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Old 10-27-2003, 03:14 PM   #1
Findegil
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Sting Ruin of Doriath - Húrin in Nargothrond

I will start this text with a nearly full text, because we have no good basis-text and must compile the text of many difrent sources.
The Basis text I adopted is in this section The Tale of Turambar.
Since the text is a continuation of The Wanderings of Húrin I will start with the last sentence of that text. I myselfe have numbered the paragarphs in continuation with that text (§xyz), but for a beter comaprison to Meadhros text I toke up his paragraph numbers. When ever there are paragraphs §XYa, §XYb etc. you should expact some diverence from Maedhros version to this one. But they will be mentioned in the discussion.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will bementioned)
Bold Text source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for garmatical reason
/ / = outline expansion


<WH §266 But Húrin stood silent, and when the company departed, bearing away the body of Manthor, he did not turn. He looked ever west till the sun fell into dark cloud and the light failed; and then he went down alone towards the Hauð-en-Elleth.>

§1a (§267) RD-HN-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Avranc were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Avranc to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>

§1b (§268) RD-HN-02 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under Avranc and made ready to depart, and they joined Húrin.>

§1c (§269) RD-HN-03 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}had now been venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. /And he /was angered{Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.

§1d (§270) But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They passed into the woods <RD-HN-04 editorial edition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>

§1e (§271) RD-HN-05 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] {they choose}was chosen for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}wanted. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

§1f (§272) RD-HN-06 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of {the}their wanderings {of Húrin} there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last {late in this year} to Nargothrond. It is said that {he}Húrin had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>

§2 Meadhros §2 I did not adopt

From here on the main text is taken from The Tale of Turambar and the Foalókë

§3a (§273) RD-HN-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond, and crept within the ruined halls; and he took possession of them, and sat there fingering the gold and the gems, letting them run ever through his hands>, singing black songs of enchantment to himself. But none had come nigh till then to despoil him, for the terror of the drake lived longer than he, and none had ventured thither again for dread of the very spirit of {Glorund}[Glaurung] the worm.

§3b (§274) Now therefore when {those Elves}[Húrin and his following] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the {hills}[woods]?’

§3c (§275) RD-HN-08 <Sil77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'

§4a (§276) Then the Dwarf answered: 'RD-HN-09{I am Mîm; and before}[Before] the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkizdîn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'>

§4b (§277) But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: ‘We come to take what is not thine.’

§4c (§287) RD-HN-09 Then said that dwarf{, and his name was Mîm}: ‘O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to {the}[my] words{ of Mîm the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, {Mîm the dwarf,} and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.’

§4d (§279) Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses.

§5 (§280) Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.'

§6 (§281) But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed. <RD-HN-10 Sil77 {‘Then}[‘It is just that] you shall enjoy your inheritance no longer,' said Húrin; 'for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband, and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>

§7 (§282) RD-HN-11<Sil77 Then {he} they entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay{; but it is told that when Húrin came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but one thing only}.>

§8 (§283) Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’

§9a (§284) Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though {Úrin}[Húrin]'s company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and some was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.

§9b (§285)RD-HN-12<QS36 And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. {Each one}[Many] of Húrins company died or {was}were slain in quarrels upon the road[.]>

§10a (§286) Yet in the end that laden host came to the bridge {before the doors} RD-HN-13 <editorial addition of Sirion>, and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts[.’]{,’ and}And when] this was done{.}, RD-HN-14 <Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>

§10b (§287) Then {Úrin}[Húrin] let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and {Tinwelint}[Thingol] greeted {Úrin}[Húrin] with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he said: ‘Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words - but say only, where is {Mavwin}[Morwen] my wife, and knowest thou what death did Nienor{i} my daughter die?’ RD-HN-14{And Tinwelint said that he knew not.}

§11 (§288) RD-HN-15 <Sil77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn[.]> Then did Úrin fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Nay, had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against {Glorund}[Glaurung] the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], sweetly on my gifts, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’

§12 (§289) Then did men cast down that treasury at the king's feet, uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-HN-16<editorial addition some> were little pleased. ‘Behold the hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung],’ said {Úrin}[Húrin], ‘bought by the death of Nienor{i} with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.’

§13 §(290) RD-HN-17 <QS36 'Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men;} [the treasure of Felagund] and I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath!'>

§14 taken out

§15 (§291) Then were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me? Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me - and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cuiviénen] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O {Úrin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee’ - but he forebore to slay or to bind {Úrin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.

§16 §292) Then {Úrin}[Húrin] departed, but would not touch the gold, and RD-HN-17 {stricken in years he reached Hisilome and died among Men, but his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.}<The Tale of the Nauglafring{'Behold then,' said Ailios, '}in great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that Mîm the fatherless had woven about that hoard that, even as it lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.>


Puh, that's a big part of full text. But the next section will be shorter.

The discussion will follow in my next post.

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Findegil

Just emanded some typos.
[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ]

Edited the format

Last edited by Findegil; 07-19-2004 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 10-27-2003, 04:18 PM   #2
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Sting

So know some comments. Where Maedhros Version and my own are parallel in detail I will not coment on it:

§1a-f Maedhros had only my §1f but since I think we need as much narative as we can get to make the break bearable between Wh and our text I toke what ever I could get.
At the end of §1a I toke "clearings" and "confederation" out of the discribtion of the wood-man.
In §1e I made Asgon and Húrin the speakers, because that seemed must natural for me.
At the end of §1f we must take out Brethil as a land were Húrin would not jet go since he is coming out of it.

§2 Maedhros toke that one out of the Sil77 (it started with Now Húrin crossed over Taeglin .... But my paragraphs §1a-d had already told the contend.

§3a-c Maedhros toke the complet paragraph from Sil77. But I enlarged the text with TT.

$4a-e; §5; §6a-b Maedhros toke this §§ again directly out of the Sil77. He only added Mîm's cruse at the and. In my version Mîm tries to conceal his name. He only revales it at his end after Húrin had dealed the deathblow (§6). In that way we have a posibility of a longer conversation. I thought it a bit unprobable for Mîm to give the treasure away even for his life, when you consider the "gold"-roots in his sack from which he would not part even for the possible death of his son's.

§7 I toke §7 after I saw it fit very well in Maedhros version. I my sefl at a lose to take anything out of the Sil77 with out dear need. And that I could not see here.

§10a Equally to the Dwarves Húrin cold not pass so easily the Girdle of Melian (or he should not). So I toke the secret bridge over Sirion as a simple device easy to work in. Mablung is heading to this guarded bridge when he returns with Nienor from Nargothrond.

§10b Since the change of the bridge, I wanted a paragraph change here. At the and of the § I toke out the last sentence since at least the death of Nienor was known to Thingol by the report of Mablung.

§11 I moved Thingols enduring Húrins scorn to the begining of the §. Because Húrin is already scorning from the begining.

§14; §15 Maedhros toke her the §§ beginning with Then Thingol looked upon the great treasure ... out of the Sil77. But for me that was much to soft. Thingol is changed but he is not as week as that. If we take out Húrins healing by Melian, I can't find any reason wy Thingol should not be worth and send Húrin out with bitter words. And we had never seen Melian dealing with guest. Ever it is Thingol that speaks she gives only counsel.

$16 Since I will follow Aiwendils device to let the Outlaws fate unclear I have moved the death of Húrin further down. See next section.

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Old 10-28-2003, 03:14 PM   #3
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Sting

Findegil, I will have to look closer at your revisions, but the draft that I had posted is my first one, I have been working on a second one that has some differences to the one that posted here.
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Old 10-28-2003, 04:09 PM   #4
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It seems we are inventing the wheel each on our owne. That's not realy good. I will post my version at once in the privat forum to prevent further paralell working.

By the way: Thanks for the offer of the text, but I have already copied it out of the forum.

The reworking for the open forum is need very much. but it will take some time.

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Old 10-28-2003, 08:39 PM   #5
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Question

Actually Findegil, my offer was the second draft which is not posted in the Private Forum yet.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:48 AM   #6
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Okay this is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.

Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.

Quote:
<WH §266 But Húrin stood silent, and when the company departed, bearing away the body of Manthor, he did not turn. He looked ever west till the sun fell into dark cloud and the light failed; and then he went down alone towards the Hauð-en-Elleth.>

§1a (§267) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Avranc were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Avranc to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>

§1b (§268) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of {Glomund}[Glaurung] and his very memory.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under Avranc and made ready to depart, <WH N54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}had now been venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}[was] glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.

§1d (§269) WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>

§1e (§270) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn they choose }[Asgon] was chosen for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}wanted. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his man] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last {late in this year} to Nargothrond. It is said … More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew<editorial addition same of> what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

§3a (§272) {But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there.} RD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves … after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} RD-EX-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond>. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells.

§3b (§273) RD-EX-08<TT Now therefore when {those Elves}[Húrin and his following] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>

§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <Sil77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'

§4a (§275) Sil77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and … my people.'>

§4b (§276) RD-EX-10 <TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: ‘We come to take what is not thine.’

§4c (§277) TT Then said that dwarf{, and his name was Mîm}: ‘O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not … it to myself.’

§4d (§278) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses{.}> RD-EX-11 {But the folk of Mîm were few}, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold. RD-SL-04 <TT {But Mîm}And dying Mîm said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men … his folk laughed.>

§8 (§279) RD-SL-05{And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … empty woods.’

§9 (§280) TT Now his heart was … finders for ever.>

§10a (§281) RD-SL-06 <TT Yet in the end that laden host came to the {bridge before the doors}[border of Doriath], and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts{,’ and} .’ And when this was done{.}>, < Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>

§10b (§282) RD-EX-12 <TTThen {Úrin}[Húrin] let bear all … did {Nienori}[Nienor] my daughter die?’>

§11 (§283) RD-EX-13 <Sil77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn.> RD-EX-14 <TTThen did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, and … is all your heart contains.’>

§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TTuncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. ‘Behold the hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung],’ said {Úrin}[Húrin], ‘bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.’>

§13 §(285) RD-EX-17 <Sil77 And{and} he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the treasure of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men; and I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath!'>

§15 (§286) Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he {bore}had borne with Húrin; but now when Húrin scorned him again, RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, … ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.>

§16 (§287) RD-SL-07 {and[ Húrin] wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth;}<Sil77 {then he}Then Húrin turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.>
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:16 PM   #7
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I have some notes regarding the following:
Quote:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his man] there is no tale told,
It should be:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told

<editorial addition same of> what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>
should be:
<editorial addition some of> what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

Just minor points really.
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Old 12-10-2004, 11:21 AM   #8
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Avranc should be changed to Daruin per WH note 55

RD-EX-02

Quote:
<WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}had now been venturing back into the land to seek him.
I think perhaps that ". . . and was now venturing back . . ." would sound more natural.

RD-EX-04

Quote:
<WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn they choose }[Asgon] was chosen for captain but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}wanted.
We could stick closer to the text with:

Quote:
{Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose} chose for captain but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed.
RD-EX-05

Quote:
<WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin [and his man] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last {late in this year} to Nargothrond.
Maedhros has noted the mistake "man" for "men".

I understand the deletion of "late in this year" because we are taking it out of the context of the annals - but couldn't we retain it by making it "late in the year"? Thus:

Quote:
<WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin [and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this} the year to Nargothrond.
RD-EX-06
Quote:
and Húrin knew <editorial addition same of> what had befallen there.
Clearly it should be "some of". But I don't think I understand the need for this editorial addition.

RD-EX-08

Quote:
<TT Now therefore when {those Elves}[Húrin and his following] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?'>
We could simply change Elves to Men to stay closer to the text:

Quote:
<TT Now therefore when those {Elves} [Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?'>
Why is "Galweg" changed to "Guilin"? Galweg was Failivrin's father, not Gwindor's. Of course now her father is Orodreth; I would replace Galweg with Orodreth.

RD-EX-08 to EX-10:

I don't think the sequence of dialogue quite works. Hurin's "we come to take what is not thine" seems like it ought to follow directly from Mim's "what will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?" Perhaps we could merge RD-EX-09 with RD-EX-10:

Quote:
<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: ‘We come to take what is not thine. <QS77 Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'

§4a (§275) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkizdîn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.> O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'>
Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.

RD-EX-11
Quote:
{But the folk of Mîm were few}, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
I think it would serve the sense better to start a new sentence and to use "but":

Quote:
But {the folk of Mîm were few, and} the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
I still go back and forth, to be honest (and this is a storyline issue), on whether GA represents a reversion to the story that Hurin killed Mim. But it's a minor point, and one that could easily be changed if we change our minds.

RD-EX-17
Hurin's words here ("Receive thou thy fee . . .") were intended to be what he said immediately upon revealing the treasure. It doesn't work to first use his words from TT and to simply follow them with the equivalent words form QS77. Also the words "where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him . . ." don't seem to work when the treasure is no longer just the Nauglamir (I think these are Christopher's invention, though I could be wrong). Perhaps:

Quote:
§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TTuncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77 ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>
I altered "treasure" to "hoard" to match more closely the equivalent words in TT.

Also, I don't understand the need for the change "name" > "fame".


Quote:
§15 (§286) Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he {bore}had bornewith Húrin; but now when Húrin scorned him again,
This piece is a bit problematic. I see the purpose of your changes: to alter it so that it is describing, in the pluperfect, what has just passed. But if it does so and nothing more I see no reason to keep it. Why not just:

Quote:
§15 (§286) {Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Húrin; but Húrin scorned him}, RD-EX-18 <TTThen were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, . . .
Other than that, everything in this section looks good to me.
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Old 12-11-2004, 09:07 AM   #9
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RD-EX-05 "late in this year" -> " " or "late in the year"
I did the change the way it was marked following the plot synopsis to the Narn given in WH were Húrin reached Nargothrond in 502. But since we used the possibly later TY as the ruling source in all other querstions we should probably stick to it here.

RD-EX-06 addition of "some of"
Since we had agreed to let Húrin been reluctance to the killing of Mîm by his men I sought it necessary to make Húrin not all knowing in that case. But I might have over done it here since it might not be expected that Húrin did know all details from what the original text says. But see further down.

RD-EX-08 "Galweg" -> "Guilin" or "Orodreth"
My vault, sorry I thought he was the father of Flinding and never checked it. My apologise to Maédhros how had it right from the start.

RD-EX-09 & RD-EX-10
Quote:
Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.
We have no source for the Sil77 dialog. So you might be right to use TT exclusively. But the claim of Mîm that his people had build the halls are based on Quendi and Eldar and are nowwhere else given if we do not introduce it (here and/or in other places). In addition it would be a shame to lose it here. So I think we should use your suggestion. In addition Nulukkizdin must be changed to Nulukhizdīn following The Later Quenta Silmarillion chapter 10: The Siege of Angband; note to §101.

RD-EX-11
Quote:
But {the folk of Mîm were few, and} the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
Agreed, but ...
RD-SL-03:
Quote:
I still go back and forth, to be honest (and this is a storyline issue), on whether GA represents a reversion to the story that Hurin killed Mim. But it's a minor point, and one that could easily be changed if we change our minds.
I am also unsure about that. While searching for my reason for change RD-EX-05 discussed above I found the following WH plot synopsis for the Narn:
Quote:
502.
Tuor weds Idril daughter of Turgon.
Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm the petty-dwarf.
He and his men carry off the treasure of Glaurung and bring it to Doriath. Hurin is admitted in pity.
Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?

RD-EX-17 Your suggested changes read better then mine. But I would hold the introduction of Húrins words. Leading to:
Quote:
§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77 And Húrin{and he} reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>
"name" -> "fame": In the Sil77 Nauglamír is really a name, now the treasure of Glaurung is not really. We could take "Hoard of Glaurung" as a name but I found it more fitting to change to "fame". If we take "Hoard of Glaurung" as a name we should capitalise it here and anywhere else.

§15: I wanted to hold that phrase out of two reasons, and both are debatable:
1. It did emphasis that Thingol did at first not desired the hoard.
2. It did emphasis the longanimity that Thingol showed Húrin in their encounter.
Both, I think, are dealt with in the TT passage more implicit, than in the later Q30 account.

While searching back what I did and why (the first part where Maédhros and I agreed nearly were not change much from our earlier drafts, and thus some time has been elapsed since I proposed these changes) I found one further passage that we might consider for addition: WH the last end of the Grey Annals:
Quote:
Here the text stops abruptly; but on the same page and clearly at the same time my father wrote the following:

Hurin goes to seek Gondolin. Fails. Passes by Brethil, and his anguish is increased. They will not admit him - saying that the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin. But A [?new] Lord gives the dragon-helm to Hurin. His heart is hot against Thingol. He passes it [Doriath] by and goes on to Nargothrond. Why? To seek news, plunder, - he had been an admirer of Felagund.
News of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Feanor, and dismayed Maeðros, but did not all displease Celeg[orn] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But the Dwarves of [sic] How did Mim find it? He must come of a different race.
I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news. I would add them thus:
Quote:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

§3a (§272) {But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there.} RD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin, the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} RD-EX-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that <RD-EX-07.5 <WH {News}news of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Feanor, and dismayed {Maeðros}[Maedhros], but did not all displease {Celeg[orn]}[Celegorm] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But> after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond>. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells.
All suggestions of Aiwendil I did not comment on I agree with and if Maédhros (or any body else) does not gainsay it, I will change them in the next version of test accordingly.

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Old 12-11-2004, 11:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.
I think that with the justification that Findegil provided, it think that it is safe to keep it, and for that I'm glad.

Quote:
This piece is a bit problematic. I see the purpose of your changes: to alter it so that it is describing, in the pluperfect, what has just passed. But if it does so and nothing more I see no reason to keep it.
I think that we should make every effort to keep that line, and I think that Findegil provided a good reason for it to be done.

Quote:
Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?
I think that we must make Húrin kill Mîm. If you see the whole part in the Wanderings of Húrin
Quote:
Tuor weds Idril daughter of Turgon.
Húrin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm the petty-dwarf. He and his men carry off the treasure of Glaurung and bring it to Doriath. Húrin is admitted in pity.
At first I thought that it was only Húrin who came to Nargothrond, but I noticed that the next sentence has his men carry the treasure. I think that there is no doubt that this is the later idea of JRRT regarding this and we must be faithful to it.

Quote:
I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news. I would add them thus:
I really like this:
Quote:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>
But there must be a way to include the fact that Húrin was given the dragon helm in Brethil.
So I would add this:

Quote:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH / for while in Brethil he was given / the dragon-helm and of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>
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Old 12-11-2004, 01:54 PM   #11
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RD-EX-05

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
But since we used the possibly later TY as the ruling source in all other querstions we should probably stick to it here.
Agreed; the whole episode should take place in 501, so we can keep "late in the year".

RD-EX-06

Findegil:
Quote:
Since we had agreed to let Húrin been reluctance to the killing of Mîm by his men I sought it necessary to make Húrin not all knowing in that case. But I might have over done it here since it might not be expected that Húrin did know all details from what the original text says.
I do see your point; but I don't think that Hurin's full knowledge concerning the story would necessarily have any effect on whether or not he was willing to kill Mim.

RD-EX-09 and RD-EX-10

Findegil:
Quote:
We have no source for the Sil77 dialog. So you might be right to use TT exclusively. But the claim of Mîm that his people had build the halls are based on Quendi and Eldar and are nowwhere else given if we do not introduce it (here and/or in other places). In addition it would be a shame to lose it here. So I think we should use your suggestion.
And Maedhros:
Quote:
I think that with the justification that Findegil provided, it think that it is safe to keep it, and for that I'm glad.
I am hesitant about using dialogue written by CT unless we really need to. But it is a good point that this particular datum concerning the Petty-dwarves is not elsewhere given. I suppose in view of that we can retain the QS77 dialogue as in my suggestion.

Findegil:
Quote:
In addition Nulukkizdin must be changed to Nulukhizdīn
Or rather "Nulukkhizdīn" with two "k"s. Good catch.

RD-SL-03

Findegil:
Quote:
Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?
And Maedhros:
Quote:
I think that we must make Húrin kill Mîm.
The question is whether the bald sentences in TY and the Narn plot-synopsis are to be taken as formulating a new story or as mere compression. I can imagine that "Hurin slays Mim" in such a context could still represent the Q30 story, even if on the surface it looks like it contradicts it.

But the more I think about it the more forced such an interpretation looks to me. I don't see it as being an especially difficult change to implement; is there any reason not to simply use the TT version?

RD-EX-17

Findegil:
Quote:
Your suggested changes read better then mine. But I would hold the introduction of Húrins words.
Your suggestion looks good to me.

Quote:
"name" -> "fame": In the Sil77 Nauglamír is really a name, now the treasure of Glaurung is not really.
Ah. I understand, and agree with the change.

Quote:
§15: I wanted to hold that phrase out of two reasons, and both are debatable:
1. It did emphasis that Thingol did at first not desired the hoard.
2. It did emphasis the longanimity that Thingol showed Húrin in their encounter.
Both, I think, are dealt with in the TT passage more implicit, than in the later Q30 account.
Maedhros:
Quote:
I think that we should make every effort to keep that line, and I think that Findegil provided a good reason for it to be done.
Yes, I agree it would be desirable to keep the line. But only if it can be done without awkwardness. It doesn't work to insert it here between Hurin's words and Thingol's reaction to them. Perhaps there's a better way to do it.

Findegil:
Quote:
I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news.
Yes, I had forgotten about that note, but we ought to include it. Your suggestion is good.

Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
But there must be a way to include the fact that Húrin was given the dragon helm in Brethil.
Now this is an interesting issue. There are really two distinct things for us to think about here:

1. The Narn - is the projected revision that extends the history of the Dragon-helm beyond the battle on Amon Rudh workable or not? It would require some revision to the Narn, and it's hard to judge how much. If it's not, then the Dragon-helm was not in Brethil, and of course cannot be mentioned here.

2. The Wanderings of Hurin - the note suggesting that Hurin was given the Dragon-helm comes from before the development of the "Hurin in Brethil" story, and indeed from before the development of the character of Hardang. The note has the new lord of the people give the helm to Hurin - but Hardang does not do this in "Wanderings" (and indeed it is very difficult to imagine him doing so). The early conception seems to have been that the new lord would have been friendly with Hurin. For Hurin to receive the Dragon-helm now would require a different story.

Even if we could justify it, it is no easy matter to insert it into the text. It is very awkward to simply say "he was given the Dragon-helm".

For these reasons I fear it may prove impossible for us to use the Dragon-helm (though I admit I would very much like to if it were possible).
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Old 12-12-2004, 02:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Now this is an interesting issue. There are really two distinct things for us to think about here:

1. The Narn - is the projected revision that extends the history of the Dragon-helm beyond the battle on Amon Rudh workable or not? It would require some revision to the Narn, and it's hard to judge how much. If it's not, then the Dragon-helm was not in Brethil, and of course cannot be mentioned here.

2. The Wanderings of Hurin - the note suggesting that Hurin was given the Dragon-helm comes from before the development of the "Hurin in Brethil" story, and indeed from before the development of the character of Hardang. The note has the new lord of the people give the helm to Hurin - but Hardang does not do this in "Wanderings" (and indeed it is very difficult to imagine him doing so). The early conception seems to have been that the new lord would have been friendly with Hurin. For Hurin to receive the Dragon-helm now would require a different story.

Even if we could justify it, it is no easy matter to insert it into the text. It is very awkward to simply say "he was given the Dragon-helm".

For these reasons I fear it may prove impossible for us to use the Dragon-helm (though I admit I would very much like to if it were possible).
I really don't think that it is an impossibility at all consider the following:
From the Narn
Quote:
When all in the camp were sleeping Beleg took his bow, and in the darkness shot the wolf-sentinels, one by one and silently. Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and tied to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness. But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him, and lifting him they carried him out of the dell; yet they could bear him no further than to a thicket of thorn-trees a little way above. There they laid him down; and now the storm drew very near. Beleg drew his sword Anglachel, and with it he cut the fetters that bound Túrin; but fate was that day more strong, for the blade slipped as he cut the shackles, and Túrin's foot was pricked. Then he was aroused into a sudden wakefulness of rage and fear, and seeing one bending over him with naked blade he leapt up with a great cry, believing that Orcs were come again to torment him; and grappling with him in the darkness he seized Anglachel, and slew Beleg Cúthalion thinking him a foe.
But as he stood, finding himself free, and ready to sell his life dearly against imagined foes, there came a great flash of lightning above them; and in its light he looked down on Beleg's face. Then Túrin stood stone-still and silent, staring on that dreadful death, knowing what he had done; and so terrible was his face, lit by the lightning that flickered all about them, that Gwindor cowered down upon the ground and dared not raise his eyes.'
But now in the dell beneath the Orcs were aroused, and all the camp was in a tumult; for they feared the thunder that came out of the west, believing that it was sent against them by the great Enemies beyond the Sea. Then a wind arose, and great rains fell, and torrents swept down from the heights of Taur-nu-Fuin; and though Gwindor cried out to Túrin, warning him of their utmost peril, he made no answer, but sat unmoving and unweeping in the tempest beside the body of Beleg Cúthalion.
When morning came the storm was passed away eastward over Lothlann, and the sun of autumn rose hot and bright; but believing that Túrin would have fled far away from that place and all trace of his flight be washed away, the Orcs departed in haste without longer search, and far off Gwindor saw them marching away over the steaming sands of Anfauglith. Thus it came to pass that they returned to Morgoth empty-handed, and left behind them the son of Húrin, who sat crazed and unwitting on the slopes of Taur-nu-Fuin, bearing a burden heavier than their bonds.
And we have the note from Narn: Appendix
Quote:
It may be noted here that it was my father's intention to extend the history of the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin into the period of Túrin's so¬journ in Nargothrond and even beyond; but this was never incorporated into the narratives. In the existing versions the Helm disappears with the end of Dor-Cúarthol, in the destruction of the outlaws' stronghold on Amon Rûdh; but in some way it was to reappear in Túrin's possession at Nargothrond. It could only have come there if it had been taken by the Orcs that carried Túrin off to Angband; but its recovery from them at the time of Túrin's rescue by Beleg and Gwindor would have required some development of the narrative at that point.
An isolated scrap of writing tells that in Nargothrond Túrin would not wear the Helm again "lest it reveal him", but that he wore it when he went to the Battle of Tumhalad (The Silmarillion p.212, where he is said to have worn the Dwarf-mask that he found in the armouries of Nargothrond).
Now, is it possible that the Orcs carried some ransom from Dor-Cúarthol, such as the Dragon-Helm? I think that that is quite possible. Also we have from the narrative of the Narn that the Orcs that captured Túrin left in a hurry and could therefore could have left some of the "booty" that they had taken from the Outlaws.
Should the text be edited so as to mention it explicitly that the Dragon-Helm was retrieved by Túrin at that point, I don't think it is necessary. Consider that the Ring of Barahir, along with the other items survived in Númenor, yet they were not mentioned exaclty how it was so.
From Unfinished Tales: DESCRIPTION OF THE ISLAND OF NÚMENOR
Quote:
The King's sword was indeed Aranrúth, the sword of Elu Thingol of Doriath in Beleriand, that had descended to Elros from Elwing his mother. Other heirlooms there were beside: the Ring of Barahir; the great Axe of Tuor, father of Eärendil; and the Bow of Bregor of the House of Bëor. Only the Ring of Barahir father of Beren One-hand survived the Downfall; for it was given by Tar-Elendil to his daughter Silmarien and was preserved in the House of the Lords if Andunië, of whom the last was Elendil the Faithful who fled from the wrack of Númenor to Middle-earth. [Author's note.]—The story of the Ring of Barahir is told in The Silmarillion, Chapter XIX, and its later history in The Lord of the Rings Appendix A (I, iii and v). Of "the great Axe of Tuor" there is no mention in The Silmarillion, but it is named and described in the original "Fall of Gondolin" (1916-17, see p. iv), where it is said that in Gondolin Tuor carried an axe rather than a sword, and that he named it in the speech of the peo¬ple of Gondolin Dramborleg. In a list of names accompanying the tale Dramborleg is translated "Thudder-Sharp": "the axe of Tuor that smote both a heavy dint as of a club and cleft as a sword."
If such items such as the Aranrúth had survived, consider that in our Revised Silmarillion we do not even make a mention of it, and if there is a possibility that the Helm could be regained by Túrin after the departure from the Orcs, I think that it is possible for use to at least try and retain other aspects from the Appendix of the Narn such as:
Quote:
For fear of that helm all foes avoided him, and thus it was that he came off unhurt from that deadly field. It was thus that he came back to Nargothrond wearing the Dragon-helm, and Glaurung, de¬siring to rid Túrin of its aid and protection (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.
But Túrin answered: "Thou liest, and knowest it. For this image was made in scorn of thee; and while there one to bear it doubt shall ever assail thee, lest the bearer deal thee thy doom."
"Then it must await a master of another name," said Glaurung; "for Túrin son of Húrin I do not fear. Otherwise is it. For he has not the hardihood to look me in the face, openly."
And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.
I think that we should at least make an effort to retain those parts from the Appendix in our Túrin Chapter.
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Old 12-12-2004, 07:50 AM   #13
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Quote:
Or rather "Nulukkhizdīn" with two "k"s. Good catch.
It seems I have a bad habit of introducing my own faults into the text. Believe me or not I realy had read the text so that it was in Sil77 only a misprint from H to K. That's one of so many benefits of working as a team.

RD-SL-03:
So we will make Húrin the slayer of Mîm. Lets have that version with a bit of context:
Quote:
§4b (§276)<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: ‘We come to take what is not thine. <Sil77 Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'

§4a (§275) Sil77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.><TT O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'>

§4d TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses.

§5 Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.{'}> RD-EX-11.5 <Sil77 And{and} not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>

§6 <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.>
I am not sure if we should really use RD-EX-11.5 but I think it is needed in view of what we said about Húrins knowledge of Amon Rudh.

§15: If we all desire to hold these line it would be shame not to find a way to do so. What about a splitting of it:
Quote:
§10b (§282) RD-EX-12 <TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and {Tinwelint}[Thingol] greeted {Úrin}[Húrin] with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he said: ‘Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words -- but say only, where is {Mavin}[Morwen] my wife, and knowest thou what death did {Nienori}[Nienor] my daughter die?’>

§11 (§283) RD-EX-13 <Sil77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn,> [RD-EX-13.5[/b] <Q30 and long he bore with Húrin.> RD-EX-14 <TT Then did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Nay, had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against {Glorund}[Glaurung] the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], sweetly on my gifts, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’>

§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77 And Húrin{and he} reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>

§15 (§286) Yet Thingol would not take the hoard{, and long he bore with Húrin}; but now {Húrin scorned him,} RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me? Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me - and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cuiviénen] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O {Úrin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee’ - but he forebore to slay or to bind {Úrin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.>
§15 as it stands above should be accetable at least.

Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
But there must be a way to include the fact that Húrin was given the dragon helm in Brethil.
Aiwendil's issue 1.: I don't think that it is impossible for us to introduce the Dragon-Helm into the Narn after Dor-Cúrathol. Maédhros way to deal with the helm (simply let it reapear after in Nargothrond) is possible. I can imaging that Túrin had worne the Helm during the battle and the Orcs did not take it from his head, so that Beleg and Gwindor bore him from the camp with the Helm still on his head.
On the other hand: Christopher Tolkien does in his note suggest that the Helm must be rescued from the Orcs but is that really the case? The fight on Amon Rudh was a surprise attack. It would be quiet possible to simply add a line that when Beleg left in search of Túrin that he toke the Helm that Túrin had not worne in that battle and that the orcs had left behind.
All the other instances were the Helm is to be introduced are given in the notes to the Narn.
So Issue 1 is clearly not impossible to handle. And I agree with Maédhros that we should make an effort to bring the Helm with Túrin to Brethil.

Aiwendil's Issue 2 is much more interseting. The note is clearly older than WH. That does for me mean that the Helm was not given to Húrin in Brethil. To introduce that would be in the grey area of our rules. Anyway if we would disire to introduce it we must do so earlier when Húrin is still in Brethil. To mention that here in retrospectiv seems awakward to me. I don't think it is impossible. We could add a short note were Húrin is honored by the Moot that he later recieved also the Helm.

On the other hand, if we introduce the Helm to be given to Húrin, what would be the benefit? As fare as I can see it would be last mention of the Helms-history at all. The Helm would then disapear with Húrin out of Menegorth instead of lying in the grave with Túrin, which would be the naturall assumption if nothing is said and the Helm never reapeared after Túrins death. If we come to the conclusion that Tolkien thought that going with Húrin was the ultimate fate of the Dragon-Helm, then we should introduce the Helm in WH.

Anyway, what ever we do with the Helm, the transition between WH and The Nauglamír is, in my view, not the right place for it. This gives us a long time still to think about the issue, even if WH becomes the next part of the 'Revised Silmarillion' to be worked at.

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Old 12-12-2004, 09:10 AM   #14
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During my work to get the agreed changes into the my document of the text I found some nice piece which could also be added:
Quote:
§3a (§272) {But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there.} RD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin, the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} RD-EX-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that <RD-EX-07.5 <WH {News}news of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Fëanor, and dismayed {Maeðros}[Maedhros], but did not all displease {Celeg[orn]}[Celegorm] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But> after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond>. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. RD-EX-07.5 <TT But none had come nigh till then to despoil him, for the terror of the drake lived longer than he, and none had ventured thither again for dread of the very spirit of {Glorund}[Glaurung] the worm.>

§3b (§273) RD-EX-08<TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
I do not know why I left "Bute none had come nigh ... " out in my first editing but I don't see why we should not take it up. As similar passages is found in Sil77 as well.

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Old 12-12-2004, 10:12 AM   #15
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Regarding the Dragon-helm:

I think that ultimately I agree that it can be worked into the later portions of the Narn - but I don't think that this is quite as easy a matter as Maedhros suggests. To me it feels wrong simply not to mention it during the rescue from the Orcs and then to have it suddenly reappear, without explanation, in Nargothrond.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Christopher Tolkien does in his note suggest that the Helm must be rescued from the Orcs but is that really the case? The fight on Amon Rudh was a surprise attack. It would be quiet possible to simply add a line that when Beleg left in search of Túrin that he toke the Helm that Túrin had not worne in that battle and that the orcs had left behind.
I once thought this too, but there is a note from the Narn material buried in the commentary on GA:

Quote:
Beleg searching the Orc-camp [in Taur-nu-Fuin] finds the dragon-helm - or was it set on Turin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him? Thus it was borne away to Nargothrond; but Turin would not wear it again, lest it reveal him, until the Battle of Dalath Dirnen.
So the story clearly must be that the Dragon-helm went north with the Orcs. This note does actually seem to provide a potential way to deal with the text at that point, though.

The fate of the Dragon-helm after Turin's death is another issue. In the Narn it is said that when Gurthang broke, all Turin's possessions had passed away. But if the Dragon-helm is still around that clearly isn't true.

But the bigger problem by far is the second one - I still don't see any way to have the helm given to Hurin without significant invention.

Quote:
I am not sure if we should really use RD-EX-11.5 but I think it is needed in view of what we said about Húrins knowledge of Amon Rudh.
Despite my general reluctance to use text straight from QS77, I think that this line does work well and is perhaps needed in view of Hurin's knowledge.

Quote:
§15: If we all desire to hold these line it would be shame not to find a way to do so.
A nice idea. I like RD-EX-13.5. Perhaps for §15 itself:

Quote:
§15 (§286) {Yet} At first Thingol would not take the hoard{, and long he bore with Húrin}; but now {Húrin scorned him,} RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure . . .
With "Yet . . ." the text here seems to contradict itself.

RD-EX-07.5:
The addition looks good to me, and if I'd been paying attention I would have been bothered by it's absence in the first place.
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Old 12-12-2004, 02:41 PM   #16
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Tolkien

Quote:
So the story clearly must be that the Dragon-helm went north with the Orcs. This note does actually seem to provide a potential way to deal with the text at that point, though.
So, if I understand correctly we are all in agreement that we can thinker with the Narn in order to use the later notes in the Appedix in our narrative.

Quote:
The fate of the Dragon-helm after Turin's death is another issue. In the Narn it is said that when Gurthang broke, all Turin's possessions had passed away. But if the Dragon-helm is still around that clearly isn't true.

But the bigger problem by far is the second one - I still don't see any way to have the helm given to Hurin without significant invention.
When I was working with the Ruin of Doriath, it had escaped my notice that note about Húrin being given the Dragon-Helm, and naturally I wanted to incorporate it into the narrative.
Our note as noted in this thread is older than our Wanderings of Húrin narrative, in that the Dragon-Helm was to be given to Húrin by a friendlier ruler in Brethil. As the story comes out, it is not something that the actual ruler of Brethil would have done, but does that makes the assumption that Húrin was given the Dragon-Helm not valid?
Can you imagine the anguish that Húrin would feel when he actually was given the Dragon-Helm that belonged to his son, for him to actually take it would surely motivate him even further to his desire to have vengeance upon Thingol. (Not that he needed a motif, for he had that)
The question would be how would the Dragon-Helm come to be in Brethil? My answer would be I really don't know. You could ask also, How did the great Axe of Tuor, father of Eärendil; and the Bow of Bregor of the House of Bëor came to Númenor?
We don't really know for sure, yet they were there nonetheless.
To me, the problem with the Dragon-Helm in Brethil is not a matter of how it came to be there, but rather if the note that mentions that Húrin recieves it in Brethil is invalidated by the fact that it was given to him by the ruler of that land.
If we merit that the note is valid, then I don't see a problem with the Helm being in Brethil and being given to Húrin. I can imagine Húrin returning to his son and to the body of Eðelwen and have with him the Dragon Helm. I'm not suggesting that we make Húrin bring the Helm to them but I just have that image in my mind.
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Old 12-12-2004, 09:03 PM   #17
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Can you imagine the anguish that Húrin would feel when he actually was given the Dragon-Helm that belonged to his son, for him to actually take it would surely motivate him even further to his desire to have vengeance upon Thingol.
It would make a good story, I agree. But that's irrelevant.

Quote:
The question would be how would the Dragon-Helm come to be in Brethil? My answer would be I really don't know. You could ask also, How did the great Axe of Tuor, father of Eärendil; and the Bow of Bregor of the House of Bëor came to Númenor?
The Bow of Bregor, we may very well suppose, was preserved by the folk of Beor that fled Dorthonion and was either kept in Dor-lomin or brought to Sirion's mouths. The Axe of Tuor was surely brought by Tuor out of Gondolin and kept at the Mouths of Sirion. In neither case is there any reason to doubt that the artifact would have been able to be passed down to Numenor. But if the Dragon-helm's history was not extended past Amon Rudh in the Narn, there would be a very good reason to wonder how it possibly could have ended up in Brethil.

But that point is quite moot, as we all seem to agree that the Narn can be altered so that the Dragon-helm survives. In this case, there is no mystery whatsoever about how it came to Brethil: Turin brought it there.

The greater problem by far is Wanderings.

Quote:
Our note as noted in this thread is older than our Wanderings of Húrin narrative, in that the Dragon-Helm was to be given to Húrin by a friendlier ruler in Brethil. As the story comes out, it is not something that the actual ruler of Brethil would have done, but does that makes the assumption that Húrin was given the Dragon-Helm not valid?
I certainly think it makes the note invalid for our purposes. One could fabricate a story about Hurin receiving the Helm, but it would be an invention. The old story was that the lord of Brethil gives the Helm to him, and that story is directly contradicted by Wanderings.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:57 AM   #18
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§15 Aiwendil, could you tell us where you find a contradiction when the phrase "Yet" is used here? I find the suggested "At first" rather contraditing the following "now ... he said: '... Get thee gone, O {Úrin}[Húrin], ... , and take thy riches with thee’"
We use the half sentence in the same sense as it was in the original: In that moment in the story Thingol was not willing to take the hoard. And in our versions he said so imidiatley afterwards. Later when he bargained with the Outlaws he had changed his mind.
The same goes for Q30. There are no Outlaws, but only a § later then "Yet Thingol would not take the hoard" it tells "Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth." I would not call that a contradiction but a change of mind in the case of Thingol.

All other textual discussions we have reached an agreement as it seems. It remains then the Dragon Helm. Do we agree that, if we in the end take up the note that the Helm was given to Húrin,we would add it into our text at an earlier place? Or are we going to tell it in an retrospective way as Maédhros tried?

Anyway let's try to find the right place now. first we should analyse the note:
Quote:
Hurin goes to seek Gondolin. Fails. Passes by Brethil, and his anguish is increased. They will not admit him - saying that the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin. But Λ [?new] Lord (7) gives the dragon- helm to Hurin. His heart is hot against Thingol. He passes it [Doriath] by and goes on to Nargothrond. Why? To seek news, plunder, - he had been an admirer of Felagund.

Footnote:
7. The space marked by a caret evidently awaited the name of the new Lord of Brethil.
The new Lord was not really friendly with Húrin. The "But" indicates that against all his other dealings with Húrin he gave him the Helm. That behavior we could even think of for Harathor (later Hardang) had his dealings with Húrin not gone completly wrong. Now after the note was written the story was developed to what we have in WH. If we now try to interpret the note in view of WH the "new Lord" could refer to Hardang, or Daruin(<Avranc) (Manthor never became Halad). For Hardang it is impossible to give the Helm to Húrin as the story went. But if we take the note refering to Daruin, we could think that he would have given the Helm with the party that left Brethil. Thus we would intorduce the note earlier in our text:
Quote:
<WH §266 But Húrin stood silent, and when the company departed, bearing away the body of Manthor, he did not turn. He looked ever west till the sun fell into dark cloud and the light failed; and then he went down alone towards the Hauð-en-Elleth.>

§1a (§267) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>

§1b (§268) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of {Glomund}[Glaurung] and his very memory.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH N54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-01.5 <editorial bridge And they brought Húrin a message, that ><WH, Note at the end of GA /the people in Brethil/{They} will not admit him /ever again/ - saying that the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin. But { Λ }/from /[Daruin] the {[?}new{] Lord}[Chieftain] {gives}/they brought/ the dragon-helm/ of Dor-lómin/ to Húrin.>RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}[was] glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.
Maybe not really a smooth editing and a bit of forced interpretation of the note, but it could be the best place to add the Helm, even beter maybe than the Moot of Brethil where it would cerate a break in the action or change the picture drastical.

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:46 PM   #19
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Looking back at §15 I think "Yet" is fine - the sense is slightly different since we have eliminated from this point "and long he bore with Hurin."

About the Dragon-helm: I must say I really don't think we would be justified in having it given to Hurin. The story projected in the note is completely different from the story told in WH. The new lord of the note is neither Hardang nor Daruin, and to interpret the note as referring to one of them is to force a meaning onto it that it doesn't have. Why would Daruin give the Helm to Hurin, anyway? One could imagine some reason - perhaps it is a gesture of scorn, like Hurin's gift of the gold to Thingol, or perhaps Daruin desires to be rid of any reminders of Turin and the house of Hador. But either of these stories - or any other - is an invention. Clearly no such motive was present in the note - before the development of Hardang and his party, there would be no reason for the new lord not to give the helm to Hurin, even if "the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin."

Moreover, if Tolkien really had retained the idea that the Dragon-helm was given to Hurin, one would very much expect it to turn up in the outlines for the continuation of the story - and it does not.

Other than this issue, I think we're done with this section.
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
About the Dragon-helm: I must say I really don't think we would be justified in having it given to Hurin. The story projected in the note is completely different from the story told in WH. The new lord of the note is neither Hardang nor Daruin, and to interpret the note as referring to one of them is to force a meaning onto it that it doesn't have. Why would Daruin give the Helm to Hurin, anyway? One could imagine some reason - perhaps it is a gesture of scorn, like Hurin's gift of the gold to Thingol, or perhaps Daruin desires to be rid of any reminders of Turin and the house of Hador. But either of these stories - or any other - is an invention. Clearly no such motive was present in the note - before the development of Hardang and his party, there would be no reason for the new lord not to give the helm to Hurin, even if "the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin."

Moreover, if Tolkien really had retained the idea that the Dragon-helm was given to Hurin, one would very much expect it to turn up in the outlines for the continuation of the story - and it does not.
Unfortunately, I do not see a way to introduce the Dragon-Helm given to Húrin in Brethil in a way that it is appropiate for all 3 of us to agree. So I would not advocate that addition until I (or anyone else) can come up with a better idea.
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Old 12-17-2004, 05:51 AM   #21
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The longer I think about it the more I find my self draged to give the Dragon-helm to Húrin. But as jet I could not find any satisfactional way to introduce it. So for the moment we should leave it as it is: the Helm desipiered with the death of Túrin.

I think we all agree that these section is finished for the moment.
I will not post a new version before we have not finished the other sections.

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