when was lotr? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sauron the deciever · 01-10-2004, 11:20 PM

HI, when I was reading the hobbit recently I started to wonder, when were these books (lotr and the Hobbit) supposed to have happened? In the Hobbit they talk about Yuletime and Thorin says: "This wont do at all, if we dont get blown off, or drowned, or struck by lightening, We shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky high for a football." They had football in the 3rd age? Also one of the Trolls says: "What the 'ell William was thinkin" I wouldnt have thought they would know much about hell and all..
Thanks

Rosenberg · 01-11-2004, 12:27 AM

I think somebody mentioned on some other thread not long ago that Tolkien estimated the 3rd Age occured some 5-6,000 years ago. But I'm not sure.

Lobelia · 01-11-2004, 02:48 AM

You just have to suspend disbelief. The Shire is pretty much late Victorian England, which Tolkien mentioned at one stage - the Diamond Jubilee, which was when he was born. The hobbits have matches while everyone else uses more primitive firemaking equipment, they have a post office and a museum, they eat fish and chips (Sam mentions this in LOTR) and drink coffee...you get the idea. The rest of the world is more or less mediaeval, even if it did happen thousands of years ago. The only anachronism he did alter was the mention of tomatoes in "An Unexpected Party" because tomatoes came from America. But so did potatoes and tobacco (hence the latter is called pipeweed and I think he hopes we won't notice if he calls the potatoes "taters" and "spuds").

Don't worry about it! Just enjoy! :-)

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 01-11-2004, 07:05 AM

Yeah, I heard that it was about 6000 years ago and we are in something like the 7th Age because they began to pass more quickly. But he wrote the Hobbit as a separate kind of thing and later decided to encorporate it into his legendarium, so he regretted putting in some of the things he did- like calling that stone troll 'William' for instance. As for all these odd food references- who cares? It hardly knocks the rest of the story out of sync, and hey, it's up to him anyway... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

burrahobbit · 01-12-2004, 05:17 AM

Middle-earth (LotR et al) exists in a fictional time period that never existed, some long time ago. It doesn't exactly fit anywhere, with all of the different cultures being drawn from more or less distinct and different time periods (ie the difference between Anglo-saxon Rohan and the Victorian Shire) The best guess is a few thousand years ago in western Europe. There are at least a couple threads out there that postulate that markers of the end of the Fourth Age. Probably they are worth reading if you are interested. I forget the exact details. I'm not in exactly a state to go find them (tired, caffeine) but they shouldn't be too difficult to suss out (search for seventh age/ 7th age).

Gurthang · 01-13-2004, 03:38 PM

They could hardly be that old. I mean, think about it, it talks about how Sauron used war machines when he attacked Minas Tirith, and Saruman uses a gunpowder-like substance in his assault on Helm's Deep. These are fairly modern inventions when compared to the actual age of the earth.

Maybe it doesn't matter at all, because they lived on a hunk of the world that was seperated from Earth when Iluvatar changed the world.

Or maybe our Earth is just the place where men go when they die and leave ME.

The possibilities are endless...

TheSquireof Aragorn · 01-13-2004, 08:18 PM

I know this is a little off topic but it was mentioned that we are believed to be in the 7th qage since LOTR, but my question is what historical events in our history would have served as the beginnings and ends for ages? For instance the birth of Jesus Christ i think could definetly be called the start of a new age.
If you think this is too off topic just give me a verbal smack and i'll start a new topic. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 01-14-2004, 04:16 AM

The imagined timeframe of the Legendarium is as stated above. However, that is just that - imagined. It plays on being actual history, but the author was well aware it isn't.

"G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era.
T: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes." (Tolkien interview with the BBC in 1971)

It's therefore unlikely that a bridge of complete history between the two stages imagination and reality is desirable or possible. This also explains seeming contradictions in technological or cultural advancement.

01-10-2004, 11:20 PM	#1
Sauron the deciever Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 28	when was lotr? HI, when I was reading the hobbit recently I started to wonder, when were these books (lotr and the Hobbit) supposed to have happened? In the Hobbit they talk about Yuletime and Thorin says: "This wont do at all, if we dont get blown off, or drowned, or struck by lightening, We shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky high for a football." They had football in the 3rd age? Also one of the Trolls says: "What the 'ell William was thinkin" I wouldnt have thought they would know much about hell and all.. Thanks

01-11-2004, 12:27 AM	#2
Rosenberg Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: GA Posts: 11	I think somebody mentioned on some other thread not long ago that Tolkien estimated the 3rd Age occured some 5-6,000 years ago. But I'm not sure. __________________ So much fun it ought to be illegal. Like copyright infringment!

01-11-2004, 07:05 AM	#4
Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon...or England Posts: 364	Yeah, I heard that it was about 6000 years ago and we are in something like the 7th Age because they began to pass more quickly. But he wrote the Hobbit as a separate kind of thing and later decided to encorporate it into his legendarium, so he regretted putting in some of the things he did- like calling that stone troll 'William' for instance. As for all these odd food references- who cares? It hardly knocks the rest of the story out of sync, and hey, it's up to him anyway... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ '"Forweg can lead you no longer; for he is dead...I slew him...I will govern this fellowship now, or leave it." "As it was when he joined us, so it is again. He kills to make room."'

01-12-2004, 05:17 AM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Middle-earth (LotR et al) exists in a fictional time period that never existed, some long time ago. It doesn't exactly fit anywhere, with all of the different cultures being drawn from more or less distinct and different time periods (ie the difference between Anglo-saxon Rohan and the Victorian Shire) The best guess is a few thousand years ago in western Europe. There are at least a couple threads out there that postulate that markers of the end of the Fourth Age. Probably they are worth reading if you are interested. I forget the exact details. I'm not in exactly a state to go find them (tired, caffeine) but they shouldn't be too difficult to suss out (search for seventh age/ 7th age). __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-13-2004, 03:38 PM	#6
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	They could hardly be that old. I mean, think about it, it talks about how Sauron used war machines when he attacked Minas Tirith, and Saruman uses a gunpowder-like substance in his assault on Helm's Deep. These are fairly modern inventions when compared to the actual age of the earth. Maybe it doesn't matter at all, because they lived on a hunk of the world that was seperated from Earth when Iluvatar changed the world. Or maybe our Earth is just the place where men go when they die and leave ME. The possibilities are endless... __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

01-11-2004, 02:48 AM	#3
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	You just have to suspend disbelief. The Shire is pretty much late Victorian England, which Tolkien mentioned at one stage - the Diamond Jubilee, which was when he was born. The hobbits have matches while everyone else uses more primitive firemaking equipment, they have a post office and a museum, they eat fish and chips (Sam mentions this in LOTR) and drink coffee...you get the idea. The rest of the world is more or less mediaeval, even if it did happen thousands of years ago. The only anachronism he did alter was the mention of tomatoes in "An Unexpected Party" because tomatoes came from America. But so did potatoes and tobacco (hence the latter is called pipeweed and I think he hopes we won't notice if he calls the potatoes "taters" and "spuds"). Don't worry about it! Just enjoy! :-)

01-13-2004, 08:18 PM	#7
TheSquireof Aragorn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 46	I know this is a little off topic but it was mentioned that we are believed to be in the 7th qage since LOTR, but my question is what historical events in our history would have served as the beginnings and ends for ages? For instance the birth of Jesus Christ i think could definetly be called the start of a new age. If you think this is too off topic just give me a verbal smack and i'll start a new topic. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "One more soldier dies, and when he gets to Heaven, to St.Peter he will tell, one more soldier reporting for duty, I've served my time in Hell."

01-14-2004, 04:16 AM	#8
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	The imagined timeframe of the Legendarium is as stated above. However, that is just that - imagined. It plays on being actual history, but the author was well aware it isn't. "G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era. T: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes." (Tolkien interview with the BBC in 1971) It's therefore unlikely that a bridge of complete history between the two stages imagination and reality is desirable or possible. This also explains seeming contradictions in technological or cultural advancement.