Lindon

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Lindon is, to my knowledge, never directly described by JRRT. How do you picture this country at the end of the third age? Or during the rule of Gil-Galad in the second age?

We know that Lindon was the last remaining part of Beleriand after the turmoils that ended the elder days. Here, Cirdan was lord over one of the last high elven settlements in Middle Earth after the fall of Gil-Galad. At the Grey Havens he kept ships with the capacity to carry world-weary elves on the straigth path across the seas to Aman. In Lindon, along green shores under the mist-clad Blue Mountains, noldor elves still tarried towards the end of the third age, and here Galadriel and Celeborn dwelled for many long years.

So how did the elven settlements look like you reckon? Were there cities or just scattered households. I personally doubt the Noldor would settle for simple huts.

How about the Gray Havens? Was it a walled fortress capable of withstanding a siege or a more modest dwellingplace?

And how did their society function? Did they engage in trade? We know there were dwarves in the Blue Mountains.

And where does the Shire fit in? The Gray Havens could be reached in just a few days from it and Bilbo were said to visit the elves from time to time. Is it possible that some Hobbits did have contacts with Lindon?

What about Gondor towards the end of the third age? Did they have contacts with Lindon?

[Eönwë]

Cirdan the shipwright. My favourite elf of all, and probably (I think) the wisest.

I'll just start on him for now. He has been alive on middle-earth for around 15,000 years. I'm sure that in that time he has had time to sort out a nice house. Think about that- 15,000 years in a tiny corrugated-mithril-roofed house?

Anyway, I'm sure it wasn't that bad. I know he wanted to go West, and was allowed to, but still, after bidden by the Valar, he stayed for many long years, through the darkness. If it wasn't a nice place, he certainly would have left.

I wonder how the Grey Havens looked. Imagine it. The sun setting behind the sea and the sea breeeze... wait I'm getting a bit carried away. I have a question myself. Do you think the Grey Havens were built up with stone, or more rural? And was it bustling during the day, or peaceful and quiet? Cheerful or Gloomy (I can imagine a cold breeze whistling through the cold stones of a long forgotten building, but I hope it wasn't like that)?


PS. I know I haven't really contributed much, so I'll try and post a more informative thing sometime.

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Originally Posted by Eönwë

Cirdan the shipwright. My favourite elf of all, and probably (I think) the wisest.

I'll just start on him for now. He has been alive on middle-earth for around 15,000 years. I'm sure that in that time he has had time to sort out a nice house. Think about that- 15,000 years in a tiny corrugated-mithril-roofed house?

Anyway, I'm sure it wasn't that bad. I know he wanted to go West, and was allowed to, but still, after bidden by the Valar, he stayed for many long years, through the darkness. If it wasn't a nice place, he certainly would have left.

Agreed. And I don't think we should see Cirdan as alone. He probably had many followers who willingly shared his fate of remaining by the shores of Middle Earth.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I wonder how the Grey Havens looked. Imagine it. The sun setting behind the sea and the sea breeeze... wait I'm getting a bit carried away. I have a question myself. Do you think the Grey Havens were built up with stone, or more rural? And was it bustling during the day, or peaceful and quiet? Cheerful or Gloomy (I can imagine a cold breeze whistling through the cold stones of a long forgotten building, but I hope it wasn't like that)?

I certainly imagine the Grey Havens to be a fairly substantial city, if perhaps partly abandoned, surrounded by stone walls, high and strong. Cirdan was present when Brithombar and Eglarest were sacked by Morgoth, strong as they were, and would not have built the Havens without considering its defenses. Here great ships were built which would require many kinds of labours and resources not nessesarily available nearby. Lumber must be cut and prepared, sails need to be weaved, etc etc. I would envision the Havens to be a fairly bustling place, even towards the end of the third age. Most inhabitants would have been busy with their everyday chores and although the people of Cirdan would have had a wistful longing to cross the sea, they also must have come to terms with their fate and made the best of the situation. They would have been fishermen, but the sea alone can't sustain a people which suggests farming and/or trade. They could probably come by many inland goods from the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains I reckon.

On a different note, how about the Palantir? The elves still had the one looking west at the end of the third age, didn't they?

[The Might]

Ok, firstly the question to which I have a certain answer, meaning the last one about the palantir.

As Tolkien wrote in The Road Goes Ever On:

After the fall of Elendil the High-Elves took back this Stone into their own care, and it was not destroyed, nor again used by Men.

He also notes that the Elves who sing a hymn to Elbereth at Rivendell (FotR) use the term palan-díriel, that means"gazing afar", showing as such that they were at that time returning from looking into the palantir.

And so they continued to do until the end of the Third Age, when the palantir was removed to the West with the ship that carried the Ringbearers.

Now as far as Lindon and the Grey Havens are concerned I doubt that much information besides what has already been mentioned exists.
I could add that the Blue Mountains had large forests on their slopes all the way towards the Sea, so the Elves clearly had plenty of wood there.
As far as other building materials as well as metals are concerned I believe that trade with Dwarves would have been important. We know for example that Thrain and Thorin II created halls in the Blue Mountains towards the end of the Third Age and also that Thorin laboured in the forge and gathered such wealth as he could, so perhaps also through trade with the Elves.

As far as how the Grey Havens looked... it really is hard to say, though personally if I were to guess, I would probably compare it to Brithombar or Eglarest, the great havens of Beleriand and probably (in my mind) the closest thing to Mithlond.
As such we learn, that the havens had been built to fair walled towns in F.A.65, with quays and piers of stone.
So since Noldor also lived in Lindon, especially Forlond, I could imagine these havens had a similar look.
After all the battlesin Beleriand I doubt the Elves would be happy to only build a few settlements and they most surely built fortifications, if not from the beginning then at least when they first encountered Sauron and after the loss of Hollin.

Lastly, about contacts with others... I doubt it. Cirdan of all would know best that Elves were no longer truly involved in the problems of M-e. Look for example at Arvedui's demise. Had the Elves been really so keen in somehow saving Arvedui they would have looked for him earlier and would not have sent a boat after so much time.
They were seemingly willing to help, but only if it was of the utmost importance. As such, I don't see them contacting Hobbits (anyway, very few Hobbits were said to have seen the Sea) and the only time they passed through or near the Shire was when they went to the Tower of Elostirion or to Rivendell.
Pretty much the same goes for Gondor also.

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We are pretty much on the same page I think. If they indeed had the palantir the Havens must have been fortified and well protected for this reason alone. And correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Mithlond nor Lindon was ever ravaged by war, right? A resonable conclusion then is that much of the buildings and structures were built early in the second age, before the elves really began to fade. I would therefore imagine the habitations of the Havens and of Lindon as exceedingly fair and ancient.

Originally Posted by The Might

Lastly, about contacts with others... I doubt it. Cirdan of all would know best that Elves were no longer truly involved in the problems of M-e. Look for example at Arvedui's demise. Had the Elves been really so keen in somehow saving Arvedui they would have looked for him earlier and would not have sent a boat after so much time.
They were seemingly willing to help, but only if it was of the utmost importance. As such, I don't see them contacting Hobbits (anyway, very few Hobbits were said to have seen the Sea) and the only time they passed through or near the Shire was when they went to the Tower of Elostirion or to Rivendell.
Pretty much the same goes for Gondor also.

Still, Lindon must've been easily reached from Gondor by boat or from the Shire by foot. It's hard to believe that no ships from the great seafaring nation of Gondor made the trip north or that no adventurous hobbit ever went to the Tower Hills and beyond to gaze upon the sea between the fall of Arnor and the the war of the ring. So even if the elves did not seek out contact with the outside world they must have seen visitors from time to time, unless they chased people away like the inhabitants of Lorien seemed to've done.

In any case, while the North Kingdom still remained the elves of Lindon were the numenorians' closest neighbours and surely there must have been some contact between the two peoples back then.


Edit: For those interested in a trip to Lindon it is located in Ohio. I think the fair people would have liked it there by the looks of it.
http://www.city-data.com/city/Lindon-Utah.html

[The Might]

You seem to have forgotteon one key aspect while making your first assumption - the Elendil-stone was never kept at Mithlond, but in the Tower of Elostirion, tallest of the 3 White Towers that were build by Gil-Galad for Elendil. These towers were only guarded by the Elves.

As far as Gondor and the Hobbits are concerned I still must strongly disagree.

Firstly about the Hobbits, I believe that this quote from "Concerning Hobbits" should prove most informative:

Three Elf-towers of immemorial age were still to be seen on the Tower Hills beyond the western marches. They shone far off in the moonlight. The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound. The Hobbits of the Westfarthing said that one could see the Sea from the lop of that tower; but no Hobbit had ever been known to climb it. Indeed, few Hobbits had ever seen or sailed upon the Sea, and fewer still had ever returned to report it. Most Hobbits regarded even rivers and small boats with deep misgivings, and not many of them could swim. And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with the Elves, and grew afraid of them, and distrustful of those that had dealings with them; and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death, and they turned their faces away from the hills in the west.

Indeed except Sam, Frodo and Bilbo, who passed over the Sea, and Merry and Pippin, who at least went to Havens, there are only two other known examples of Hobbits that went to the Sea.
Firstly, Basso Boffin, who went to the Sea in 2795 and never returned to tell the tale.
Secondly, Isengar Took, who was said to have gone to the Sea in his youth.
As such, there is little doubt in my mind that Hobbits had almost nothing to do with the Elves of Lindon.

And the Gondorians are only said to have traveled so far in times of need, such as the time an army was sent to help fight off the forces of Angmar.

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Originally Posted by The Might

You seem to have forgotteon one key aspect while making your first assumption - the Elendil-stone was never kept at Mithlond, but in the Tower of Elostirion, tallest of the 3 White Towers that were build by Gil-Galad for Elendil. These towers were only guarded by the Elves.

This is developing into a very speculative argument but what the heck...

I still believe that Mithlond would have been a walled and well protected place. I said the palantir would be a reason alone to guard the city. There are many other reasons too. Like I mentioned earlier, Cirdan would have learnt the hard way not to put trust in a lasting peace. If seriously threatened by a hostile army, the palantir could also quickly be relocated to the Havens if required.

As far as Gondor and the Hobbits are concerned I still must strongly disagree. Firstly about the Hobbits, I believe that this quote from "Concerning Hobbits" should prove most informative:

I actually think the quote is more supportive of my point of view than of yours.

Indeed, few Hobbits had ever seen or sailed upon the Sea, and fewer still had ever returned to report it.

So some had seen the sea and lived to tell the tale after all...

And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with the Elves, and grew afraid of them, and distrustful of those that had dealings with them

Apparently some spoke with the elves as well, although they were not many.

As such, there is little doubt in my mind that Hobbits had almost nothing to do with the Elves of Lindon

This I agree with. They had almost nothing to do with the elves of Lindon. I don't think there ever was any trade between Lindon and the Shire. After all, what did the Hobbits have that the elves needed? But every now and then a crazy Took or two must have made their way into Lindon, if they weren't denied entry.

I also agree that the contacts between Lindon and Gondor must have been minimal or non-existant towards the end of the third age. However, there certainly was a time when the Elves did have dealings with the men of Arnor and to some degree Gondor..

[The Might]

As you will notice in my first post here I fully agree that it would be walled and well protected, only pointed out that the reasoning with the palantir is not working. But indeed, there were many other reasons for this.

Ah yes, it seems I have misunderstood your point. I now noticed you were also speaking of certain exceptions and not of a rule and so I must apologize, I thought you had some stronger contact in mind.

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^No appologies needed.

When you try to imagine how life in Lindon (or in any other elven society) must have been a problem to my mind is the elevated and idealised way in which Tolkien portrayed his elves.

I think it's fair to presume that Lindon was an agrarian society where the sea also had an important place in people's every day life. But life in such a society would require a lot of back-breaking labour. Can you imagine the fishermen returning with their catch every morning, after battling hard winds and rough waters out in the unforgiving ocean? How could they still would be considered the fair people after thousands of salt-stained years? And can you picture the elven maidens gutting fish on the piers, with blood, slime and scales all over their pretty little fingers? Or the lumberjacks, pushing their oxen hard to pull carts loaded with trunks of great oaktrees home? It's hard to do, isn't it. You'd rather picture them singing a song to fill their nets with fish or something like that.

[The Might]

Of course, of course... still, I guess this is just a misconception.
Also, you don't really think that the Silvan Elves feasting in Mirkwood in The Hobbit actually had to do much to get all that organized, it just all probably magically popped out of the earth.
Perhaps Elves would have an easier time with daily chores in the household because they do possess powers that Men lack and so could get done with all the work without so much effort, but still it wasn't as easy as many think.

What I think would even be harder would be to imagine Elves doing anything in Aman. I mean I picture Ingwe feasting and sleeping for thousands of years.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by skip spence

When you try to imagine how life in Lindon (or in any other elven society) must have been a problem to my mind is the elevated and idealised way in which Tolkien portrayed his elves.

One thing to remember is that LotR is told from the hobbit point of view and the hobbits, particularly Sam and Frodo, are especially entranced with elves. It is part of a clash of cultures, except that it isn't a clash so much as a wide-eyed discovery of astonishing possibilities that neither hobbit had ever thought of or experienced previously. As Sam says once Frodo has awakened in the Last Homely House east of the Sea, "Always a bit more to discover, and no knowing what you'll find round a corner." ("Many Meetings")

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Yeah I suppose the elves do scrub the floor or wash the dishes just like you and me. Perhaps they even use the bathroom.

It's kinda of like your mum and dad having sex I suppose. Evidently they do it (or have done it) from time to time but you just don't want to think about it that much. Or at all.

[The Might]

I think of it as immaculate conception, LOL.