIKE a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe yet greater".
This is not the same as saying that the shadow spread out LIKE wings. In this quote he has to say like because to leave it out would be to say "it was a great shadow". But the Balrog was not a "great shadow" it was a being with a physical form that was wraped in shadow. The meaning of "like" changes completely from the one sentence to the other as anyone can see.

I could go on but I am already late for something so I will leave it at that for now.
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:38 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
While I respect Mr. Martinez on a great number of Tolkien-related questions, and I agree with him on most, the Balrog debate is not one of them.

Quite frankly, Mr. Martinez does exactly what this and every other Balrog-related thread in every Tolkien-related forum across the web has done, and like just about every other fan, he has joined one or the other respective camps.

His is that of the wingers. Mine is that of the non-wingers. Each have their arsenal of evidence and it depends, with almost every piece, on the reader's perceived intention of the original author's mind.

There are times that I think we have gone so far into the minds of the characters and their world, that we think we have gone into the mind of Tolkien himself. We haven't, exactly, of course, but it is still a game that we play.

Did Balrogs have wings?

Of course not. It says so right there in the Lord of the Rings. If you read it the RIGHT way...
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:23 AM   #145
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Aiwendil - minor point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
bal Sindarin, from primitive Quendian root BAL- = "power"
rog Sindarin, from root primitive Quendian RUK- = "demon"
Quite so, but that Bal is as in Valar rather, whilst Balrog's Bal is:

Quote:
ÑGWAL- torment. Q ungwale torture; nwalya- to pain, torment; nwalka cruel. N balch cruel; baul torment, cf. Bal- in Balrog or Bolrog [ruk], and Orc-name Boldog = Orc-warrior ‘Torment-slayer’ (cf. ndak).

RUK- demon. Q ranko demon, malarauko (*ñgwalaraukō, cf. ñgwal); N rhaug, Balrog.
So still my dentist

1910's re: quite so. Just trying to see the picture as a whole. (Cf threads like Two Gandalfs and Evil Things)
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Old 01-27-2005, 03:16 AM   #146
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Like I keep saying, people are quoting things that Tolkien may have wrote, but did not ultimately sanction, You cannot quote from The Silmarillion, it was published after his death, and you cannot know if seeing that sentence he would have been happy leaving it in, especially after what had already been published in LotR, the SHADOW spread out LIKE wings.
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Old 01-27-2005, 06:17 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
Like I keep saying, people are quoting things that Tolkien may have wrote, but did not ultimately sanction, You cannot quote from The Silmarillion, it was published after his death, and you cannot know if seeing that sentence he would have been happy leaving it in, especially after what had already been published in LotR
Though I see your point, I tend not to put that much weight on published work as opposed to not published, and what is later as opposed to what was written earlier. After all it is all chance - per instance, should publisher's reader read early version of Quenta in 1937, instead of just seeing scraps of Lay of Leithian, who knows what order (and what kind of at all) books would have been published in? Does the printing press sanctify the truth? Tolkien was not happy with lot of things in his published works either, he just had less freedom to alter them.

Do not misunderstand me - I do rely heavier on what is published and/or what represents later view of the author, but still, I generally tend to view the legendarium as a whole (one may say, historically, or even 'historiographically'), as a complex compilation of sources. Quoting myself from C-Thread:

Quote:
we, readers ... of Tolkien, are free to use any of the texts (starting with the very first up to the very last) which we know to be canonical – i.e. by Tolkien himself, and apply to them our own judgement.
and part of the list from the same post:

Quote:
A) What Tolkien was creating is nearly as complex as the history of the world itself
B) What he did create, must be viewed (as he himelf was evaluating it as such, 'finding out' rather than 'inventing') as history derived from and depending on different and quite a number of sources as well
C) Following A and B, different sources need not be in agreement between themselves
(Cf also Two Gandalfs by littlemanpoet)

Following said, there is a place in my head for hosts of marching corporate balrogs and for 7 Balrogs corporate too but wrapped in shadow (even if two types of balrog be purely speculation of yours truly, after all. Freedom of the reader? I suppose, but inside the boundaries set by the author. See C-Thread again)

On the other hand, as any historian may agree, it happens that even most smart&clever bookworm may err reading his sources. I'm 100% sure it is not me who's erring in ripping balrog wings off (if they were there in the first place), I know I'm right, and, following narfforc, I proclaim the truth to stand as 'balrogs had no wings', but (and here we part company with narfforc ) source read-outs may differ, so everybody, who can not be convinced is welcome to have their own opinion on the subject

PS Funny how I, having proclaimed in one of my previous that 'physical form does not count that much' spent precious hour pondering the subject (I lost count of 'agains' to go at the end of such sentence )
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:13 AM   #148
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HerenIstarion wrote:

Quote:
Quite so, but that Bal is as in Valar rather, whilst Balrog's Bal is:

Quote:
ÑGWAL- torment. Q ungwale torture; nwalya- to pain, torment; nwalka cruel. N balch cruel; baul torment, cf. Bal- in Balrog or Bolrog [ruk], and Orc-name Boldog = Orc-warrior ‘Torment-slayer’ (cf. ndak).

RUK- demon. Q ranko demon, malarauko (*ñgwalaraukō, cf. ñgwal); N rhaug, Balrog.
Ah, so 'twas in the 1930s ("Etymologies"). But in author's note 28 to "Quendi and Eldar" (1959-1960):

Quote:
Some other derivatives [of *RUKU] are in Quenya: . . . rauko and arauko (< *grauk-) 'a powerful, hostile, and terrible creature', especially in the compound Valarauko 'Demon of Might', applied later to the more powerful and terrible of the Maia servants of Morgoth. In Sindarin appear, for instance, raug and graug, and the compound Balrog (equivalents of Q rauko, etc.)
So it would appear here that "Balrog" is the S. cognate of Q. "Valarauko", which is translated "Demon of Might" rather than "Demon of Torment".

Or perhaps there are hosts of "Demons of Torment" and a seven powerful "Demons of Might"?
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:53 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Ah, so 'twas in the 1930s ("Etymologies"). But in author's note 28 to "Quendi and Eldar" (1959-1960):

Quote:
Some other derivatives [of *RUKU] are in Quenya: . . . rauko and arauko (< *grauk-) 'a powerful, hostile, and terrible creature', especially in the compound Valarauko 'Demon of Might', applied later to the more powerful and terrible of the Maia servants of Morgoth. In Sindarin appear, for instance, raug and graug, and the compound Balrog (equivalents of Q rauko, etc.)
So it would appear here that "Balrog" is the S. cognate of Q. "Valarauko", which is translated "Demon of Might" rather than "Demon of Torment".
John Garth ('Tolkien & the Great War') gives an account of the origin of Balrogs & the original meaning of the name:

Quote:
Tolkien had listed several monstrous creatures in the 'Poetic and Mythologic Words of Eldarrissa & its ethnological chart: tauler, tyulqin, and sarqin, names which in Qenya indicate tree-like stature or an appetite for flesh. . . All these new races of monsters proved transitory, bar two: the Balrogs and the Orcs. Orcs were bred in 'the subterranean heat and slime' by Melko: 'Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal. . .' The name had been taken from the Old English orc, 'demon', but only because it was phonetically suitable. The role of demon properly belongs to Balrogs, whose Goldogrin name means 'cruel demon' or 'demon of anguish'. These are Melko's flame-wielding shock troops and battlefield captains, the cohorts of Evil.
The Balrogs were 'born' on the battlefields of WW1 & I can't help feeling that however much Tolkien's thoughts about them & their nature may have developed over the course of his life, what they meant & their appearance would have changed little in essence.

If we imagine German troops approaching through the mist & smoke of no man's land, spraying flame from their dreadful Flammenwerfers, I think its easy to see where Tolkien got the idea from. We can even see a possible origin for their 'whips of flame':

Quote:
The smaller, lighter Flammenwerfer (the Kleinflammenwerfer) was designed for portable use, carried by a single man. Using pressurised air and carbon dioxide or nitrogen it belched forth a stream of burning oil for as much as 18 metres.
(Good article here:http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/flamethrowers.htm)
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:05 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Ah, so 'twas in the 1930s ("Etymologies"). But in author's note 28 to "Quendi and Eldar" (1959-1960)
True. Still:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerenIstarion
I generally tend to view the legendarium as a whole (one may say, historically, or even 'historiographically'), as a complex compilation of sources.
+ rauko and arauko (< *grauk-) 'a powerful, hostile, and terrible creature'[/i] is both powerful and terrible/hostile



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Or perhaps there are hosts of "Demons of Torment" and a seven powerful "Demons of Might"?
Perhaps

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
If we imagine German troops approaching through the mist & smoke of no man's land, spraying flame from their dreadful Flammenwerfers, I think its easy to see where Tolkien got the idea from.
Plausible. Very plausible. My compliments . Thanks for the link, too. It is most interesting that on Somme, Brits already had their own flamethrowers ready (quoting from the article you linked us to, davem):

Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstWorldWar.com
The British, intrigued by the possibilities offered by flamethrowers, experimented with their own models. In readiness for the Somme offensive they constructed four sizeable models (weighing two tons each), built directly into a forward trench constructed in No Man's Land a mere 60 yards from the German line.
But those were not portable, though.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:17 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
Like I keep saying, people are quoting things that Tolkien may have wrote, but did not ultimately sanction, You cannot quote from The Silmarillion, it was published after his death, and you cannot know if seeing that sentence he would have been happy leaving it in, especially after what had already been published in LotR
That's what erasers and pre-death publications are for. Regardless of how [horrifyingly] much writing someone's got laying around, if a writer has written something that he wants to change, he will track down the proper page[s] and rewrite it. If he died before he could change it, than it stays canon, because it is what was last written. You can't say "what he would want now" because he's not alive now to want it. Although I'll stick with not wholly trusting C's work, because it is obviously not J.R.R's, I still insist on wings, whether or not they were made of shadow.

Before I thought of the wings in terms of an ostrich, or a dodo (<-also explains that inconvenient extinction), but after Saucie's article, I'm all for too big to fly around under ground.

Sorry if this post is a little admonishing, hurried, or offensive to anyone, but I'm in a bit of a hurry and have about 20 seconds before I have to leave.

Regards,

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Old 01-27-2005, 10:30 AM   #152
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Davem wrote:
Quote:
The Balrogs were 'born' on the battlefields of WW1 & I can't help feeling that however much Tolkien's thoughts about them & their nature may have developed over the course of his life, what they meant & their appearance would have changed little in essence.
I think you are right. Still, unless one accepts something like HerenIstarion's theory that there were in fact two quite distinct types of creature referred to as Balrogs/balrogs, there is some major change in Tolkien's conception of them represented by his correction, in the Annals of Aman, of a reference to a "host" of Balrogs, with the note that there were only "3 or at most 7".

Anyone who's really interested in that issue might want to look at this discussion in the New Silmarillion project.

HerenIstarion wrote:
Quote:
+ rauko and arauko (< *grauk-) 'a powerful, hostile, and terrible creature' is both powerful and terrible/hostile
Yes, but if "Balrog" is the cognate of "Valarauko" then the "Bal" comes not from NGWAL- but from BAL-.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:39 AM   #153
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Quote:
If we imagine German troops approaching through the mist & smoke of no man's land, spraying flame from their dreadful Flammenwerfers, I think its easy to see where Tolkien got the idea from.
Only if the German troops were flying toward the Allied lines with great big, entirely functional, wings.

(Very interesting link and information, though.)

narfforc: from LotR, written by J.R.R. Tolkien and published in his lifetime:

Quote:
it stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:30 AM   #154
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OK Fordim, you are just trying to annoy us no wingers aren't you? I must admit I gritted my teeth when I first saw what you wrote, you know full well the argument about the meaning of that quote so I will not bring it up again.
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:21 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan
OK Fordim, you are just trying to annoy us no wingers aren't you? I must admit I gritted my teeth when I first saw what you wrote, you know full well the argument about the meaning of that quote so I will not bring it up again.
I am well aware of the argument indeed:

1) The statement "and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings" conclusively proves that there are no wings, only shadows that look like wings. (This is a common occurence in the English language, in which the following sentence, "That animal looks like a dog" conclusively proves that said creature is a cat.)

2) Having proved incontrovertibly with the above sentence that the great shadowy forms that look like wings are in fact not wings, we can finally interpret the extraordinarily ambiguous claim that "its wings were spread from wall to wall" as meaning "its great wing-like shadows spread out from wall to wall".

How could anyone disagree with such unassailable logic?
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:22 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
Like I keep saying, people are quoting things that Tolkien may have wrote, but did not ultimately sanction, You cannot quote from The Silmarillion, it was published after his death, and you cannot know if seeing that sentence he would have been happy leaving it in, especially after what had already been published in LotR, the SHADOW spread out LIKE wings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil
That's what erasers and pre-death publications are for. Regardless of how [horrifyingly] much writing someone's got laying around, if a writer has written something that he wants to change, he will track down the proper page[s] and rewrite it. If he died before he could change it, than it stays canon, because it is what was last written. You can't say "what he would want now" because he's not alive now to want it. Although I'll stick with not wholly trusting C's work, because it is obviously not J.R.R's, I still insist on wings, whether or not they were made of shadow.
Tolkien himself, as his letters and his son testify, was very careful to stand by anything he had actually published. Consistency with the Lord of the Rings (and to a much lesser degree considering the lesser degree of facts to be found, in the Hobbit as well) was very important to Tolkien. Notice that he broke off his new theory about "the Problem of Ros" because it didn't jive with what he had written about Cair Andros.

Tolkien felt bound by what had appeared in print, hence the final editions of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings must be taken as solidly canonical. Anything else, while quite often demonstrably provable as Tolkien's last word on the subject, and quite often in step with his published works, cannot be given as high a proven standing, especially on matters where he changed his mind repeatedly, and did not seem to have made it up conclusively.

Therefore, with regards to the great Balrog debate, the only published references we have to go by are those in the Lord of the Rings. As Mr Martinez in the above article notes, and as I believe is correct, at the time of writing, the Balrogs (whatever their in-story origin) were wingless, and couldn't fly, and Tolkien wrote the chapter "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" with this intent.

Since the author never changed these passages, it must be held the Balrog in the Lord of the Rings is wingless. As already noted, the author spent great pains to keep his texts consistent. Thus, had he wanted winged Balrogs, he would surely have edited the passage in the Second Edition. Most likely, he never noticed the discrepancy, but that in itself is telling. I personally feel that it shows that Tolkien never changed his mind about Balrogs (whatever their origins) being wingless.
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:02 PM   #157
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Quote:
How could anyone disagree with such unassailable logic?
Good God Fordim you can be irksome. You will excuse me, I hope, for taking a torch to your straw man but the example you gave misrepresents the argument.
Quote:
Having proved incontrovertibly with the above sentence that the great shadowy forms that look like wings are in fact not wings
Notice that Tolkien says that "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings" not "the two vast wings reached out like shadow" or even that the "shadowy forms", as you put it, reached out. The subject of the sentence is "shadow" not "wings" or "shadowy forms".
Quote:
we can finally interpret the extraordinarily ambiguous claim that "its wings were spread from wall to wall" as meaning "its great wing-like shadows spread out from wall to wall".
It is not uncommon to refer to something(shadow) by a metaphor(wings) that you used earlier.
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Old 01-27-2005, 02:36 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwnedil
Yes, but if "Balrog" is the cognate of "Valarauko" then the "Bal" comes not from NGWAL- but from BAL-
Probably. I suppose you're right, but it still does not eliminate the possibility that the Sindarin word may be simple blend of both stems (like to the Orthank, or Galad[h]riel connotations)

Thanks for the link - I enjoyed evening of remembrance, re-reading that 'clash of civilizations' there . In case we move or update again, and the link is lost (as most of my linking of yore was), I repeat it here with the title and author:

Bye bye Balrogs by jallanite is the place Aiwendil invited us to visit

cheers
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Old 01-27-2005, 05:17 PM   #159
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I flew down the motorway last month, the policeman that stopped me didnt care if I was a shadow or not, he still booked me.
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Old 01-28-2005, 08:15 AM   #160
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