**RotK - Black Gate** - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 12-16-2003, 12:50 PM

Did you like the action at the Black Gate?

mark12_30 · 12-17-2003, 04:18 AM

That last line of Aragorn's, before the fray, that he says to Gandalf and the others, **really** got me. Totally excellent. I thought the Black Gate sequence was superb and really worked. THe caving during the Finale was just wild. Really wild. Better than Barad-Dur (which didn't do it for me. I thought the scene in TTT of Barad-Dur was MUCH more imposing and awe-inspiring than RotK images of it... And the eye just never got really bad... always seemed like a comic, sort of. But that caving at the black gate was so awesome, it made up for the rest.

***Gilthalion*** · 12-17-2003, 04:39 AM

It was all superbly done. The purists will howl, as usual, that this scene wasn't quite "by the book." After two years, I'm tired of arguing. The Black Gate was well executed. I'm expecting the Extended to add quite a bit.

burrahobbit · 12-17-2003, 05:14 AM

There was no Mouth. This was to be the part that finally put Bruce Spence on the international map, no more to be relegated to bit parts in cheesy movies. He was going to finally be an important character. What went wrong?

Lindolirian · 12-17-2003, 07:54 AM

Yes! I missed the Mouth of Sauron!!! I couldn't believe he was gone. Te look on Aragorn's face when he said, "For Frodo!" was awesome and made up for it though.I HATED the Eye of Sauron! It was like a cheap spotlight! It reminded me of something out of a bad 80s cartoon. I also hated how Mt. Doom seemed to be only a mile, mile and a half away when Frodo and Sam first enter Mordor. [ 8:58 AM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: Lindolirian ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-17-2003, 01:37 PM

I thought it was alright, but the scenes at Mount Doom were far more impressive. I just never felt that the heroes at the Gate were in any real danger. And the Eagles just showed up and it meant very little because we've barely heard anything about the Eagles.The Mouth of Sauron should have been there, surely! It would have left a far greater impact on the scene. As it happened we never really got to see any acting from Gandalf, Pippin or the rest.Which reminds me....why was Merry there? Oh, don't bother answering. I know why he was there and, to be honest, I don't have a problem with it at all. It didn't do any harm.

burrahobbit · 12-18-2003, 12:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And the Eagles just showed up and it meant very little because we've barely heard anything about the Eagles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's how it was in the book.

Arvedui24 · 12-18-2003, 03:06 AM

I will echo the earlier remarks, where on middle-earth was the Mouth of Sauron, i missed his insults and quick humour. In additon, what was the tactition playing at in Cormallen. Lets form into a circle and let the enemy surround us! Also, the whole earth collapsing to form a perfect shape around the Army of the West.

Lily Bracegirdle · 12-18-2003, 06:24 PM

I missed seeing the fellowship's despair and Gandalf's anger when Frodo's mithril shirt is cast down, but otherwise had no attachment to seeing the Mouth of Sauron. I agree with Arvedui that bunching up like a herd of sheep was *not* a good tactic. After all the insistance on realism in the movies, real strategy would have been better than just making a pretty image to prove the army was outnumbered. And where were the horses? I'm told war horses have "one good battle in 'em," but surely the Rohirrim would have brought extra?I liked Aragorn's speech, but wish there had been time for it to be longer. It wasn't enough to inspire me.Seeing Merry and Pippin charging after Aragorn was silly, but I still loved it.I ADORED the eagles. I was filled with absolute joy when they showed up. They were my favorite part of the scene. They looked absolutely real. I'm so glad they didn't talk. Marvelous.-Lily

doug*platypus · 12-18-2003, 08:02 PM

Absolute and utter anti-climax. Very tough to beat The Battle of the Pelennor Fields and Sam's victory over Shelob, but I think that The Black Gate Opens and Mount Doom could both have done a better job. I've heard the old 'wait for the extended edition' excuse time and time again. But to completely remove any sense of the passage of time in Frodo and Sam's journey or the ride to the Black Gate was the worst editing call yet. It felt extremely hurried, although I do feel some sympathy for Peter Jackson and the mammoth task he had to achieve. We can debate where he could have saved time elsewhere. Believe me, there were plenty of opportunities (again!).I was privileged enough to be present at the filming of Aragorn's motivation speech. I can tell you that it was at least twenty times as powerful then. Howard Shore completely ruined the moment, and I really feel bad for Viggo. Also I think that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> For Frodo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is second only to <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Let's hunt some orc! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>in terms of cheesy rubbish that Viggo had to put up with. Once again, PJ provided perfect cinematic fare, but did himself an injustice by not knowing when to stop.I felt that some of The Battle of the Pelennor Fields should have been saved for The Black Gate Opens, especially the trolls. After all, regardless of the size of the battles, this is the climax of the movie, as the fate of Middle-Earth is decided in the Sammath Naur.Although the eagles were superb and beautifully done, at least one line was needed in The Fellowship of the Ring or The Two Towers to explain Gwaihir and his boys, and their role as far as rescuing Gandalf. Those few shots of the rescue from Orthanc were not enough to explain that this eagle was part of a race of sentient beings fighting against the forces of Sauron, and not just a friendly bird. Boyd's line about <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The eagles are coming! The eagles are coming! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>meant nothing, as Gandalf already knew it. By the way, the middle of a pitched battle is no place for a moth. PJ, spare me that and instead give me Gandalf's most charismatic moment, when he yells out for the entire battle to stop while the fate of all hung in the balance.Having Merry at the Black Gate did nothing but add inconsistency. I thought that he should have been back at Minas Tirith with Éowyn. I guess it just shows that when you stab the undead wraith of a powerful king and sorceror, it stings for at least an hour or two afterwards. The friendship angle with him and Pippin had already been very well done, and there wasn't time for them to say goodbye to each other before the battle anyway!Legolas and Gimli's final words could have been done better, as well. It just wasn't very moving. The writers and the actors paid much less attention to this than to the hobbits, but well I guess it was a composite shot anyway, so what can you do?Excuse me... they fall into a crevasse? Every last orc? Oh, how convenient. I guess that will save about five minutes of screen time in which the good guys would have had to clean up.Aragorn: Well, looks like we've defeated the Dark Lord.Gandalf (holding stopwatch): Yes, and in great time! Wait til Manwë sees this! It's gotta be a new record!

Finwe · 12-19-2003, 01:15 PM

The part that I loved the most was when Aragorn yelled "For Frodo!" and charged at the Orcs, Merry and Pippin were the first to charge after him. It was just so beautiful that I nearly leapt up and wanted to charge into the battle after them. True, Aragorn had fairly cheesy lins, but those cheesy lines really show Viggo's innate charisma. That man is the One True King!!!!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-19-2003, 02:27 PM

Indeed burrahobbit, we didn't hear too much about the Eagles in the book, but Gandalf's words with Gwaihir had been noted. We knew that Gandalf had been carried by the Eagle twice already. Add that to the similarities between this and the ending of The Hobbit and the Eagles did mean something in the book.In the film we had seen one Eagle saving Gandalf from Saruman which, by the way, was never explained. So it really was quite different. And I don't think that the addition of that little bat (from The Fellowship) was a nice touch.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 01-09-2004, 07:59 AM

When I read the book I was left with the feeling that this last battle was much greater than that of the Pelennor Fields- not so much in terms of size, but in the stakes they were risking, the darkness and the total feeling of despair. Remember lots of the army went back because they were too scared? This didn't bring out the despair well enough...it almost seemed no trouble to go and risk their lives for hobbits they were not even certain would make it- let alone how far through Mordor they would be. And it would appear that that speech was by Aragorn!!!

Essex · 01-09-2004, 08:41 AM

Doug,Your point re "For Frodo" in terms of it being "cheesy rubbish that Viggo had to put up with".Viggo himself loved this scene. He explains this in the additional 'collector's guide' I got with the Xmas copy of Empire magazine (in England anyway)PS, I've read somewhere that in the EE version, Jackson will play the mouth of sauron scene inasmuch as the guys think Frodo has been captured and failed in his quest, and that the "For Frodo" line has much a different meaning to it. In other words it is for revenge, not for hope.PS I take it you don't like this movie much, Doug.... I pity you, you must feel the way I did after TT, but watch it a few more times, and you might begin to like it![ 9:45 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Essex ]

Phervasaion · 01-09-2004, 03:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "For Frodo" line has much a different meaning to it. In other words it is for revenge, not for hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ahhh... Now it makes sence. I always wondered why Viggo had that sudden sad expression on his face, now i know its because he thinks Frodo has died. I cant wait to see the EE now.

thephantomcredits · 01-10-2004, 10:16 AM

I'm pretty sure that is the chain of events. Mouth of Sauron out to confront them, Throw down the coat, and tell of Frodo's demise. How the mouth of Sauron is taken out I'm not quite sure though. It has been a while since I read ROTK. PJ may handle it a different way.

Finwe · 01-10-2004, 02:03 PM

Actually, you wouldn't even need a speaking part. All the Mouth of Sauron needed to do is throw down the coat of mithril from the Black Gate, with a haughty expression on his face, start cackling evilly, and then have the Black Gate open. That would completely explain that fleeting look of despair on Aragorn's face, right before he says "For Frodo!" BTW, doug, I pity the fact that you don't realize that it is the cheesy, corny lines that make the epic. ALL epics have them.

Gorwingel · 01-15-2004, 12:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PS I take it you don't like this movie much, Doug<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Doug is not usually this harsh about the film. I think this is just a rare moment But on to the Black Gate... I thought that it was okay. But, yes, I did miss the Mouth. Actually the Mouth of Sauron is in the video game, and you actually get to see the scene as it will most likely come out in the extended. It is really great though, because in the video game the mouth comes out on a single horse through the giant gate with no orcs around (very dramatic). And then he comes to Aragorn, drops Frodo's mail shirt at his feet, and then of course you have to defeat him (because it is a video game). I think it will be much better in the EE. Even though it really will never be as good because it will always have to play backup to the Sam and Frodo/Mt. Doom scenes.[ 1:59 AM January 15, 2004: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

Kaiserin · 01-15-2004, 05:02 AM

I too was expecting to see the scene with Mouth, but since a lot of parts in the films have already been inconsistent with the books, I just shrugged and went, "oh well". I'd have to admit that though I made several expressions of legalism while watching ROTK, i enjoyed it immensely. It seemed almost hilarious to me that every last orc was swallowed up by the earth, so I just imagined that there were a few who ran to the Misty Mountains or something of the sort.That "For Frodo" part was really dramatic - but just a little bit too dramatic for me since I don't happen to be a sucker for mush. The sudden silence and silly bouncing hobbits and all was a nice touch, for a film

Maéglin · 01-16-2004, 04:17 AM

It was all fairly predictable IMHO as soon as the "chapter: started, with the two hobbits charging with Aragorn to the troll *almost* killing Aragorn. I thought the lines between Gimli and Legolas was actually a firm nod to the fans, to highlight their special friendship. The battle, (what we saw of it) was pretty ordinary compared to the Battle of the Pelennor, but hopefully will be much expanded in the EE. But the scenes involving the fall of Mordor was quite well done, especially with the score The End of All Things playing in the background. I even forgive the Sauron spotlight beaming around as it is falling. BTW, does anyone think, or hope, that the reason for the two hobbits charging bravely into the forces of Mordor alone as a result of them believing that Frodo is dead. I sure hope so, because until then, all it evoked from me was a sad thought of thinking "what has PJ done with all these over the top dramaticism"

Thengal · 01-17-2004, 09:16 AM

Yeah, when Gimli says, "I never thought I'd die next to an elf." and Legolas says, "How about a friend." That just sums up their entire relationship through out the movie and is a powerful cinematic moment.

Evisse the Blue · 01-19-2004, 01:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"For Frodo" line has much a different meaning to it. In other words it is for revenge, not for hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> well, you could look at it that way, but I think it was about their sacrifice to allow Frodo to get his task done. I like the way, how the audience always goes deadly quiet right before Aragorn says that line (this has happened every time and I've seen the movie 5 times). they are holding their breath waiting to see what Aragorn will say in response of the Eye taunting him --it calls to him 'Aragorn, Elessar (did you notice that he uses the exact tone of voice the Ring did at the end of FOTR?), he takes a few steps forward, turns back to Gandalf et al, he has this slight smile upon his face and everybody stands in expectation: the audience and the characters. And then he says 'For Frodo' and rushes forward. So yes, it was a powerful moment.I remembered something I found slightly funny: when the 'Eye' (or maybe I should say the lighthouse of Mordor) starts speaking, and they cut to the reaction of the crowd, Legolas has this mildly curious look, as if thinking "oh, look, the eye is speaking... I wonder what's for dinner". That's funny -- the elf sure has a hard time catching on... And even if i did not find the "For Frodo" line cheesy in the context, I did not care much for Aragorn's speech. it was much too hollywoodian for my taste. And I noticed that when Viggo tries to raise his voice, it sounds high pitched and funny, so he's not a really good speaker for these grand battle speeches. IMO, that is.And another thing I found quite annoying was that jackson resorted again to that old ploy of 'oh, dear, will he or won't he die?' As if the destruction of the ring, Gollum's death, Frodo pathetically hanging by a hand over a precipice, and basically all Middle Earth in danger of destruction wasn't enough, Aragorn had to be in mortal danger at the hands of a troll, seconds before the Ring was destroyed! This tried my patience a bit too much!That's not too say I did not like the movie, as some seem to think that saying you don't like a certain thing means you hated the movie in its entirety. I just thought some things, especially, the Black Gate scenes could have been done better.Oh, and the coming of the Eagles, though wonderfully done (I loved how they battled the Nazgul), it would have been more powerful indeed if Pippin's line had preceeded it, instead of accompany it.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 02-18-2004, 06:23 AM

I think that the Black Gate scene was wonderful! Sure it included some "cheesy" lines but to me they are just fine and dramatic if I don't think that they're lame. Actually I enjoyed Aragorn's speech and that "For Frodo" line was very touching!

I disliked the "let's see if that mighty troll kills Aragorn before Frodo destroys the ring" scene but the overall impression of the battle was great!

Did you notice that when "the lighthouse of Morodor" crushed down, also the towers at the black gate collapsed? Why? All that was made by Sauron and the ring should have broken then but the towers weren't made by Sauron!

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-18-2004, 08:36 AM

Quote:

All that was made by Sauron and the ring should have broken then but the towers weren't made by Sauron!

...but the movie audience didn't know that!!

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 02-18-2004, 01:31 PM

Quote:

the movie audience didn't know that!!

...save me.
Oh well, at least it looked cool

Lathriel · 02-18-2004, 04:53 PM

I was kinda hoping that Pippin would get a chance to kill the troll chieftan because that is his great deed. However I like the black Gate scene and there is nothing that spoils it for me. as for Aragorn's speech. I didn't mind it at all and trust me I have seen way more cheesy stuff than the "For Frodo" stuff
If you think that is cheesy, well let me tell you there is much worse. (shudders at the terrible memory of a very cheesy movie)

The Only Real Estel · 02-18-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

I disliked the "let's see if that mighty troll kills Aragorn before Frodo destroys the ring" scene but the overall impression of the battle was great!

Actually I've got to admit that I didn't even notice this the first time I went to see the movie. For me, switching between the Battle at the Gate & Frodo/Sam/Gollum didn't work very well & left me with half a mind on the battle. It seemed to work ok other than that, though. I would've liked to see some of the orcs or men escape the 'creeping pit', only to be killed by Aragorn's men of course, just so it didn't seem quite so cheesy..ish.

Essex · 02-23-2004, 06:57 AM

Quote:

How the mouth of Sauron is taken out I'm not quite sure though. It has been a while since I read ROTK. PJ may handle it a different way.

In answer to this from page 201 of the weapons and warfare book by chris smith

Quote:

Sauron sent out his chief emissary, the Lieutenant of the Black Tower, to parley with them. Perhaps this act was intended as a final humiliation to his most feared adversary before he was crushed by the might of Sauron's host, but Aragorn instead dealt out justice to this Mouth of Sauron who had attempted to deceive him with his poisoned words

and on the next page regarding the Mouth of Sauron

Quote:

His final parley was with Aragorn, who concluded negotiations in decisive fashion, proving that his weapon was stronger than his opponent's

I read a couple of things into this. I think this means we'll have a fight, and that the MoS will 'deceive' Aragorn, ie tell him that Frodo is dead.

PS on the page before we have a clue as to where we will see Aragorn confront Sauron via the palantir. It states that Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron to let him know he is sending a troop towards the black gate for battle (a couple of days before het sets out from Minas Tirith) i.e. not in dunharrrow.

Quote:

Did you notice that when "the lighthouse of Morodor" crushed down, also the towers at the black gate collapsed? Why? All that was made by Sauron and the ring should have broken then but the towers weren't made by Sauron!

The Towers collapsed in the movie because they did so in the book. That is good enough for me!!!

Quote:

And even as he spoke the earth rocked beneath their feet. Then rising swiftly up, far above the Towers of the Black Gate, high above the mountains, a vast soaring darkness sprang into the sky, flickering with fire. The earth groaned and quaked. The Towers of the Teeth swayed, tottered, and fell down; the mighty rampart crumbled; the Black Gate was hurled in ruin; and from far away, now dim, now growing, now mounting to the clouds, there came a drumming rumble, a roar, a long echoing roll of ruinous noise.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 02-23-2004, 07:11 AM

Quote:

The Towers collapsed in the movie because they did so in the book.

Oh, my bad... it's interesting though that they collapsed. I'll go re-re-re-re-reading LotR if that would help

ArathorofBarahir · 03-06-2004, 02:50 PM

I absolutely loved the battle scenes at the Black Gate, I just hope PJ add the Mouth of Sauron in the EE. But besides that it was one of my favorite parts of the trilogy.

Lindalirien O Lorien · 03-06-2004, 02:59 PM

I agree with you ArathorofBarahir I was hoping to see the Mouth of Sauron too. I loved the Black Gate scene, not my favorite but one of them

Gil-Galad · 03-09-2004, 05:29 PM

Two things missed was teh Mouth of Sauron, and Pippin killing a troll! i mean come! can't pippin kill anything except that measly orc! Merry got to hurt the Witch-King, but what does Pippin get to do!? sit and talk with Gandalf about death and stuff.... i honestly, for teh whole film, i expected more... but it was still good

Numenorean · 04-16-2004, 04:06 AM

After seeing the movie a fair few times now, I reckon the Black Gate scene is pretty good. I definately thought it was a whole lot better before I re-read the relevant epic passages of the book and was reminded of how it really went down at the Gate.

Something (of many things) which I cannot quite fathom about the movie though, is the sequence right after Viggos superb delivery of the 'This day...' speech, he then seems to have a strange moment where we see the 'eye' of Barad-dûr flashing away in the background and we hear a couple of Saurons whispered 'Elessaaars' seemingly directed at Aragorn (which Gandalf also appears to hear). Does anyone have any ideas as to what that is all about, is it even real?

Diola lle.

Lathriel · 04-16-2004, 04:59 AM

I actuall kinda liked the Ellesar part cause it seemed as if Sauron was challenging him and it created a good mysterious slightly creepy mood.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 04-16-2004, 06:34 AM

Yeah, I liked it too. I had this impression that Sauron is calling Aragorn and somehow tries to fool him to surrender by whispering lies to him or something.

Numenorean · 04-16-2004, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Sauron is calling Aragorn and somehow tries to fool him to surrender by whispering lies to him or something.

Thanks, that makes a bit more sense to me now, I just wasn't too sure whether it was meant to be a parley - as the Mouth of Sauron was cut - or whatever.

Quote:

I actuall kinda liked the Ellesar part cause it seemed as if Sauron was challenging him and it created a good mysterious slightly creepy mood.

Yeah I liked it too Lathriel, the effect it had on the atmosphere of the scene was strangely unsettling.

Gil-Galad · 04-16-2004, 08:32 AM

too me it felt like Sauron was trying to corrupt Aragorn, but Aragorn remembered the reason of the diversion and continued on with the attack

Essex · 04-19-2004, 10:32 AM

but the voice of sauron could also tie in with the rumour that jackson filmed a fight scene between aragorn and sauron that ended up on the cutting room floor (thank god).

I've always wondered why Aragorn was getting such a tanking from a big nasty orc. In my opinion this was some work done by Richard Taylor to "airbrush" Sauron to change him into an orc!!!

Look at Aragorn's face as he turns to confront the orc. He looks pretty overwhelmed to me. What; Aragorn, son of arathorn frightened by an ugly orc? I think not!

I will wait for jackon's commentary on the EE and see what he says about this. you never know, my idiotic musings above might not be too far from the truth.....

The Only Real Estel · 04-21-2004, 07:52 PM

Quote:

but the voice of sauron could also tie in with the rumour that jackson filmed a fight scene between aragorn and sauron that ended up on the cutting room floor (thank god).

Yeah, thanks god the scene wasn't in there O_O!

That 'big ugly orc' is actaully supposed to be some sort of a troll or an Olog-Hai (don't ask me

), considerably scarier than an orc

. Still, Aragorn does seem to be a little to frightened...

samwise8504 · 04-29-2004, 11:36 AM

the mouth of sauron and pippin killing the troll will be in the extended version at least thats what i've heard.

12-16-2003, 12:50 PM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	RotK - Black Gate Did you like the action at the Black Gate? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

12-17-2003, 04:18 AM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	That last line of Aragorn's, before the fray, that he says to Gandalf and the others, really got me. Totally excellent. <P>I thought the Black Gate sequence was superb and really worked. THe caving during the Finale was just wild. Really wild. <P>Better than Barad-Dur (which didn't do it for me. I thought the scene in TTT of Barad-Dur was MUCH more imposing and awe-inspiring than RotK images of it... And the eye just never got really bad... always seemed like a comic, sort of. <P>But that caving at the black gate was so awesome, it made up for the rest. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

12-17-2003, 04:39 AM	#3
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	It was all superbly done. The purists will howl, as usual, that this scene wasn't quite "by the book." After two years, I'm tired of arguing. The Black Gate was well executed. I'm expecting the Extended to add quite a bit. __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

12-17-2003, 05:14 AM	#4
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	There was no Mouth. This was to be the part that finally put Bruce Spence on the international map, no more to be relegated to bit parts in cheesy movies. He was going to finally be an important character. What went wrong? __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

12-17-2003, 07:54 AM	#5
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	Yes! I missed the Mouth of Sauron!!! I couldn't believe he was gone. Te look on Aragorn's face when he said, "For Frodo!" was awesome and made up for it though.<P>I HATED the Eye of Sauron! It was like a cheap spotlight! It reminded me of something out of a bad 80s cartoon. I also hated how Mt. Doom seemed to be only a mile, mile and a half away when Frodo and Sam first enter Mordor. <p>[ 8:58 AM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: Lindolirian ] __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

12-17-2003, 01:37 PM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	I thought it was alright, but the scenes at Mount Doom were far more impressive. I just never felt that the heroes at the Gate were in any real danger. And the Eagles just showed up and it meant very little because we've barely heard anything about the Eagles.<P>The Mouth of Sauron should have been there, surely! It would have left a far greater impact on the scene. As it happened we never really got to see any acting from Gandalf, Pippin or the rest.<P>Which reminds me....why was Merry there? Oh, don't bother answering. I know why he was there and, to be honest, I don't have a problem with it at all. It didn't do any harm. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-18-2003, 12:26 AM	#7
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And the Eagles just showed up and it meant very little because we've barely heard anything about the Eagles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's how it was in the book. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

12-18-2003, 03:06 AM	#8
Arvedui24 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 26	I will echo the earlier remarks, where on middle-earth was the Mouth of Sauron, i missed his insults and quick humour. In additon, what was the tactition playing at in Cormallen. Lets form into a circle and let the enemy surround us! Also, the whole earth collapsing to form a perfect shape around the Army of the West.

12-18-2003, 06:24 PM	#9
Lily Bracegirdle Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bree Posts: 210	I missed seeing the fellowship's despair and Gandalf's anger when Frodo's mithril shirt is cast down, but otherwise had no attachment to seeing the Mouth of Sauron. <P>I agree with Arvedui that bunching up like a herd of sheep was not a good tactic. After all the insistance on realism in the movies, real strategy would have been better than just making a pretty image to prove the army was outnumbered. And where were the horses? I'm told war horses have "one good battle in 'em," but surely the Rohirrim would have brought extra?<P>I liked Aragorn's speech, but wish there had been time for it to be longer. It wasn't enough to inspire me.<P>Seeing Merry and Pippin charging after Aragorn was silly, but I still loved it.<P>I ADORED the eagles. I was filled with absolute joy when they showed up. They were my favorite part of the scene. They looked absolutely real. I'm so glad they didn't talk. Marvelous.<P>-Lily __________________ "But nay: the praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards." - Faramir

12-18-2003, 08:02 PM	#10
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Absolute and utter anti-climax. Very tough to beat <I>The Battle of the Pelennor Fields</I> and Sam's victory over Shelob, but I think that <I>The Black Gate Opens</I> and <I>Mount Doom</I> could both have done a better job. <P>I've heard the old 'wait for the extended edition' excuse time and time again. But to completely remove any sense of the passage of time in Frodo and Sam's journey or the ride to the Black Gate was the worst editing call yet. It felt extremely hurried, although I do feel some sympathy for Peter Jackson and the mammoth task he had to achieve. We can debate where he could have saved time elsewhere. Believe me, there were plenty of opportunities (again!).<P>I was privileged enough to be present at the filming of Aragorn's motivation speech. I can tell you that it was at least twenty times as powerful then. Howard Shore completely ruined the moment, and I really feel bad for Viggo. Also I think that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> For Frodo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is second only to <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Let's hunt some orc! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>in terms of cheesy rubbish that Viggo had to put up with. Once again, PJ provided perfect cinematic fare, but did himself an injustice by not knowing when to stop.<P>I felt that some of <I>The Battle of the Pelennor Fields</I> should have been saved for <I>The Black Gate Opens</I>, especially the trolls. After all, regardless of the size of the battles, <B>this</B> is the climax of the movie, as the fate of Middle-Earth is decided in the Sammath Naur.<P>Although the eagles were superb and beautifully done, at least one line was needed in <I>The Fellowship of the Ring</I> or <I>The Two Towers</I> to explain Gwaihir and his boys, and their role as far as rescuing Gandalf. Those few shots of the rescue from Orthanc were not enough to explain that this eagle was part of a race of sentient beings fighting against the forces of Sauron, and not just a friendly bird. Boyd's line about <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The eagles are coming! The eagles are coming! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>meant nothing, as Gandalf already knew it. By the way, the middle of a pitched battle is no place for a moth. PJ, spare me that and instead give me Gandalf's most charismatic moment, when he yells out for the entire battle to stop while the fate of all hung in the balance.<P>Having Merry at the Black Gate did nothing but add inconsistency. I thought that he should have been back at Minas Tirith with Éowyn. I guess it just shows that when you stab the undead wraith of a powerful king and sorceror, it stings for at least an hour or two afterwards. The friendship angle with him and Pippin had already been very well done, and there wasn't time for them to say goodbye to each other before the battle anyway!<P>Legolas and Gimli's final words could have been done better, as well. It just wasn't very moving. The writers and the actors paid much less attention to this than to the hobbits, but well I guess it was a composite shot anyway, so what can you do?<P>Excuse me... they fall into a crevasse? Every last orc? Oh, how convenient. I guess that will save about five minutes of screen time in which the good guys would have had to clean up.<P><I>Aragorn</I>: Well, looks like we've defeated the Dark Lord.<P><I>Gandalf (holding stopwatch)</I>: Yes, and in great time! Wait til Manwë sees this! It's gotta be a new record! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-19-2003, 01:15 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The part that I loved the most was when Aragorn yelled "For Frodo!" and charged at the Orcs, Merry and Pippin were the first to charge after him. It was just so beautiful that I nearly leapt up and wanted to charge into the battle after them. True, Aragorn had fairly cheesy lins, but those cheesy lines really show Viggo's innate charisma. That man is the One True King!!!! __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-19-2003, 02:27 PM	#12
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	Indeed <B>burrahobbit</B>, we didn't hear too much about the Eagles in the book, but Gandalf's words with Gwaihir had been noted. We knew that Gandalf had been carried by the Eagle twice already. Add that to the similarities between this and the ending of <I>The Hobbit</I> and the Eagles did mean something in the book.<P>In the film we had seen one Eagle saving Gandalf from Saruman which, by the way, was never explained. So it really was quite different. And I don't think that the addition of that little bat (from <I>The Fellowship</I>) was a nice touch. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

01-09-2004, 07:59 AM	#13
Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon...or England Posts: 364	When I read the book I was left with the feeling that this last battle was much greater than that of the Pelennor Fields- not so much in terms of size, but in the stakes they were risking, the darkness and the total feeling of despair. Remember lots of the army went back because they were too scared? This didn't bring out the despair well enough...it almost seemed no trouble to go and risk their lives for hobbits they were not even certain would make it- let alone how far through Mordor they would be.<BR>And it would appear that that speech <B>was</B> by Aragorn!!! __________________ '"Forweg can lead you no longer; for he is dead...I slew him...I will govern this fellowship now, or leave it." "As it was when he joined us, so it is again. He kills to make room."'

01-09-2004, 08:41 AM	#14
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	Doug,<P>Your point re "For Frodo" in terms of it being "cheesy rubbish that Viggo had to put up with".<P>Viggo himself loved this scene. He explains this in the additional 'collector's guide' I got with the Xmas copy of Empire magazine (in England anyway)<P>PS, I've read somewhere that in the EE version, Jackson will play the mouth of sauron scene inasmuch as the guys think Frodo has been captured and failed in his quest, and that the "For Frodo" line has much a different meaning to it. In other words it is for revenge, not for hope.<P>PS I take it you don't like this movie much, Doug.... I pity you, you must feel the way I did after TT, but watch it a few more times, and you might begin to like it!<p>[ 9:45 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Essex ]

01-09-2004, 03:06 PM	#15
Phervasaion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The wilderness of Middle-Earth Posts: 306	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "For Frodo" line has much a different meaning to it. In other words it is for revenge, not for hope.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ahhh... Now it makes sence. I always wondered why Viggo had that sudden sad expression on his face, now i know its because he thinks Frodo has died. I cant wait to see the EE now. __________________ Phervasaion

01-10-2004, 10:16 AM	#16
thephantomcredits Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: USA Posts: 33	I'm pretty sure that is the chain of events. Mouth of Sauron out to confront them, Throw down the coat, and tell of Frodo's demise. How the mouth of Sauron is taken out I'm not quite sure though. It has been a while since I read ROTK. PJ may handle it a different way. __________________ unity in what is essential, liberty in the nonessential

01-10-2004, 02:03 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Actually, you wouldn't even need a speaking part. All the Mouth of Sauron needed to do is throw down the coat of mithril from the Black Gate, with a haughty expression on his face, start cackling evilly, and then have the Black Gate open. That would completely explain that fleeting look of despair on Aragorn's face, right before he says "For Frodo!"<P><BR>BTW, doug, I pity the fact that you don't realize that it is the cheesy, corny lines that make the epic. ALL epics have them. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-15-2004, 12:57 AM	#18
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,436	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PS I take it you don't like this movie much, Doug<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Doug is not usually this harsh about the film. I think this is just a rare moment <P>But on to the Black Gate... I thought that it was okay. But, yes, I did miss the Mouth. Actually the Mouth of Sauron is in the video game, and you actually get to see the scene as it will most likely come out in the extended. It is really great though, because in the video game the mouth comes out on a single horse through the giant gate with no orcs around (very dramatic). And then he comes to Aragorn, drops Frodo's mail shirt at his feet, and then of course you have to defeat him (because it is a video game).<BR>I think it will be much better in the EE. Even though it really will never be as good because it will always have to play backup to the Sam and Frodo/Mt. Doom scenes.<p>[ 1:59 AM January 15, 2004: Message edited by: Gorwingel ] __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

01-15-2004, 05:02 AM	#19
Kaiserin Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cair Paravel Posts: 150	I too was expecting to see the scene with Mouth, but since a lot of parts in the films have already been inconsistent with the books, I just shrugged and went, "oh well". I'd have to admit that though I made several expressions of legalism while watching ROTK, i enjoyed it immensely. <P>It seemed almost hilarious to me that every last orc was swallowed up by the earth, so I just imagined that there were a few who ran to the Misty Mountains or something of the sort.<P>That "For Frodo" part was really dramatic - but just a little bit <I>too</I> dramatic for me since I don't happen to be a sucker for mush. The sudden silence and silly bouncing hobbits and all was a nice touch, <I>for a film</I> __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

01-16-2004, 04:17 AM	#20
Maéglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 99	It was all fairly predictable IMHO as soon as the "chapter: started, with the two hobbits charging with Aragorn to the troll almost killing Aragorn. I thought the lines between Gimli and Legolas was actually a firm nod to the fans, to highlight their special friendship. The battle, (what we saw of it) was pretty ordinary compared to the Battle of the Pelennor, but hopefully will be much expanded in the EE. But the scenes involving the fall of Mordor was quite well done, especially with the score The End of All Things playing in the background. I even forgive the Sauron spotlight beaming around as it is falling. <P>BTW, does anyone think, or hope, that the reason for the two hobbits charging bravely into the forces of Mordor alone as a result of them believing that Frodo is dead. I sure hope so, because until then, all it evoked from me was a sad thought of thinking "what has PJ done with all these over the top dramaticism"

01-17-2004, 09:16 AM	#21
Thengal Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 63	Yeah, when Gimli says, "I never thought I'd die next to an elf." and Legolas says, "How about a friend." That just sums up their entire relationship through out the movie and is a powerful cinematic moment.

01-19-2004, 01:12 AM	#22
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,740	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"For Frodo" line has much a different meaning to it. In other words it is for revenge, not for hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well, you could look at it that way, but I think it was about their sacrifice to allow Frodo to get his task done. I like the way, how the audience always goes deadly quiet right before Aragorn says that line (this has happened every time and I've seen the movie 5 times). they are holding their breath waiting to see what Aragorn will say in response of the Eye taunting him --it calls to him 'Aragorn, Elessar (did you notice that he uses the exact tone of voice the Ring did at the end of FOTR?), he takes a few steps forward, turns back to Gandalf et al, he has this slight smile upon his face and everybody stands in expectation: the audience and the characters. And then he says 'For Frodo' and rushes forward. So yes, it was a powerful moment.<P>I remembered something I found slightly funny: when the 'Eye' (or maybe I should say the lighthouse of Mordor) starts speaking, and they cut to the reaction of the crowd, Legolas has this mildly curious look, as if thinking "oh, look, the eye is speaking... I wonder what's for dinner". That's funny -- the elf sure has a hard time catching on... <P>And even if i did not find the "For Frodo" line cheesy in the context, I did not care much for Aragorn's speech. it was much too hollywoodian for my taste. And I noticed that when Viggo tries to raise his voice, it sounds high pitched and funny, so he's not a really good speaker for these grand battle speeches. IMO, that is.<P>And another thing I found quite annoying was that jackson resorted again to that old ploy of 'oh, dear, will he or won't he die?' As if the destruction of the ring, Gollum's death, Frodo pathetically hanging by a hand over a precipice, and basically all Middle Earth in danger of destruction wasn't enough, Aragorn had to be in mortal danger at the hands of a troll, seconds before the Ring was destroyed! This tried my patience a bit too much!<P>That's not too say I did not like the movie, as some seem to think that saying you don't like a certain thing means you hated the movie in its entirety. I just thought some things, especially, the Black Gate scenes could have been done better.<P>Oh, and the coming of the Eagles, though wonderfully done (I loved how they battled the Nazgul), it would have been more powerful indeed if Pippin's line had preceeded it, instead of accompany it. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

02-18-2004, 06:23 AM	#23
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,267	I think that the Black Gate scene was wonderful! Sure it included some "cheesy" lines but to me they are just fine and dramatic if I don't think that they're lame. Actually I enjoyed Aragorn's speech and that "For Frodo" line was very touching! I disliked the "let's see if that mighty troll kills Aragorn before Frodo destroys the ring" scene but the overall impression of the battle was great! Did you notice that when "the lighthouse of Morodor" crushed down, also the towers at the black gate collapsed? Why? All that was made by Sauron and the ring should have broken then but the towers weren't made by Sauron! __________________ Fenris Wolf

02-18-2004, 04:53 PM	#26
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	I was kinda hoping that Pippin would get a chance to kill the troll chieftan because that is his great deed. However I like the black Gate scene and there is nothing that spoils it for me. as for Aragorn's speech. I didn't mind it at all and trust me I have seen way more cheesy stuff than the "For Frodo" stuff If you think that is cheesy, well let me tell you there is much worse. (shudders at the terrible memory of a very cheesy movie) __________________ Back again

03-06-2004, 02:50 PM	#30
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	I absolutely loved the battle scenes at the Black Gate, I just hope PJ add the Mouth of Sauron in the EE. But besides that it was one of my favorite parts of the trilogy. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

03-06-2004, 02:59 PM	#31
Lindalirien O Lorien Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The Golden Wood Posts: 17	I agree with you ArathorofBarahir I was hoping to see the Mouth of Sauron too. I loved the Black Gate scene, not my favorite but one of them __________________ Faithful servent yet master's bane, Lightfoot's foal Snowmane

03-09-2004, 05:29 PM	#32
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 5,054	Two things missed was teh Mouth of Sauron, and Pippin killing a troll! i mean come! can't pippin kill anything except that measly orc! Merry got to hurt the Witch-King, but what does Pippin get to do!? sit and talk with Gandalf about death and stuff.... i honestly, for teh whole film, i expected more... but it was still good __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

04-16-2004, 04:06 AM	#33
Numenorean Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bay of Eldanna Posts: 94	After seeing the movie a fair few times now, I reckon the Black Gate scene is pretty good. I definately thought it was a whole lot better before I re-read the relevant epic passages of the book and was reminded of how it really went down at the Gate. Something (of many things) which I cannot quite fathom about the movie though, is the sequence right after Viggos superb delivery of the 'This day...' speech, he then seems to have a strange moment where we see the 'eye' of Barad-dûr flashing away in the background and we hear a couple of Saurons whispered 'Elessaaars' seemingly directed at Aragorn (which Gandalf also appears to hear). Does anyone have any ideas as to what that is all about, is it even real? Diola lle. __________________ '…Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands, and thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset…'

04-16-2004, 04:59 AM	#34
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	I actuall kinda liked the Ellesar part cause it seemed as if Sauron was challenging him and it created a good mysterious slightly creepy mood. __________________ Back again

04-16-2004, 06:34 AM	#35
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,267	Yeah, I liked it too. I had this impression that Sauron is calling Aragorn and somehow tries to fool him to surrender by whispering lies to him or something. __________________ Fenris Wolf

04-16-2004, 08:32 AM	#37
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 5,054	too me it felt like Sauron was trying to corrupt Aragorn, but Aragorn remembered the reason of the diversion and continued on with the attack __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

04-19-2004, 10:32 AM	#38
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	but the voice of sauron could also tie in with the rumour that jackson filmed a fight scene between aragorn and sauron that ended up on the cutting room floor (thank god). I've always wondered why Aragorn was getting such a tanking from a big nasty orc. In my opinion this was some work done by Richard Taylor to "airbrush" Sauron to change him into an orc!!! Look at Aragorn's face as he turns to confront the orc. He looks pretty overwhelmed to me. What; Aragorn, son of arathorn frightened by an ugly orc? I think not! I will wait for jackon's commentary on the EE and see what he says about this. you never know, my idiotic musings above might not be too far from the truth.....

04-29-2004, 11:36 AM	#40
samwise8504 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Newcastle England Posts: 47	the mouth of sauron and pippin killing the troll will be in the extended version at least thats what i've heard.