The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2002, 06:45 PM   #1
Daecuiel the Elf
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: My house
Posts: 12
Daecuiel the Elf has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Daecuiel the Elf
Sting All that is gold does not glitter......NOT!

Tolkien didn't mean this, but saying "All that is gold does not glitter" means nothing that's gold glitters, but he meant to say Not all that is gold glitters.... Any one else notice that?

~Elfy
__________________
Ash Nazg Durbatulûk
Ash Nazg Gimbatul
Ash Nazg Thrakatulûk
Agh Burzum-ishi Krimpatul

~Elfy
Daecuiel the Elf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2002, 06:51 PM   #2
Tigerlily Gamgee
Hostess of Spirits
 
Tigerlily Gamgee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Meduseld
Posts: 1,056
Tigerlily Gamgee has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Tigerlily Gamgee
Silmaril

He is saying what you are implying, he just uses a more classic English style of writing. Their phrasing is not as we may perceive it to be today. So he meant to say exactly what he wrote. Authors choose their words wisely not hastily.
Tigerlily Gamgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2002, 09:07 PM   #3
Aosama, the Wandering Star
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Middle-Earth
Posts: 210
Aosama, the Wandering Star has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

its just mixed up to us because we're not used to it. nobody talks like that anymore, sadly (but my sister and I had an entire conversation talking like they do in Tolkiens books just for fun!) Just put the emphasis (right word?) on 'all'. "All that is gold does not glitter" means, simply put, that "not everything gold is shiny". And if you look at modern jewelry, not everythin shiny is gold... tee hee
Aosama, the Wandering Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2002, 10:19 PM   #4
Jessica Jade
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta
Posts: 154
Jessica Jade has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Jessica Jade
Sting

i LOVE TOlkien's use of inverted word order. About the "all that is gold does not glitter"--interesting, i'd never thought of it that way before, the literal way, that is. Well, It's a beautiful and resonating statement...all that is gold does not glitter...not everything that is valiant, pure, and good will shine. Not all nobility shines because sometimes it is kept hidden and secret til the right time (like Aragorn the King)! That phrase could apply to so many different things. I could go on forever, but i think my point is clear enough. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
http://www.cadential64.com

The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain
Jessica Jade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2002, 11:01 PM   #5
Birdland
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto
Posts: 1,757
Birdland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
All that glisters is not gold.—William Shakespeare: Merchant of Venice
Quote:
"'Tis an old saying, the Devil lurks behind the cross. All is not gold that glitters," - Don Quixote, Miquel de Cervantes
Tolkien did not invent this old saying, though usually it is seen in the forms above, implying that something that looks valuable may not be. Tolkien used a reverse order of the saying to imply that something that may look worthless (like a dirty, ol' ranger), may have hidden value.

But notice that they all use the same archaic sentence structure. I suppose you could say, "Not everything that looks like gold is really gold", but it wouldn't sound as pretty. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Birdland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2002, 02:14 AM   #6
pumapungente
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

I was thinking oof it just yesterday... looking at the italian translation. There's a saying in italian too "Not all that glietters is gold" I think Tolkien would mean exactly what he wrote i.e. that All that is gold does not glitter" He inverted the concept of the saying...
Quote:
all that is gold does not glitter...not everything that is valiant, pure, and good will shine. Not all nobility shines because sometimes it is kept hidden and secret til the right time (like Aragorn the King)!
I fully agree!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 07:34 AM   #7
stone of vision
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: France
Posts: 69
stone of vision has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

Results of my mesmerized wanders, I found this topic... * winked several times* :0, and told myself: Hey Sil, that's your favourite's line, dam, oh dear, omg! Eventually a topic for me! LOL! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I do love the structure sentence order tolkien chose. It gives a shed of mystery and reflexion like if it was a proverb or a riddle, about the meaning it implies.
Don't forget it was firt verse from a poem written by Bilbo for Strider/ dunadan Aragorn and represent fairly what he symbolizes. FOTR book II/ the council of Elrond.

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king"

In the French translation, "all that is gold does not glitter" is word for word: "Tout ce qui est or, ne brille pas".
We consider it as a" litote" meaning the opposite of what is written: the things who shine, look like gold, seem precious like gold, IS NOT Gold itself sometimes, but just an illusion to mask the true nature of whatever or whoever it is. The contrary is valid too: ugly, frightened appearances can hide more, in the good sense, than it look like.
So, don't be fooled by the aspect of people and situations. Semblance doesn't always reflect the inner and genuine being of a person.

It makes me think of the ugly little duck's story who shall become a magnificent swan, the worm an beautiful butterfly or the frog who whall become a prince, in a elegant poetic and Middle-earth version. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

That quote touches very much because I have friends who were not spared by Life's hurddles wich make them "disable" in their look, in their everyday life but still manage to overcome them. I believe this verse is really made for those persons with this inner beauty beaming whithin and hidden behind an unpleasant (they never ask for) appearance.

What i do wish is that one day, all thoses ugly ducks/ worms/ frogs would become charming swans/ butterflies/princes like the crownless has finally become King. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Namarié
__________________
silmarillien
All that is gold doesn't glitter.
***********************************


Nee, ai****ara
Dare mo ga konna kodoku ni naru no?
stone of vision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 12:47 PM   #8
Gimli Son Of Gloin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli
Posts: 495
Gimli Son Of Gloin has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I haven't finished LotR yet, but I read enough to understand his use of words. I started talking like that in school and kids are calling me the philosopher [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
The Few, the Proud, the Marines.
Gimli Son Of Gloin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 01:02 PM   #9
Araen
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Araen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
I haven't finished LotR yet, but I read enough to understand his use of words. I started talking like that in school and kids are calling me the philosopher
I've always loved inverted word order, a teacher got me hooked on it in 4th grade, and I have a tendency to use it when ever possible.
What everyone has said really does make sence. I agree.
__________________
"Where is the horse and the rider, where is the horn that was blowing, they have passed like rain on the mountains, like wind in the meadow, the days are damned in the west? behind the hills? there are shadows... "
Araen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 01:12 PM   #10
ElanorGamgee
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ElanorGamgee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
ElanorGamgee has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I love the line "All that is gold does not glitter." Much better than the modern saying "All that glitters is gold." That quote really annoys me.
__________________
Soli Deo Gloria
ElanorGamgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 03:05 PM   #11
QuickSlash
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Not here.
Posts: 121
QuickSlash has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to QuickSlash Send a message via Yahoo to QuickSlash
Sting

Heh... One knows they spend too much time in books and not enough with people when they only see things the way the author wrote them! ^_^ I have always loved that quote and am going to write it on something. Thank you Stone for posting the whole thing so that I didn't need to look the rest up.
__________________
We're here and now, but will we ever be again? / 'Cause I have found / All that shimmers in this world is sure to fade, away, again. -Shimmer, Fuel
QuickSlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 03:44 PM   #12
Aralaithiel
Ghost Eldaran Queen
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
Aralaithiel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I love inverted word order use! It messes beautifully with simpleton minds who never the joy experience!
Today, try it! Normal will you never again speak! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Carried away, I am!
__________________
A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"
Aralaithiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 03:53 PM   #13
ElanorGamgee
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
ElanorGamgee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
ElanorGamgee has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Like Yoda we are beginning to sound. Stop this I must, but help it I cannot! Doomed am I!

You're right, Aralaithiel, it is fun [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: ElanorGamgee ]
__________________
Soli Deo Gloria
ElanorGamgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2002, 04:07 PM   #14
VanimaEdhel
Etheral Enchantress
 
VanimaEdhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wellesley College!
Posts: 1,473
VanimaEdhel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to VanimaEdhel Send a message via MSN to VanimaEdhel
Silmaril

I believe that if thou were to use what I believe some call "Shakespearean tongue", thou wouldst become entrapped in that speech pattern as well, for, over the past few days, I, myself, have usèd "thee"'s, "thou"'s, and much other speech of that sort. It much muddled the minds of those that I encountered who knew not of such speech.

Also: if thou didst not understand that all that is gold dost not necessarily glitter, look at Frodo. If thou wouldst notice, he did not glitter in the beginning, nor much in the end of the novel. That is to say, he did not stand out, for he was a Hobbit, and Hobbits did not enjoy adventures and heroes and the like. Bilbo, Merry, Pippin, and Sam also did not glitter. Bilbo, however, glittered the most, as thou shouldst agree! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Well, I am off now!
__________________
"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes
VanimaEdhel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2002, 07:59 AM   #15
Blue Pixie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Silmaril

yikes, you sound like Le Bob! (and very very few of you are gonna ghet that...)
I had noticed the sentence formation was rather strange, butr after arguing with myself for like half an hour I just accepted it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2002, 08:54 AM   #16
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Elanor you are funny. I will say that I am quite displeased with the way humans speak today, and I use Tolkien phraseology very much. Stop this you must Elanor, thou makest me laugh. hehe! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2002, 04:54 PM   #17
Aralaithiel
Ghost Eldaran Queen
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
Aralaithiel has just left Hobbiton.
1420!

Thou art quite silly, Elanor! But fond am I of thee in thy silliness.
Aye, we must revel in our silliness, and mind not the inane bantering of bumbling fools that inhabit our fair land!
Hark! Let us to seek a new world, one in which our tongue shall be appreciated and spoken of freely!

Oh my...and I have not had any ethanol containing products today! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Honest! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"
Aralaithiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2002, 12:45 PM   #18
Blue pixie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

join you both I shall, for catch myself i do sometimes partaking in this form of speech anyway.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2002, 12:50 PM   #19
Rosa_Baggins
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hobbiton in the Shire
Posts: 145
Rosa_Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

hiya im fairly new poor me [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] lol
__________________
There is ever a Rose without thorns.
Rosa_Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2002, 12:51 PM   #20
Rosa_Baggins
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hobbiton in the Shire
Posts: 145
Rosa_Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

it this a rp if it is i relly sorry 4 spamming
__________________
There is ever a Rose without thorns.
Rosa_Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2002, 10:40 PM   #21
Lostgaeriel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Lostgaeriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto the Good
Posts: 479
Lostgaeriel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

'All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;'

Don't both of these lines mean 'Don't judge a book by its cover'? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The Lord of the Rings is just full of clichés! Got to love it! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.
Lostgaeriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2002, 11:19 PM   #22
Halfir
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Thailand
Posts: 41
Halfir has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Lostgaerial: your comment about LOTR being full of cliches is true - but in a paradoxical sense. Because, in LOTR the cliches work - they fit beautifully into the masterwork that Tolkien crafted and are intentionally there. When we use them they normally jar, or act as a substitute for creative or original thinking, but in the context of LOTR they are as fresh as a morning in spring.
__________________
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
Halfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2002, 12:10 PM   #23
Eärendil
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles)
Posts: 562
Eärendil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You are so right Halfir.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I just love it!
__________________
Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.
Eärendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 08:15 AM   #24
Aralaithiel
Ghost Eldaran Queen
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
Aralaithiel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

What a response of beauty, Halfir!
Rosa, I welcome you to the Barrow Downs!
Ah yes, the joy that clichés bring when employed as perfectly as Tolkien has done!
OK...now I am in need of caffeine! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"
Aralaithiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:10 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.