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Old 04-26-2004, 08:30 PM   #41
Aiwendil
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VE-02: I'm not sure that these additions are necessary/justified. Clearly the only reason for embellishing the paragraph found in Q would be for the sake of including greater detail; there is no canonical issue. That doesn't mean that we can't add the material, but we must weigh the value of the added detail against the motivation to preserve Tolkien's words as well as possible.

VE-04: I don't think I see the justification for replacing the first clause of this paragraph with the QS77 version.

VE-05: It seems a little awkward to put the Lost Tales outline material here, immediately following the paragraph on Ulmo in Valinor. It seems to take us very abruptly from Valinor to the Havens. Maybe I'm over-analyzing though; it's possible that it only seems abrupt here since it is already obvious to us that the text is an addition from elsewhere.

VE-07: This sections's a bit choppy, but I suppose that's just a result of its origins in the Lost Tales outlines.

VE-08: The reference to the slaying of Ungoliant must be removed.

There should also be a paragraph break before "Vingelot he built . . ." Actually, it looks to me like all paragraph breaks have been suppressed in these emendations. They'll obviously have to be reinserted at some point.

Also, I think it should be "Vingilot" rather than "Vingelot". I'll have to check the later HoMe volumes to be sure.

VE-11: It should be noted that toward the beginning of this section, with the words "And they looked upon the Lonely Isle" we switch from Q30 as the base text to QS37.

VE-14: We need to think about "Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, which he had worn aforetime". Are we going to follow the story found in MT where Morgoth falsely repented? The question of course does not really concern the Earendil chapter; it concerns "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor", and whether it is to be considered merely a proposed change or whether it is one that we can legitimately work in.

VE-17: Why is "and the light before the Sun and the Moon" deleted?

VE-18: I suppose that "{Gnomes} [Teleri]" here must be an error for "{Gnomes} [Noldor]".

VE-20: The insertions from MT do not work as written; they are in a suddenly very different, more colloquial, style. I'm not sure that they are really needed; they would only add detail; they do not establish a new story or correct an obselete point.

VE-21: We need to think about the second prophecy of Mandos. There is an old thread concerning it which might be revived.

VE-22: I think this is an error; it is redundant with VE-23.

VE-23: I would actually rather not follow CRT in using the end of the Valaquenta here. I would suggest simply:

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Here endeth The Silmarillion: which is drawn out in brief from those songs and histories which are yet sung and told by the fading Elves[.] {and (more clearly and fully) by the vanished Elves that dwell now upon the Lonely Isle, {Tol Eressëa,} whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age when some man of {Eärendel} [Eärendil]'s race hath passed beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps upon the quays of {Avallon} [Tol Eressëa], and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of whom was {Ereol} [Eriol] one, that men named Ælfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands.}
VE-24: I'm not sure what the purpose would be of moving the Second Prophecy of Mandos here.

Pengelod, thanks for the summary. However, I would really like to avoid changing the numbering of the emendations on this project (it caused a lot of confusion for me on FoG). I have stuck with the original numbering - I think the numbers are spaced a bit too far apart, but I would prefer to be consistent.

I don't really see the point of either of the "appendices", quite frankly. I don't see a need to include Bilbo's song, and I don't see why the second prophecy of Mandos should be split off from the body of the text.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:44 PM   #42
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VE-02
Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.]/*AB2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and*\ /*Elessar Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast*\/*AB2 , and they were healed, and they multiplied*\ /*QS77 ; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them*\, and they took to the waves and {to the making of fair ships} /*QS77 the building of ships*\ /*AB2 and built a haven*\, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores /*QS77 of Arvernien*\, /*AB2 upon the delta amid the waters*\ under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. /*AB2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.*\*\
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VE-02: I'm not sure that these additions are necessary/justified. Clearly the only reason for embellishing the paragraph found in Q would be for the sake of including greater detail; there is no canonical issue. That doesn't mean that we can't add the material, but we must weigh the value of the added detail against the motivation to preserve Tolkien's words as well as possible.
Do you mean all of the additions from QS77. I have been thinking a little about it, and I now believe that we should get rid of the Orni/Earni, because if we follow the later Ainulindalë and Valaquenta accounts, in those there is no mention of them (if I recall correctly). So it would be nice to have that part from QS77 when it is the mariners of Círdan that taught them how to build the ships.

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VE-04: I don't think I see the justification for replacing the first clause of this paragraph with the QS77 version.
I think that you may be right, but CRT lines feels better IMO, and yes I know that should not be a factor in our decisions. The original clause would do just fine.

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VE-05: It seems a little awkward to put the Lost Tales outline material here, immediately following the paragraph on Ulmo in Valinor. It seems to take us very abruptly from Valinor to the Havens. Maybe I'm over-analyzing though; it's possible that it only seems abrupt here since it is already obvious to us that the text is an addition from elsewhere.
Can you offer an alternative way?

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VE-07: This sections's a bit choppy, but I suppose that's just a result of its origins in the Lost Tales outlines.
This, along with section VE-03 are still in the works but I rather like section VE-07. Can you offer an alternative to section VE-07. Also you forgot to mention about section VE-03.

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VE-08: The reference to the slaying of Ungoliant must be removed.
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But /*QS77 in after days it was sung that*\ Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the {Noldoli} [Noldor] whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the {Gnomes} [Elves] of Tol Eressëa; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men. Bright {Eärendel} [Eärendil] was then lord of the folk of Sirion and their many ships; and he took to wife Elwing the fair, and she bore him Elros and Elrond, who are called the Halfelven. Yet {Eärendel} [Eärendil] could not rest, and his voyages about the shores of the Hither Lands eased not his unquiet. Two purposes grew in his heart, blended as one in longing for the wide sea: he sought to sail thereon, seeking after Tuor and Idril Celebrindal who returned not; and he thought to find perhaps the last shore and bring ere he died the message of Elves and Men unto the Valar of the West, that should move the hearts of Valinor and the Elves of {Tûn} [Tirion] to pity on the world and the sorrows of Mankind.
Vingelot he built, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles. {Ungoliantë in the South he slew, and her darkness was destroyed, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid.} But Elwing sat sorrowing at home.
{Eärendel} [Eärendil] found not Tuor nor Idril, nor came he ever on that journey to the shores of Valinor, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by repelling winds, until in longing for Elwing he turned him homeward toward the East. And his heart bade him haste, for a sudden fear was fallen on him out of dreams, and the winds that before he had striven with might not now bear him back as swift as his desire.
I think it was an overlook only.

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VE-11: It should be noted that toward the beginning of this section, with the words "And they looked upon the Lonely Isle" we switch from Q30 as the base text to QS37.
Ok.

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VE-14: We need to think about "Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, which he had worn aforetime". Are we going to follow the story found in MT where Morgoth falsely repented? The question of course does not really concern the Earendil chapter; it concerns "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor", and whether it is to be considered merely a proposed change or whether it is one that we can legitimately work in.
I'm a little lost here, but wasn't Morgoth in the Q and QS chained?

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VE-17: Why is "and the light before the Sun and the Moon" deleted?
Good point.

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VE-18: I suppose that "{Gnomes} [Teleri]" here must be an error for "{Gnomes} [Noldor]".
An oversight to be sure.

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VE-20: The insertions from MT do not work as written; they are in a suddenly very different, more colloquial, style. I'm not sure that they are really needed; they would only add detail; they do not establish a new story or correct an obselete point.
I can argue that we would have the same problem in the Fall of Gondolin with the later Tuor material and Tuor B. I don't see the harm in adding it, after all they are the words of JRRT, unlike in change VE-02. I thought that making a more "Complete Sil" was part of our purpose.

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VE-21: We need to think about the second prophecy of Mandos. There is an old thread concerning it which might be revived.
It would be nice to retain it but alas, I see no way to do it as of now.

I want to bring up this:
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VE-18
And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the {Gnomes} [Teleri] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest. <RGEO Yet in the case of Galadriel a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.>
I added the material from the RGEO in there. I think that although it is not ultimately necessary, I think it would add some detail in here, and because it comes from RGEO it is canonical too.
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Old 04-29-2004, 05:32 PM   #43
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All quotes are from Maedhros's last post.
VE-02
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Do you mean all of the additions from QS77.
Yes, and from AB2 as well.

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I have been thinking a little about it, and I now believe that we should get rid of the Orni/Earni, because if we follow the later Ainulindalë and Valaquenta accounts, in those there is no mention of them (if I recall correctly).
I don't think that this amounts to their rejection. A great many things are not mentioned in Ainulindale or Valaquenta - werewolves, wolfhounds, Boldogs, etc.

VE-02
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I think that you may be right, but CRT lines feels better IMO, and yes I know that should not be a factor in our decisions. The original clause would do just fine.
I say we return to the original.

VE-05
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Can you offer an alternative way?
Good question. I'll think about it.

VE-07
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This, along with section VE-03 are still in the works but I rather like section VE-07. Can you offer an alternative to section VE-07. Also you forgot to mention about section VE-03.
I don't follow. My complaint about VE-07 is that the Lost Tales additions seem slightly awkward; there are no Lost Tale additions in VE-03.

VE-14
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I'm a little lost here, but wasn't Morgoth in the Q and QS chained?
Yes, but in one of the Myths Transformed texts there enters a story where he willingly submits after the Battle of the Powers, and does not wear Angainor at that point. In my opinion, that text is in the grey area where we need to examine it carefully in order to decide whether it is workable or not. If it is, the "which he had worn aforetime" must be removed.

VE-20
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I can argue that we would have the same problem in the Fall of Gondolin with the later Tuor material and Tuor B. I don't see the harm in adding it, after all they are the words of JRRT, unlike in change VE-02. I thought that making a more "Complete Sil" was part of our purpose.
One major difference is that whereas all versions of FoG were written as narrative, these notes from MT were never intended as narrative of any sort. I agree that our goal is not to create something of literary worthiness, but rather a "Complete Silmarillion". But that does not mean that we take everything that Tolkien ever wrote that pertains to some particular point and mix it all together. I don't think that the MT additions accomplish anything, and they do badly interrupt the prose.

VE-18
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I added the material from the RGEO in there. I think that although it is not ultimately necessary, I think it would add some detail in here, and because it comes from RGEO it is canonical too.
Again, I don't think that just because something could be added it necessarily should be. Also, I'm wary about adding quotations from "primary" works already published during Tolkien's lifetime.

A while back, you wrote:
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My problem with using especifically the name of Galdor and Egalmoth is that I think that it would be too much of a liberty from my point of view. If you can use the principles to convince me that it is ok, I might change my mind.
As I recall, the justification for this is from the Name List that accompanies the Lost Tales FoG.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:00 PM   #44
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I don't follow. My complaint about VE-07 is that the Lost Tales additions seem slightly awkward; there are no Lost Tale additions in VE-03.
What I meant is that section VE-03 should be look at, not that it had Lost Tales material.

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Yes, but in one of the Myths Transformed texts there enters a story where he willingly submits after the Battle of the Powers, and does not wear Angainor at that point. In my opinion, that text is in the grey area where we need to examine it carefully in order to decide whether it is workable or not. If it is, the "which he had worn aforetime" must be removed.
Ok. I would retain that he was chained, yet I do so because of personal taste more than something that comes from our principles.

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One major difference is that whereas all versions of FoG were written as narrative, these notes from MT were never intended as narrative of any sort. I agree that our goal is not to create something of literary worthiness, but rather a "Complete Silmarillion". But that does not mean that we take everything that Tolkien ever wrote that pertains to some particular point and mix it all together. I don't think that the MT additions accomplish anything, and they do badly interrupt the prose.
Whenever I'm proposing emendations, I try to find hopefully everything that JRRT wrote about certain point and try to add it in the narrative. While the addition from Myths Transformed is not a narrative like the Quenta, I still think that although not being essential, IMO I think it would be worth the effort to add that detail. As to badly interrupting the the prose, that is a matter of opinion (certainly I'm no expert in the use of the English Language) but overall I don't think the damaging of the prose is greater than the addition of that bit of detail in it.

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Again, I don't think that just because something could be added it necessarily should be. Also, I'm wary about adding quotations from "primary" works already published during Tolkien's lifetime.
Why so? Since our goal is not to create something of literary worthiness, but rather a "Complete Silmarillion", why not create the most "Complete Silmarillion" that we can. And that addition does in fact corrects a detail that not all of the Ñoldor were allowed to return to Valinórë.

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As I recall, the justification for this is from the Name List that accompanies the Lost Tales FoG.
I'm not sure what you mean. The problem that I had with using the Egalmoth and Galdor names at that place is that there is no narrative or notes by JRRT that suggests the usage of those names in the Voyage of Eärendil. I think that it comes very close to fan-fiction, no offense intended.
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:07 PM   #45
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
What I meant is that section VE-03 should be look at, not that it had Lost Tales material.
Yes, surely Gil-Galad is still an issue.

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Ok. I would retain that he was chained, yet I do so because of personal taste more than something that comes from our principles.
To make a decision on this point, we'll have to look closely at MT and at the extant Battle of the Powers narratives.

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Why so? Since our goal is not to create something of literary worthiness, but rather a "Complete Silmarillion", why not create the most "Complete Silmarillion" that we can.
This is a bigger issue than the points at hand. I guess my main problem with the addition is that it's not really narrative - it's analysis. It's Tolkien analyzing the Valar's actions and motives. I don't think it adds any new narrative substance to the passage.

As for not creating the most complete Silmarillion that we can - we didn't add any fragments from II to the the later Tuor; we didn't add material from the Glorfindel essays to the battle with the Balrog; we didn't add anything from the Lost Tales to the Ainulindale or Valaquenta.

It's not a very clear matter in my mind, though, and I'll think about it.

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I'm not sure what you mean. The problem that I had with using the Egalmoth and Galdor names at that place is that there is no narrative or notes by JRRT that suggests the usage of those names in the Voyage of Eärendil. I think that it comes very close to fan-fiction, no offense intended.
In the Name List accompanying the Fall of Gondolin it is said, as I recall, that Egalmoth made it out of Gondolin and was slain in the Third Kin-slaying, and that Galdor survived the Kin-slaying and is now living happily in Tol Eressea.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:24 AM   #46
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I guess my main problem with the addition is that it's not really narrative - it's analysis. It's Tolkien analyzing the Valar's actions and motives. I don't think it adds any new narrative substance to the passage.
Exactly. It's an inappropriate intrusion into the text. I don't think Tolkien even wrote that in the modern Translator's voice, but his own for the benefit of his successors.

I still believe the paragraph order in QS77 is far superior. Maybe it was just haste in composition that made Tolkien order it that way, but it was a wise editorial move to correct it. I think we should follow that lead.

Pengoloð kicks *** for putting this together.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:47 AM   #47
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VE-02: I don't see a problem with the additions from AB2. They are taken in to add some detail but that we would need such additions in this chapter was clear from the start. Other wise the break between FoG and FoD would be unbearable. I can see the problem with Q77. They have no as fare as I am aware of no direct source in the writings of JRR Tolkien, and some are only variants of wording which we should aviode. This applies also to VE-04.

VE-05: Could it be an alternativ to switch the §§? In the Moment we have: The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; the tale of Eärendils youth; Tour's depature.
If we take the additions from BoLT one § earlier that would give:
The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; the tale of Eärendils youth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; Tour's depature.
It is clear that between Eärendils youth and Tour's depature some time elapsed, thus the intrusion of Ulmo's visit to Valinor would fill that time gap in the narritive.

VE-08: I am not very happy to lose the encounter with Ungoliant completly. It is clear that we can not say that he had slain her, but success full fight with the waever of darkness in the south was never gainsiad, as fare as I know (or do I overlook some fact here?). So couldn't we chang it like this:
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Vingilot he built, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles. Ungoliantë in the South he {slew}[fought], and her darkness was destroyed, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid. But Elwing sat sorrowing at home.
VE-10: My Additions to that § concerning Galdor and Eglamoth were not only based on the Gnomisch Lexicon (given as the appendix of Names in BoLT2) but were word by word taken from them. That is what makes them a bit blocky in my view. But the real issue in that section is still Gilgalad, I think.

VE-14: If we in the end come to the conclusion that Melkor was never chained with Angainor before than I would think that we should alter the sentence to:
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Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, [with ]which he had {worn}[been threatened] aforetime; and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. But Eönwë took the two Silmarils which remained and guarded them.
VE-20 Do these additions from MT "badly interupt the prose"? I can not feel that, but I am no native speaker, and thus no good judge in this matter. The additions are clearly not really neccessary, thus we could go with out them.

VE-21: Yes, we should discuss the issue of the second phrophecy in that old thread. (I must really re-read it, to get back into that issue.)

VE-23: I agree with Aiwendil here.
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I don't really see the point of either of the "appendices", quite frankly. I don't see a need to include Bilbo's song, and I don't see why the second prophecy of Mandos should be split off from the body of the text.
Agreed, for both appendices.

The Galadriel issue: I have a strong feeling that we should not deal with Galadriel situation if we can aviod it. If we do make it in the end through all the First Age stuff and come to the Second Age we must of course incooperate Of Galadiel and Celeborn but we should not make any decission before that time, and even if RGEO is cannon, we should aviod pointing at it here. What is justified from RGEO is to alter the sentence as followes:
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VE-18
And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor{, as all were free to do who willed}; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
Thus we would allow the ban for some leaders but not making it explicit here, with out need.

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Old 05-04-2004, 04:13 PM   #48
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VE-10: My Additions to that § concerning Galdor and Eglamoth were not only based on the Gnomisch Lexicon (given as the appendix of Names in BoLT2) but were word by word taken from them. That is what makes them a bit blocky in my view. But the real issue in that section is still Gilgalad, I think.
From The Fall of Gondolin: Entries in the Name-list to The Fall of Gondolin
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Egalmoth was 'lord of the house of the Heavenly Arch, and got even out of the burning of Gondolin, and dwelt after at the mouth of Sirion, but was slain in a dire battle there when Melko seized Elwing'. (See p. 258.)
Galdor 'was that valiant Gnome who led the men of the Tree in many a charge and yet won out of Gondolin and even the onslaught of Melko upon the dwellers at Sirion's mouth and went back to the ruins with Eärendel. He dwelleth yet in Tol Eressëa (said Elfriniel), and still do some of his folk name themselves Nos Galdon, for Galdon is a tree, and thereto Galdor's name akin.' The last phrase was emended to read: 'Nos nan Alwen, for Alwen is a Tree.'
Ok. I didn't see that. But Aiwendil, was this Entry meant to be part of a narrative or an explanation like the one in Myths Transformed.

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The Galadriel issue: I have a strong feeling that we should not deal with Galadriel situation if we can aviod it. If we do make it in the end through all the First Age stuff and come to the Second Age we must of course incooperate Of Galadiel and Celeborn but we should not make any decission before that time, and even if RGEO is cannon, we should aviod pointing at it here. What is justified from RGEO is to alter the sentence as followes:
I really like that change.

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I still believe the paragraph order in QS77 is far superior. Maybe it was just haste in composition that made Tolkien order it that way, but it was a wise editorial move to correct it. I think we should follow that lead.
I agree that QS77 paragraph order is superior to that of the Quenta Silmarillion, but can we use our principles in order to change it?

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As for not creating the most complete Silmarillion that we can - we didn't add any fragments from II to the the later Tuor; we didn't add material from the Glorfindel essays to the battle with the Balrog; we didn't add anything from the Lost Tales to the Ainulindale or Valaquenta.
I have been looking at the Glordindel Essay from HoME 12, and I didn't see anything that could be added to the battle with the Balrog, nevertheless I did see something that could be added to the Of the Flight of the Noldor chapter.

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One major difference is that whereas all versions of FoG were written as narrative, these notes from MT were never intended as narrative of any sort. I agree that our goal is not to create something of literary worthiness, but rather a "Complete Silmarillion". But that does not mean that we take everything that Tolkien ever wrote that pertains to some particular point and mix it all together. I don't think that the MT additions accomplish anything, and they do badly interrupt the prose.
Can you explain to me in detail as to why the addition from MT badly interrupts the prose?
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Old 05-07-2004, 02:37 PM   #49
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VE-5:
TE-E {Eärendel} [Eärendil] {hears} [heard] a great song swelling from the sea as {Tur} [Tuor]'s skiff {dips} [dipped] over the world's rim. {His} [Great was his] passion of tears upon the shore.*\ {, and} [And Tuor] came no more into any tale or song

Dipped over the worlds rim.
Round Earth...
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Old 05-07-2004, 03:45 PM   #50
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Findegil wrote:
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Findegil VE-02: I don't see a problem with the additions from AB2. They are taken in to add some detail but that we would need such additions in this chapter was clear from the start. Other wise the break between FoG and FoD would be unbearable.
Well, I've said it many times before (and I'll say it again, I'm sure) - I think that in any case, the break between FoG and VoE will be "unbearable" (so will the break in RoD where "Wanderings" ends - actually this latter will probably be even worse).

I'm torn on the issue of the additions from AB2. Yes, they were written by Tolkien. But to what extent can we just take a sentence from here, a sentence from there, and splice them all together?

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VE-05: Could it be an alternativ to switch the §§? In the Moment we have: The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; the tale of Eärendils youth; Tour's depature.
If we take the additions from BoLT one § earlier that would give:
The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; the tale of Eärendils youth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; Tour's depature.
It is clear that between Eärendils youth and Tour's depature some time elapsed, thus the intrusion of Ulmo's visit to Valinor would fill that time gap in the narritive.
This might be the best solution.

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VE-08: I am not very happy to lose the encounter with Ungoliant completly. It is clear that we can not say that he had slain her, but success full fight with the waever of darkness in the south was never gainsiad, as fare as I know (or do I overlook some fact here?).
It was never specifically denied, but in LQ we have: "It is said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." It's not given as a certainty ("it is said . . ."), but even the possibility is certainly enough to proclude her from VoE.

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VE-14: If we in the end come to the conclusion that Melkor was never chained with Angainor before than I would think that we should alter the sentence to:
Your change looks good to me.

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VE-20 Do these additions from MT "badly interupt the prose"? I can not feel that, but I am no native speaker, and thus no good judge in this matter. The additions are clearly not really neccessary, thus we could go with out them.
It's my strong opinion that they do. Perhaps others would disagree.

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I have a strong feeling that we should not deal with Galadriel situation if we can aviod it. If we do make it in the end through all the First Age stuff and come to the Second Age we must of course incooperate Of Galadiel and Celeborn but we should not make any decission before that time, and even if RGEO is cannon, we should aviod pointing at it here. What is justified from RGEO is to alter the sentence as followes:
I agree in principle. But I think your solution has an unintended consequence. You suggested:

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And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor{, as all were free to do who willed}; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
But I do not think that the "as all were free to do who willed" is intended to apply to Noldor returning to Aman; I interpret as emphasizing that they were not restricted to Tol Eressea; they were free to settle in Valinor itself again if they wished.

Perhaps instead we could use:
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And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all [that went west] were free to do who willed; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
Or something along those lines.

Maedhros wrote:
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Ok. I didn't see that. But Aiwendil, was this Entry meant to be part of a narrative or an explanation like the one in Myths Transformed.
A good question. I can see an argument either way. On the one hand, it's in a text that was certainly not meant to be a narrative. On the other hand, it seems very likely that, had he written a full tale of Earendil, he would have told what happened to Egalmoth and Galdor there; and of course, the only way we have of introducing that element is from the name list.

I think it's altogether different from the MT text. That text was an analysis of the work; the name-list is not. And, critically, the MT passage in question does not contain any information not already in the text; it only analyzes the Valar's actions. The name-list, on the other hand, is the only source for those plot points.

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I agree that QS77 paragraph order is superior to that of the Quenta Silmarillion, but can we use our principles in order to change it?
I tend to think not. But it's worth some consideration.

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Can you explain to me in detail as to why the addition from MT badly interrupts the prose?
It's simply in a totally different style - a very colloquial style. I suppose if I must analyze it - "Mere criminal" and "executed" are rather out of place compared with the surrounding diction. And the sort of afterthought construction of "as judge – and executioner" is very colloquial. The point is that this is thoroughly Tolkien, the author, evaluating the motives of his characters.

Tar Elenion wrote:
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Dipped over the worlds rim.
Round Earth...
Yes - but this comes from a Lost Tales outline, which means it comes from a flat earth cosmology already. I suppose it could be a slip on Tolkien's part - but then in changing it we are in the position of "correcting" him. We might avoid the problem altogether by using:

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/TE-NC Idril and {Earendel} [Earendil] {see} [saw] Tuor's boat dropping into the twilight and a sound of song.\/TE-E {His} [Great was Earendil's] passion of tears upon the shore.*\ {, and} [And Tuor] came no more into any tale or song
Where TE-NC refers to the scraps of outline from "notebook C" that follow the A-E outlines in II. It still "drops" (cf. "dip") but "into the twilight" which sounds safer than "over the world's rim".

Good to see you, T-E.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-24-2004 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 05-09-2004, 06:59 AM   #51
Findegil
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
It [the fight between Eärendil and Ungoliant] was never specifically denied, but in LQ we have: "It is said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." It's not given as a certainty ("it is said . . ."), but even the possibility is certainly enough to proclude her from VoE.
But that doth only mean that Earendil had notkilled her. The storyline I have in mind is as follows: After Ungoliant was driven away from Lammoth, she established for a time on the south slopes of the Ered Gorgoroth and produced there some foul offspring. (Like Shelob about which it is told in The Lord of the Ring that she had fought Beren when he crossed the Gorgorth.) In my view she must have left Beleriand fairly early since we get no record of that event. This could only mean that she left before the Noldor settled in East-Beleriand or even before the rising of the moon and sun as will be explained later. But this detail does not matter here. She wandered to the south of Middle-Earth and dwelt their at first in a (for her) hohlesome area at the coast. As was her habbit, she produce a darkness around her home. (That darkness even lasted after the sun and moon were lifted, thus it can be said that Eärendils victory over Ungoliant brought light to many places that had been dark. That is the reason why I think she left Beleriand even before the rising of the sun.) When Eärendil came on his voyages to the south of Middle-Earth he encountered Ungoliant and both fought with each other. Eärendil was victorius and drove her from the coast into the more dessert like innlands of south Middle-Earth. There "in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." Thus both statements are more or less true: Eärendil killed her but not directly, and she devoured her self.
But this is my picture and clearly not "cannon".

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And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all [that went west] were free to do who willed; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
I like that change even beter than my own.

Respectfully
Findegil

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Old 05-21-2004, 05:59 PM   #52
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I'm torn on the issue of the additions from AB2. Yes, they were written by Tolkien. But to what extent can we just take a sentence from here, a sentence from there, and splice them all together?
Well, I am afraid that when I let now my cat out of the bag I will even more tore you.

So I will postpone that just for a § in my post to address first your concerns. As fare as the project had come we have behaved very different. In FoG we did use nearly any bit of writing we could find to update a very old basic text. In The Ainulindale and The Valaquenta we did nearly the opposite: we did consider the texts as they stood as a final version and did restrict our editing to very minor points much more often resulting in passages taken out than in additions to the text. The difference was in part caused by the kind of text we used as basic. For the later two texts the basis was a version of the narrative prepared by Tolkien for a planed publication together with LotR. In the case of FoG it was text prepared for a public reading early in the 1920th. We have as jet not discussed FoD, but Maedhros and I did use a wide range of texts to create our versions of that chapter and we didn't heard as jet any comment that would suggest that we shouldn't do so in the end. For FoD and for The Tale of Eärendil (and also for the later part of FoG) the LQ2 typescript is the last textual version Tolkien "produced", that we have. Now we are dealing with a text based on a dull copy made when Tolkien thought to secure any written stuff and looked over by him in a very curios way. If the project way back when dealing with the transition from the later Tour to the battle about Gondolin decided not to take LQ2 as the ultima ratio, than I can't see any good reason why we should do in this chapter! It is one thing to restrict our self when dealing with a text that Tolkien himself sought of as part of a more or less updated version of his planed Silmarillion, but does anybody think he regarded the last chapters of the LQ2 series as such?

Now for what I called my cat in the sack: Early in this thread we did neglect the Bilbos Eärendil was a mariner. Petty Dwarf and I did think of addition form LT2 But none of us did endeavour to add them to the passage of Eärendils journey. After an analysis of the sources I will at long last give that editing a go. It might be entirely or in part rejected in the end but I find it at least worth a try. At first I like to say that acording to The Tale of the Years Eärendils voyages lasted 4 years. Second: During my reading I found that one of the later works Tolkien did on the story of Eärendil was a revision (which he himself dated hesitatingly to 1940) of the poem The Happy Mariners. That did support me in including material of LT2 including this very poem. 1940 is about the time when Tolkien did work also at Eärendil was a mariner.
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VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot'{ he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles.<LotR Form gnashing of the Narrow Ice where shadow {lies}laid on frozen hills><LT2 - Outline E{He searches for Elwing and is}he was blown far to the South.><LotR{from}From nether heats and burning waste he turned ><LT2 - Outline C{Driven south. Darkregions. }Fire mountains{. Tree-men. Pygmies.}/ he saw and Ents and Drûgs he encountered/><LotR, and roving still on starless waters far astray{ at last} he came to Night of Naught >wherein Ungoliant{'}/ had made her abode. There/ in the South he {slew}<defeated her>, and her darkness was destroyed, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid.<LT2 - Outline E{He escapes}Eärendil escaped eastward{. He goes}/, but he went/ back westward[.] But Elwing sat sorrowing at home.

VE-09Eärendil found not Tuor nor Idril, nor came he ever on that journey to the shores of Valinor, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by repelling winds, until in longing for Elwing he turned him homeward toward the East. And his heart bade him haste, for a sudden fear was fallen on him out of dreams, and the winds that before he had striven with might not now bear him back as swift as his desire.
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VE-11But great was the sorrow of [Eärendil] and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. For Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. Yet [Eärendil] saw now no hope left in the lands of Sirion, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most oft at the prow, and the Silmaril he bound upon his forehead; and ever its light grew greater as they drew unto the West. Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles.<LT2 - isolated Note (xii)The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl was awakened by {Littleheart's gong:}[them]/. He was/ a messenger that was despatched years ago by Turgon and enmeshed in magics. Even now he {cannot }could not leave the Tower and {warns}warned them of the magic. Thus they{ and} escaped their enchantment<. Later the Elves made a song in his memory:
><LT2 - The Happy Mariners (Version of 1940?)

I know a window in a Western tower
that opens on celestial seas,
from wells of dark behind the stars
there ever blows cold a keen unearthly breeze.
It is a white tower builded on the Twilit Isles,
and springing from their everlasting shade
it glimmers like a house of lonely pearl,
where lights forlorn take harbour ere they fade.

Its feet are washed by waves that never rest.
There silent boats go by into the West
all piled and twinkling in the dark
with orient fire in many a hoarded spark
that divers won
in waters of the rumoured Sun.
There sometimes throbs below a silver harp,
touching the heart with sudden music sharp;
or far beneath the mountain high and sheer
the voices of grey sailors echo clear,
afloat among the shadows of the world
in oarless ships and with their canvas furled,
chanting a farewell and a solemn song:
for wide the sea is, and their journey long.

O happy mariners upon a journey far,
beyond the grey islands and past Gondobar,
to those great portals on the final shores
where far away constellate fountains leap,
and dashed against Night's dragon-headed doors
in foam of stars fall sparkling in the deep!
While I look out alone behind the moon
Imprisoned in the white and windy tower,
you bide no moment and await no hour,
but go with solemn song and harpers' tune.

You follow [Eärendil] without rest,
the shining mariner, beyond the West,
who passed the mouth of night and launched his bark
upon the seas of everlasting dark.
Here only long afar through window-pane
I glimpse the flicker of the golden rain
that falls for ever on those outer seas
beyond the country of the shining Trees.

>{; and they}And Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows; and they looked upon the Lonely Isle and there they tarried not; and at the last they cast anchor in the Bay of Elvenhome upon the borders of the world; and the Teleri saw the coming of that ship and were amazed, gazing from afar upon the light of the Silmaril, and it was very great. But [Eärendil], alone of living Men, landed on the immortal shores; and he said to Elwing and to those that were with him, three mariners who had sailed all the seas beside him, and Falathar, Aerandir, and Erellont were their names: Here shall none but myself set foot, lest you fall under the wrath of the {Gods}[Valar] and the doom of death; for it is forbidden. But that peril I will take on myself for the sake of the Two Kindreds.'
So fare for now. I am not sure of my addition myself, but if they stir a discussion it was worth the act of writing.

Next on my agenda are additions to the description of the war of warth.

Respectfully
Findegil

Edited: I just changed the format to bring it more in accordens with our "rules".

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Old 05-23-2004, 05:24 PM   #53
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Her we go again. I will try to add some info on the War of Wrath or the Last and Terible Battle of Beleriand. Fist of all: What I give is based on a article I did some time ago for “Der Bote von Gondor”, which is the free e-mail fanzine of Tolkiens-Welt.de. The text was in its original form meant as a description how Bilbo found in the archives of Imladris the answer to the imagined question: How did the War of Wrath proceed? But I have eliminated the fan-fictional elements. First of all I will give a collection of the sources used:

The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: [I]Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings[I]; chapter VI: Quenta Silmarillion with the emendations given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 2: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters. This is our basic text. If I shift passages around I will mark them BT for Basic-Text.

In addition we have a very late source Unfinished Tales; Part 4; chapter II: The Istari (UT). It is given in full in my summary.

Let’s go next to the many Annals which retell the events in short. The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 3: The Wanderings of Húrin and other writings not forming part of The Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V. The Tale of the Years (I will go with the entries with all changes made to them in the last stage called D by Christopher Tolkien, as fare as D goes thereafter C respectively B is given) (TY)
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511 Exiles of Gondolin (Tuor, Idril and Earendil &c.) reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril.
512 Sons of Feanor learn of the uprising of the New Havens, and that the Silmaril is there, but Maidros forswears his oath.
525 The Unquiet of Ulmo carne upon Tuor and he built a ship Earame, and departed into the West with Idril (and Voronwe?) and is heard of in no tale since. Earendil wedded Elwing and became Lord of the men of the Havens.
527 Torment fell upon Maidros and his brethren (Maglor, Damrod and Diriel) because of their unfulfilled oath.
532 Elros and Elrond twin sons of Earendil born.
534 Voyages of Earendil begin.
538 The Third and Last Kinslaying. The Havens of Sirion destroyed and Elros and Elrond sons of Earendel taken captive, but are fostered with care by Maidros. Elwing carries away the Silmaril, and comes to Earendil in the likeness of a bird.
542 Earendil comes to Valinor.
540 The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle of Balar.
545 The host of the Valar comes up out of the West. Fionwe son of Manwe lands in Beleriand with great power.
545-587 The last war of the Elder Days, and the Great Battle, is begun. In this war Beleriand is broken and destroyed. Morgoth is at last utterly overcome, and Angband is unroofed and unmade. Morgoth is bound, and the last two Silmarils are regained. Ancalagon is cast down by Ëarendil and all save twi of the Dragons are destroyed.
587 Maidros and Maglor, last surviving sons of Feanor, seize the Silmarils. Maidros perishes. The Silmarils are lost in fire and sea.
590 The Elves and the Fathers of Men depart from Middle-earth and pass over Sea. Morgoth is thrust from Arda into the Outer Dark.
Here end the Elder Days with the passing of Melkor, according to the reckoning of most lore-masters; here ends also the First Age ...
To provide more details I will give also the precursor of this text: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings; chapter III: The Later Annals of Beleriand (AB2)
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508 Here the wanderers from Gondolin reached the mouths of Sirion and joined there the slender company of Elwing. The Silmaril brought blessing upon them, and they were healed, and they multiplied, and built a haven and ships, and dwelt upon the delta amid the waters. Many fugitives gathered unto them.
510 Maidros learned of the upspringing of Sirion's Haven, and that the Silmaril was there, but he forswore his oath.
524 Here the unquiet of Ulmo came upon Tuor, and he built the ship Earame, Eagle's wing, and he departed with Idril into the West, and was heard of no more. Earendel wedded Elwing the White, and was lord of the folk of Sirion.
525 Torment fell upon Maidros and his brethren, because of their unfulfilled oath. Damrod and Diriel resolved to win the Silmaril, if Earendel would not give it up willingly. But the unquiet had come also upon Earendel, and he set sail in his ship Wingelot, Flower of the Foam, and he voyaged the far seas seeking Tuor, and seeking Valinor. But he found neither; yet the marvels that he did were many and renowned. Chief of these was the slaying of Ungoliantë. Elrond Beringol, the Half-elvenn, son of Earendel, was born while Earendel was far at sea.
The folk of Sirion refused to surrender the Silmaril, both because Earendel was not there, and because they thought that their bliss and prosperity came from the possession of the gem.
529 Here Damrod and Diriel ravaged Sirion, and were slain. Maidros and Maglor were there, but they were sick at heart. This was the third kinslaying. The folk of Sirion were taken into the people of Maidros, such as yet remained; and Elrond was taken to nurture by Maglor. But Elwing cast herself with the Silmaril into the sea, and Ulmo bore her up, and in the shape of a bird she flew seeking Earendel, and found him returning.
530 Earendel bound the Silmaril upon his brow, and with Elwing he sailed in search of Valinor.
533 Earendel came unto Valinor, and spoke on behalf of the two races, both Elves and Men.
540 Maidros and Maglor, sons of Feanor, dwelt in hiding in the south of Eastern Beleriand, about Amon Ereb, the Lonely Hill, that stands solitary amid the wide plain. But Morgoth sent against them, and they fled to the Isle of Balar. Now Morgoth's triumph was complete, and all that land was in his hold, and none were left there, Elves or Men, save such as were his thralls.
533-543 Here the sons of the Gods prepared for war, and Fionwe son of Manwe was their leader. The Light-elves marched under his banners, but the Teleri did not leave Valinor; but they built a countless multitude of ships.
547 Here the host of Fionwe was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglorest, where Ingwiel son of Ingwe, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.
Great war came now into Beleriand, and Fionwe drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field. He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.
* 550 Here Fionwe fought the last battle of the ancient world, the Great or Terrible Battle. Morgoth himself came forth from Angband, and passed over Taur-na-Fuin, and the thunder of his approach rolled in the mountains. The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But Fionwe crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed; and Morgoth fled back to Angband pursued by Fionwe.
From Angband Morgoth loosed the winged dragons, which had not before been seen; and Fionwe was beaten back upon Dor-na-Fauglith. But Earendel came in the sky and overthrew Ancalagon the Black Dragon, and in his fall Thangorodrim was broken.
The sons of the Gods wrestled with Morgoth in his dungeons, and the earth shook, and gaped, and Beleriand was shattered and changed, and many perished in the ruin of the land. But Morgoth was bound.
This war lasted fifty years from the landing of Fionwe.
597 In this year Fionwe departed and went back to Valinor with all his folk, and with them went most of the Gnomes that yet lived and the other Elves of Middle-earth. But Elrond the Half-elfin remained, and ruled in the West of the world.
Now the Silmarils were regained, for one was borne in the airs by Earendel, and the other two Fionwe took from the crown of Melko; and he beat the crown into fetters for his feet. Maidros and Maglor driven by their oath seized now the two Silmarils and fled; but Maidros perished, and the Silmaril that he took went into the bosom of the earth, and Maglor cast his into the sea, and wandered ever after upon the shores of the world in sorrow.
Thus ended the wars of the Gnomes, and Beleriand was no more.
To make the recounting of this tradition complete, I will also take up the earlier Annals The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter VII: The Earliest Annals of Beleriand (AB1)
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208 Here the wanderers from Gondolin reached the mouths of Sirion and joined with the slender company of Elwing. The Silmaril brings blessing upon them and they multiply, and build ships and a haven, and dwell upon the delta amid the waters. Fugitives gather to them.
210 Maidros hears of the upspringing of Sirion's Haven and that a Silmaril is there, but he forswears his oath.
224 The Unquiet of Ulmo comes upon Tuor and he builds the ship Earame, Eagle's Pinion, and departs with Idril into the West and is heard of no more. Earendel weds Elwing and is lord of the folk of Sirion.
225 Torment of Maidros and his brothers because of their oath. Damrod and Diriel resolve to win the Silmaril if Earendel will not yield it.
Here unquiet came upon Earendel and he voyaged the seas afar seeking Tuor, and seeking Valinor, but he found neither. The marvels that he did and saw were very many and renowned. Elrond Half-elfin, son of Earendel, was born. The folk of Sirion refused to give up the Silmaril in Earendel's absence, and they thought their joy and prosperity came of it.
229 Here Damrod and Diriel ravaged Sirion, and were slain. Maidros and Maglor gave reluctant aid. Sirion's folk were slain or taken into the company of Maidros. Elrond was taken to nurture by Maglor. Elwing cast herself with the Silmaril into the sea, but by Ulmo's aid in the shape of a bird flew to Earendel and found him returning.
230 Earendel binds the Silmaril on his brow and with Elwing sails in search of Valinor.
233 Earendel comes unto Valinor and speaks on behalf of both races.
240 Maglor, Maidros, and Elrond with few free Elves, the last of the Gnomes, live in hiding from Morgoth, who rules all Beleriand and the North, and thrusts ever East and South.
233-43 The sons of the Gods under Fionwe son of Manwe prepare for war. The Light-elves arm, but the Teleri do not leave Valinor, though they built a countless host of ships.
247 Fionwe's host draws nigh to the Hither Lands and his trumpets from the sea ring in the western woods. Here was fought the Battle of Eldorest, where Ingwil son of Ingwe made a landing. Great war comes into Beleriand, and Fionwe summons all Elves, and Dwarves, and Men, and Beasts, and birds to his standards, who do not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great, and many did not obey.
* 250 Here Fionwe fought the last battle of the ancient North, the Great or Terrible Battle. Morgoth came forth, and the hosts were arrayed on either side of Sirion. But the host of Morgoth were driven as leaves and the Balrogs destroyed utterly, and Morgoth fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Fionwe.
He loosed thence all the winged Dragons, and Fionwe was driven back upon Dor-na-Fauglith, but Earendel came in the sky and overthrew Ancalagon the Black Dragon, and in his fall Thangorodrim was broken.
The sons of the Gods wrestled with Morgoth in his dungeons and the earth shook and all Beleriand was shattered and changed and many perished, but Morgoth was bound.
Fionwe departed to Valinor with the Light-elves and many of the Gnomes and the other Elves of the Hither Lands, but Elrond Half-elfin remained and ruled in the West of the world.
Maidros and Maglor perished in a last endeavour to seize the Silmarils which Fionwe took from Morgoth's crown. So ended the First Age of the World and Beleriand was no more.
We will also have a look to the older material in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa; 2nd Version (QII)
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Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said, for in his armies carne none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made these tales; and tidings only long after did they leam of these things from their kinsfolk the Light-elves of Valinor. But Fionwe came, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky, and he summoned unto him all Men and Elves from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, and the mountains rang.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, the Battle of Wrath and Thunder. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Hate, and well nigh measureless had it become, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. All the Balrogs were destroyed, and the uncounted hosts of the Orcs perished like straw in fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world thereafter. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Fathers of Men fought for Fionwe, and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo; for by Earendel son of Tuor was help brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men were they strengthened on the fields of war. But most Men especially those new come out of the East, were on the side of the Enemy. But Morgoth quailed and he came not forth; and he loosed his last assault, and that was the winged dragons for as yez had none of these creatures of his cruel thought assailed the air. So sudden and so swift and ruinous was the onset of that fleet, as a tempest of a hundred thunders winged with steel, that Fionwe was driven back; hut Earendel came and a myriad of birds were about him, and the battle lasted all through the night of doubt. And Earendel slew Ancalagon the black and the mightiest of all the dragon-horde, and cast him from the sky, and in his fall the towers of Thangorodrim were thrown down. Then the sun rose of the second day and the children of the Valar prevailed, and all the dragons were destroyed save two alone; and they fled into the East. Then were all the pits of Morgoth broken and unroofed, and the might of Fionwe descended into the deeps of the Earth, and there Morgoth stood at last at bay; and yet not valiant. He fled unto the deepest of his mines and sued for peace and pardon. But his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then was he bound, with the chain Angainor, which long had been pre-
pared, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed unto his knees. But Fionwe took the two Silmarils that remained and guarded them.
Thus perished the power and woe of Angband in the North, and its multitude of thralls came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world all changed; for so great was the fury of those adversaries that the Northern regions of the Western world were rent and riven, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and the rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more. Then Men fled away, such as perished not in the ruin of those days, and long was it ere they came back over the mountains to where Beleriand once had been, and not until the tale of those wars had faded to an echo seldom heard.
The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa; 1st Version (QI)
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Of the march of Fionwe to the North little is said, for in that host there were none of the Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Outer Lands, and who made these tales; and tidings only long after did they learn of these things from their distant kinsfolk the Elves of Valinor. The meeting of the hosts of Fionwe and of Morgoth in the North is named the Last Battle, the Battle Terrible, the Battle of Wrath and Thunder. Great was Morgoth's amaze when this host came upon him from the West, and all Hithlum was ablaze with its glory, and the mountains rang; for he had thought that he had estranged the Gnomes for ever from the Gods and from their kin, and that content in their blissful realm the Gods would heed no further his kingdom in the world without. For heart that is pitiless counts not the power that pity hath; nor foresees that of gentle ruth for anguish and for valour overthrown stern anger may be forged, and a lightning kindled before which mountains fall.
There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Hate, and well nigh measureless had it become, so that Dor-na-Fauglith might by no means contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. All the Balrogs were destroyed, and the uncounted hosts of the Orcs perished like straw in fire, or were swept away like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world thereafter. And Morgoth himself came forth, and all his dragons were about him; and Fionwe for a moment was driven back. But the sons of the Valar in the end overthrew them all, and but two escaped. Morgoth escaped not. Him they threw down, and they bound him with the chain Angainor, wherewith Tulkas had chained him aforetime, and whence in unhappy hour the Gods had released him; but his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed unto his knees. The Silmarils Fionwe took and guarded them.
Thus perished the power and woe of Angband in the North and its multitude of captives came forth into the light again beyond all hope, and looked upon a world all changed. Thangorodrim was riven and cast down, and the pits of Morgoth uncovered, roofless and broken, never to be rebuilt; but so great was the fury of those adversaries that all the Northern and Western parts of the world were rent and gaping, and the sea roared in in many places; the rivers perished or found new paths, the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more. Then Men fled away, such as perished not in the ruin of those days, and long was it ere they came back over the mountains to where Beleriand once had been, and not till the tale of those days had faded to an echo seldom heard.
To give it in complete form, I give also the earliest Text of the Silmarillion tradition The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter II: The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’ or Sketch of the Mythology (S)
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The march of Fionwe into the North is then told, and of the Terrible or Last Battle. The Balrogs are all destroyed, and the Orcs destroyed or scattered. Morgoth himself makes a last sally with all his dragons; but they are destroyed, all save two which escape, by the sons of the Valar, and Morgoth is overthrown and bound by the chain Angainor and his iron crown is made into a collar for his neck. The two Silmarils are rescued. The Northern and Western parts of the world are rent and broken in the struggle and the fashion of their lands altered.
The Gods and Elves release Men from Hithlum, and march through the lands summoning the remnants of the Gnomes and Ilkorins to join them. All do so except the people of Maidros. Maidros prepares to perform his oath, though now at last weighed down by sorrow because of it. He sends to Fionwe reminding him of the oath and begging for the Silmarils. Fionwe replies that he has lost his right to them because of the evil deeds of Feanor, and of the slaying of Dior, and of the plundering of Sirion. He must submit, and come back to Valinor; in Valinor only and at the judgement of the Gods shall they be handed over.
Maidros and Maglor submit. The Elves march to the Western shore, and begin to set sail from Leithien (Britain or England) for Valinor. Thence they ever still from time [to time] set sail leaving the world ere they fade.
On the last march Maglor says to Maidros that there are two sons of Feanor now left, and two Silmarils; one is his. He steals it, and flies, but it burns him so that he knows he no longer has a right to it. He wanders in pain over the earth, and casts it into a fiery pit. One Silmaril is now in the sea, and one in the earth. Maglor sings now ever in sorrow by the sea.
The Gnomes and many of the Ilkorins and Teleri and Qendi repeople the Lonely Isle. Some go back to live upon the shores of Faery and in Valinor, but Cor and Tûn remain desolate.
The earliest prose description is given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales 2; chapter VI: The History of Eriol or Ælfwine and the End of the Tales (E&Æ)
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Coming of the Eldar. Encampment in the Land of Willows of first host. Overwhelming of Noldorin and Valwe. Wanderings of Noldorin with his harp.
Tulkas overthrows Melko in the battle of the Silent Pools. Bound in Lumbi and guarded by Gorgumoth the hound of Mandos.
Release of the Noldoli. War with Men as soon as Tulkas and: Noldorin have fared back to Valinor.
Noldoli led to Valinor by Egalmoth and Galdor.

Noldorin escapes from the defeat of the Land of Willows and takes his harp and goes seeking in the Iron Mountains for Valwe and the Gnomes until he finds their place of imprisonment. Tulkas follows. Melko comes to meet him.

March of the Elves out into the world.
The capture of Noldorin.
The camp in the Land of Willows.
Army of Tulkas at the Pools of Twilight ........ and [?many] Gnomes, but Men fall on them out of Hisilome.
Defeat of Melko.
Breaking of Angamandi and release of captives.
Hostility of Men. The Gnomes collect some of the jewels.
Elwing and most of the Elves go back to dwell in Tol Eressea. The Gods will not let them dwell in Valinor.
At long last we have two hints of events in the Battle that were given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales 2; chapter III: The Fall of Gondolin (FG)
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… Nor were they [the Noldoli that served Ulmo] strong against the magic of that place of willows, for very great was its enchantment. Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it? Indeed sleeping and dancing here, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by Melko from the Hills of Iron and Noldorin made bare escape thence. But these things were not as yet.


… So came they after many days -- for they went slowly and got their sustenance every hardly -- to those great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Pools of Twilight, even where Tulkas' after fought with Melko's self. …
Out of this multitude of sources I made up my mind for the following arrangement of the proceeding of the War of Wrath. I will first give a chronological summary:

In the year 542 Eärendil reached Valinor. Concerning the action taken by the Elder King it is told: “Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë.” “Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingwe [and Ingwion son of Ingwe was their chief]; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Finraphin son of Finwë was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but Elwing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her father's side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.”

For the year 547 it is told:
“Here the host of Fionwe was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of {Eglorest}[Eglarest], where {Ingwiel}[Ingwion] son of Ingwe, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.” It seems that Eönwë followed: “But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.” That does sound like “the {Gods}[Maiar] and Elves release Men from Hithlum”. In an earlier Version it is even told that “all Hithlum was ablaze with its [Eönwës hosts] glory”. Also we have the statement: “And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Fathers of Men fought for Fionwe, and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo; for by {Earendel}[Eärendil] son of Tuor was help brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men were they strengthened on the fields of war. But most Men especially those new come out of the East, were on the side of the Enemy.”
“Great war came now into Beleriand, and Fionwe drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field.” This fields beside Sirion are most likely the Talth Dirnen.
From what happened to them, we can assume that the Maiar Noldorin with the host of the Noldor made a landing further south (Isle of Balar / Sirions mouth?) and “camp in the Land of Willows” [Nan-Tathren]. And we here from an “Army of Tulkas at the Pools of Twilight [Aelin-uial]”.

Thus we can assume that about 550 the state of affairs was as follows: “The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage.” [Which passages? There come to mind the Brithiach and caverns of the Tumultuous Winds, where Sirion dives Underground just after Aelin-uial. The secret bridge from Nivrim to Region would have been destroyed. I supposed.]

In the autumn of a later year (let say 570) the Battle of Tasarinan [Nan-Tathren] was fought: “Noldorin and his Eldar come there [Nan-Tathren] seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it? Indeed sleeping and dancing here, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by {Melko}[Morgoth] from the Hills of Iron and Noldorin made bare escape thence.” “Noldorin escapes from the defeat of the Land of Willows and takes his harp and goes seeking in the Iron Mountains for Valwe and the Gnomes until he finds their place of imprisonment. Tulkas follows.” [It is unlikely that the Valar could restrict a character like Poldorea form taking part in the war action, even if he was not the leader; he is more a champion of warriors than a leader in battle anyway.]
Thus we learn from The Lost Tales: “great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again {above the Pools of Twilight}, even where Tulkas' {after} fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoth Balrogs]. [That it could not be Melkor himself is clear from his behaviour in the later versions, but we can assume that this was a determining fight at the Twilit Pools, Why I take the Balrogs as replacement should become clear in the next §.]
“{Fionwe}[Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed””, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth”, “and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Fionwe.”

It must have been about the year 585 when it is told: “There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.[…] The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind” [That could only mean that Eönwë had to fight the passes into Anfauglith.]

In 597 the state of affairs must have become very threatening for Morgoth: “Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air. So sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that Eönwë was driven back; for the coming of the dragons was with a great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire, and their wings were of steel.
Then Earendel came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven, and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. And ere the rising of the sun Earendel slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and he cast him from the sky, and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim and they were broken and thrown down. Then the sun rose, and the {Children}[host] of the Valar prevailed, and all the dragons were destroyed, save two alone; and they fled into the East. Then all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of Eönwë descended into the deeps of the earth. And there Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, [with] which he had {worn}[been threatened] aforetime; and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. But Eönwë took the two Silmarils which remained and guarded them.
Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to nought; and out of the pits and deep prisons a multitude of thralls came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world all changed.”

It is clear that not all of this can form part of our text, but I will now try to in cooperate what ever I can in the text. We start in the middle of
VE-11:
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Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingwë <BT, just moved a half-sentence, and Ingwion his son {of Ingwë} was their chief.>{; and among} Among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and [Finrafin] son of Finwë was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but Elwing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her father's side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.
This change has already been discussed earlier.

VE-13.01:
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Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.> But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of{ his} arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath.{ There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; <QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.<AB2 Great war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field>. <FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor} Noldorin and his Eldar {come}[came to Nan-Tathren]{there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end}and were like to abandon {it?}[their march.] Indeed sleeping and dancing {here}there, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and Noldorin made bare escape thence.><E&Æ The Army of Tulkas /camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even {where}there Tulkas'{ after} fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoth’s Balrogs].><AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
There we are. I hope you enjoyed the reading. Please do not consider it all or nothing, any small addition would add some detail.

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Old 05-24-2004, 08:25 AM   #54
Maédhros
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First, I want to say great work in bringing up those great quantity of details to the discussion. I would discuss them at a later post.

I think that this bring up a greater problem of what to and not to add in our version, depending of our source text. As Findegil has posted earlier, we have no rule as to how and when to add outside material to our work. We had no problem in adding when we used old base text, eg. The Fall of Gondolin, but we do have a problem when we dealt with the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta because the base text was very advanced in terms of when it was written.

If it were up to me, I would try to add as much as possible while trying to maintain a sense of canon to our work. Can a specific set of rules can be made? I don't think so.
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Old 05-27-2004, 09:25 AM   #55
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But that doth only mean that Earendil had notkilled her. The storyline I have in mind is as follows: After Ungoliant was driven away from Lammoth, she established for a time on the south slopes of the Ered Gorgoroth and produced there some foul offspring. (Like Shelob about which it is told in The Lord of the Ring that she had fought Beren when he crossed the Gorgorth.) In my view she must have left Beleriand fairly early since we get no record of that event. This could only mean that she left before the Noldor settled in East-Beleriand or even before the rising of the moon and sun as will be explained later. But this detail does not matter here. She wandered to the south of Middle-Earth and dwelt their at first in a (for her) hohlesome area at the coast. As was her habbit, she produce a darkness around her home. (That darkness even lasted after the sun and moon were lifted, thus it can be said that Eärendils victory over Ungoliant brought light to many places that had been dark. That is the reason why I think she left Beleriand even before the rising of the sun.) When Eärendil came on his voyages to the south of Middle-Earth he encountered Ungoliant and both fought with each other. Eärendil was victorius and drove her from the coast into the more dessert like innlands of south Middle-Earth. There "in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." Thus both statements are more or less true: Eärendil killed her but not directly, and she devoured her self.
But this is my picture and clearly not "cannon".
That's plausible. But I think that particularly the uncertainty found in QS demands that she be removed from "Earendil". At any rate, since retaining Earendil's encounter with her requires a more or less fan-fictional justification, we ought to leave it out.

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In FoG we did use nearly any bit of writing we could find to update a very old basic text. In The Ainulindale and The Valaquenta we did nearly the opposite: we did consider the texts as they stood as a final version and did restrict our editing to very minor points much more often resulting in passages taken out than in additions to the text. The difference was in part caused by the kind of text we used as basic. For the later two texts the basis was a version of the narrative prepared by Tolkien for a planed publication together with LotR. In the case of FoG it was text prepared for a public reading early in the 1920th. We have as jet not discussed FoD, but Maedhros and I did use a wide range of texts to create our versions of that chapter and we didn't heard as jet any comment that would suggest that we shouldn't do so in the end. For FoD and for The Tale of Eärendil (and also for the later part of FoG) the LQ2 typescript is the last textual version Tolkien "produced", that we have. Now we are dealing with a text based on a dull copy made when Tolkien thought to secure any written stuff and looked over by him in a very curios way. If the project way back when dealing with the transition from the later Tour to the battle about Gondolin decided not to take LQ2 as the ultima ratio, than I can't see any good reason why we should do in this chapter! It is one thing to restrict our self when dealing with a text that Tolkien himself sought of as part of a more or less updated version of his planed Silmarillion, but does anybody think he regarded the last chapters of the LQ2 series as such?
I think you are right, but there is more to be said. That LQ2 is not a finished text in the way that Ainulindale D (for example) is does not mean that LQ2 should be classed with FoG. You're right that we didn't use LQ2 for the transition from the later "Tuor" to FoG; but that was largely because the necessary material was all either in FoG already or found in the Tuor outline, which was certainly to be preferred to LQ.

Note that in cases in FoG where we inserted pieces from secondary sources, those secondary sources were invariably later and were almost always used for the express purpose of correcting obselete elements of the story.

Now in this section, LQ2 is the final text. But as far as LQ2 is uncertain (which is a matter to be dealt with in its own right), the final authoritative text must be QS. But even if we were to consider LQ wholly spurious, QS is still (apparently) later than AB2. So if we make additions from AB2, they are additions of a fundamentally different kind from the FoG additions - they are not from a later text, serving to correct obselete points. They are in fact from an earlier text.

However - I'm still unsure. One other point is that in the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, part of the reason for not making additions was that we seemed to be considering these the veritable "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta". Clearly, we are not doing the same for the "Quenta Silmarillion".

As for Bilbo's poem: I must say that I am against using pieces of it, for two reasons (aside from the general concern discussed above). First, I'm not so sure about using text from a complete and distinct work, like The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. Second, we have no assurance at all of the accuracy of Bilbo's poem.

As for the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl: it's certainly plausible to retain this element, though I think we need to carefully consider whether we are entirely justified in doing so.

"The Happy Mariners" has some problems, I think. First, the "orient fire in many a hoarded spark" found in the "waters of the rumoured sun" doesn't seem to make any sense with respect to the established geography/cosmology. The other major problem is "Gondobar". It is difficult to understand why the name is used here, but in any case it is certain that for our purposes it refers to Gondolin.

Concerning the War of Wrath: I must disagree about Noldorin and Tulkas. Noldorin is, as far as I can tell, only present in the Book of Lost Tales. There is no later account of his adventure in the Land of Willows . This in itself is sufficient to give us pause - but consider also the nature of that adventure. The geography then was such that one seeking to come to Dor-Lomin might well begin at Nan-Tathren, but the later geography is completely different, placing Nan-Tathren far in the south. It seems quite unlikely in the context of the later material that a Maia and a part of the host would simply forget their mission and lounge about in the Land of Willows. Also, the enslaved Noldor element was later significantly down-played. I think it is safest by far to lose the Noldorin story.

As for Tulkas - I don't see why we should include him. All mention of his involvement disappear in the latest texts. The old story taht the Valar were directly involved was clearly rejected - why should Tulkas alone survive? Again, I think it is possible that he could have been there, but that based on the material we have we cannot include him.
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Old 06-04-2004, 12:45 PM   #56
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Findegil:
In VE-11
Quote:
Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingwë <BT, just moved a half-sentence, and Ingwion his son {of Ingwë} was their chief.>{; and among} Among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and [Finrafin] son of Finwë was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but Elwing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her father's side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.
Why is it necessary to move that sentence up.

In [b]VE-13.01[b]
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.> But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of{ his} arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath.{ There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; <QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.<AB2 Great war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field>. <FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor} Noldorin and his Eldar {come}[came to Nan-Tathren]{there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end}and were like to abandon {it?}[their march.] Indeed sleeping and dancing {here}there, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and Noldorin made bare escape thence.><E&Æ The Army of Tulkas /camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even {where}there Tulkas'{ after} fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoth’s Balrogs].><AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
I have to agree with Aiwendil about the addition of both Noldorin and Tulkas in here. Mostly I would agree with the first addition from AB2, and the first addition from QII. I'm not sure about the second AB2 addition though. The FG is a nono to me too.
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Old 06-04-2004, 05:06 PM   #57
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Posted by Maédhros about VE-11:
Quote:
Why is it necessary to move that sentence up.
If we wouldn't move it we would have:
Quote:
Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingwë; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Ingwion son of Ingwë and< [Finrafin] son of Finwë> {was}were their chiefs.
That is possible but I think the other version is much better.

About VE-13.01: Well, to say the truth, I did in deed expect that you found much of that passages to riscy. But still it I am glad too have done it. Now I will try to brake it down to acceptable level.
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.> But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of{ his} arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath.{ There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; <QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.<AB2 Great war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field>. <FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come}[the Noldor came to Nan-Tathren]{there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?} Indeed sleeping and {dancing here}camping there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few] made bare escape thence.><E&Æ A Army {of Tulkas }/camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even {where}there {Tulkas' after}[they] fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoth’s Balrogs]>then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Posted by Aiwendil about VE-08
Quote:
That's plausible. But I think that particularly the uncertainty found in QS demands that she be removed from "Earendil". At any rate, since retaining Earendil's encounter with her requires a more or less fan-fictional justification, we ought to leave it out.
I am do not agree with that as you might have already thought. Why I am at al lose to scip Eärendils encounter with Ungoliante is the greeting of Eärendil by Eönwë: "Hail Eärendil, radiant star, messenger most fair! Hail thou bearer of light before the Sun and Moon, looked for that comest unawares, the longed for that comest beyond hope! Hail, splendour of the children of the world, slayer of the Dark! Satr of the sunset, hail! Hail, herald of the morn!" This was never changed as fare as I can see, but it is clearly a text of less value than remark in QS.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Now in this section, LQ2 is the final text. But as far as LQ2 is uncertain (which is a matter to be dealt with in its own right), the final authoritative text must be QS. But even if we were to consider LQ wholly spurious, QS is still (apparently) later than AB2. So if we make additions from AB2, they are additions of a fundamentally different kind from the FoG additions - they are not from a later text, serving to correct obselete points. They are in fact from an earlier text.
The addition are from a earlier text, but they serve the same purpose than did the addition done by FoG as a basic text.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
However - I'm still unsure. One other point is that in the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, part of the reason for not making additions was that we seemed to be considering these the veritable "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta". Clearly, we are not doing the same for the "Quenta Silmarillion".
I did not like that treatment of the "Valaquenta" and the "Ainulindale" as "Middle-Earth internal texts". That does not mean that I did not like the result of the editing.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
As for Bilbo's poem: I must say that I am against using pieces of it, for two reasons (aside from the general concern discussed above). First, I'm not so sure about using text from a complete and distinct work, like The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. Second, we have no assurance at all of the accuracy of Bilbo's poem.
I did use parts in which the song corosponded to the earlier Versions of Eärendils voyage. I did use the poem, becuase the text of it was useable than what we find in LT2.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
As for the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl: it's certainly plausible to retain this element, though I think we need to carefully consider whether we are entirely justified in doing so.

"The Happy Mariners" has some problems, I think. First, the "orient fire in many a hoarded spark" found in the "waters of the rumoured sun" doesn't seem to make any sense with respect to the established geography/cosmology. The other major problem is "Gondobar". It is difficult to understand why the name is used here, but in any case it is certain that for our purposes it refers to Gondolin.
Agreed in all points! For the first point we should look for more info about the timeline of writing. About the "hoarded sparks" I also marked that, but with out knowledge the cosmology told in LT1 (as a read of the 1940 version would certainly not have), you could take it as a pictorially discription of a unknown treasure. "Gondobar" is indeed a heavy problem, for which I have no solution ad hand. But what a discussion could be be made for.

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Old 06-06-2004, 02:37 PM   #58
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On the New proposed VE-13.01
Quote:
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor. <AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, [and the challenge of his trumpets] {and the noise of his trumpets} rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.> But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, {and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky}; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of{ his} arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
I would move up and the challenge of his trumpets, rather than use both times that the hosts of Eönwë used their trumpets as proposed. It seems very odd to me that they used their trumpets when they were at the sea and when they landed.

Quote:
<AB2 Great war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field>. <FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come}[the Noldor came to Nan-Tathren]{there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?} Indeed sleeping and {dancing here}camping there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few] made bare escape thence.>
This is where I begin to have problems. the Noldor came to Nan-Tathren. Who are these Noldor? I see the break to great in having the tents of Eönwë in Sirion and then we jump inmidiately to the Noldor came to Nan-Tathren.

Quote:
<E&Æ A Army {of Tulkas }/camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even {where}there {Tulkas' after}[they] fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoth’s Balrogs]>then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
This gets messy for me here. The transitions from one text to the other seem very abrupt to me. Let me see if I'm getting this straight:
An Army camped at the Pools of Twilight, the great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, [where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows] even there [they] fought with [Morgoth’s Balrogs]>then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.

The part that I put in bold seems very odd looking to me.
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Old 06-14-2004, 07:08 AM   #59
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Posted by Maédhros:
Quote:
I would move up and the challenge of his trumpets, rather than use both times that the hosts of Eönwë used their trumpets as proposed. It seems very odd to me that they used their trumpets when they were at the sea and when they landed.
This is a minor point, I would go with both versions. But I still think it is plausible to for Eönwë to use his horns twice. First when the fleet is seen upon the western see as a signal of hope for the elves and man of Beleriand and a sign for the start of the attack and the second time when he has establishe himself in western Beleriand as challenge for Morgoth and a summon to all the willing people to gather about his banner. I would think that in a fifty year long war using your horns only once would be unbeliveable.

For the rest of the passage I must say that I worked only with text fromated for the forum. That led to some hard breaks concealed by the deleted but still present words and phrases. For that reason I tried to rework it and will present it here in both version plain text and forum formated

Forum formatted:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.> But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard}, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.<BT
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath.><AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. ><FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?}[The Noldor of Eönwës host camped long in Nan-Tathren.] Indeed sleeping {and dancing here}there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few] made bare escape thence.><E&Æ An other Army of {Tulkas}[Eönwës host] /camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even there{where Tulkas' after fought with Melko's self><E&Æ{Army of Tulkas at the Pools of Twilight ........ and [?many] Gnomes, but} Men fall on them out of {Hisilome}[Hithlum].>E&Æ<{Tulkas overthrows Melko}[But these Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them] in the battle of the Silent Pools. >Then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Plain Text:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor. The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. The Noldor of Eönwës host camped long in Nan-Tathren. Indeed sleeping there, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by Morgoth from the Ironhills and only a few made bare escape thence. An other army of Eönwës host camped at the Pools of Twilight, the great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, where goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Lands of Willows, even there Men fall on them out of Hithlum. But these Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them in the battle of the Silent Pools. Then Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: My appologise for the late response. But beside very time consuming demands of my professional job, we had a small but excelent meting of german Tolkien enthusiast this weekend, which demanded all that was left of my time.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:44 AM   #60
Aiwendil
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Sorry for the great delay in my response.

You've split up and moved:

Quote:
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Now I agree that all but the first sentence of this must be placed after the account of the battle at Sirion. But I don't see the need to move the first sentence. Indeed, moving it as you do makes it sound as though "The Great Battle" refers specifically to the battle over the river Sirion.

In fact, I wonder whether the whole thing ought to be moved to the battle on the Anfauglith. Does "the Great Battle" refer to the whole campaign or just to the final overthrow of Morgoth? I had always assumed the former, but reading the passage from a certain point of view, I can convince myself of the latter.

Quote:
[The Noldor of Eönwës host camped long in Nan-Tathren.]
Where does this come from? I understand it to be a replacement for the Lost Tales story of Noldorin - but what suggests that it was specifically the Noldor of Eonwe's host that camped in Nan-Tathren (as opposed to the Vanyar)?

More importantly, are we really justified in retaining and altering this Lost Tales account? I don't see that any later changes necessitate that the account be lost completely, but they certainly make the account dubious. I think it would be safer to drop this and the story of the battle of the Silent Pools. At any rate, this:

Quote:
But these Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them in the battle of the Silent Pools.
. . . ought, I think, to be:

Quote:
But the Army of Eönwë's host overthrew them in the battle of the Silent Pools.
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Old 07-04-2004, 01:13 PM   #61
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
More importantly, are we really justified in retaining and altering this Lost Tales account? I don't see that any later changes necessitate that the account be lost completely, but they certainly make the account dubious. I think it would be safer to drop this and the story of the battle of the Silent Pools.
This is a realy general question. Safer it would clearly be to drop all my additions. But I found it very furstarting that I could learn near to nothing about that last battle that was clearly so improtant for the History of the Hitherlands when I have read The Silmarillion. With my proposal I tried to amaned that and give at least a idea of the course of the 50 year long war. I have no better arguement for the additions, that you have not taken in to your considerations. I can clearly go without all my aditions, but I would find the account more interresting and more fitting the goal of our project with them. I will go on to make my text as good as it can be done, without being sure my self if we should use it in the end.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Now I agree that all but the first sentence of this must be placed after the account of the battle at Sirion.
But I don't see the need to move the first sentence. Indeed, moving it as you do makes it sound as though "The Great Battle" refers specifically to the battle over the river Sirion.
You might be right here. Reading my own text again in the light what you said it might even be better to move even more of the passage.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I understand it to be a replacement for the Lost Tales story of Noldorin - but what suggests that it was specifically the Noldor of Eonwe's host that camped in Nan-Tathren (as opposed to the Vanyar)?
Your understanding is clearly right and it is an editorial addition needed to get the story working without Noldorin. What makes me feel that the Vanyar and Noldor of Aman builded separate entities in that war, is the fact that Ingwiel made his landing fare to the north of Nan-Tathren. Why should they then camp so far south afterwards? For me it seems fitting that Eönwë made some of his host land in the south to secure the remaining Elves of Beleriand, and who would have been more fitting for that job than the Noldor of Valinor as they would safe kinsfolk (Noldor of Beleriand) and friends of old (Sindar). In an afterthought I now ask myself if "tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor" does really refer only to the Vanyar when the Noldor (may be all the Noldor and not only the Noldor of Valinor) suffered a catastrophic defeat at Nan-Tathren?

This would make some sense since we learn from Elrond in The Lord of the Rings; volume 1: The Fellowship of the Ring; book II; chapter The Councile of Elrond:
Quote:
Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed, "Iremember well the splendour of their banners," he said. "It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the host of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair , as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so."
I think that does corospond nicely with:
Quote:
He [Eönwë] summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth.
But it is contradicted in a way by
Quote:
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
Thus if the Elves of Beleriand did assemble under the banner of Eönwë we must have some reason why they did not know much about the battle in the north. A catastrophic defeat in Tathren could be such a reason, and would also account for Elronds recollection of "many defeats, since I can otherwise not see so many defeats in his history (fall of Eregion, sige of Rivendell in the second age).

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
. . . ought, I think, to be:" But the Army of Eönwë's host overthrew them in the battle of the Silent Pools."
Agreed.

I try to develop the text in the way I discussed above:
Forum formatted:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard}, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. ><FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?}[The host of the Noldor camped long in Nan-Tathren.] Indeed sleeping {and dancing here}there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few] made bare escape thence.><E&Æ An other Army of {Tulkas}[Eönwës host] /camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even there{where Tulkas' after fought with Melko's self><E&Æ{Army of Tulkas at the Pools of Twilight ........ and [?many] Gnomes, but} Men fall on them out of {Hisilome}[Hithlum].>E&Æ<{Tulkas overthrows Melko}[But the Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them] in the battle of the Silent Pools. >Then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Plain Text:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. The host of the Noldor camped long in Nan-Tathren. Indeed sleeping there, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by Morgoth from the Ironhills and only a few made bare escape thence. An other Army of Eönwës host camped at the Pools of Twilight, the great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, where goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Lands of Willows, even there Men fall on them out of Hithlum.But the Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them in the battle of the Silent Pools. Then Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 07-29-2004, 02:46 PM   #62
Aiwendil
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Safer it would clearly be to drop all my additions. But I found it very furstarting that I could learn near to nothing about that last battle that was clearly so improtant for the History of the Hitherlands when I have read The Silmarillion.
I certainly sympathize with that frustration. But really there are many, many things we could add but probably shouldn't. My understanding has been that the goal of this project is not to provide as long or as detailed a narrative as possible, but rather to provide a full narrative of everything that can be considered canonical (in the sense of "true within Middle-earth"). Roughly speaking, there are three categories into which ideas can be placed: clearly valid, clearly invalid, and dubious. In a different Revised Silmarillion - one with different fundamental goals, like the fan-fictionalized Silmarillion that jallanite once talked about - the "dubious" ideas could be used. These are things that might be true and even that seem likely to be true. But I think that for this project only the "clearly valid" ideas ought to be accepted.

Of course, I haven't said anything just now that hasn't been said before in other words. And of course, in the end it still all comes down to shades of grey. But I think it's important to note that just because we can invent justification for something, that doesn't mean we ought to use it. Now I'm not saying that the issue of the battle of the Silent Pools is a simple or obvious one. But in the end I think I still come down on the conservative side on this issue. In retaining it we would be completely altering its circumstances.

The liberation of Hithlum is a different matter since it appears in the Annals of Beleriand and no part of it is contradicted later, as far as I know.

Quote:
Thus if the Elves of Beleriand did assemble under the banner of Eönwë we must have some reason why they did not know much about the battle in the north. A catastrophic defeat in Tathren could be such a reason, and would also account for Elronds recollection of "many defeats, since I can otherwise not see so many defeats in his history (fall of Eregion, sige of Rivendell in the second age).
This makes a lot of sense, but again it seems to me to be the kind of speculation that's out of place in our version, either overtly stated or used as an implicit justification for part of the text. I'm still very doubtful about specifying the Noldor.
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Old 07-29-2004, 05:12 PM   #63
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Quote:
Of course, I haven't said anything just now that hasn't been said before in other words. And of course, in the end it still all comes down to shades of grey. But I think it's important to note that just because we can invent justification for something, that doesn't mean we ought to use it. Now I'm not saying that the issue of the battle of the Silent Pools is a simple or obvious one. But in the end I think I still come down on the conservative side on this issue. In retaining it we would be completely altering its circumstances.
Aiwendil, I agree with what you say but I also would like to retain as much as possible from all that Findegil has suggested.
Can you say to us which part would you be willing to incorporate in the chapter from what Findegil has added so that we can continue to work in this chapter?
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Old 07-30-2004, 04:17 PM   #64
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I certainly sympathize with that frustration. But really there are many, many things we could add but probably shouldn't. My understanding has been that the goal of this project is not to provide as long or as detailed a narrative as possible, but rather to provide a full narrative of everything that can be considered canonical (in the sense of "true within Middle-earth"). Roughly speaking, there are three categories into which ideas can be placed: clearly valid, clearly invalid, and dubious. In a different Revised Silmarillion - one with different fundamental goals, like the fan-fictionalized Silmarillion that jallanite once talked about - the "dubious" ideas could be used. These are things that might be true and even that seem likely to be true. But I think that for this project only the "clearly valid" ideas ought to be accepted.
I can only say that I think this is clear put and that I accept it whole heartedly. But to find the boundarys between the categories you put forward is the problem here, saddly as it is the world is not black, grey and white but constant shift from a slightly shadowed white to very dark anthrazit. (To tell you the thruth, the world would be very boring ift were not so. And I like the discussions about the boundary we do here very much.)

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
In retaining it [the Battle of the Pools] we would be completely altering its circumstances.
I do not agree with that, but the Battle of the Pools is in fact were I felt my additions were on very edge of bearability for being to risky. Thus I can accept the Battle at the Pools to be droped. At least it is hinted at by the bitter fights for the passage of Sirion.

That you accepted the liberation of Hithlum is a reliefe and also a little surprise to me. I would have thought it stired more discussion.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
This makes a lot of sense, but again it seems to me to be the kind of speculation that's out of place in our version, either overtly stated or used as an implicit justification for part of the text. I'm still very doubtful about specifying the Noldor.
Does that mean you would accept the defeat at Nan-Tathren, but would not name the Noldor as the source of the Army defeated? That seems to me a workable plot. It will make my assumptions more implicit than explicit, when we accept the Battle of Eglarest as valid.

I found that I had made a mistack in my last editing, since I wanted to take Aiwendils advise to restore the naming of the War for the complte fight and not only for the Battle in the North, but I failed to do so. I will amend that in the text given below:
Forum formatted:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard}, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<Sil77 The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. ><AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. ><FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?}[One of the hosts of the Elves camped long in Nan-Tathren.] Indeed sleeping {and dancing here}there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few of the Elves] made bare escape thence.> But at last<AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
{The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. }There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Plain Text:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. One of the hosts of the Elves camped long in Nan-Tathren. Indeed sleeping there, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by Morgoth from the Ironhills and only a few of the Elves made bare escape thence. But at last Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
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Old 08-01-2004, 10:23 AM   #65
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Can you say to us which part would you be willing to incorporate in the chapter from what Findegil has added so that we can continue to work in this chapter?
I must say, I lean toward eliminating all the Lost Tales material:

Quote:
<FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?}[One of the hosts of the Elves camped long in Nan-Tathren.] Indeed sleeping {and dancing here}there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few of the Elves] made bare escape thence.>
In the long run, it amounts to only a few sentences; I think that when we weigh the benefit of including it against its canonical uncertainty, it is well worth leaving it out.

At the very most, I can see including the battle in Nan-Tathren without explicit reference to the Noldor - but I'm very uncertain about this also, and to be honest I'd rather leave it out also. But if both of you are adamant about retaining it, I could compromise there.

Again, I have no problem at all with the material from AB.

Findegil wrote:
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I like the discussions about the boundary we do here very much.
So do I! I find even the most obscure technical points interesting; I hope I didn't give the impression that I'd rather just sweep away all these arguments.
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Old 08-02-2004, 12:58 AM   #66
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I am not adamant on any addition I did. But I still think we should name the Battle of Nan-Tathren or we should make a refference to defeats that the Elves suffered in the long time of the war. I think that it would be nice iluminat the "long and bitterly they contested the passage" of Sirion. And the only thinks that could do so are the Battle of Nan-Tathren and the Battle of the Pools. Since we agree that the Battle of the Pools is the riskier one, I would think that is even more an argument to use the Battle of Nan-Tathren. But if it even that is found to risky we should at least try to emphasis the period of time that elapsed during the contest of the passage of Sirion. But in the moment I can not see how we could do it.

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Old 08-04-2004, 08:17 AM   #67
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. I think that it would be nice iluminat the "long and bitterly they contested the passage" of Sirion.
I agree - but again, I don't think we should include things just because we think they would be nice. The question is whether it's canonically sound.

Maedhros, what do you think?
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Old 08-08-2004, 09:09 PM   #68
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At the very most, I can see including the battle in Nan-Tathren without explicit reference to the Noldor - but I'm very uncertain about this also, and to be honest I'd rather leave it out also. But if both of you are adamant about retaining it, I could compromise there.
I think that you are right Aiwendil in stating that the Material from the Lost Tales is very risky to use it here.
I'm not even sure as to we should use the battle in Nan-Tathren material myself.

If you or Findegil could propose a way to do so without compromising the canonicity of it, I would be fine with it.

I think that more impartant that this, is to try and finish off the other points like the Gil-Galad position.
Regarding Gil-Galad, I think now that after some months of thinking about it, I think that it would be best if we follow Aiwendil's suggestion.
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Old 08-09-2004, 12:36 PM   #69
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Maedhros:

I also would rather go with eliminating the Nan-Tathren battle completely.

I'm pleased that you now agree with my suggestion on the Gil-Galad issue (though to be honest I had to wade through quite a bit of the early discussion to recall the details of that issue).

I've been thinking about Lindil's concern back then regarding the kingship passing from the house of Fingolfin to the house of Finarfin without much gravity, and I do think I can sympathize with that concern now. But unless I'm mistaken we needn't actually come right out and say that Gil-Galad inherited the High Kingship; he is called a king of the Noldor, but it can be left ambiguous whether this is in fact the kingship of all the Noldor. "King" in the restricted sense still need not conflict with Earendil's "lordship" over the exiles of Gondolin.
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Old 08-09-2004, 04:53 PM   #70
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Okay, so the War of Wrath is settled: we take the additions from Ab but skip that of LT. Thus we have:
Forum formatted:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned {unto him}[now] all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men}, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<Sil77 The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. ><AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,<AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
{The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. }There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
Plain Text:
Quote:
Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned now all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …
What I got out of our discussion about Gil-Galad so fare was that we did take him as the son of Orordreth and send him in the year after the Dagor Bargollach to the havens of the Falas. From there he removed to the isle of Balar with Círdan. We only do mention him in the last kinslaying when he led the remanents of the Lothlim to Balar.

But it seems to me that Aiwendil did know doubt the decision of Gil-Galad being the son of Orordreth. Would it be a solution to change him from a High-King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth only to a King of the Noldor at Sirions Mouth? (That does not mean that he could not become High-King later in the Second Age, when he is clearly the most might King of the Elves in Middle-Earth.)

I tried to re-read the thread to get hold of all the not settle issues, but finishing it I could not remeber them all. (Maybe I was to tired.) At least some of my additions to the voyages of Eärendil have nither been rejecte nor approved finaly.

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Old 08-10-2004, 01:03 PM   #71
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Findegil wrote:
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But it seems to me that Aiwendil did know doubt the decision of Gil-Galad being the son of Orordreth.
I still think that he should be the son of Orodreth, despite whatever doubts I may have.

Quote:
Would it be a solution to change him from a High-King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth only to a King of the Noldor at Sirions Mouth?
I think that if we just call him "King", it can be left safely ambiguous.
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Old 08-11-2004, 08:16 PM   #72
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While reading our original draft of the Eärendil Chapter, I felt that there was something very odd between VE-02 and VE-03:
VE-02
Quote:
<QS30 Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.]<AB2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and> <Elessar Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast><AB2 , and they were healed, and they multiplied> <QS77 ; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them>, and they took to the waves and {to the making of fair ships} <QS77 the building of ships> <AB2 and built a haven>, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores <QS77 of Arvernien>, <AB2 upon the delta amid the waters> under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. <AB2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.>>
VE-03
Quote:
<PG Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and come to Sirion's Mouth, was <QS77 named> King of the Noldor there. He was styled Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.>
I felt that the transition between them is odd. I really liked what Findegil proposed in one of his posts:
VE-02/03
Quote:
Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.] The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast and they were healed, and they multiplied; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them. And<PG Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond {and come}came to Sirion's Mouth{,}and was <QS77 named> King of the Noldor there.>{, and}And they took to the waves and {the making of fair ships}the building of ships and built a haven, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores of Arvernien, upon the delta amid the waters under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. Many fugitives gathered unto them.
This to me feels a lot better. What do the others think? I would still like to use Gil-Galad's appearance but it can be used as proposed by Findegil in a previous chapter.
Regarding Gil-Galad:
As I posted before, I think now that it would be better to follow Aiwendil's advice on his suggestion. As lindil noted, there is a difference between being a King and being a lord, so there is no problem with Eärendil being the lord of the folk of Sirion.
So I would still keep VE-08 and VE-09 as in the original chapters. I have no problems with the additions made by Findegil regarding using the Lost Tales material of Galdor in VE-10, but I take into account the fact that Gil-Galad dwelt with Círdan and came with him to aid the Elves of Sirion during the attacks of the Fëanorians, just like in the QS77.
VE-10
Quote:
And so came in the end to pass the last and cruellest of the slayings of Elf by Elf; and that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath. For the sons of Fëanor came down upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath and destroyed them. Though some of their folk stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion of the hearts of {Elfinesse}[Elvenesse] in those days), yet {Maidros}[Maedhros] and Maglor won the day. Alone they now remained of the sons of Fëanor, for in that battle {Damrod and {Díriel}[Amras] were}[Amrod was] slain; but the folk of Sirion perished or fled away, or departed of need to join the people of {Maidros,}[Maedhros.]/*<FG Egalmoth was the lord of the house of the Heavenly Arch, and got even out of the burning of Gondolin, and dwelt after at the mouth of Sirion, but was slain in {a}[that] dire battle{ there when Melko seized Elwing}.>*\{, who claimed now}[ Maedhros now claimed] the lordship of all the Elves of the Hither Lands{. And yet Maidros}[ and yet he] gained not the Silmaril, for Elwing seeing that all was lost and her children Elros and Elrond taken captive, eluded the host of {Maidros}[Maedhros], and with the Nauglamír upon her breast she cast herself into the sea, and perished as folk thought.<QS77 Too late the ships of Círdan and Gil-galad the High King came hasting to the aid of the Elves of Sirion; and Elwing was gone, and her sons. Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad{,} and<FG Galdor{ was} that valiant {Gnome}[Noldor] who led the men of the Tree in many a charge and yet won out of Gondolin and even the onslaught{ of Melko} upon the dwellers at Sirion's mouth {and went back to the ruins with Earendel.} went with {him}[Círdan] to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive{,}[.]
Regarding the last changes proposed by Findegil in his last post about the additions from the Annals of Beleriand I'm ok with them.
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Old 08-14-2004, 05:18 PM   #73
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After some sleep I tried again to get hold of the stat of the affairs in this thread. But it was very tangled and thus I decided that it is time to recapitulate it here for all. Thus I have copied Pengolods post and work in the results of the further discussion that were done since. I hope I have fetch all the changes we proposed. I only added very few comments, and only in places were I see still some need of discussion.

Quote:
VE-01 <Lay Lo! the flame of fire and fierce hatred
engulfed Gondolin and its glory fell,
its tapering towers and its tall rooftops
were laid all low, and its leaping fountains
made no music more on the mount of Gwareth,
and its whitehewn walls were whispering ash.
{But Wade of the Helsings wearyhearted}
{Tûr} [Tuor] the earthborn was tried in battle
from the wrack and ruin a remnant led
women and children and wailing maidens
and wounded men of the withered folk
down the path unproven that pierced the hillside,
neath {Tumladin} [Tumladen] he led them to the leaguer of hills
that rose up rugged as ranged pinnacles
to the north of the vale. There the narrow way
{of Cristhorn was cloven, the Cleft of Eagles,}
[in the cliffs was cloven, Cirith Thoronath,]
through the midmost mountains. And more is told
in lays and in legend and lore of others
of that weary way of the wandering folk;
how the waifs of Gondolin outwitted {Melko} [Morgoth],
vanished o'er the vale and vanquished the hills,
how Glorfindel the golden in the gap of the Eagles
battled with the Balrog and both were slain:
one like flash of fire from fangéd rock,
one like bolted thunder black was smitten
to the dreadful deep digged by {Thornsir} [Thor’nhir].
Of the thirst and hunger of the {thirty moons} [thwarting mazes]
when they sought for Sirion and were sore bestead
by plague and peril; of the Pools of Twilight
and Land of Willows; when their lamentation
was heard in the halls where the high {Gods} [Lords] sate
veiled in Valinor [past] the Vanished {Isles} [Isle];
{all this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further}
how their lot was lightened, how they laid them down
in long grasses of the Land of Willows.
There sun was softer, [there] the sweet breezes
and whispering winds, there wells of slumber
and the dew enchanted, [drenched then their feet.]
[{all} [All] this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further[.]]>
The changes of the Lay were discussed already. If we will include it was not jet finally decided.

Quote:
VE-02 Thus begins the Lay of Eärendil and further it tells that{Yet} by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.] <AB2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and><UT, Elessar Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast><AB2 , and they were healed, and they multiplied><QS77 ; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them>. And VE-03 <PG {Ereinion} [Rodnor] Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond {and come} [came] to Sirion's Mouth{,} [and] was <QS77 named> a King of the Noldor there.> {, and} . And they took to the waves and {to the making of fair ships} <QS77 the building of ships><AB2 and built a haven>, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores <QS77 of Arvernien>, <AB2 upon the delta amid the waters> under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. <AB2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.>
I think this paragraph was discussed in full length. I only added a back intorduction for the Lay at the begining.

Quote:
VE-05 <TE-B Then began the love of <TE-C Elwing> and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] as girl and boy. <TE-E The mermaids>, the VE-06 <TE-D {Oarni} [Earni] >, <TE-E {come} [came] to {Eärendel} [Eärendil]> and <TE-N(ii) {give} [gave] to {Eärendel} [him] a wonderful shining silver coat that {wets} [wetted] not. They loved {Eärendel} [Eärendil], in Ossë's despite, and {teach} taught him the lore of boat-building and of swimming, as he {plays} [played] with them about the shores of Sirion.> <TE-D {Eärendel} [Eärendil] grew to be the fairest of all Men that were or are,> <TE-N(iii) smaller than most men but nimbled-footed and a swift swimmer (but Voronwë could not swim).> <TE-C And there was great love between {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and Tuor.>>
I moved the additional § one § up.
The end of the Oarni discussion was as fare as I could make it out was to retain them as Earni.

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VE-04 <QS77 And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to> {In Valinor Ulmo spoke unto} the Valar of the need of the Elves, and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth, and win back the Silmarils wherein alone now bloomed the light of the days of bliss when the Two Trees still were shining. Or so it is said, among the {Gnomes} [Noldor], who after had tidings of many things from their kinsfolk the {Quendi} [Vanyar], the Light-elves beloved of Manwë, who ever knew something of the mind of the Lord of the {Gods} [Valar]. But as yet Manwë moved not, and the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell? The Quendi have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon upon their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Fëanor perchance even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the {Gods} [Valar] had made.
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VE-07 In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him <TE-C and Ulmo's conches far out west {over the sea} {call} [called] him louder and louder>, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship {Eärrámë} [Eärámë], Sea-wing, <TE-D with white sails>. <TE-E One evening <TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him> [and] he {calls} [called] {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë]. {Tur} [Tuor and Idril] {bids} [bade] farwell to {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and {bids} [bade] him thrust it off <EL {And} [but] before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: “The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.”> {and with Idril he} [They] set sail <TY [(and some say Voronwë with them)]> into the sunset and the West[.] <TE-E {Eärendel} [Eärendil] {hears} [heard] a great song swelling from the sea as{ Tur's skiff dips over the world's rim.}<TE-NC {Idril and Earendel see} Tuor’s boat {dropping}[dropped] into the twilight{ and a sound of song}.>{His} [Great was his] passion of tears upon the shore.> {, and} [And Tuor] came no more into any tale or song.
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VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot'{ he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles.<LotR Form gnashing of the Narrow Ice where shadow {lies}laid on frozen hills><LT2 - Outline E{He searches for Elwing and is}he was blown far to the South.><LotR{from}From nether heats and burning waste he turned ><LT2 - Outline C{Driven south. Darkregions. }Fire mountains{. Tree-men. Pygmies.}/ he saw and Ents he encountered/><LotR, and roving still on starless waters far astray{ at last} he came to Night of Naught >{Ungoliant'}/. There/ in the South he {slew, and her}[defeated the] darkness{ was destroyed}, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid.<LT2 - Outline E{He escapes}Eärendil escaped eastward{. He goes}/, but he went/ back westward[, while]{ But} Elwing sat sorrowing at home.
According to Aiwendils reluctance to allow Ungoliant here, I did remove her, but the ambiguous since in Eärendil was a Marinerand Sil77 we have darkness mentioned that he defeated I did stick to that.
I removed the Drûgs as update of the Pygmies. I have found in Parma Eldalamberon 14 in The Creatures of the Earth the entry:
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C. Earthlings
ulbandi wood-giants
taulir mountainous-giants
nautar dwarves
pilkir pygmies
Also there is a commentary from the Editors (Patrick Wynne and Christopher Gilson):
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… The placement of the pilkir ‘pygmies’ in section C “Earthlings” rather than section F “Children of Men” indicates that Tolkien’s ‘pygmies’ were probably intended as beings akin to the earth-elements of Paracelsus rather than to the modern Pygmies of Africa and Southeast Asia.
Thus the pygmies are as dwarves and giants a race of sinister folk during the period of the Lost Tales. The pygmies of Paracelsus were creatures that could move through the earth as fishes can through water. But the only save way to deal with them in our case is not to add them to our text.

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VE-09 Eärendil found not Tuor nor Idril, nor came he ever on that journey to the shores of Valinor, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by repelling winds, until in longing for Elwing he turned him homeward toward the East. And his heart bade him haste, for a sudden fear was fallen on him out of dreams, and the winds that before he had striven with might not now bear him back as swift as his desire.
Upon the havens of Sirion new woe had fallen. The dwelling of Elwing there, where still she possessed the Nauglamír and the glorious Silmaril, became known unto the remaining sons of Fëanor, {Maidros} [Maedhros] and Maglor and {Damrod} [Amrod] {and {Díriel} [Amras]}; and they gathered together from their wandering hunting-paths, and messages of friendship and yet stern demand they sent unto Sirion. But Elwing and the {folk of Sirion} [Lothrim] would not yield that jewel which Beren had won and Lúthien had worn, and for which Dior the Fair was slain; and least of all while {Eärendel} [Eärendil] {their lord} was in the sea, for them seemed that in that jewel lay the gift of bliss and healing that had come upon their houses and their ships.
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VE-10 And so came in the end to pass the last and cruellest of the slayings of Elf by Elf; and that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath. For the sons of Fëanor came down upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath and destroyed them. Though some of their folk stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion of the hearts of {Elfinesse} [Elvenesse] in those days), yet {Maidros} [Maedhros] and Maglor won the day. Alone they now remained of the sons of Fëanor, for in that battle {Damrod} [Amrod] {and {Díriel} [Amras]} {were} [was] slain; but the folk of Sirion perished or fled away [led by Gil-Galad], or departed of need to join the people of {Maidros} [Maedhros][.] <FG Egalmoth was [the] {‘}lord of the house of the Heavenly Arch{‘}, and got even out of the burning of Gondolin, and dwelt after at the mouth of Sirion, but was slain in {a} [that] dire battle {there when Melko seized Elwing}.> {, who claimed now} [Maedhros now claimed] the lordship of all the Elves of the Hither Lands{. And yet Maidros} [and yet he] gained not the Silmaril, for Elwing seeing that all was lost and her children Elros and Elrond taken captive, eluded the host of {Maidros} [Maedhros], and with the Nauglamír upon her breast she cast herself into the sea, and perished as folk thought. <QS77 Too late the ships of Círdan and Gil-galad the {High }King came hasting to the aid of the Elves of Sirion; and Elwing was gone, and her sons. Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad{,} and <FG Galdor {'was} that valiant {Gnome} [Noldor] who led the men of the Tree in many a charge and yet won out of Gondolin and even the onslaught {of Melko} upon the dwellers at Sirion's mouth {and went back to the ruins with Eärendel}.> went with {him} [Círdan] to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive{, but Elwing with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea}.>
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VE-11 But Ulmo bore her up and he gave unto her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the shining Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek {Eärendel} [Eärendil] her beloved. And on a time of night {Eärendel} [Eärendil] at the helm saw her come towards him, as a white cloud under moon exceeding swift, as a star over the sea moving in strange course, a pale flame on wings of storm. And it is sung that she fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingelot, in a swoon, nigh unto death for the urgency of her speed, and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] took her unto his bosom. And in the morn with marvelling eyes he beheld his wife in her own form beside him with her hair upon his face; and she slept.
But great was the sorrow of [Eärendil] and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. For Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. Yet [Eärendil] saw now no hope left in the lands of Sirion, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most oft at the prow, and the Silmaril he bound upon his forehead; and ever its light grew greater as they drew unto the West. Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles.<LT2 - isolated Note (xii)The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl was awakened by {Littleheart's gong:}[them]/. He was/ a messenger that was despatched years ago by Turgon and enmeshed in magics. Even now he {cannot }could not leave the Tower and {warns}warned them of the magic. Thus they{ and} escaped their enchantment<. Later the Elves made a song in his memory:
><LT2 - The Happy Mariners (Version of 1940?)

I know a window in a Western tower
that opens on celestial seas,
from wells of dark behind the stars
there ever blows cold a keen unearthly breeze.
It is a white tower builded on the Twilit Isles,
and springing from their everlasting shade
it glimmers like a house of lonely pearl,
where lights forlorn take harbour ere they fade.

Its feet are washed by waves that never rest.
There silent boats go by into the West
all piled and twinkling in the dark
with orient fire in many a hoarded spark
that divers won
in waters of the rumoured Sun.
There sometimes throbs below a silver harp,
touching the heart with sudden music sharp;
or far beneath the mountain high and sheer
the voices of grey sailors echo clear,
afloat among the shadows of the world
in oarless ships and with their canvas furled,
chanting a farewell and a solemn song:
for wide the sea is, and their journey long.

O happy mariners upon a journey far,
beyond the grey islands and past Gondobar,
to those great portals on the final shores
where far away constellate fountains leap,
and dashed against Night's dragon-headed doors
in foam of stars fall sparkling in the deep!
While I look out alone behind the moon
Imprisoned in the white and windy tower,
you bide no moment and await no hour,
but go with solemn song and harpers' tune.

You follow [Eärendil] without rest,
the shining mariner, beyond the West,
who passed the mouth of night and launched his bark
upon the seas of everlasting dark.
Here only long afar through window-pane
I glimpse the flicker of the golden rain
that falls for ever on those outer seas
beyond the country of the shining Trees.

>{; and they}And Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows; and they looked upon the Lonely Isle and there they tarried not; and at the last they cast anchor in the Bay of Elvenhome upon the borders of the world; and the Teleri saw the coming of that ship and were amazed, gazing from afar upon the light of the Silmaril, and it was very great. But [Eärendil], alone of living Men, landed on the immortal shores; and he said to Elwing and to those that were with him, three mariners who had sailed all the seas beside him, and Falathar, Aerandir, and Erellont were their names: Here shall none but myself set foot, lest you fall under the wrath of the {Gods}[Valar] and the doom of death; for it is forbidden. But that peril I will take on myself for the sake of the Two Kindreds.'
And Elwing answered: 'Then shall our paths be sundered for ever. Nay, all thy perils I will take on myself also! ' And she leaped into the white foam and ran towards him; but {Eärendel} [Eärendil] was sorrowful, for he deemed that they would now both die ere many days were past. And there they bade farewell to their companions and were taken from them for ever.
And {Eärendel} [Eärendil] said to Elwing: 'Await me here; for one only may bear the messages that I am charged with'; and he went up alone into the land, and it seemed to him empty and silent. For even as Morgoth and Ungoliantë came in ages past, so now {Eärendel} [Eärendil] had come at a time of festival, and wellnigh all the Elvenfolk were gone to Valinor, or were gathered in the halls of Manwë upon Taniquetil, and few were left to keep watch upon the walls of Tirion.
These watchers rode therefore in great haste to Valmar; and all the bells in Valmar pealed. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] climbed the great green hill of Túna and found it bare; and he entered into the streets of Tirion and they were empty; and his heart was heavy, for he feared that some evil had come even to the Blessed Realm. He walked now in the deserted ways of Tirion, and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was a dust of diamonds, and he shone and glistened as he climbed the long white stairs. And he called aloud in many tongues, both of Elves and Men, but there were none to answer him. Therefore he turned back at last towards the shores, thinking to set sail once more upon {Vingelot} [Vingilot] his ship and abandon his errand, and live for ever upon the sea. But even as he took the shoreward road and turned his face away from the towers of Tirion one stood upon the hill and called to him in a great voice, crying: 'Hail {Eärendel} [Eärendil], radiant star, messenger most fair! Hail thou bearer of light before the Sun and Moon, the looked for that comest unawares, the longed for that comest beyond hope! Hail, splendour of the children of the world, slayer of the dark! Star of the sunset, hail! Hail, herald of the morn!'
And that was the voice of Eönwë herald of Manwë; and he came from Valmar and he summoned {Eärendel} [Eärendil] to come before the {Gods} [Valar]. And {Eärendel} [Eärendil] went to Valinor and to the halls of Valmar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. There before the faces of the undying {Gods} [Valar] he stood, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds. Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon unhappy Men and succour in their need. And his prayers were granted.
Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingwë <BT, just moved a half-sentence, and Ingwion his son {of Ingwë} was their chief.>{; and among} Among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and [Finrafin] son of Finwë was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but Elwing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her father's side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.
And thus it was that Elwing came among the Teleri. {Eärendel} [Eärendil] was long time gone and she became lonely and afraid; and she wandered along the margin of the sea, singing sadly to herself; and so she came to Alqualondë, the Swan-haven, where lay the Telerian fleets; and there the Teleri befriended her. When therefore {Eärendel} [Eärendil] at last returned, seeking her, he found her among them, and they listened to her tales of Thingol and Melian and the Hidden Kingdom, and of Lúthien the fair, and they were filled with pity and wonder.
Now the {Gods} [Valar] took counsel concerning {Eärendel} [Eärendil], and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps; and when they were gathered together Mandos spoke, saying: 'Now he shall surely die, for he has trodden the forbidden shores.' But Ulmo said. "For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he {Eärendel} [Eärendil] Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or Idril's son Turgon's daughter of the Elvenhouse of Finwë? Or being half of either kindred, which half shall die?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally was it forbidden to the Noldor that went wilfully into exile to return hither.'
Then Manwë the Elder King gave judgement and he said: 'To {Eärendel} [Eärendil] I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of {Eärendel} [Eärendil]: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the {Outer} [Hither] Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'
Then {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and Elwing were summoned, and this decree was declared to them. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] said to Elwing: 'Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.' And she chose to be judged among the Firstborn, because of Lúthien, and for the sake of Elwing {Eärendel} [Eärendil] chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father.
The {Gods} [Valar] then sent Eönwë, and he came to the shore where the companions of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] still remained, awaiting tidings. And Eönwë took a boat and set therein the three mariners, and the {Gods} [Valar] drove them away East with a great wind. But they took Vingilot, and they hallowed it, and they bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven. Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] the mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems; and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at eve, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world.
On those journeys Elwing did not go, for she had not the strength to endure the cold and pathless voids, and she loved rather the earth and the sweet winds that blow on sea and hill. Therefore there was built for her a white tower upon the borders of the outer world, in the northern region of the Sundering Seas; and thither all the sea-birds of the earth at times repaired. And it is said that Elwing learned the tongues and lore of birds, who had herself once worn their shape; and she devised wings for herself of white and silver-grey, and they taught her the craft of flight. And at whiles, when {Eärendel} [Eärendil] returning drew near again to earth, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the farsighted among the Elves that dwelt most westerly in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the coming of {Vingelot} [Vingilot] to haven.
Now when first {Vingelot} [Vingilot] was set to sail on the seas of heaven, it rose unlooked-for, glittering and bright; and the folk of earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and they called it Gil-Estel, the Star of high hope. And when this new star arose in the West, {Maidros} [Maedhros] said unto Maglor: 'Surely that is a Silmaril that shineth in the sky?' And Maglor said: If it be verily that Silmaril that we saw cast into the sea that riseth again by the power of the {Gods} [Valar], then let us be glad; for its glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure from all evil.' Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt.
The addition in the first §§ of this overlong section are not finally approved. Especially the Song of the Happy Mariner needs still to be discussed.

To be continued in the next post.

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Old 08-14-2004, 05:21 PM   #74
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Continuation from the post before. See there for some introductional comments.

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VE-12 Yet it is said that Morgoth looked not for the assault that came upon him from the West. So great was his pride become that he deemed that none would ever again come up with open war against him. Moreover he thought that he had for ever estranged the {Gnomes} [Noldor] from the {Gods} [Valar] and from their kin; and that content in their blissful Realm the Valar would heed no more his kingdom in the world without. For to him that is pitiless the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning.
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VE-13 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned {unto him}[now] all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men}, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<Sil77 The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. ><AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,<AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
{The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. }There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air. So sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that Eönwë was driven back; for the coming of the dragons was with a great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire, and their wings were of steel.
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VE-14 Then {Eärendel} [Eärendil] came, shining with white flame, and about {Vingelot} [Vingilot] were gathered all the great birds of heaven, and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. And ere the rising of the sun {Eärendel} [Eärendil] slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and he cast him from the sky, and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim and they were broken and thrown down. Then the sun rose, and the {Children of the Valar} [host of the Valar] prevailed, and all the dragons were destroyed, save two alone; and they fled into the East. Then all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of Eönwë descended into the deeps of the earth. And there Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, [with ]which he had {worn}[been threatened] aforetime; and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. But Eönwë took the two Silmarils which remained and guarded them.
Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to nought; and out of the pits and deep prisons a multitude of thralls came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world all changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more. Then Men, such as had not perished in the ruin of those days, fled far away, and it was long ere any came back over Eredlindon to the places where Beleriand had been.
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VE-15 Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
But Eönwë marched through the western lands summoning the remnant of the Noldor, and the Dark-elves that had not yet looked on Valinor, to join with the thralls released and to depart from Middle-earth. But {Maidros} [Maedhros] and Maglor would not harken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfilment of their oath. For {Maidros} [Maedhros] would have given battle for the Silmarils, were they withheld, even. against the victorious host of Valinor and the might and splendour of the {sons of the Gods} [West]: even though he stood alone in all the world. And he sent a message unto Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor made and Morgoth stole from him.
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VE-16 But Eönwë said that the right to the work of their hands, which Fëanor and his sons formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of the slaying of Dior and the assault upon Elwing. The light of the Silmarils should go now to the {Gods} [Valar], whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must {Maidros} [Maedhros] and Maglor return and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge.
Maglor desired indeed to submit, for his heart was sorrowful, and he said: 'The oath says not that we may not bide our time, and maybe in Valinor all shall be forgiven and forgot, and we shall come into our own in peace.' But {Maidros} [Maedhros] said that, if once they returned and the favour of the {Gods} [Valar] were withheld from them, then their oath would still remain, but its fulfilment be beyond all hope. 'And who can tell to what dreadful doom we shall come, if we disobey the Powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring war again into their holy realm? ' And Maglor said: 'Yet if Manwë and Varda themselves deny the fulfilment of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?' And {Maidros} [Maedhros] answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the circles of the World? And by Him we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?' 'If none can release us,' said Maglor, 'then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.' Yet he yielded to the will of {Maidros} [Maedhros], and they took counsel together how they should lay hands on the Silmarils.
And so it came to pass that they came in disguise to the camps of Eönwë, and at night they crept in to the places where the Silmarils were guarded, and they slew the guards, and laid hands upon the jewels; and then, since all the camp was roused against them, they prepared to die, defending themselves until the last. But Eönwë restrained his folk, and the brethren departed unfought, and fled far away. Each took a single Silmaril, for they said: Since one is lost to us, and but two remain, and two brethren, so is it plain that fate would have us share the heirlooms of our father.'
But the jewel burned the hand of {Maidros} [Maedhros] in pain unbearable (and he had but one hand, as has before been told); and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of Earth.
And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores singing in pain and regret beside the waves. For Maglor was the mightiest of the singers of old [save Daeron], but he came never back among the people of the Elves. And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.
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VE-17 Of the Passing of the Elves
In those days there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of ancient Beleriand. Thence in many a fleet the survivors of the {Gnomes} [Noldor], and of the companies of the Dark-elves of Doriath and Ossiriand, set sail into the West and came never again into the lands of weeping and of war. But the Vanyar the Light-elves, marched back beneath the banners of their king, and they were borne in triumph unto Valinor. Yet their joy in victory was diminished, for they returned without the Silmarils and the light before the Sun and Moon, and they knew that those jewels could not be found or brought together again until the world was broken , and re-made anew.
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VE-18 And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all [that went west] were free to do who willed; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
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VE-19 Yet not all the Eldalië were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles and in the Land of Leithien. And among these were Maglor, as hath been told; and with him for a while was Elrond Halfelven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be among the Elf-kindred; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men. And from these brethren alone the blood of the Firstborn and the seed divine of Valinor have come among Mankind: for they were the sons of Elwing, Dior's daughter, Lúthien's son, child of Thingol and Melian; and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] their sire was Idril's son Celebrindal, the fair maid of Gondolin. But ever as the ages drew on and the Elf-folk faded upon earth, they would set sail at eve from the western shores of this world, as still they do, until now there linger few anywhere of their lonely companies.
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VE-20 This was the doom of the {Gods} [Valar], when Eönwë {and the sons of the Valar} [and his host] returned to Valmar and told of all the things that had been done. Thereafter the Hither Lands of Middle-earth should be for Mankind, the younger children of the world; but to the Elves, the Firstborn, alone should the gateways of the West stand ever open. And if the Elves would not come thither and tarried in the lands of Men, then they should slowly fade and fail. This is the most grievous of the fruits of the lies and works that Morgoth wrought, that the Eldalië should be sundered and estranged from Men. For a while other evils that he had devised or nurtured lived on, although he himself was taken away; and Orcs and Dragons, breeding again in dark places, became names of terror, and did evil deeds, as in sundry regions they still do; but ere the End all shall perish. But Morgoth himself the {Gods} [Valar] thrust through the Door of Night into the Timeless Void, beyond the Walls of the World; and a guard is set for ever on that door, and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky.
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that doth not die and cannot by the {Gods} [Valar] be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. Some say also that Morgoth himself has at times crept back, secretly as a cloud that cannot be seen, and yet is venomous, surmounting the Walls, and visiting the world to encourage his servants and set on foot evil when all seems fair. But others say that this is the black shadow of Sauron, whom the {Gnomes} [Sindar] named Gorthaur, who served Morgoth long ago and came with him into the world, and was the greatest and most evil of his underlings; and Sauron fled from the Great Battle and escaped, and he dwelt in dark places and perverted Men to his dreadful allegiance and his foul worship.
I removed the MT material due to the reluctance of Aiwendil to allow it to be added.

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VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementári; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the {sons of the Valar} [Ainur].}
The discussion about the second Prophecy was not taken further, so I can see no reason to skip it. But it could be that it needed some work in detail.

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VE-22 & VE-23 Here endeth The Silmarillion: which is drawn out in brief from those songs and histories which are yet sung and told by the fading Elves[.] {and (more clearly and fully) by the vanished Elves that dwell now upon the Lonely Isle, {Tol Eressëa,} whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age when some man of {Eärendel} [Eärendil]'s race hath passed beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps upon the quays of {Avallon} [Tol Eressëa], and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of whom was {Ereol} [Eriol] one, that men named Ælfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands.}
That’s it.
I hope you found that a bit helpful.

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Old 08-14-2004, 08:59 PM   #75
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VE-02 Thus begins the Lay of Eärendil and further it tells that{Yet} by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.] <AB2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and><UT, Elessar Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast><AB2 , and they were healed, and they multiplied><QS77 ; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them>. And VE-03 <PG {Ereinion} [Rodnor] Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond {and come} [came] to Sirion's Mouth{,} [and] was <QS77 named> a King of the Noldor there.> {, and} . And they took to the waves and {to the making of fair ships} <QS77 the building of ships><AB2 and built a haven>, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores <QS77 of Arvernien>, <AB2 upon the delta amid the waters> under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. <AB2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.>
I'm not sure that the addition of:
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Thus begins the Lay of Eärendil and further it tells that
is necessary. Wasn't it established that Erenion was a valid name for Gil-Galad?

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VE-04 <QS77 And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to> {In Valinor Ulmo spoke unto} the Valar of the need of the Elves, and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth, and win back the Silmarils wherein alone now bloomed the light of the days of bliss when the Two Trees still were shining. Or so it is said, among the {Gnomes} [Noldor], who after had tidings of many things from their kinsfolk the {Quendi} [Vanyar], the Light-elves beloved of Manwë, who ever knew something of the mind of the Lord of the {Gods} [Valar]. But as yet Manwë moved not, and the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell? The Quendi have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon upon their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Fëanor perchance even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the {Gods} [Valar] had made.
Shouldn't:
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The Quendi have said that the hour was not yet come
Quendi be replaced by Vanyar here too?

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VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot'{ he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles.<LotR Form gnashing of the Narrow Ice where shadow {lies}laid on frozen hills><LT2 - Outline E{He searches for Elwing and is}he was blown far to the South.><LotR{from}From nether heats and burning waste he turned ><LT2 - Outline C{Driven south. Darkregions. }Fire mountains{. Tree-men. Pygmies.}/ he saw and Ents he encountered/><LotR, and roving still on starless waters far astray{ at last} he came to Night of Naught >{Ungoliant'}/. There/ in the South he {slew, and her}[defeated the] darkness{ was destroyed}, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid.<LT2 - Outline E{He escapes}Eärendil escaped eastward{. He goes}/, but he went/ back westward[, while]{ But} Elwing sat sorrowing at home.
I'm not at all happy with these additions of LoTR nor the LT2 outlines. It seems to me very odd.

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VE-09 Eärendil found not Tuor nor Idril, nor came he ever on that journey to the shores of Valinor, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by repelling winds, until in longing for Elwing he turned him homeward toward the East. And his heart bade him haste, for a sudden fear was fallen on him out of dreams, and the winds that before he had striven with might not now bear him back as swift as his desire.
Upon the havens of Sirion new woe had fallen. The dwelling of Elwing there, where still she possessed the Nauglamír and the glorious Silmaril, became known unto the remaining sons of Fëanor, {Maidros} [Maedhros] and Maglor and {Damrod} [Amrod] {and {Díriel} [Amras]}; and they gathered together from their wandering hunting-paths, and messages of friendship and yet stern demand they sent unto Sirion. But Elwing and the {folk of Sirion} [Lothrim] would not yield that jewel which Beren had won and Lúthien had worn, and for which Dior the Fair was slain; and least of all while {Eärendel} [Eärendil] {their lord} was in the sea, for them seemed that in that jewel lay the gift of bliss and healing that had come upon their houses and their ships.
I don't see the necessity of the change folk of Sirion to Lothrim.

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VE-11 But Ulmo bore her up and he gave unto her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the shining Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek {Eärendel} [Eärendil] her beloved. And on a time of night {Eärendel} [Eärendil] at the helm saw her come towards him, as a white cloud under moon exceeding swift, as a star over the sea moving in strange course, a pale flame on wings of storm. And it is sung that she fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingelot, in a swoon, nigh unto death for the urgency of her speed, and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] took her unto his bosom. And in the morn with marvelling eyes he beheld his wife in her own form beside him with her hair upon his face; and she slept.
But great was the sorrow of [Eärendil] and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. For Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. Yet [Eärendil] saw now no hope left in the lands of Sirion, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most oft at the prow, and the Silmaril he bound upon his forehead; and ever its light grew greater as they drew unto the West. Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles.<LT2 - isolated Note (xii)The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl was awakened by {Littleheart's gong:}[them]/. He was/ a messenger that was despatched years ago by Turgon and enmeshed in magics. Even now he {cannot }could not leave the Tower and {warns}warned them of the magic. Thus they{ and} escaped their enchantment<. Later the Elves made a song in his memory:
><LT2 - The Happy Mariners (Version of 1940?)
The addition of the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl does not work for me.

Quote:
VE-18 And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all [that went west] were free to do who willed; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
I'm not at all sold on the fact that this statement can be taken that there were some Ñoldor like Galadriel who were not allowed to return West.

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VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementári; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the {sons of the Valar} [Ainur].}
Sholdn't:
Quote:
when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor
the Gods be Valar?
Concerning wether or not to include the Prophecy, I would now would include it, based on the fact that our Simarillion is not necessarily an elf-made document but man made (down from Númenórë) and these are just speculations that they had, I mean flat earth!

I have a question for Findegil, did you change the parragraph order as CT did in the Sil 77?

I was ok with everything else.
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:52 AM   #76
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure that the addition of:
Quote:
Thus begins the Lay of Eärendil and further it tells that

is necessary.
I agree. Not that it does any obvious harm, but it's better not to make additions than to make them, all else being equal.

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Wasn't it established that Erenion was a valid name for Gil-Galad?
Yes, as I recall. It should be "Ereinion" throughout rather than "Rodnor".

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Quendi be replaced by Vanyar here too?
Well - one could say that it was not just the Vanyar but also the Noldor that remained in Tirion.

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I'm not at all happy with these additions of LoTR nor the LT2 outlines. It seems to me very odd.
I must say I'm not in favor of the LotR additions either. I would prefer to avoid taking text directly from LotR or The Hobbit. I can see more of a justification for the LT additions, since this is potentially valid material that otherwise is completely excluded and "lost". But the more I think about it the more it seems to me that the best solution for our purposes may be to leave his voyages completely ambiguous as in the '77.

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don't see the necessity of the change folk of Sirion to Lothrim.
Nor I.

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The addition of the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl does not work for me.
Do you mean the whole incident or just the way it is edited into the text at the moment?

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I'm not at all sold on the fact that this statement can be taken that there were some Ñoldor like Galadriel who were not allowed to return West.
I think our text here is safely ambiguous. It does not say whether or not there were Elves that were not allowed to return west. It merely says that of those that did return west, all were allowed to go back to Valinor.

Quote:
the Gods be Valar?
Yes.

The rest looks good, as far as I can see right now. I'll look over it again more closely when I get a chance.
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Old 08-16-2004, 04:44 AM   #77
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VE-02: If you both see no need for the addition of an editoroal brigde here, we will skip it.
I do not remeber the fact that we establishe Ereinion as a valid name. But that is clearly a lack of my memory. we will take Ereinion than instate of Rodnor.

VE-04: Since we changed the first Quendi to Vanyar as is suggested by the accompaying description, we should also change the second occurend in the § to Vanyar.

VE-08: Posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
I must say I'm not in favor of the LotR additions either. I would prefer to avoid taking text directly from LotR or The Hobbit. I can see more of a justification for the LT additions, since this is potentially valid material that otherwise is completely excluded and "lost". But the more I think about it the more it seems to me that the best solution for our purposes may be to leave his voyages completely ambiguous as in the '77.
Not what I whish for, but if that is what you both think must be done I am okay with it. Thus we get this:
Quote:
VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot'{ he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles. {Ungoliant in the South he slew, and her darkness was destroyed, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid.} But Ewing sat sorrowing at home.
VE-09: Posted by Maedhros:
Quote:
I don't see the necessity of the change folk of Sirion to Lothrim.
I think, that change was an artefact of our editing concerning Gil-galad being the king while Eärednil was the Lord of the poeple at Sirions mouth. Since we solved that otherwise, there is clearly no need for that change left now.

VE-11: Posted by Mardhros:
Quote:
The addition of The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl does not work for me.
Like Aiwendil I would also like to know if that is meant for the complety incident of the encounter with the Sleeper or only for the poem.

VE-18: Posted by Maedhros:
Quote:
I'm not at all sold on the fact that this statement can be taken that there were some Ñoldor like Galadriel who were not allowed to return West.
The bann on Galadriel is clearly part of the core cannon of texts published by JRR Tolkien himself. But the question is if we must address it here. And Aiwendil and I think we must not. We think that our text is ambigous enough to allow the bann but it we must not say there was such a thing.

VE-21: There are porbably more things to do in the second prophecy than just to change Gods to Valar put that at least we must change clearly.
Quote:
VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementári; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world.{ In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.}
I removed the last two sentences because in the Manuskript JRR Tolkien marked them with an large X.

Posted by Maedhros:
Quote:
I have a question for Findegil, did you change the parragraph order as CT did in the Sil 77?
No, I did stick to the § order in Q30. I appologies that I did not mention that point. Petty Dwarfs suggestion has some wight and we should dicuss the movment of the §.
I myself would not move it. It is a bit atricifical to have the Teleri listen to Elwing and then recount her fist metting with them. But I find it even more strange to have Eärendil go on his first heavenly juorney and stir the hopes in Middle-Earth before the Host of the Valar even begins to prepare as it is in Sil77. Some other § arangements might be posible were we would aviod both, but I don't think were are going to play around with Tolkiens writtings in that way.

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Old 08-16-2004, 10:11 AM   #78
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VE-04: Okay; I forgot we had changed it to Vanyar in the first instance.

VE-08: I'm still tempted to use the Lost Tales fragments; I could go either way on that.

VE-21: The Second Prophecy of Mandos is still a major unresolved issue. Maybe we should revive the old thread we had on it.
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Old 08-16-2004, 10:35 AM   #79
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VE-11
Yet [Eärendil] saw now no hope left in the lands of Sirion, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most oft at the prow, and the Silmaril he bound upon his forehead; and ever its light grew greater as they drew unto the West. Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles.<LT2 - isolated Note (xii)The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl was awakened by {Littleheart's gong:}[them]/. He was/ a messenger that was despatched years ago by Turgon and enmeshed in magics. Even now he {cannot }could not leave the Tower and {warns}warned them of the magic. Thus they{ and} escaped their enchantment<. Later the Elves made a song in his memory:><LT2 - The Happy Mariners (Version of 1940?)
To me a messenger that was dispatched by Turgon could not reach the Enchanted Isles because of the Doom of the Valar. That element for me disqualifies him, so I would be against including him in here. Eärendil could only reach the West because he had the Silmaril and Tuor and Idril had the blessing of Ulmo.

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VE-04: Okay; I forgot we had changed it to Vanyar in the first instance.
We all agree on that then.

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VE-08: I'm still tempted to use the Lost Tales fragments; I could go either way on that.
Wow, if you can go either way then I would propose to use the fragments.

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No, I did stick to the § order in Q30. I appologies that I did not mention that point. Petty Dwarfs suggestion has some wight and we should dicuss the movment of the §.
I myself would not move it. It is a bit atricifical to have the Teleri listen to Elwing and then recount her fist metting with them. But I find it even more strange to have Eärendil go on his first heavenly juorney and stir the hopes in Middle-Earth before the Host of the Valar even begins to prepare as it is in Sil77. Some other § arangements might be posible were we would aviod both, but I don't think were are going to play around with Tolkiens writtings in that way.
It seems to me that if both you and Aiwendil prefer to keep the order of the paragrahps as JRRT did, then I'm ok with that.

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VE-21: The Second Prophecy of Mandos is still a major unresolved issue. Maybe we should revive the old thread we had on it.
Does that means that the Prophecy is the only unresolved issue left in this chapter or are there others than I'm not aware of?
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Old 08-17-2004, 04:34 AM   #80
Findegil
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VE-04 Okay, if I have at least halfe a vote from Aiwendil to work on, I will try to give a better editing of that § with additions only from LT2. And since I felt that it help to get some points in the War of Wrath discussion i will provide forum formated and plain text.
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VE-08<PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot{ he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles. <LT2 - Outline E He {searches for Elwing and is} was blown far to the South.> {Ungoliant'}/There/ in the South he {slew, and her}[defeated the] darkness{ was destroyed}, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid. <LT2 - Outline E He {escapes}escaped eastward. ><LT2 - Outline C Fire mountains{. Tree-men. Pygmies.}/ he saw and Ents he encountered./> But <LT2 - Outline E {He goes}/ he went/ back westward{.}>, while Elwing sat sorrowing at home.
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VE-08 After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built Vingilot, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles. He was blown far to the South. There in the South he defeated the darkness, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid. He escaped eastward. Fire mountains he saw and Ents he encountered. But he went back westward, while Elwing sat sorrowing at home.
VE-11: Posted by Maedhros:
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To me a messenger that was dispatched by Turgon could not reach the Enchanted Isles because of the Doom of the Valar. That element for me disqualifies him, so I would be against including him in here. Eärendil could only reach the West because he had the Silmaril and Tuor and Idril had the blessing of Ulmo.
Aren't the enchanted Ilse exactly one of the ways by which the cruse of the Noldor worked? And to what other isles did Vornwë refer here (UT):
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But the Great Sea is terrible, Tuor son of Huor; and it hates the Noldor, for it works the Doom of the Valar. Worse things it holds than to sink into the abyss and so perish: loathing, and loneliness, and madness; terror of wind and tumult, and silence and shadows where all hope is lost and all living shapes pass away. And many shores evil and strange it washes, and many islands of danger and fear infest it. I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour seven years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South, but never to the West. For that is shut against us.
VE-21: Posted by Aiwendil:
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The Second Prophecy of Mandos is still a major unresolved issue. Maybe we should revive the old thread we had on it.
It seems that this is the last great issue in this chapter. I will look for that thread and bring it up to attention again.

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