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Old 03-05-2003, 01:51 PM   #1
Michel Delving
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Pipe Gandalf's Ring

This may be a duplicate topic but I don't think so.

I was reading in the UT the quest for Erebor. Where Gandalf was explaining to Gimli and Frodo how things led to this point,
Gimli asks him (regarding how the ring of power was found and Smaug defeated.)

" But who wove this web? I do not think that I have ever cosidered that before. Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? If not then why did you lead Thorin Oakenshield to shuch an unlikely door? To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose the ringbearer -and to restore the Mountain Kingdom as mere deed by the way: was that not your design?"

Gandalf then explains that at the time he knew that everything was "meant to happen" But seems himself not to really know how all of his forboding proved right.

My question is this,

Since Gandalf wore the ring of fire, did he have some sort of connection to the one ring. In the sillmarillion it says, of the three rings, that they (the Elves) were aware of Sauron as soon as he put the (one) ring on.

Could it be that since he had the ring he perceived more of the one ring than even some of the very wise, mainly Saruman?

I'm open to any opinions on this

[ March 06, 2003: Message edited by: Michel Delving ]
Old 03-05-2003, 02:31 PM   #2
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I think Gandalf's chief purpose in this quest was to rid the world of Smaug, who could have possibly been utilized by Sauron in upcoming wars. There were no "detours" or the such to go look for the One Ring--the path Gandalf chose was the quickest way from Ered Luin to Erebor.

That being said, the Necromancer's presence in Mirkwood belied the fact that Sauron and his minions had some purpose in the North--the Wise may have suspected he was searching for his lost Ring.

I doubt though that Narya itself gave Gandalf any sense of where the One was located. It seems to me that the finding of the One Ring was merely coincidence--"meant to be" possibly, but that's Eru's design and not Gandalf's.

As to why Gandalf wanted Bilbo to accompany him on the quest--beats me.
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Old 03-05-2003, 09:13 PM   #3
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Could it be that since he had the ring he perceived more of the one ring than even some of the very wise, mainly Saruman?
Obviously, since he made no pass at acquiring it.

To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose the ringbearer and to restore the Mountain Kingdom as mere deed by the way: was that not your design?
Gandalf didn't expect Bilbo to find the Ring, nor was he aware that it was the One Ring until later on. Gandalf expected to find the One Ring, but not in the way he did. From 'Shadow of the Past':

'Though I am not sure that I understand you. But how have you learned all this about the Ring, and about Gollum? Do you really know it all, or are you just guessing still?'
Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. 'I knew much and I have learned much,' he answered. 'But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you. The history of Elendil and Isildur and the One Ring is known to all the Wise. Your ring is shown to be that One Ring by the fire-writing alone, apart from any other evidence.' 'And when did you discover that?' asked Frodo, interrupting. 'Just now in this room, of course,' answered the wizard sharply. 'But I expected to find it. I have come back from dark journeys and long search to make that final test. It is the last proof, and all is now only too clear. Making out Gollums part, and fitting it into the gap in the history, required some thought. I may have started with guesses about Gollum, but I am not guessing now. I know. I have seen him.'
[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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Old 03-05-2003, 10:37 PM   #4
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Stopping to think about matters, it does seem a little odd that Gandalf did not sense the Ring when he was in close proximity with it. The Elves with their rings on could sense the One Ring from across Middle earth when Sauron wore it. However, Gandalf could not sense it when he was standing right next to it. It is a bit strange that Gandalf and Elrond could not detect it when it was in their area.

Oh well, makes for a more interesting story.

[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
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Old 03-06-2003, 09:28 AM   #5
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Yes, but that was when Sauron was wearing it, correct? Gandalf was never in the presence of Bilbo when he was wearing the Ring, so might that not change if and how he would have been able to notice it?

Aside from the Party, of course, where Gandalf did indeed begin to have major issues with that ring.

Maybe Sauroman was correct when he said that Gandalf's love of the leaf may have slowed his mind. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Old 03-06-2003, 10:42 AM   #6
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To me it seems that there is a definite difference between simply wearing the One Ring, and wielding it as if you were the Dark Lord himself. To do the former, you might become invisible, or have unnatural age, but you are not claiming lordship over all the peoples of Middle-Earth. To do the latter (as only Sauron has done), you are openly declaring yourself as the Lord of the Rings, an act which would be noticeable to ring-bearers, Sauron himself, and other powers in Arda.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:31 PM   #7
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I always thought it very ironic that fire was something that could identify the One Ring, and Gandalf himself held the Ring of Fire.
Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul?
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Old 03-06-2003, 07:25 PM   #8
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Maybe Hobbit's just have a natural knack for finding lost Rings of Power? They clearly have a fairly good resistence (partially because Hobbits are fairly harmless things [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], maybe there's a reason Gollum and then Bilbo happened upon it, and maybe Gandalf knew/suspected this? Clever old wizard...
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Old 03-06-2003, 07:59 PM   #9
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I remember that in "The Hobbit" Gandalf suspects something after Bilbo escapes from Gollum and is also able to sneak past all the goblins in the guard room. I think all Tolkien writes is that Gandalf gives Bilbo a "queer" look, nothing further is mentioned of the event if I recall. Also, Gandalf did not openly wear his ring of power, he would be revealed to the enemy if he did.

[ March 06, 2003: Message edited by: Pukel-Man ]
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Old 03-06-2003, 09:19 PM   #10
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UT states that Gandalf's intention in motivating the Quest for Erebor, were two-fold.

1. He wanted to rid the north of Smaug, a potential weapon of Sauron and
2. He knew a dwarf kingdom in that area would sap crucial resources and attention of Sauron in the coming conflict.

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I don't feel safe in Middle Earth no more... I don't want to die in the ruling ring war... I want to sail away to a distant shore... and make like an ELF man
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Old 03-07-2003, 07:28 AM   #11
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Spot on, Adanedhel. That much is explicitely stated by Gandalf himself.
Petty Dwarf's point about fire revealing the One Ring, and the interesting parallel between this and the Ring of Fire that Gandalf wears, is an interesting one, although possibly coincidental. In the Silmarillion, when Crdan meets Gandalf at the Havens on his arrival in Middle-Earth, he concentrates on Gandalf's rle as an agitator against Sauron's blandishments, and the requirement that the Istari kindle hearts to courage and resistance, although there may well have been more to it than that: Tolkien was a great one for details of that sort.
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Old 03-07-2003, 11:39 AM   #12
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It could have been connected, but in the books I don't remember anything like a connection between the two rings. Gandalf might of felt something because he was a wizard and knew of the Ring. So there for he might see the eye.

"Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"
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Old 03-07-2003, 01:25 PM   #13
Michel Delving
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The rings were definitely connected. I agree that there is a difference between wearing the ring to disappear and wearing it to wield it to conquer Middle Earth. But, of the five Wizards only Gandalf had any forbodings about the one ring. Saruman knew more, but he studied the ring for much longer then Gandalf. Gandalf was also the only Wizard to have one of the three rings of the elves. It seems more than a coincedence that without his advice to Thorin, which seemed absurd to all the Dwarves, that the ring of power would never have been found.
Old 03-09-2003, 02:13 PM   #14
Lord Dargor
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The One Ring had long been forgotten in Middle-Earth when Bilbo found it, and why should not the Elven rings have forgotten some of it too? All the Rings lost some of it powers due to time and it is not unlikely that this includes their "relationship" with eachother. When Sauron had the ring, he most certainly pushed it to extreme levels and constantly pushed more and more energy in to it, so that he could always use it the way he wanted. The Ring's role is clearly reflecting Tolkien's almost hatred for new technology and industry, and since both technolodgy and industry depends on always updtating it self with new things, why not the Ring to? As said before, there is a clear difference in just using the ring and being Sauron and trying to control the world with it. It's like... uhhmmm, me and Microsoft: I use my computer and so does Microsoft, but since Microsoft is always updating their software and bracking the former limits, they get written about in the papers and I don't.

When then Sauron lost his ring, nobody continued to expand it's powers, and it therefore became nearly invisible and most probably lost much of it's powers.

The markings wich first were as clear as day, is now a secret that only fire can prove
I believe it was once written. That is a sign of the Ring losing some of it's powers because it was not united with it's master.

They are one, the ring and it's dark lord...
None of you probably understood anything of that anyway, so I'm not going to explain further. Did'nt make any sence, did it?
Old 03-10-2003, 10:25 AM   #15
Michel Delving
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First of all the ring was forgotten by people, not by the other rings of power. The ring of power did not lose any power at all, Isildur guessed that the ring missed the heat from Sauron's hand and that is why the fire writting had vanished. But time had no effect on the ring, and would not have had any effect on the relationship between the three rings of the elves and the ring of power.

If the ring that Gandalf wore did not have much to do with his forboding and forsight then what can it be attributed to?

Some will say "Eru's design", I wonder is there any other opinions on how Gandalf knew that certain actions would effect the course of the future, whether he knew it had to do with the ring or not.

Also in the UT, the hunt for the ring (iii) Concerning Gandalf , Saruman and the shire, there is a very strange conversation at the white council where Gandalf blows some rings of smoke at Saruman and reaches out to grasp at them and they vanish.

This is more evidence that Gandalf, wether consciously or not, knew that the Hobbits were somehow involved with the future of the ring.
Old 03-10-2003, 02:40 PM   #16
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I agree that the ring does not loose any of its power with time. The elves might slowly bwe loosing their power, but that has to do with their nature as elves and not with their rings.
As for the forebodings of Gandalf there are lots of people in middelearth who have forebodings in one form or another.
However, generally speaking the more powerful the person, the more aware the person is of the power and truth of his/her forebodings.
I think that writing in a mythic universe, and being aware of the narrative conventions of myths Tolkien uses forebodings as a literary device which is a vital tool to give the right feeling of fate or "doom" to what he writes.
And also I think that it is perfectly fair to just write of the origin of the various visions as Eru. he is the all powerfull source of everything, being the almighty creator.
If you wish to justify it otherwise, you might argue that Gandalf as a Maiar hails from beyond the confines of the world, and as such might have some insight into the future from the original song og Iluvatar...
In fact from the way he is described in Valaquenta he might even be the source of a good few of the forebodings which abound in the Silmarillion??
"...he walked among them unseen [...] and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promtings of wisdom that he put into their hearts."

anyway, that was my two pennies worth...
Old 03-15-2003, 06:48 PM   #17
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As has been stated before, the One Ring had a will of its own and for the time being It wasn’t at all willing to reveal itself to anyone save its Master (who was having problems of his own). What’s more important, I think, the fact that it wasn’t spotted by the wisest beings in M-E – Gandalf and Elrond (on Bilbo’s way back from the Lonely Mnt through Rivendel)
It just supports a crazy theory of mine [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] that the One Ring was capable of fulfilling wishes, even unconscious. No-one actually wanted the One to be found – and it wasn’t (for a time). Bilbo wanted just a magic ring to avoid problems and dangers – that’s all he got. Only when Gandalf gave a thought to it and started his search, the One was revealed.
Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века,
Чтобы ты - простил?..
А трава разлуки высока...
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