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Old 09-01-2017, 02:17 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril Of the Coming of Men Into the West

This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Naugrim and the Edain

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 11; page 201-243. Wherever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
NE-CD-xx for the section Concerning Dwarves.
NE-CM-xx for the section Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar
NE-KE-xx for the section Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information

OF THE NAUGRIM AND THE EDAIN
Quote:
Concerning the Dwarves

1. Now in time the building of Nargothrond was completed, and Gondolin had been raised in secret; but in the days of the Siege of Angband the {Gnomes}[Noldor] had yet small need of hiding-places, and they ranged far and wide between the Western Sea and the Blue Mountains. NE-CD-01 < GA 150 The people of Caranthir Fanor’s son dwelt beyond the upper waters of {Gelion}[Duin Daer], about Lake Helevorn under the shadow of the Blue Mountains. At this time> it is said that they climbed {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] and looked eastward in wonder, for the lands of Middle-earth seemed wild and wide; but none ever passed over the mountains while Angband lasted. In those days the folk of {Cranthir}[Caranthir] first came upon the Dwarves, whom {they [>} the Dark-elves{]} named the Naugrim; for the chief dwellings of that race were then in the mountains east of {Thargelion}[Radhrost], the land of {Cranthir}[Caranthir], and were digged deep in the eastern slopes of {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon]. Thence they journeyed often into Beleriand, and were admitted even into Doriath. There was at that time no enmity between Elves and Dwarves, but nonetheless no great love.
NE-CD-02{...}
4. In the darkness of Arda ....... save in further trading.
NE-CD-03{…}
6. The father-tongue of the Dwarves ...... the speeches of the Elves.
7. In their own tongue the Dwarves ...... while the power of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] lasted.
9. It is reckoned that the first meeting of the Noldor and the Naugrim befell in the land of {Cranthir}[Caranthir] Fanor’s son about that time when Fingolfin destroyed the Orcs at Drengist NE-CD-04{, one hundred and fifty-five years after the crossing of the Ice, and one hundred and five before the first coming of Glomund the dragon. After his defeat there was long peace, and it lasted for well-nigh two hundred years of the sun.}NE-CD-05 <GA 150 Now, though either people loved skill and was eager to learn, there was little love between the Noldor and the Dwarves. For the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, whereas Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his folk followed their lord. Nonetheless, since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit. For the Naugrim learned many secrets of craft in those days, so that the smiths of Nogrod and Belegost became renowned among their kin; but the Noldor got great wealth of iron, and their armories became filled with store of weapons and harness of war. Moreover thereafter, until the power of {Maidros}[Maedhros] was overthrown, all the traffic of the dwarf-mines passed through the hands of Caranthir, and thus he won great riches.>
Quote:
Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar

1. Now it came to pass, ....
2. In a valley among ....
3. Then Felagund, standing ....
4. Now these were a part ...
5. Long Felagund watched them...
6. Now men awoke ...
7. Thus it was that Men ...
8. Now the Eldar were ....
9. 'A darkness lies behind us....
10. But Felagund learned from Bor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'
11 Now the Nandor...
12 Then by the advice .... south of Nan ELmoth.
Quote:
Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

13. Soon after the departure .... There was great friendship between the peoples NE-KE-01{, though they were sundered in speech, until they both learned the Sindarin tongue.}[.]
14. Felagund himself ...
15. The Edain did not ...
16. Most of these took ... about the Hill of Himring.
NE-KE-02 <GA 130 It is said that in all these matters none save {Inglor}[Finrod] took counsel with King Thingol, and he was ill pleased, both for that reason, and because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, in Hithlum and Dorthonion, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did. And he said: 'Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bor who serve Finrod the beloved.'
131 Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.'>
17. Many, however, remained ...
18. The leaders of ...
19. Then a council and assembly ...
20. To this Bereg answered....
21. Then those that ....
22. But some still answered
23. During this time the Haladin remained in Radhrost ....
24. Now the Haladin did not live under ...
25. Now Haldad had twin children...
26. Then Caranthir looked ...
27. But Haleth was proud...
28. But they remained a people apart....
29. Now Brethil was claimed ...
30. In this way it came ....
31. Now Hador {Glorindol}[Lorindol], ...
32. The sons of Hador ...
33. All these were caught ...
34. The years of the .... that had beheld the Light.
NE-CD-01: This insert from the Grey Annals contains details about the dwelling of Caranthir which are not given elsewhere.
NE-CD-02: These paragraphs were used in Chapter 3.
NE-CD-03: These were also used in Ch. 3
NE-CD-04: I hesitate to use dates, bc at this point I do not know which date is correct. If these dates are fine, they may be retained.
NE-CD-05: This insert from the Annals contains much information about the relations of the Dwarves and the Noldor that we get nowhere else.
NE-CM-01: Christopher Tolkien says that according to a "late note" this information was wrong, and he removed it in the Sil77, as I think should we.
NE-KE-01: Same as the previous one.

This Chapter is very straightforward, and I did not include additions from the Of Dwarves and Men essay in HoME 12 because I believe that is planned to be included in full in VOLUME II. An addition made by Christopher Tolkien in this chapter concerns Melkor's corruption of Men, and is sourced from the Grey Annals, but I have inserted it into the chapter Of Men, as it seemed to fit the subject matter there better.

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Old 09-03-2017, 06:08 AM   #2
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A few remarks in passing. I have not analysed the changes you made in detail. That must wait a bit.
1. I think by our editing the sub chapter Concerning the Dwarves is very thin and out of sequence in this position. I suppose we should shift it. probably to the end of cahpter 18 Of Beleriand and it's Realms, but I did not check where the events mention before the first meeting of Noldor and Dwarves are recorded. Nontheless the work should not be lost, Since we should use these sub-chapter somewhere.

2. What I planned to use in the second age stuff of Of Dwarves and Men from HoME 12 is only the Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men (without the first paragraph, that I planed to use in chapter 3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles, but then I have forgotten about that while editing). Other parts of the essay might be used here and in the chapter 15 Of Men. I remember that there were parts describing the journey of the Edain, which I suppose should be included here. As well there are the chapters about the Drg that I think should be included here.

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Old 09-04-2017, 04:21 PM   #3
ArcusCalion
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1. If you think this arrangement works better, then fine. However, as Tolkien out this in this chapter, I see no real need to move it out of sequence. But if you think it feels too jarring it cancertainly be appended to the previous chapter.

2. Personally, I hesitate to chop up a finished work that is useable as it is with only minor editing. Thus, I would include the Statute of Finwe and Miriel as a separate work instead of adding it into Of Finwe and Miriel. In this case I would also like to keep part 2 of Of Dwarves and Men complete as it stands already, as I see no reason not to include it in full later.v
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:10 PM   #4
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If we are to add in the Dwarves and Men material (which I would argue we should not) I have composed a draft of how it might be done.

The first paragraph of Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain must be greatly altered, due to the fact that I missed the change in order of the arrival of the tribes in Beleriand, and also the note in Ros about their sojurn by the sea of Rhun.

Quote:
13. Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came NE-KE-0.2 <Moved up Marach {led}[leading] his people over the Mountains; and they were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. NE-KE-0.5<DM They were a more numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats. They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards.> And Marach hearing that the people of Bor were dwelling in a green and fertile land, came down the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bor. There was great friendship between the peoples NE-KE-01{, though they were sundered in speech, until they both learned the Sindarin tongue.}[.]> NE-KE-01.2 <Ros Note 13: The Atani had never seen the Great Sea before they came at last to Beleriand; but according to their own legends and histories the Folk of {Hador}[Marach] had long dwelt during their westward migration by the shores of a sea too wide to see across; it had no tides, but was visited by great storms. It was not until they had developed a craft of boat-building that the people afterwards known as the Folk of Hador discovered that a part of their host from whom they had become separated had reached the same sea before them, and dwelt at the feet of the high hills to the south-west, whereas they {[the Folk of Hador]} lived in the north-east, in the woods that there came near to the shores. They were thus some two hundred miles apart, going by water; and they did not often meet and exchange tidings. Their tongues had already diverged, with the swiftness of the speeches of Men in the Unwritten Days, and continued to do so; though they remained friends of acknowledged kinship, bound by their hatred and fear of the Dark Lord (Morgoth), against whom they had rebelled. Nonetheless they did not know that the Lesser Folk had fled from the threat of the Servants of the Dark and gone on westward, while they had lain hidden in their woods, and so under their leader Bor reached Beleriand at last many years before they did.> The next year, however, [came] <Moved down the Haladin; NE-KE-0.3 <DM They were probably more numerous than the Folk of Bor, but no certain count of them was ever made; for they came secretly in small parties and hid in the woods of Ossiriand[;] {where the Elves showed them no friendship.}> but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir son of Fanor; and there for a time they had peace, though the people of Caranthir paid little heed to them.
Then the second to last paragraph must be changed as well.

Quote:
33. All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor; and they did great deeds which the Eldar remember still among the histories of the Kings of old. And in those days the strength of Men was added to the power of the Noldor, and hope was renewed; and the people of the three houses of Men throve and multiplied. NE-KE-03 <DM{Greatest was the House of Hador Golden-head, peer of Elven-lords. Many of his people were like him, golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in battle, generous to friend and to foe, swift in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Ilvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Bor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory; and they were moved sooner to pity than to mirth, for the sorrow of Middle-earth was in their hearts. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift. They were less eager for lore, and used few words; for they did not love great concourse of men, and many among them delighted in solitude, wandering free in the greenwoods while the wonder of the lands of the Eldar was new upon them. But in the realms of the West their time was brief and their days unhappy.} The Folk of {Hador}[Marach] were ever the greatest in numbers of the Atani, and in renown (save only Beren son of Barahir descendant of Bor). For the most part they were tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair, though all were fair-skinned. [Footnote: No doubt this was due to mingling with Men of other kind in the past; and it was noted that the dark hair ran in families that had more skill and interest in crafts and lore.]
Nonetheless they were akin to the Folk of Bor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common. The Elvish loremasters [Footnote: With a knowledge of the language of the Folk of Bor that was later lost, save for a few names of persons and places, and some words or phrases preserved in legends. One of the common words was atan.] were of opinion that both languages were descended from one that had diverged (owing to some division of the people who had spoken it) in the course of, maybe, a thousand years of the slower change in the First Age. Though the time might well have been less, and change quickened by a mingling of peoples; for the language of {Hador}[Marach] was apparently less changed and more uniform in style, whereas the language of Bor contained many elements that were alien in character. This contrast in speech was probably connected with the observable physical differences between the two peoples. There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Bor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. [Footnote: Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.]
In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of {Hador}[Marach], but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [Footnote: The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.] the Folk of Bor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow, slow to tears or to laughter; their fortitude needed no hope to sustain it. But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.
The Folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language; and though later united with them in alliance with the Eldar, they remained a people apart. Among themselves they adhered to their own language, and though of necessity they learned Sindarin for communication with the Eldar and the other Atani, many spoke it haltingly, and some of those who seldom went beyond the borders of their own woods did not use it at all. They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. Nonetheless they were esteemed as loyal allies and redoubtable warriors, though the companies that they sent to battle beyond their borders were small. For they were and remained to their end a small people, chiefly concerned to protect their own woodlands, and they excelled in forest warfare. Indeed, for long even those {Orks}[Orcs] specially trained for this dared not set foot near their borders. One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; [Footnote: Not due to their special situation in Beleriand, and maybe rather a cause of their small numbers than its result. They increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.] for their chieftainess Haleth had been a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women.>
34. The years of ...... had beheld the Light.
The Pukel and Drug sections I think must be separated, as they contain much reference to the Second and Third ages. However, besides the note from Ros, I do not think the Dwarves and Men material should be added, simply because the essay contains much about the Second and Third ages of Men that is said nowhere else, and to discard it and chop it up without real reason seems a shame to me.

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Old 09-13-2017, 02:40 PM   #5
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Back to my own comment 1: I retake it. As it stands now it is fine to have the meeting of the people of Caranthir with the dwarves recorded here.

NE-CD-01: Agreed.

{Thargelion}[Radhrost]: I think Radhrost is as well no longer valid. I would rather replace Thargelion by Talath Rhnen as in our general changes.

NE-CD-02 and NE-CD-03: Agreed.

NE-CD-04: These dates are okay. And I think we should keep them. We just have to change Glomund to Glaurung.

NE-CD-05: Agreed.

{Maidors}[Maedhros]: Up to now the discussion was between Maedros or Maedron and the decision was made to take the more conservative Maedros. So please remove the h.

NE-CM-01: Agreed.

NE-KE-01: Agreed.

NE-KE-00.2: Agreed and this change is necessary either way, taking material form Of Dwarves and Men or not.

NE-KE-00.5: The general discussion of material from Of Dwarves and Men we should keep in one place, and that is for me the thread about Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles. If we agree there to take these material up, I agree to this use.

NE-KE-01.2: Agreed.

NE-KE-00.3: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5.

NE-KE-03: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5. And I would include all the stuff about the Drg, making your last section look like this:
Quote:
33 All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor; and they did great deeds which the Eldar remember still among the histories of the Kings of old. And in those days the strength of Men was added to the power of the Noldor, and hope was renewed; and the people of the three houses of Men throve and multiplied. NE-KE-03 <DM{Greatest was the House of Hador Golden-head, But in the realms of the West their time was brief and their days unhappy.} The Folk of {Hador}[Marach] were ever the greatest though all were fair-skinned. [Footnote to the text: No doubt this was due to mingling with Men of other kind in the past; and it was noted that the dark hair ran in families that had more skill and interest in crafts and lore.]
Nonetheless they were akin to the Folk of Bor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common. The Elvish loremasters [Footnote to the text: With a knowledge of the language of the Folk of Bor that was later lost, save for a few names of persons and places, and some words or phrases preserved in legends. One of the common words was atan.] were of opinion that both languages were descended from one for the language of {Hador}[Marach] was apparently less changed they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of {Hador}[Marach], but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.
The Folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, This custom was evidently ancient; [Footnote to the text: Not due to their special situation in Beleriand, and maybe rather a cause of their small numbers than its result. They increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.] for their chieftainess Haleth had been a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women.> NE-KE-04< UT; The Dredain
The Dredain
The strangest of all the customs of the Folk of Haleth was the presence among them of people of a wholly different kind,[Footnote to the text: Though they spoke the same language (after their fashion). They retained however a number of words of their own.{ [Author's note.]}] the like of which neither the Eldar in Beleriand nor the other Atani had ever seen before. They were not many, a few hundreds maybe, living apart in families or small tribes, but in friendship, as members of the same community.[Footnote to the text: After the fashion in which in the Third Age the Men and Hobbits of Bree lived together; though there was no kinship between the Drg-folk and the Hobbits.{ [Author's note.]}] The Folk of Haleth called them by the name drug, ... untainted by scorn or malice.[Footnote to the text: To the unfriendly who, ... regarded the other as renegades.{ [Author's note.] In The Silmarillion the Orcs are said ... dark eyes that showed nothing.}] In peace they often laughed at work or play when other Men might sing. ... the only creatures for whom their hatred was implacable.
The Eldar called them Dredain, admitting them to the rank of Atani,[Footnote to the text: NE-KE-05{It is stated in isolated notes that their}Their own name for themselves was Drughu ... In Quenya Drughu became R, and Ratan, plural Ratani.{ For their other names in later times (Wild Men, Woses, Pkel-men) see pp. 400-1 and note 14.}] for they were much loved while they lasted. Alas! they were not long-lived, and were ever few in number, their losses were heavy in their feud with the Orcs, who turned their hatred and delighted to capture them and torture them. NE-KE-06{ When the victories of Morgoth destroyed ... some of whom came to the last refuges at the Mouth Sirion.[Footnote to the text: In the annals of Nmenor it is said that ... died out long before the Downfall."]}
NE-KE-07 <UT, Further Notes on the Dredain {Another note says that historians}Historians in Gondor believed that the first Men to cross the Anduin were indeed the Dredain. ... seeking a land where they could be hidden and have peace."> NE-KE-08 <UT, Further Notes on the Dredain An emigrant branch of the Dredain accompanied the Folk of Haleth ... who had relapsed into the service of the Dark.>
In their earlier days they had been of great service to those among whom they dwelt, and they were much sought after; though few would ever leave the land of the Folk of Haleth.[Footnote to the text: A few lived in the household of Hrin of the House of Hador, for he had dwelt among the Folk of Haleth in his youth and had kinship with their lord.{ [Author's note.] On the relationship of Hrin to the Folk of Haleth see The Silmarillion p. 158. It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving-man in Hrin's house in Dor-1min, into a Drg.}] They had a marvellous skill as trackers ... or useful as food.[Footnote to the text: They had a law against the use of all poisons for the hurt of any living creatures, even those who had done them injury save only Orcs, whose poisoned darts they countered with others more deadly.{ [Author's note.] Elfhelm told Meriadoc Brandybuck that the Wild Men used poisoned arrows ... not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there."}] NE-KE-09 <HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men, Note 51{ To the astonishment of Elves and other Men they ate funguses with pleasure, and supposed them to have been cursed and blighted by Morgoth.}>
The Dredain, as also the other Atani, ... although the Atani had a knowledge of metals and some smith-craft before they came to Beleriand,[Footnote to the text: Acquired according to their legends from the Dwarves.{ [Author's note.]}] for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly. But when in Beleriand by association with the Eldar ... Concerning this a tale was related among the Folk of Haleth:

On a time, one of the most skilled in stone-carving among the Drgs made an image of his father, ... I find your cloak too hot in the sun."

It is said that the Dredain would often sit thus in times of grief or loss, ... they would hold some of the menace of the living men.
Indeed, though they held the Dredain in love and trust,... One of these is recorded here.

The Faithful Stone
On a time there was a Drg named Aghan,... May it keep you from harm!"
Nothing untoward happened for two nights, ... and there remained only a smoke and a stench.
Barach went back indoors to comfort his family, ... How have you fared?"
"We are still alive," said Barach. ... What have you to say to that?"
"I will speak, ... And better that his legs should trample Orc-fire than mine."
Then he sat down and unlaced his buskins, ... then you must take a share in its hurts." NE-KE-10{[Footnote to the text: Of this story, my father remarked: "The tales, such as The Faithful Stone, that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of the Barad-dr and to the Ruling Ring."]}
NE-KE-11 <DM {
This long account of the Druedain has been given, into some of the legends of the First Age (e.g. the old retainer (Sadog) of Hurin in the legend of Turin).[Footnote to the text: [See Unfinished Tales, p. 386, note 8. Elsewhere Hurin's servingman is named Sador, not Sadog.]]

}The Drgs or Pukel-men are not however to be confused and they had or were credited with strange or magical powers. (The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring.){[Footnote to the text: [This sentence is cited in Unfinished Tales, p. 387, note 11.]]} Also the Drgs were a frugal folk, the Drgs were short-lived compared with other kinds of Men.
The Drgs that are met in the tales of the First Age not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there.NE-KE-12>
34 The years of the Edain were lengthened, and the faces that had beheld the Light.
Now to my additional changes:
NE-KE-04: This is the start of the Dredain stuff. It might be used to head the general discussion if this material should be placed here. I did not mark the removal of editorial footnotes with editing markers. I hope that is okay.

NE-KE-05: Here we have a special case. The material about the selfnaming should be included, but it can be discussed if a footnote is the right wax, when this arrangement was clearly editorial.

NE-KE-06: Thedeleted stuff should be used in the Second Age story.

NE-KE-07 and NE-KE-08: This alone would, in my opinion, be worth the inclusion of the Drg in this chapter.

NE-KE-09: JRR Tolkien marked these for deletion. But I hesitate about it. Even so I see Tolkiens reason, this would fit the Drg very well and provides a look into the attitude to fungus of the other Edain and Eldar.

NE-KE-10: Okay this is an editorial footnote, but it contains some Authorial statement. Therefore I put a marker on it. Nonetheless I think it must go.

NE-KE-11: This seems not useable as it is too much showing the essay stile.

NE-KE-12: I put that marker to discuss the Hobbit stuff that follows in OF Dwarves and Men. For me that would belong into the Third Age narrative. But it can be discussed if (farther) parts of it should be included here.

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Old 09-15-2017, 09:52 AM   #6
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I will make a more detailed reply to your comments as soon as I am able, but at the moment I would like to say that I think now that as long as no pieces of the essay are "lost" but are simply used in different parts of the work, then I suppose it does make sense to chop it up. There was a footnote you deleted about Merry and Elfhelm, and these are the kinds of deletions that I was worried about when you wanted to chop up the essay, so if that is included here again, or reused somewhere else (although I do not see how or where) then I will be ok with the addition of these sections, as well as the sections in the Dwarves chapter.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:17 AM   #7
Findegil
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What I deleted from the footnote was the editorial part added by Christopher Tolkien. It is true that in this part Elfhelm and Merry are reffered to, but these editorial refferences have to go anyhow. So I think it should be okay.

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Old 09-17-2017, 03:34 PM   #8
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As explained in Of the Sindar I would move 6 to that chapter and skip it here.

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Old 09-18-2017, 01:15 AM   #9
ArcusCalion
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I think we should keep the note about the fungus because it is such an interesting source of information about so many things.

On a side note, some of the other notes about the druedain in the UT chapter, are they being saved for the second and third age stuff?
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:22 PM   #10
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What is from JRR Tolkien himself in these notes is from later paragraphs of the essay. And yes, what is useable should be used there.

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