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Old 03-01-2004, 04:16 PM   #1
Aiwendil
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What Next?

Utulie'n Aure!

Yes, it would seem that the day has come when we finish the Fall of Gondolin.

Obviously, we now need to discuss what we will do next. And as Lindil has not been around for about a month (and has not replied to an e-mail I sent him a while ago) it looks like we'll have to discuss this in the absence of the founder of the project.

In my accustomed fashion, I will formulate the discussion in terms of a list of issues.

1. What do we do with the Fall of Gondolin draft? I think that a good first step might be to send it out to all the semi-active/former members of the project for review. This would have two benefits: first, it would generate some helpful comments and insights on our draft; second, it might rekindle the interest of some of those members. Perhaps we should send it to anyone who ever "officially" signed up for the project, regardless of how long they've been gone. Or perhaps we should send it only to those that have participated within, say, the past year.

2. A closely related procedural issue is when and how we are to go back and revise the Fall of Gondolin. It would be best, I think, not to do this whensoever any member desires. That would tend to create interminable discussion and also to deprive the current version of any kind of "official" status. On the other hand, we cannot simply declare it finished and never look at it again.

In the short-term, at any rate, I think that a decent course would be to send out the draft as proposed in 1, wait for a reasonable period so that any feedback is in, and then reopen discussion.

3. Related to 2, but applicable to the project in general: what is that status of the decisions made by voting? We have decided, if I recall correctly, the Orc/Ork, Bad Uthwen, ambiguous Balrogs, and Legolas issues by vote. I know that Lindil, for example, was unhappy with the Legolas decision. On the one hand, I hate to simply let these votes become absolute law and never be able to return to these issues, or reconsider them. On the other hand, I wouldn't feel at all right about simply reopening one of these issues and completely ignoring the previous result - particularly considering that most of the votes took place at a time when membership was higher, so in effect a very small group of people would be overruling the decision of a much larger one.

Note, again, that this is a very important issue not just for the Fall of Gondolin but for the project as a whole. It probably ought to be tied up before we commence another big project.

4. What is our next project? I know that Maedhros and Findegil have done some work on the Ruin of Doriath, which I, alas, have not yet looked at in great detail. Findegil has also brought up the possibility of going straight into Earendil.

I'm wary of starting another huge project so soon (especially the Ruin of Doriath, which is certainly the most problematic of any chapter). I think we should at least consider doing an easier section, one we could (one would hope) finish fairly quickly (more quickly, anyway, than the three years or so that FoG took).

In any case, I think we should finalize the Ainulindale and Valaquenta changes before starting on another big project.

5. As work on the Fall of Gondolin progressed, the more general discussions on matters that apply to the whole project became less and less active. I think that an unfortunate result of this is that a lot of former members who were interested in such questions but not so much in the technicalities of FoG lost interest. Now might be a good time to try to reinvigorate that interest (which might be done with my suggestion in 1 above) and re-open some discussions on general issues.
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Old 03-01-2004, 09:06 PM   #2
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1. What do we do with the Fall of Gondolin draft? I think that a good first step might be to send it out to all the semi-active/former members of the project for review. This would have two benefits: first, it would generate some helpful comments and insights on our draft; second, it might rekindle the interest of some of those members. Perhaps we should send it to anyone who ever "officially" signed up for the project, regardless of how long they've been gone. Or perhaps we should send it only to those that have participated within, say, the past year.
I think that it is a good idea but I would not restrict our draft for only the members of the project but to anyone who would want to read our work.

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In the short-term, at any rate, I think that a decent course would be to send out the draft as proposed in 1, wait for a reasonable period so that any feedback is in, and then reopen discussion.
Agree 100%.

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3. Related to 2, but applicable to the project in general: what is that status of the decisions made by voting? We have decided, if I recall correctly, the Orc/Ork, Bad Uthwen, ambiguous Balrogs, and Legolas issues by vote. I know that Lindil, for example, was unhappy with the Legolas decision. On the one hand, I hate to simply let these votes become absolute law and never be able to return to these issues, or reconsider them. On the other hand, I wouldn't feel at all right about simply reopening one of these issues and completely ignoring the previous result - particularly considering that most of the votes took place at a time when membership was higher, so in effect a very small group of people would be overruling the decision of a much larger one.
That is very tricksy in a way. I don't think there is an easy way out of this Aiwendil. I don't like the idea of fixed law, but unless there is a great argument that could sway the minds of the other members (ex. like Findegil's Mechanical Monsters proposal) I think that we should adhere to the vote.

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I'm wary of starting another huge project so soon (especially the Ruin of Doriath, which is certainly the most problematic of any chapter). I think we should at least consider doing an easier section, one we could (one would hope) finish fairly quickly (more quickly, anyway, than the three years or so that FoG took).
I would have liked for continuity's sake to follow with the Eärendil Chapter because we have already begun to discuss about that in the Fall of Gondolin section. We could use the advantage that we have those arguments fresh in our minds (relatively) and finish it, rather than going to the very beginning. We have to note that the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta chapters are very advanced and I think that they need only minor revisions. Antoine has those drafts ready or nearly ready. (I think)
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Old 03-01-2004, 09:56 PM   #3
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I think that it is a good idea but I would not restrict our draft for only the members of the project but to anyone who would want to read our work.
Okay, I agree. My main point was that we should actually send it to former project members and thus sort of actively court their interest. But certainly we can also make it available to anyone who wishes to read it.

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That is very tricksy in a way. I don't think there is an easy way out of this Aiwendil. I don't like the idea of fixed law, but unless there is a great argument that could sway the minds of the other members (ex. like Findegil's Mechanical Monsters proposal) I think that we should adhere to the vote.
Yes, the more I think about this, the trickier an issue it seems to become.

If the project had a relatively fixed membership it would not be much of a problem - the rule could simply be that if a majority of those that were on the winning side in the vote agree, it would be reopened. But it's very common here for members that voted to have disappeared.

Maybe this just means we ought to be really careful and make sure we get the votes right the first time . . .

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I would have liked for continuity's sake to follow with the Eärendil Chapter because we have already begun to discuss about that in the Fall of Gondolin section. We could use the advantage that we have those arguments fresh in our minds (relatively) and finish it, rather than going to the very beginning.
That's true. I suppose there's no reason we could not follow with Earendil.

I just worry that if we move on, say, to Earendil and then to Doriath, and if those each take something on the order of the time it took to do FoG, we will be working on more or less the same few stories for years to come - whereas if we went to some earlier and easier chapters, we would make much more rapid visible progress.

Before diving into another very large project, we ought to at least take note of the fact that it was on the fourth of June 2001 - two years and nine months ago - that we started the Fall of Gondolin (if I were inclined to make poor, text-based puns (which apparently I am . . .) I'd point out that we've had almost three years of FoG on the Barrow-downs).

But, then, I don't think that Earendil will prove quite as difficult as the Fall of Gondolin. Also, a good deal of the time spent on the previous project was spent in acquiring and refining our methods and techniques; now that we have practiced them, I suppose things will move along more quickly.

So if Findegil agrees about moving on to Earendil, I suppose we'll do it.

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We have to note that the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta chapters are very advanced and I think that they need only minor revisions. Antoine has those drafts ready or nearly ready. (I think)
Yes, I suppose those are just about finished. But I think we should re-examine them, finalize any little bits necessary, and make them "official".
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Old 03-02-2004, 07:04 AM   #4
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Okay I will go through the List of Aiwendil:

1.) Agreed. The Final version should steer some interest by the semi-active members. I would not open the Text to the public, but if someone comes in and shows interest we can send it to him as well.

2.) Agreed 100%. We have only to fix the minimal period we will wait before the reopening.

3.) Voting is the one think I do not like at all in the procedings of the project. I am happy that while I am a member it never came to that. In my view in the moment at leats the number of active members is to small for a voting. The old votings are problematic. They were based on old discussions that had come to a dead lock and were kind of solved by the vote. In reading the disussions I found that some times the votes were done fairly early. That means I would have like to discuss further and try to find an agreement. But all this does not make the recent issue howe to reopen a vote not easier. Maybe we should say that a discussion with was ended by a vote should only be reopened if 3/4 of the activmembers agree opon the reopening?

4.) It seems we agree upon working Eärendil as next chapter.
I like to say that I think Eärednil will be even harder than FoG and FoD but hopfully faster than FoG because we are better trained and the chapter is by leck of material shorter.
I also think that we should finailise Ainulindale and Valaquenta. But as they are near to finishing we should be able to do that along with the start of Eärendil.

5.) Agreed 100%. But it seems a quite normal prozess and it is difficult to avoide that. Your proposal to re-wake the interest by more general discussions is good. Start them up and I will help to make them controversal .

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Old 03-02-2004, 01:15 PM   #5
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Voting is the one think I do not like at all in the procedings of the project. I am happy that while I am a member it never came to that. In my view in the moment at leats the number of active members is to small for a voting. The old votings are problematic. They were based on old discussions that had come to a dead lock and were kind of solved by the vote. In reading the disussions I found that some times the votes were done fairly early. That means I would have like to discuss further and try to find an agreement. But all this does not make the recent issue howe to reopen a vote not easier. Maybe we should say that a discussion with was ended by a vote should only be reopened if 3/4 of the activmembers agree opon the reopening?
I can sympathize with your disliking for the idea of voting. But I still think that at times it becomes necessary. I agree that with the small number of current active members, voting is largely unnecessary. But with higher membership (and I remain strongly of the opinion that higher membership would be a very good thing) there appear cases where no consensus can be reached.

I was thinking that perhaps all the active members would need to agree to reopen a discussion closed by a vote. And even then, I worry about a small group of members (like our current population) overriding a decision made by a much larger group.

Of course, this needn't be made a pressing issue right now, unless someone wants to reopen one of the FoG votes. But it would be nice to clarify the issue.

Quote:
It seems we agree upon working Eärendil as next chapter.
I like to say that I think Eärednil will be even harder than FoG and FoD but hopfully faster than FoG because we are better trained and the chapter is by leck of material shorter.
I also think that we should finailise Ainulindale and Valaquenta. But as they are near to finishing we should be able to do that along with the start of Eärendil.
Okay. I say we wait until we have from Antoine a final FoG text, and we send it out to people. Then we can commence on Earendil.

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Your proposal to re-wake the interest by more general discussions is good. Start them up and I will help to make them controversal
Sounds good.

Another thought I had: long ago, Lindil suggested the possibility of making a sort of mailing list for the members that have signed up, so that periodically we can send out general updates on our progress and on the current discussions going on. Nothing more ever came of it. But now it sounds to me to be not too bad an idea, especially since it would remind members about the project on a semi-regular basis.
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Old 03-02-2004, 03:11 PM   #6
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Thumbs up

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Okay. I say we wait until we have from Antoine a final FoG text, and we send it out to people. Then we can commence on Earendil.
Hopefully that will be very soon when Antoine posts it in the Public forum. It will require a password in order to open it I think.

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Another thought I had: long ago, Lindil suggested the possibility of making a sort of mailing list for the members that have signed up, so that periodically we can send out general updates on our progress and on the current discussions going on. Nothing more ever came of it. But now it sounds to me to be not too bad an idea, especially since it would remind members about the project on a semi-regular basis.
I have always felt that one of the major problems facing this project was the lack of communication between the members. I think that having a members list of the persons involved in the project at one time would be an excellent idea.
There was this other idea in which the members who had IM softwares would share their IM names so that the communication between us would be swifter and more efficient, but alas, the only members who replied are no more amongst us.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:51 PM   #7
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Okay, I say we create a mailing list for members.

We should probably wait until we've sent out Antoine's final version to whomever we end up sending it to. If, as I hope, this generates some comments and some renewed interest, we can then ask those former members whether they'd like to re-join and be placed on the list.

Also, I suppose part of signing up for the project would now be being placed on that list.

Then we come to a slightly more difficult issue: what do actually send people who are on the list? Perhaps a monthly update on the status of the project? With what sort of information? I imagine that if we had had a mailing list during the FoG work, a lot of months the update would just have been "Still working on finishing up some minor changes" - not exactly enthralling reading material.

Still, I think that if we can work around these issues the mailing list would be a good thing.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:06 PM   #8
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Re: What Next?

1. If I hadn't been back yet and I got the FoG draft in an email I know I'd stop in. It is scary to have so many people getting a hold of a transitional text (maybe even some spies of the Estate?).

2. Waiting for some reader response (mine included) is good. I expect most to the plot issues are set after so much work and the editorial process will be limited to spelling and grammar.

3. I was around during some past voting. Namely the one where Ælfwine got axed. It's a good system but I'll leave it at this: democracy works as long as the majority is right. When the majority is wrong it doesn't. It's a good thing most of the voting will be done by people who have the right idea.

4. Getting on to Eärendil is a great move, keeping with the linear momentum built in FoG. But not so fast! Last time I was around the next step was working with the beginning: Ainulindalë and Valaquenta. Easier (by comparison) and already in the process of getting done, right?

5. There's nothing more general than "canon", and more specifically attempting a project like TftE in relation to that. It may be like preaching to the choir, but I think an open thread about why there needs to be a new Silmarillion; and maybe not just this one, but one sanctioned by the Estate. I don't know if the general Tolkien fan even thinks about this. Provoking their responses could not only generate interest in TftE but work towards changing the Estate's stance in lieu of popular opinion.
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:54 PM   #9
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1. If I hadn't been back yet and I got the FoG draft in an email I know I'd stop in. It is scary to have so many people getting a hold of a transitional text (maybe even some spies of the Estate?).
I'm hoping that your hypothetical reaction will be typical of the people we send the draft to; I really think that this could serve to remind some former members about the project.

Quote:
2. Waiting for some reader response (mine included) is good. I expect most to the plot issues are set after so much work and the editorial process will be limited to spelling and grammar.
That would be ideal, I suppose. One problem (or not, depending on how you look at it) may be that a lot of the comments will revolve around issues that we have worked on extensively, but where that work is invisible given only the draft text. I mean, for example, that the inclusion of the mechanical dragons may generate a lot of feedback; but surely most, if not all, of what there is to be said about that issue has already been said.

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4. Getting on to Eärendil is a great move, keeping with the linear momentum built in FoG. But not so fast! Last time I was around the next step was working with the beginning: Ainulindalë and Valaquenta. Easier (by comparison) and already in the process of getting done, right?
I agree that we should finalize these first, and I actually recently pulled up those threads. It would be great if you (and everyone else) could take a few minutes to look over the changes made so far and comment on anything that comes to mind (or if you agree with everything as it is, post and voice your agreement).

I think that those two could be finished off very quickly, and three draft texts is, at least psychologically, a lot more to show for three years of effort than just one.

What do people think of the mailing list idea?
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Old 03-08-2004, 05:39 PM   #10
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I agree that we should finalize these first, and I actually recently pulled up those threads. It would be great if you (and everyone else) could take a few minutes to look over the changes made so far and comment on anything that comes to mind (or if you agree with everything as it is, post and voice your agreement).
Of course, hopefully you will get my input in this week and we can have an official draft regarding our Ainulindalë and Valaquenta.

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What do people think of the mailing list idea?
I'm all for the mailing list idea.
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Old 03-16-2004, 11:26 AM   #11
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aaaaa

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Old 03-16-2004, 12:35 PM   #12
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Great work, Antoine, as usual.

I think we should now send the PDF out to the former/semi-active members, as discussed.

We never really decided on a list of people to send it to, though. I suggest sending it to everyone listed in the Introduction to the Project forum as a member:

Aiwendil
Alkanoonion
Antoine
Findegil
Heren Istarion
lindil
Maedhros
Mithadan
Tirinvo
Underhill, Mr.
Elenion, Tar
Eruhen
Gimli the Dwarf
Jallanite
Gwaihir the Windlord
Eru/Lenwa
Obloquy
Pengolodh
Telchar

Plus a few others that for some reason are not on the list:

Leyrana Silumiel
Petty Dwarf

Of course that's assuming that we can find ways of contacting all those members.

Obloquy is a curious case as he has, since leaving the project, been banned from the forum. I suppose perhaps we should remove him from the list.

We should also probably attach a brief introductory note.
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:08 PM   #13
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Obloquy is a curious case as he has, since leaving the project, been banned from the forum. I suppose perhaps we should remove him from the list.
I agree with all of the members that you intend to send the file. In the case of banned members, it is my strong personal opinion that being banned doesn't exclude you from receiving the file.
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Old 03-17-2004, 02:09 AM   #14
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What is about the Borrow Wright? He has some times shown interrest in the project and at least he provides the playing-ground so to say. I think we have at least to ceep him up to date.

About Obloquy: Aiwendil, aren't you a moderator in this forum? If so isn't there a forum for moderator? I would think that such cases as these are the reason for this moderator forum to exist.
We are not particulary interested in the reason why he was band, but if the state of afairs is such that he will have no chance to come back into the forum it would be hard for him participat in our work. That does not mean that we could not send him the files, but I think it could be hard put on him to rewake in interest in for coming back if their is no chance for it.
So, I think we should at least be aware of the situation.

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Old 03-17-2004, 08:32 AM   #15
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I think that you might want to add The Squatter of Amon Rûdh in that list Aiwendil.
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Old 03-17-2004, 10:04 AM   #16
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Tolkien

If Aiwendil or lindil has no way to email these thing to me, my email address is RigelMizar@aol.com. I say this in hope I will have time to read the material and formulate ideas, though my participation is still limited.
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Old 03-18-2004, 10:12 AM   #17
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lindil should reapper by April 12, I suppose

Though I hardly qualify for a semi-active title (being entirely inactive), I would highly appreciate getting a copy of FoG

cheers
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Old 03-18-2004, 11:06 AM   #18
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But you are already on the list HI. And you don't have to wait to receive it. It is posted on the site. http://www.revisedsilmarillion.fr.st/Fall%20of%20Gondolin%201.3.pdf . You just need the password to open it. If you want you can get it by pm'ing Antoine or the lady Meril-i-Turinqui.
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Old 03-18-2004, 11:10 AM   #19
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well, thanks

I followed the link, and my old pass worked for it

Seemingly, I have something to read for the night

cheers
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:49 PM   #20
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I've just finished sending an e-mail containing the link and the password to all the people on the list, except for those that have been around in the last few days and who, I assume, are aware of it already: Findegil, Maedhros, Antoine, Petty Dwarf, and HerenIstarion, and Lindil. I sent it via PM to most, since I didn't have the e-mail address in most cases. Of course, that means that old members will get it only if they check their PMs or are set up for e-mail notification . . .
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