Sauron Diminished?

[narfforc]

In the new edition of The Silmarillion there is a letter from J.R.R.Tolkien to Milton Waldman, dated 1951. In the letter Tolkien states that Sauron, when making the One Ring, let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the ring. He goes on to say that while he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. In LotR (The Shadow of the Past) Gandalf tells Frodo: This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to a great weakening of his power. Later he says: The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring. Now my reading of this is: Sauron from the beginning is a great power, when he makes the One Ring that power is enhanced, upon losing it he can only grow back to his original greatness non enhanced, or the level he is without the power he put into the Ring, he needs the One Ring to get back to his greater power, therefore surely Third Age Sauron is of lesser power than Second Age Sauron and is fast approaching equality with First Age Sauron, maybe. So Third Age Sauron must be a diminished form of Second Age Sauron. If what Tolkien states is true, just because the One Ring is taken from Sauron, it should not mean he is diminished , only because his spirit flees the body and has no form, as he has done before, is he lessened and only if the One Ring is destroyed is he diminished forever. To me there seems to be a problem with the two statements.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by narfforc

In the new edition of The Silmarillion there is a letter from J.R.R.Tolkien to Milton Waldman, dated 1951. In the letter Tolkien states that Sauron, when making the One Ring, let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the ring. He goes on to say that while he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. In LotR (The Shadow of the Past) Gandalf tells Frodo: This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to a great weakening of his power. Later he says: The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.

Without having the letter concerned in front of me, so this is out of context, my take is this:

Sauron has always had immense inherent power, and in the Third Age he still has immense inherent power. You could not write a character such as he is without making him as powerful and terrible as possible. But the One Ring did increase his power. As it was made to enhance his strength, and made up of his strength, then it would naturally contain his strength, even if it was not in his possession. But if he was already powerful to the degree of x, and the ring took this power up to the power of y, then looking at these statements, losing the ring would surely only still reduce his power to x? That seems feasible to me.

I think my old favourite Osanwe-Kenta ( ) might explain something of the nature of this power. If the One Ring was made by Sauron to enhance his powers of osanwe, then it would indeed enhance his power on ME while he wore it. Couple this with the fact that it enabled him to control the Nine and to affect or at least reduce the capabilities of the Three, then his power was considerably enhanced. Losing the One Ring did not mean that this power was lost, on the contrary, it was still within the ring.

However, I can see why this looks wrong, as if the One Ring merely enhanced his power, why then should its destruction result in his total downfall? What I think is that in making the One Ring, a part of Sauron's power was kept within it, and therefore when it was lost it was away from him; maybe in making something to enhance his powers of osanwe and relying upon it, he in some way damaged his natural capabilities at this skill?

[Boromir88]

I believe this is the quote narfforc is talking about...

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished."

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm, maybe there is a much more simple explanation than the one I offered earlier.

even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished."

It's quite possible that Tolkien is here referring to the fact that nobody else could use the One Ring, that only Sauron could use the power within it to the full, and that if anyone else used it, then the "rapport" would mean that ultimately, they would be doing Sauron's work. Or does it mean that both powers existed in parallel?

[Mithalwen]

Could it be not diminished in the sense that the power was still in existence while the ring existed? He just cannot fully access it?

[Boromir88]

I'll finish off the paragraph since it seems to be of some importance now. Tolkien brings up the two ways that this "bond" or "relationship" between Sauron and the Ring could be broken...

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished." Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. (Sounds something that Saruman tried to accomplish). This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his siutation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to control the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annhiliated, then its power would be dissolved, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. Italics are things I added in.

I think what Tolkien is saying is what you basically said in your first post Lalwende. I don't take it as saying that "with and without the ring Sauron has enhanced powers." I take it more as "With that ring he has enhanced powers. Without possessing the Ring, the powers are bonded to Sauron."

For example, Frodo has the ring, he doesn't get the enhanced powers the ring gave to Sauron, those powers are bonded to Sauron. However, to break that bond (and become the new "master of the Ring") you could try to pull a Saruman; learn about the Ring, study Sauron, and try to challenge him, and overthrow him. Or you could "unmake" the ring, but that would not give you the "enhanced powers" that would just break the bond between the ring, and Sauron.

Edit: Basically saying the Ring's powers are loyal to Sauron. Just by possessing the Ring, the Ring will not give you the powers it gives Sauron. To get those powers you have to challenge Sauron one-on-one, and overthrow him, taking his place.

[obloquy]

Sauron needed The Ring to pull the rug out from under those few with the power to defy him.

Also, quite apart from the fact that The Ring enhanced his power, he could never be secure in his domination if it was still in someone else's possession. There would always be the potential for him to be overthrown.

[Boromir88]

Yes, obloquy, there were two weaknesses, which are listed above, in where Sauron could be beaten (and beaten for good only disappearing into a shadow, inaffective). One of which was destroying the ring, but this thought never crossed his mind, and figured he didn't have to worry about it...

But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made -- and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of ANY (emphasis mine) will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.

So, that left one way (In Sauron's mind) that he could be beaten, someone would physically use the ring to overthrow him, which he tried to make sure didn't happen.

[Lhunardawen]

I am once again reminded of Middle Earth being Morgoth's Ring. If the One Ring is anywhere in Middle Earth, but apart from Sauron, then Its powers are still "property of Sauron." Probably far-flung, but does it make sense that since Sauron was Morgoth's servant, the Ring that is Middle Earth was passed on to him when Morgoth was cast into the Void? Thus, no matter where the One Ring is, It is still his, and he remains the only one who can wield It...as long as It is within the Ring of Middle Earth. This is probably why giving up the One Ring to the Sea was considered in getting rid of It, because the Sea is not anymore under Morgoth's, and in effect Sauron's, dominion.

As for getting the One Ring back, it is not really necessary for Sauron to do that because of the previous explanations (which are very good, if I may say so). But since he knows fear just as his master Morgoth did, he has to get It back thinking that someone might be able to "pull" the Ring off him.

[obloquy]

I don't think Sauron inherited "Morgoth's Ring."

But since he knows fear just as his master Morgoth did, he has to get It back thinking that someone might be able to "pull" the Ring off him.

Also because evil is often possessive and greedy.

Boromir88: I don't understand how your post is a reply to mine.

[Boromir88]

There would always be the potential for him to be overthrown.

obloquy, I was responding to the fact of the two ways mentioned of defeating Sauron, that being "overthrown" was the one he focused on. He did not think it would be possible that the ring would be destroyed, so he didn't pay any attention to that possibility.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

But since he knows fear just as his master Morgoth did, he has to get It back thinking that someone might be able to "pull" the Ring off him.

Agreed. Sauron's biggest fear is that he will be usurped via another's possession of the Ring.

And regarding Sauron's power: assume that his innate power is x. When he created the Ring, he put some of x into it. The total is still x, yet some of x is within the Ring and the remainder is within his being. The Ring enhanced his abilities - allowing him to control others, which is why he created the Ring - but this did not increase the value of x.

Though separated physically from the Ring, Sauron still maintained the power of x. I think that when it states that his power was waxing, it meant that he was accumulating armies, slaves, hatching plots, casting spells (or the Sauron-equivalent), etc. He still had the power of x, but after his defeat and separation from the Ring, he had to rest and recharge his batteries.

When the Ring was destroyed, it wasn't that Sauron was diminished as in 'x minus Ring.' His innate power, whether in one being or distributed amongst himself, the Ring, controlling the wills of others, etc, still had to add up to x (100%). He could not exist at less than 100%, or at least exist in Arda.

Morgoth, who mirrors Sauron, of course, distributed his X amongst many things, beings, projects, etc so that not only was he tied to the world, but also the power within his actual being was reduced (again, the total was still X).

Hopefully that makes some sense.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Originally Posted by alatar

Morgoth, who mirrors Sauron, of course, distributed his X amongst many things, beings, projects, etc so that not only was he tied to the world, but also the power within his actual being was reduced (again, the total was still X).

Morgoth did not just distribute his power amoung many things... He practically 'aided' in the making of Arda.

Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeaveoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; ... and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it.

His control over his evil elements was 'cut off' when he was shot off into space, but Morgoth himself is still out there, albeit unable to influence anything on Arda. If Sauron equals to Morgoth, then the only way you can destroy Morgoth is to destroy the entire Middle-Earth...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

His control over his evil elements was 'cut off' when he was shot off into space, but Morgoth himself is still out there, albeit unable to influence anything on Arda. If Sauron equals to Morgoth, then the only way you can destroy Morgoth is to destroy the entire Middle-Earth...

As far as I can tell, no one is disputing that Morgoth was NOT, indeed, destroyed utterly and completely as Sauron was. Rather, he was taken, and imprisoned. The Dagor Dagorath, although never really defined by Tolkien, was always a part of the canon, the belief that in the end, Morgoth would return and all the world would join the battle of good and evil. Personally, I think that we would find in those last years that Morgoth, reunited with his "ring", would use it to devastating effect, forcing the very earth to fight the forces of good, so that while he will ultimately be destroyed, and good triumph, Arda will effectively be ended, and Arda Remade will begin....