Saruman/Grima Out??? - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Essex · 11-16-2003, 10:04 AM

Finwe, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why is it so unfortunate? PJ knows that he's making a movie and thus, has a bit of creative license. Movies cannot follow books that they are based on line by line, event by event. It just will not work. Some changes do have to be made. If you want something that follows the books exactly, I suggest buying the audio version of LotR. You can't be disappointed with that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm beginning to understand Eurtyus's viewpoint on us Tolkien egg heads who can't admit Tolkien does no wrong, becasue now I understand that some people think JACKSON can do no wrong. To cast aside a villain as important as Saruman? What if he did the same to the Witch King? Would you mind leaving HIS demise out if Jackson did this? How far can he go? He bowed to pressure on Arwen at helm's deep, you never know, he may bow at the last hour on Saruman. (not!!!!!) I will no doubt go to see rotk at the cinema. I hope to God I enjoy it. I've been waiting all year for it, but now there is a seed of doubt in my mind......PS I have the cd audio thank you. At least they have the scouring in THAT version. You see, people come up with the excuse that Jackson is doing a brilliant job on the movies, which he no doubt is. This does not give him licence to do what he pleases carte blanche though. Oh, hang on, it does because there's nothing we can really do about it but bleat on in these forums (which helps....)

HCIsland · 11-16-2003, 12:45 PM

You know, there is a difference between excuses and reasons. I can except PJ's reasons for cutting Saruman - like I really have a choice anyway.Undoubtably I'm disappointed that I won't be seeing this scene for another year. As far as whether PJ made a mistake or not, we can't make that judgement until the film is released. Personally, I suspect this will be largely a non-issue with the majority of movie goers. As too whether the film is stronger or weaker with the scene gone, I will have to wait to see the film myself before I can make that judgement. Actually, there's a good chance I won't be able to make the judgement until the Extended Edition when I will finally get to see this scene in context with the rest of the film. A luxury that PJ has that the rest of us certainly do not.Editted to add: I for one won't let on missing scene towards the front of the film ruin my appreciation of the rest of the movie.H.C.[ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

The Only Real Estel · 11-17-2003, 02:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To paraphrase the FOTR movie: "NOOOOOOOO! P.J.!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why FotR? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Besides, if Chris Lee, who is the actor who would be most affected by the cut, isn't going all ballistic on PJ, why should we? I think he has a greater right to overreact than we do. He's being calm and professional about it, and relegating the job of the director/editor to the director/editor, PJ. So should we.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually Christopher Lee would probably like nothing more than to vent some frustration. Do you think that he hasn't because he's fine with the move? He hasn't 'over-reacted' or 'gone balistic on PJ' because he can't. He's an actor with more screen-credits than anyone in history, he really doesn't have the option to go public. Would you want to cast Lee for a future spot if you knew that he was going to go public with his frustration on a bad cut? He has to think about his own future as an actor, but he's gone as close to venting as he can by saying that he's not going to the premiere of a movie (RotK) that he isn't in. Serioulsy, when it comes to actors & their feelings, you have to read between the lines...because they can't fill them in for you.[ 10:43 PM December 03, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

Rose Cotton · 11-17-2003, 02:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I know we would love nothing better than to see nothing but a parade of scenes representing what was presented in the text, like a glorified illustrated version of the book, but Jackson is trying to make a movie here. A movie that stands up on it's own for both fans and non-fans of the book and personally, I think he's done a damn good job of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I totally agree with HCIsland on this matter. Although I'm dissapointed at losing the Voice of Sauruman scene I accept the decition and can't wait to see it on the DVD.As for the question of how they will do the Palatir and the joining of the hobbits with the rest of the company here is my idea on what they might do.Even back in january when I was writing my own little script of ROTK I felt that the best place to start was to have Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Gandalf and all the Rohirum ariving at Isengard. I think that they will still do this.After opening up with sweeping camera shots of a flooded Orthanc we could then have a shot of all the riders entering the area. Treebeard would show up and they would have a conversation which would remind us what everyone's name is and who they are. Treebeard would also inform everyone that Sauruman is finished and that Merry and Pippin have should be wandering around somewhere.Cut to Merry and Pippin walking about Orthanc. As they hear their friends approaching they start to run to them. Just then Pippin notices somthing buried in the rubble. He walks over to it and picks it up. It's the Palantir. As Pippin holds it, it starts to glow and swirl. He starts to become entranced. Suddenly the Palantir is taken from him by Gandalf. It could be worse, Aragorn could be going head to head with a carnate form of Sauron.

doug*platypus · 12-14-2003, 08:28 PM

Well, perhaps cutting this scene from ROTK will work well for that movie. There's been far too much emphasis to date on Saruman as the villain, to the detriment of Sauron's character as the real enemy. Without the Scouring of the Shire, there seems to be little point to Saruman being in the third film, and he would consume time required for all the many other plots.But one thing I have to say about PJs lack of planning is this:WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT THAT SCENE IN THE TWO TOWERS?!?!@?!#@!?!He wouldn't be short of time if he didn't waste precious seconds on rubbish like Haldir and the elves at Helm's Deep, or Aragorn's little side trip. Sigh. That is the closest to angry at PJ I have become during this whole book-to-film emotional rollercoaster.

Frodo2968thewhite · 12-14-2003, 09:20 PM

Although PJ does have a point, I cannot believe he cut Saruman! Christopher Lee is my favorite actor ever! Not to mention, for the people that have not read the books (like a few of my friends), are left hanging until next November!!!!

Evisse the Blue · 12-15-2003, 06:10 AM

I don't buy the 'consuming time theory'. There's no time for a 5-minute or so Saruman scene, but there is time for ~~~:: POSSIBLE SPOILER:: ~~~~ a Boromir scene?? Or at least that's what I gather from seeing Sean Bean listed in the Cast for ROTK, according to IMDB. Not that I have anything against seeing Sean Bean. Actually, if I hadn't read the books, I'd rather see him than Chris Lee (maybe that was PJ's idea too). But as it is, I was really looking forward to the Gandalf-Saruman confruntation, like so many of you.

The Only Real Estel · 12-15-2003, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There's no time for a 5-minute or so Saruman scene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, it'd take more than that to be done right (it'd be almost worse to have PJ not give it enough time to turn out properly than it would be for him to do it right in the EE), but your point is obvious.

***Gilthalion*** · 12-15-2003, 09:05 PM

First of all, I do agree that the deletion even from a theatrical version is a mistake. Even so, I'm sure ROTK will be worth seeing and that I'll see it multiple times before buying the XROTK.Someone did point out, but I thought I'd reiterate that fan reaction DID change the entire conception of Arwen's part in TTT.My question for the better informed: Did this tempest even begin in time for the deletion to be reinserted?Perhaps it is no coincidence that one of the earliest of these controversies was Saruman's death on the giant spiked cog wheel. Many, many such controversies later, I say, three cheers for PJ & Co. if this last controversy is a hoax! Such ungrateful and continuous whiners and complainers and spoilers deserve it! (After all, the entire thing might have been handled by Disney! Then where would we be?)

Noldorin King · 12-15-2003, 09:17 PM

ok, kids. let's just hope that ROTK wouldn't cut off our favorite parts (like in TT, shelob's lair, anyone?')i hope very much that it's worth watching and not whining. As for Saruman, well, the actor himself wasn't so happy about it...PJ's goin' on about Tolkien's novels being under nourished in terms of their love story, that explains why there's too much Evenstar and Elessar...Does anyone know if Prince Imrahil's joining the battle in Pelennor? he wasn't in TT either..

steve · 12-15-2003, 09:33 PM

Saruman and Grima are going to be taken out of the threatrical version of the movie, but they will be in the extended edition as well as the houses of healing

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-16-2003, 04:06 AM

Saruman and Wormtongue in the Houses of Healing!!??!! Now that's just one change too many ...

mark12_30 · 12-16-2003, 10:42 AM

Speaking of Saruman, I'm about to (try to) submit an essay of sorts to GreenBooks at TheOneRing.net. The rough draft is <A HREF="http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/SarumanFrodo.rtf" TARGET=_blank>Here.</A> If anyone would like to peruse it and give me feedback before I send it in, I would be very deeply grateful... Regards, --mark12_30

doug*platypus · 12-16-2003, 03:42 PM

Very interesting idea, Helen. You're absolutely right about Saruman's death in the book being critical for the character of Frodo. However, I can't imagine an ending for Saruman without the scene at Isengard. The last couple of times I have read the book, that scene really stood out as monumental. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing it in the EE, but I really wish that it had been at the end of the last movie to bring closure to that chapter of the story. Needless to say, it will be very weird seeing Flotsam and Jetsam without The Voice of Saruman!

11-16-2003, 10:04 AM	#81
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	Finwe,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why is it so unfortunate? PJ knows that he's making a movie and thus, has a bit of creative license. Movies cannot follow books that they are based on line by line, event by event. It just will not work. Some changes do have to be made. If you want something that follows the books exactly, I suggest buying the audio version of LotR. You can't be disappointed with that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm beginning to understand Eurtyus's viewpoint on us Tolkien egg heads who can't admit Tolkien does no wrong, becasue now I understand that some people think JACKSON can do no wrong. To cast aside a villain as important as Saruman? What if he did the same to the Witch King? Would you mind leaving HIS demise out if Jackson did this? How far can he go? He bowed to pressure on Arwen at helm's deep, you never know, he may bow at the last hour on Saruman. (not!!!!!) I will no doubt go to see rotk at the cinema. I hope to God I enjoy it. I've been waiting all year for it, but now there is a seed of doubt in my mind......<P>PS I have the cd audio thank you. At least they have the scouring in THAT version. <P>You see, people come up with the excuse that Jackson is doing a brilliant job on the movies, which he no doubt is. This does not give him licence to do what he pleases carte blanche though. Oh, hang on, it does because there's nothing we can really do about it but bleat on in these forums (which helps....)

11-16-2003, 12:45 PM	#82
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	You know, there is a difference between excuses and reasons. I can except PJ's reasons for cutting Saruman - like I really have a choice anyway.<P>Undoubtably I'm disappointed that I won't be seeing this scene for another year. As far as whether PJ made a mistake or not, we can't make that judgement until the film is released. Personally, I suspect this will be largely a non-issue with the majority of movie goers. As too whether the film is stronger or weaker with the scene gone, I will have to wait to see the film myself before I can make that judgement. <P>Actually, there's a good chance I won't be able to make the judgement until the Extended Edition when I will finally get to see this scene in context with the rest of the film. A luxury that PJ has that the rest of us certainly do not.<P>Editted to add: I for one won't let on missing scene towards the front of the film ruin my appreciation of the rest of the movie.<P>H.C.<p>[ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ] __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

11-17-2003, 02:26 PM	#83
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To paraphrase the FOTR movie: "NOOOOOOOO! P.J.!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why FotR?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Besides, if Chris Lee, who is the actor who would be most affected by the cut, isn't going all ballistic on PJ, why should we? I think he has a greater right to overreact than we do. He's being calm and professional about it, and relegating the job of the director/editor to the director/editor, PJ. So should we.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Actually Christopher Lee would probably like nothing more than to vent some frustration. Do you think that he hasn't because he's fine with the move? He hasn't 'over-reacted' or 'gone balistic on PJ' because he can't. He's an actor with more screen-credits than anyone in history, he really doesn't have the option to go public. Would you want to cast Lee for a future spot if you knew that he was going to go public with his frustration on a bad cut? He has to think about his own future as an actor, but he's gone as close to venting as he can by saying that he's not going to the premiere of a movie (RotK) that he isn't in. Serioulsy, when it comes to actors & their feelings, you have to read between the lines...because they can't fill them in for you.<p>[ 10:43 PM December 03, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

11-17-2003, 02:56 PM	#84
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I know we would love nothing better than to see nothing but a parade of scenes representing what was presented in the text, like a glorified illustrated version of the book, but Jackson is trying to make a movie here. A movie that stands up on it's own for both fans and non-fans of the book and personally, I think he's done a damn good job of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I totally agree with HCIsland on this matter. Although I'm dissapointed at losing the Voice of Sauruman scene I accept the decition and can't wait to see it on the DVD.<P>As for the question of how they will do the Palatir and the joining of the hobbits with the rest of the company here is my idea on what they might do.<P>Even back in january when I was writing my own little script of ROTK I felt that the best place to start was to have Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Gandalf and all the Rohirum ariving at Isengard. I think that they will still do this.<P>After opening up with sweeping camera shots of a flooded Orthanc we could then have a shot of all the riders entering the area. Treebeard would show up and they would have a conversation which would remind us what everyone's name is and who they are. Treebeard would also inform everyone that Sauruman is finished and that Merry and Pippin have should be wandering around somewhere.<P>Cut to Merry and Pippin walking about Orthanc. As they hear their friends approaching they start to run to them. Just then Pippin notices somthing buried in the rubble. He walks over to it and picks it up. It's the Palantir. As Pippin holds it, it starts to glow and swirl. He starts to become entranced. Suddenly the Palantir is taken from him by Gandalf. <P>It could be worse, Aragorn could be going head to head with a carnate form of Sauron.<BR> __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

12-14-2003, 08:28 PM	#85
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Well, perhaps cutting this scene from ROTK will work well for that movie. There's been <B>far</B> too much emphasis to date on Saruman as the villain, to the detriment of Sauron's character as the <B>real</B> enemy. Without the Scouring of the Shire, there seems to be little point to Saruman being in the third film, and he would consume time required for all the many other plots.<P><B>But</B> one thing I have to say about PJs lack of planning is this:<P><B>WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT THAT SCENE IN THE TWO TOWERS?!?!@?!#@!?!</B><P>He wouldn't be short of time if he didn't waste precious seconds on rubbish like Haldir and the elves at Helm's Deep, or Aragorn's little side trip. Sigh. That is the closest to <B>angry</B> at PJ I have become during this whole book-to-film emotional rollercoaster. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-14-2003, 09:20 PM	#86
Frodo2968thewhite Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Shire Posts: 95	Although PJ does have a point, I cannot believe he cut Saruman! Christopher Lee is my favorite actor ever! Not to mention, for the people that have not read the books (like a few of my friends), are left hanging until next November!!!! __________________ INAGURAL GOLDEN RING MARATHON, OCTOBER 20, 2005!!! FRODO LIVES!!!!

12-15-2003, 06:10 AM	#87
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,740	I don't buy the 'consuming time theory'. There's no time for a 5-minute or so Saruman scene, but there is time for<BR> ~~~:: POSSIBLE SPOILER:: ~~~~<P> a Boromir scene?? Or at least that's what I gather from seeing Sean Bean listed in the Cast for ROTK, according to IMDB. Not that I have anything against seeing Sean Bean. Actually, if I hadn't read the books, I'd rather see him than Chris Lee (maybe that was PJ's idea too). But as it is, I was really looking forward to the Gandalf-Saruman confruntation, like so many of you. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

12-15-2003, 04:52 PM	#88
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There's no time for a 5-minute or so Saruman scene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it'd take more than that to be done right (it'd be almost worse to have PJ not give it enough time to turn out properly than it would be for him to do it right in the EE), but your point is obvious.

12-15-2003, 09:05 PM	#89
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	First of all, I do agree that the deletion even from a theatrical version is a mistake. Even so, I'm sure ROTK will be worth seeing and that I'll see it multiple times before buying the XROTK.<P>Someone did point out, but I thought I'd reiterate that fan reaction DID change the entire conception of Arwen's part in TTT.<P>My question for the better informed: Did this tempest even begin in time for the deletion to be reinserted?<P>Perhaps it is no coincidence that one of the earliest of these controversies was Saruman's death on the giant spiked cog wheel. Many, many such controversies later, I say, three cheers for PJ & Co. if this last controversy is a hoax! Such ungrateful and continuous whiners and complainers and spoilers deserve it! (After all, the entire thing might have been handled by Disney! Then where would we be?) __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

12-15-2003, 09:17 PM	#90
Noldorin King Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 30	ok, kids. let's just hope that ROTK wouldn't cut off our favorite parts (like in TT, shelob's lair, anyone?')i hope very much that it's worth watching and not whining. As for Saruman, well, the actor himself wasn't so happy about it...PJ's goin' on about Tolkien's novels being under nourished in terms of their love story, that explains why there's too much Evenstar and Elessar...Does anyone know if Prince Imrahil's joining the battle in Pelennor? he wasn't in TT either..

12-15-2003, 09:33 PM	#91
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Saruman and Grima are going to be taken out of the threatrical version of the movie, but they will be in the extended edition as well as the houses of healing __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

12-16-2003, 04:06 AM	#92
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	Saruman and Wormtongue in the Houses of Healing!!??!! Now that's just one change too many ...<P> __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

12-16-2003, 10:42 AM	#93
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Speaking of Saruman, I'm about to (try to) submit an essay of sorts to GreenBooks at TheOneRing.net. The rough draft is <A HREF="http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/SarumanFrodo.rtf" TARGET=_blank>Here.</A> If anyone would like to peruse it and give me feedback before I send it in, I would be very deeply grateful... <P>Regards, --mark12_30 __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

12-16-2003, 03:42 PM	#94
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Very interesting idea, Helen. You're absolutely right about Saruman's death in the book being critical for the character of Frodo. However, I can't imagine an ending for Saruman without the scene at Isengard. The last couple of times I have read the book, that scene really stood out as monumental. <P>I'm <I>kind of</I> looking forward to seeing it in the EE, but I really wish that it had been at the end of the last movie to bring closure to that chapter of the story. Needless to say, it will be <B>very</B> weird seeing Flotsam and Jetsam without The Voice of Saruman! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.