Faerie?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arwen1858 · 11-06-2003, 03:58 PM

I have a question. I did do a search, but didn't find a good answer. In The Hobbit, it says that the Wood Elves were descended from ancient tribs that never went to Faerie in the West. Is Faerie another name for Valinor? If so, is it just Valinor, or does it include other places? If not, then what is it? I know he has his essay on Faerie stories, and he talks about Faerie a bit, but is it mentioned in any of his other works about Middle-earth? I read the Hobbit once several years ago, once last year, and I'm reading through it again, I've read LotR twice, and last fall I read Smith of Wooton Major and Farmer Giles of Ham. But I haven't yet read the Silm, altough I'm starting it now, and I haven't read a lot of his other works. Is it mentioned in any of them? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Arwen

Olorin_TLA · 11-06-2003, 05:45 PM

Yep, it's Valinor. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Voralphion · 11-06-2003, 06:07 PM

Faerie was the original name he used for Valinor. I believe it is also used in the Book of Lost Tales I & II.

Finwe · 11-06-2003, 06:49 PM

I think Tolkien used that word when he intended the history of Middle-earth to be a tale told by Rumil of Tirion to Edwin (I can't remember his other names), a traveler through space and time. Faerie is also probably a Mannish name for any kind of Utopia, and Valinor certainly fits that description.

Arwen1858 · 11-06-2003, 06:58 PM

thank you all very much for your help!!
Arwen

Westerly Wizard · 11-07-2003, 03:09 PM

And perhaps the term Faerie could more accurately describe Eldamar, rather than all of Valinor. This would follow from the idea of Eldamar being Elvenhome, and that being essentially synonomous (in a manner) with the term Faerie as Tolkien uses it.

Arothir · 11-07-2003, 04:38 PM

I thought that Faerie was sort of some kind of Elven fantasy thing. That is just a set of stories about elves or whatever.

Gil-numen · 12-09-2003, 10:18 PM

It says in either HoME I or II that the bay of Faerie is the bay of Eldamar so Faerie could be Valinor, but it is probably Eldamar near Alqualonde.

------------------

"Estel"

Secret Fire · 12-10-2003, 12:19 AM

The Faeries were JRRT's early name for the elves and the name that he uses in BoLT for them when the stories are being told to AElfwine (there are some other changes too, but it mostly similar). Tol Eressea is what i always pictured as Faery (the place), personally.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 12-10-2003, 05:03 AM

Faërie is an old, old term that refers to a plane of existence beyond the physical yet short of the divine. The Elves are not the only inhabitants of Faërie in its traditional conception (which is fairly faithfully represented in Smith of Wootton Major), and it can be a perilous realm for mortals. The term pre-dates Tolkien by a very long time, and he simply used it when writing the early versions of his legends. In those days the link between the legends of the Elves and the physical modern world was much more direct, and I've a feeling that Tolkien wanted to imply that our use of the term was a result of it being a name for Eldamar.

There's a wealth of information about the Perilous Realm in Tolkien's lecture and essay On Fairy-Stories, which was delivered in memory of the famous scholar of myth and folklore, Andrew Lang.

Lord of Angmar · 12-10-2003, 06:23 AM

The word "faerie" can be used somewhat interchangeably with "fairy," although their meanings can be and have historically been different. Both, I believe, come from Middle English. While fairy almost always describes "a magical, mischievous, imaginary being," faerie can be used to describe where these beings dwell. I think Tolkien wished to use faerie much as he did with Elves; that is, to alter the common connotations of the word in a mythological sense (I used to think of Elves as strickly small, mischevious creatures like fairies and muses). He probably dropped Faerie as a name for the abode of the Elves when he realized the name did not fit in aesthetically with the names and languages of Middle Earth.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:24 AM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:24 AM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

11-06-2003, 03:58 PM	#1
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	Faerie?? I have a question. I did do a search, but didn't find a good answer. In The Hobbit, it says that the Wood Elves were descended from ancient tribs that never went to Faerie in the West. Is Faerie another name for Valinor? If so, is it just Valinor, or does it include other places? If not, then what is it? I know he has his essay on Faerie stories, and he talks about Faerie a bit, but is it mentioned in any of his other works about Middle-earth? I read the Hobbit once several years ago, once last year, and I'm reading through it again, I've read LotR twice, and last fall I read Smith of Wooton Major and Farmer Giles of Ham. But I haven't yet read the Silm, altough I'm starting it now, and I haven't read a lot of his other works. Is it mentioned in any of them? Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

11-06-2003, 05:45 PM	#2
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Yep, it's Valinor. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-06-2003, 06:07 PM	#3
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	Faerie was the original name he used for Valinor. I believe it is also used in the Book of Lost Tales I & II. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

11-06-2003, 06:49 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think Tolkien used that word when he intended the history of Middle-earth to be a tale told by Rumil of Tirion to Edwin (I can't remember his other names), a traveler through space and time. Faerie is also probably a Mannish name for any kind of Utopia, and Valinor certainly fits that description. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-06-2003, 06:58 PM	#5
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	thank you all very much for your help!! Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

11-07-2003, 03:09 PM	#6
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	And perhaps the term Faerie could more accurately describe Eldamar, rather than all of Valinor. This would follow from the idea of Eldamar being Elvenhome, and that being essentially synonomous (in a manner) with the term Faerie as Tolkien uses it. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

11-07-2003, 04:38 PM	#7
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	I thought that Faerie was sort of some kind of Elven fantasy thing. That is just a set of stories about elves or whatever. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

12-09-2003, 10:18 PM	#8
Gil-numen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cuivienen...hanging out with the fading Elves Posts: 36	It says in either HoME I or II that the bay of Faerie is the bay of Eldamar so Faerie could be Valinor, but it is probably Eldamar near Alqualonde. ------------------ "Estel"

12-10-2003, 12:19 AM	#9
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	The Faeries were JRRT's early name for the elves and the name that he uses in BoLT for them when the stories are being told to AElfwine (there are some other changes too, but it mostly similar). Tol Eressea is what i always pictured as Faery (the place), personally. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

12-10-2003, 05:03 AM	#10
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	Faërie is an old, old term that refers to a plane of existence beyond the physical yet short of the divine. The Elves are not the only inhabitants of Faërie in its traditional conception (which is fairly faithfully represented in Smith of Wootton Major), and it can be a perilous realm for mortals. The term pre-dates Tolkien by a very long time, and he simply used it when writing the early versions of his legends. In those days the link between the legends of the Elves and the physical modern world was much more direct, and I've a feeling that Tolkien wanted to imply that our use of the term was a result of it being a name for Eldamar. There's a wealth of information about the Perilous Realm in Tolkien's lecture and essay On Fairy-Stories, which was delivered in memory of the famous scholar of myth and folklore, Andrew Lang. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

12-10-2003, 06:23 AM	#11
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	The word "faerie" can be used somewhat interchangeably with "fairy," although their meanings can be and have historically been different. Both, I believe, come from Middle English. While fairy almost always describes "a magical, mischievous, imaginary being," faerie can be used to describe where these beings dwell. I think Tolkien wished to use faerie much as he did with Elves; that is, to alter the common connotations of the word in a mythological sense (I used to think of Elves as strickly small, mischevious creatures like fairies and muses). He probably dropped Faerie as a name for the abode of the Elves when he realized the name did not fit in aesthetically with the names and languages of Middle Earth. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:24 AM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:24 AM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.