of the comming of men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

08-11-2000, 01:16 PM

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Whats your thoughs on the comming of men? Why did Iluvatar do it? What was Tolkien purpose?
I think that the men were created so the the fate of arda was to fade out of the hands of the valar, sort of a keeper of the land. His purpose was servered the tale told and rather than an end, men were created who can make their own destiny and the valar fade out so to begin another Theme in the void or watch and see what the last children do? I think Tolkien wove men into the story with there own seperate destiny to sort of make the whole endevour of middle earth a mythical way of explaining humans and our behaviors?

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**lindil** · 08-12-2000, 06:37 AM

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Re: of the comming of men

greetings and welcome to the downs Eljimbo!
If I recall aright the 'purpose' to which the original [book of lost tales] mythology was put was to serve as a source for the longings of beauty , nature, and I would say [though JRRT did't state this explicitly -early on at least] especially a longing for a higher state of being.
lost tales was centered on Elves and Men only slowly crept into the tales . The hearer of the tales[Eriol-Aelfwine] was a mariner whomanaged to sale to the Lonely isle and here the stories mostly from the Elves -it served to explain the vague longings among men.
As the stories grew they [to my mind ] seemed to move closer and closer to illuminating the central tenets of his traditional Christian faith [see most especially Finrod and Andreth [in Morgoth's Ring] wher e Finrod postulates the need for Iluvatar to become incarnate in his own creation to save it from the Fall - he also recognizes that Men share a destiny w/ Iluvatar Himself outside the circles of the world which is in all liklihood closed to Elves.If I understood you aright much of what you articulated seemed to be among JRRT's reasons for men -alsoI would go so far to say that unless Men entered in [or the whole thing was allegorical ] there would be no 'purpose' for the whole thing. . The Myth's became more 'realistic' as he got older till he found himself pondering the need to do away with much of its fictional cosmology.
If the professor had had the life span of a dunedan I would not have been suprised to see him alter geography to match Europe more closely . and so on till he found himself caught up in the Old Testement!
well there you have it [from me at least].
I am sure others here at the Downs can illuminate this far more.
lindil

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08-12-2000, 09:31 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: of the comming of men

thanks you for the nice welcome everyone, may your beards grow very long!<img src=smile.gif ALT="

"> I just started the Book of lost tales yesterday so I cannot yet comment on that sorry<img src=frown.gif ALT="

"> anyways I have a feeling you maybe right.

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Snowdog · 07-27-2003, 06:19 PM

Man, there is some good commentary in the depths of the Downs!

It was always my nderstanding from the Silmarillion (1st Ed.) that the plan for men were created during the time of the music of the Ainur. Not being versed in the HoME series, this may be all wrong.

08-11-2000, 01:16 PM	#1
eljimbo Guest Posts: n/a	of the comming of men <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Whats your thoughs on the comming of men? Why did Iluvatar do it? What was Tolkien purpose? I think that the men were created so the the fate of arda was to fade out of the hands of the valar, sort of a keeper of the land. His purpose was servered the tale told and rather than an end, men were created who can make their own destiny and the valar fade out so to begin another Theme in the void or watch and see what the last children do? I think Tolkien wove men into the story with there own seperate destiny to sort of make the whole endevour of middle earth a mythical way of explaining humans and our behaviors? </p>

08-12-2000, 06:37 AM	#2
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: of the comming of men greetings and welcome to the downs Eljimbo! If I recall aright the 'purpose' to which the original [book of lost tales] mythology was put was to serve as a source for the longings of beauty , nature, and I would say [though JRRT did't state this explicitly -early on at least] especially a longing for a higher state of being. lost tales was centered on Elves and Men only slowly crept into the tales . The hearer of the tales[Eriol-Aelfwine] was a mariner whomanaged to sale to the Lonely isle and here the stories mostly from the Elves -it served to explain the vague longings among men. As the stories grew they [to my mind ] seemed to move closer and closer to illuminating the central tenets of his traditional Christian faith [see most especially Finrod and Andreth [in Morgoth's Ring] wher e Finrod postulates the need for Iluvatar to become incarnate in his own creation to save it from the Fall - he also recognizes that Men share a destiny w/ Iluvatar Himself outside the circles of the world which is in all liklihood closed to Elves.If I understood you aright much of what you articulated seemed to be among JRRT's reasons for men -alsoI would go so far to say that unless Men entered in [or the whole thing was allegorical ] there would be no 'purpose' for the whole thing. . The Myth's became more 'realistic' as he got older till he found himself pondering the need to do away with much of its fictional cosmology. If the professor had had the life span of a dunedan I would not have been suprised to see him alter geography to match Europe more closely . and so on till he found himself caught up in the Old Testement! well there you have it [from me at least]. I am sure others here at the Downs can illuminate this far more. lindil </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

08-12-2000, 09:31 PM	#3
eljimbo Guest Posts: n/a	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: of the comming of men thanks you for the nice welcome everyone, may your beards grow very long!<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> I just started the Book of lost tales yesterday so I cannot yet comment on that sorry<img src=frown.gif ALT=""> anyways I have a feeling you maybe right. </p>

07-27-2003, 06:19 PM	#4
Snowdog Emperor of the South Pole Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim Posts: 606	Man, there is some good commentary in the depths of the Downs! It was always my nderstanding from the Silmarillion (1st Ed.) that the plan for men were created during the time of the music of the Ainur. Not being versed in the HoME series, this may be all wrong.