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Old 06-26-2004, 12:06 PM   #41
Gil-Galad
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i still think that Morgoth made a whole bunch of creatures, like experimented with them, yet they either failed, or escaped during the war of wrath, like the wacther and teh fell beasts, they were probaly cretures made by melkor, yet wasn't used too there full extent, suaron just took advantage of it
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Old 06-26-2004, 12:19 PM   #42
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We don't know; it's never really made clear. I like to think Eru put different creatures out of the reach of his Elves, so that they would discover that they didn't know everything (which, I believe, is a problem with those Elves...), and, once they did, to trust Eru's plan, which the Valar did not...the summoning to Aman, anyone?
I sincerly doubt that Melkor could fashion his own creature, Valar though he was. I don't think he was that creative.
Or perhaps I'm wrong, and Melkor just looked at a snake and thought; hey, if I give that wings, and legs, fire-breath, and spellcasting eyes, it'll be my minion!
But this I doubt; the dragon sickness (guarding a wealth that has no use) convinces me that they were already there, and he just took advantage of them.
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Old 06-26-2004, 12:24 PM   #43
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it says that Melkor made orcs! balrogs! dragons! alot of things! and your saying that he didn't make them
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Old 06-26-2004, 01:32 PM   #44
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Tolkien

It doesn't specifically say he made them, but it doesn't really say he didn't. The twisting of the Elves was definitely not creation, and weren't the Balrogs fallen Maia or something. (I'm not sure on the latter, so ignore me if I'm wrong)

But I like to think that he couldn't create, because that would completely revoke any power Eru had over the Vala. He created them, and if they could create, then they would be as powerful as He. So I believe that he could not create something from nothing.

And besides, if he could have created these beings, why didn't he just make millions of them and wipe everything else off of the earth? Answer me that...
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Old 06-26-2004, 04:23 PM   #45
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i'll give you a twisting of the elves, but raising an army takes time...not just like a snap of fingers
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Old 06-26-2004, 05:00 PM   #46
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well guys you must forgive me as i'm new at this and i'm not as well versed as some of you, but according to J,E,A Tyler. Dragon kind was already in middle earth before the comming of Morgoth and he turned them to evil ways. so i'm led to believe that morgoth didn't make them. but they were baad anyway
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Old 06-27-2004, 11:54 AM   #47
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Thanks for agreeing with me, Gurthang. That does makes sense. Why would Eru create something just as powerful as he if he needed to have some sort of dominion over them?
Besides, evil, as is said, cannot create. Only modify what is already there. So I stand by what I said; Dragons were already there, before Melkor ran to Middle Earth and found them.
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Old 06-28-2004, 05:38 PM   #48
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I agree with PaleStar and Gurthang.

It is specifically said (Sil, I think) that Morgoth couldn't create life since his rebellion against Eru. (Yeah, Aulė created the dwarves, but they were given own life by Eru (something like "otherwise they would only be able to move when your thought was with them").)

Morgoth did take elves and twist them into orcs.
Quote:
i'll give you a twisting of the elves, but raising an army takes time...not just like a snap of fingers
Who said he didn't have time? I think the first appearance of orcs were at the time of the first battle in the Beleriand Wars, which he won (didn't lose all his armies). He had had thousands of years to raise an army. After Dagor-nuin-Giliath (loss), he had 75 years until the next big battle, Dagor Aglareb, to breed a new army. And I think anyone would try to do anything with Morgoth's whip over your head.
Then it took almost 400 years until they came out in great numbers again. The Earth's population has grown with billions in that time. So I don't think that was a problem.

Balrogs were another thing. They were fallen maia, who served Morgoth more or less willingly, stuck in those big, fiery bodies. He might have created their bodies, but not their souls.

Now, the big problem. Where the heck did the Fell Beasts come from? I think that they were either Sauron's attempt of making dragons, like Gurthang said, or some failed creation of Morgoth, perhaps a first sketch of the winged dragons, maybe thrown out of Angband and taken over by Sauron. A third possibility is that they were already existant, maybe in the far south/east and found and bred by Sauron as a cool feature for the Nazgūl.
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