They Shall Not Pass!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I was listening to the song "Viva la Quinta Brigada" by Christy Moore, the song is about the Irish socialist volunteers who went to Spain to fight against Franco and the fascists during the Spanish Civil War.

There where some bits I did not understand so I looked up the song and found this passage in the refraint.

""No Pasarán" the pledge that made them fight."

"No Pasarán" means "They Shall Not Pass", apparantly the most famouse version is the french "Ils ne passeront pas"

it is a propaganda slogan used to express determination to defend a position against an enemy. It was most famously used during the Battle of Verdun in World War I by French General Robert Nivelle. It appears on propaganda posters, such as that by Maurice Neumont after the Second Battle of the Marne, as On ne passe pas!, which was later adopted on uniform badges by units manning the Maginot Line.

I know that Tolkien was not at the Battle of Verdun, but he did serve on the west-front.

My question is this: Does Tolkien ever speak about whether this was his inspiration for Gandalfs "You shall not pass" and if not what do you think?

Do any of you think that Tolkien is making any point by using this phrase or did he just think that it was brilliant?

Personaly I don't like making connections to actual events, but I would still like to know what you think on the subject.

[Raynor]

I have the impression that this is a somewhat of a standard slogan everywhere. For example, during WWII, a similar version of it circulated concerning the protection of a mountain pass into Transylvania ("there is no passing through here!"). I guess it is similar to a "stand your ground" order to soldiers; Tolkien, having served in the military, would not be a stranger to this.

[The Might]

Bah, I actually was going to say the same thing as Raynor just did.
I guess such a phrase is a good way to raise the moral of the soldiers, give them some more self-confidence and prepare them for the battle.

Though Gandalf doesn't want to raise anyone's moral, but instead to intimidate his opponent and maybe make him retreat.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I have the impression that this is a somewhat of a standard slogan everywhere. For example, during WWII, a similar version of it circulated concerning the protection of a mountain pass into Transylvania ("there is no passing through here!"). I guess it is similar to a "stand your ground" order to soldiers; Tolkien, having served in the military, would not be a stranger to this.

I of course knew of "stand your ground" but that is more of a command, where as the other is a pledge, a moral booster. For me it holds much more than a simple statement about not letting the enemy through, it is a thing that can unite and make people stand together.

Anyways I did not know it was also used in WWII, that somewhat decreases the importance of Tolkien serving at the west front during WWII.

I just found it very interesting that this saying was made famouse in a war that Tolkien participated in and on the same front. I got some idea that maybe these words had inspired him in some way or maybe even have ment something for him during the war. . .

[Lalwendë]

You're correct Rune, it is a very different kind of phrase. Not only is it more succinct but it is spoken as a Word Of Command - not to soldiers but to a 'supernatural being'. What Gandalf says is an attempt at a spell, and likewise, words composed to boost morale such as On ne passe pas are attempts at 'spellbinding', at capturing hearts and minds. It's a very subtle difference.

[Lalwendë]

Rune reminded me of this yesterday!

I had been looking into some of the history of the Battle of Cable Street (which took place in 1936 in London's East End) and one of the things that struck me was how the massed ranks of anti-fascists used the refrain No Pasaran! Which as Rune states translates into They Shall Not Pass.

I didn't realise, though, just how famous this phrase is. It was indeed first coined in WWI, but mostly at the time used by the French. The real fame of the phrase came about because of use at both Cable Street and the Siege of Madrid, which began earlier the same year - No Pasaran! was so well known that when Franco finally led his fascist forces into Madrid, he declared 'Hemos pasado' (I have passed).

And it's still in widespread use today, including by those who stand against the EDL in England. It is indeed so much more than a simple command, it's a rallying cry and I have no doubt Tolkien would have been very much aware of it. I'm quite pleased about this, following on from accusations from less well-informed types that his work is 'fascistic'. Anything but.

[Galadriel55]

Just want to point out that although "you shall not pass" is the way we remember the phrase, and this way it sounds more majestic - and this is the one used in the movies - Tolkien wrote "You cannot pass".

Would this affect the debate?

In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact.

[HerenIstarion]

Briefly

I think this is just an expression of defiance in the face of the presumably stronger or evenly matched enemy, set on passing certain [narrow] point

I don't think it is to be especially connected to any contemporary (to Tolkien) events, but rather to battle-cries throughout history in general, as uttered by defenders to defy the offenders - as in this case Gandalf is acting defender, denying the passage to Balrog ("This is Spartaaa!" of the 300 movie might have altered perceptions somewhat, but much like Leonides in Thermopylae, kind of)

One of the reasons some ill-disposed critics tended to label LoTR as full of cliches, haven't they now? Replace "cliche" with "archetype", that will take us back to some primordial man at the mouth of the cave, brandishing his club and growling something of the kind to the face of the cave bear intent on spending the night in the same cave...

And ah, I do find the exchange brilliant, and so I think Tolkien might have liked it, even if he wrote it himself

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

And ah, I do find the exchange brilliant, and so I think Tolkien might have liked it, even if he wrote it himself

He must have liked it, because otherwise he wouldn't have written it.