Bard? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eorl of Rohan · 02-18-2004, 01:08 AM

Someone referred the Valar as the Bards. They say it's in Silmarillion. I may have missed it, but I've been searching for that particular word the whole night but could not find it.

Where exactly are Valar referred to as Bards?

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-18-2004, 02:10 AM

I'm moving this Silmarillion question to the Books forum in hopes of getting an answer from the experts there. The only Middle-earth reference to 'Bard' of which I am aware is that to Bard the Bowman, King of Dale.

Eorl of Rohan · 02-18-2004, 04:03 AM

*snarls* If that person tricked me, I'll make them pay for making me sit up till 4 AM...

Secret Fire · 02-18-2004, 04:09 AM

I have racked my memory and consulted BolT, which would be far more likely to have such a reference, but my Silmarillion text seems to be a couple hours from here, and no, the Valar were not called bards, ever i believe. I have consulted the wise burrahobbit at the chat room as well, adn he has heard no such idea. I think you have been duped.

***Sharkû*** · 02-18-2004, 08:30 AM

The Valar, along with the Maiar and several other creatures were called the Ainur, the _Singers_, because they were present at the creation and took part in it. I cannot recall an instance where they were called _bards_, but this might be where a misunderstanding cropped up.

Lindolirian · 02-18-2004, 12:56 PM

Bards may have been used by your friend in this way

Quote:

One of an ancient Celtic order of minstrel poets who composed and recited verses celebrating the legendary exploits of chieftains and heroes.

This would explain the connection with Ainur, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Slayer of Smaug.

Findegil · 02-18-2004, 04:42 PM

I consulted the Index of the complet History of Middle-Earth series but I found only references to Brad the Bowman. And in addition the Index to Letters does not provide any such word at all. Following that I find it very inprobalbe that Tolkien ever called his Valar "Bards".

Respectfully
Findegil

Finwe · 02-18-2004, 04:59 PM

"Bard" just somehow seems too jolly of a word to describe the Ainur. They were rather majestic folk who sat around looking majestic in everything that they did.

I can see how your friend could have been confused between "Bard" and "Singer," since the two often mean pretty much the same thing.

Eorl of Rohan · 02-18-2004, 08:29 PM

I said what you said to the person, but she sent me an email saying

- >> I specifically read the word "bard" in the Sil. I, also, have consulted others in love with LOTR who guarantee there is the word "bard" in the Sil. You're extremly pompous. I have better things to do than argue with people like you to no avail who seems to have too much time to waste. Why don't you cleanly admit you lost?

I mean, unless she is completely lying, which I don't think so because she seems so confident, there MUST be BARD somewhere.

Findegil · 02-19-2004, 08:28 AM

If I were you I would not spent any more time to the guy. But if you like to have the last word in the debate say him straightforward that you don't believe him and that the only to make you believe him is to provide a quote from the Silmarillion with the information were it is to be found in the book.

Respectfully
Findegil

Legolas · 03-01-2004, 06:37 PM

The word 'bard' does not appear in The Silmarillion. Your friend is simply wrong. Explain to her what age she is living in.

I have The Silmarillion in Microsoft Word document form and it takes all of one second to do a text search revealing that bard is most certainly not in the book anywhere.

Liriodendron · 03-01-2004, 09:22 PM

Why doesn't she just cite the use of the word? My goodness....what's the big secret! Of course, it obviously isn't there.

Thulorongil · 03-02-2004, 10:58 PM

Sheesh! That reminds me of something my little brother or some other little kid would do. Ask him a question and he'll probably say he knows the answer, but if you ask him what the answer is and he doesn't know, he'll just say "It's a secret!" or "why should I tell you?!" or, of course, "I forgot!" You should just show her all these posts and then she'll probably just admit she's wrong.

Or of course you could always come up with some random fact like who is the son of the cousin of the former roommate of Haleth?! (well, not that extreme, but it's too late for me to think of a fact that's actually a...fact.) Or just flip open to a page, pick out a word, and then tell her that it's in the Sil. Then she can stay up 'till 4 a.m. looking a grumbling to herself.

I hope that I don't somehow know the "her" ...hehe

02-18-2004, 01:08 AM	#1
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	Bard? Someone referred the Valar as the Bards. They say it's in Silmarillion. I may have missed it, but I've been searching for that particular word the whole night but could not find it. Where exactly are Valar referred to as Bards? __________________ There is no signature here.

02-18-2004, 02:10 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,499	I'm moving this Silmarillion question to the Books forum in hopes of getting an answer from the experts there. The only Middle-earth reference to 'Bard' of which I am aware is that to Bard the Bowman, King of Dale. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-18-2004, 04:03 AM	#3
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	snarls If that person tricked me, I'll make them pay for making me sit up till 4 AM... __________________ There is no signature here.

02-18-2004, 04:09 AM	#4
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	I have racked my memory and consulted BolT, which would be far more likely to have such a reference, but my Silmarillion text seems to be a couple hours from here, and no, the Valar were not called bards, ever i believe. I have consulted the wise burrahobbit at the chat room as well, adn he has heard no such idea. I think you have been duped. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

02-18-2004, 04:59 PM	#8
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	"Bard" just somehow seems too jolly of a word to describe the Ainur. They were rather majestic folk who sat around looking majestic in everything that they did. I can see how your friend could have been confused between "Bard" and "Singer," since the two often mean pretty much the same thing. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-18-2004, 08:30 AM	#5
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	The Valar, along with the Maiar and several other creatures were called the Ainur, the _Singers_, because they were present at the creation and took part in it. I cannot recall an instance where they were called _bards_, but this might be where a misunderstanding cropped up.

02-18-2004, 04:42 PM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	I consulted the Index of the complet History of Middle-Earth series but I found only references to Brad the Bowman. And in addition the Index to Letters does not provide any such word at all. Following that I find it very inprobalbe that Tolkien ever called his Valar "Bards". Respectfully Findegil

02-18-2004, 08:29 PM	#9
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	I said what you said to the person, but she sent me an email saying - >> I specifically read the word "bard" in the Sil. I, also, have consulted others in love with LOTR who guarantee there is the word "bard" in the Sil. You're extremly pompous. I have better things to do than argue with people like you to no avail who seems to have too much time to waste. Why don't you cleanly admit you lost? I mean, unless she is completely lying, which I don't think so because she seems so confident, there MUST be BARD somewhere. __________________ There is no signature here.

02-19-2004, 08:28 AM	#10
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	If I were you I would not spent any more time to the guy. But if you like to have the last word in the debate say him straightforward that you don't believe him and that the only to make you believe him is to provide a quote from the Silmarillion with the information were it is to be found in the book. Respectfully Findegil

03-01-2004, 06:37 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The word 'bard' does not appear in The Silmarillion. Your friend is simply wrong. Explain to her what age she is living in. I have The Silmarillion in Microsoft Word document form and it takes all of one second to do a text search revealing that bard is most certainly not in the book anywhere. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Legolas; 03-01-2004 at 06:43 PM.

03-01-2004, 09:22 PM	#12
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	Why doesn't she just cite the use of the word? My goodness....what's the big secret! Of course, it obviously isn't there. __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com

03-02-2004, 10:58 PM	#13
Thulorongil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: wherever the road may take me Posts: 97	Sheesh! That reminds me of something my little brother or some other little kid would do. Ask him a question and he'll probably say he knows the answer, but if you ask him what the answer is and he doesn't know, he'll just say "It's a secret!" or "why should I tell you?!" or, of course, "I forgot!" You should just show her all these posts and then she'll probably just admit she's wrong. Or of course you could always come up with some random fact like who is the son of the cousin of the former roommate of Haleth?! (well, not that extreme, but it's too late for me to think of a fact that's actually a...fact.) Or just flip open to a page, pick out a word, and then tell her that it's in the Sil. Then she can stay up 'till 4 a.m. looking a grumbling to herself. I hope that I don't somehow know the "her" ...hehe __________________ I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago, And people who will see a world that I shall never know.