Learning Quenya - Discussion Thread

[Lhunardawen]

I suggested it, but I did not live up to it myself.

I realized it would be quite weird to insert a single Quenya word into a myriad of English words. That would make the lone Quenya word so...lonely.

But I did try to help all of us Werewolf VII participants, didn't I? Playing the game alone is so nerve-wracking, then here goes me trying to make things much more complicated.

Oh well.

(End of Lhunacy. )

[the guy who be short]

Aiya vendi (ar Lúmen).

August is approaching, and the first poetry competition was set to begin on the 1st of September. However, the minimal requirement for being able to actually write in sentences or phrases is Lesson Five. As far as I know, only Kath and I have completed this.

There also only seem to be six of us - Kath, Enca, Fea, Lhuna, spawn and I - who are actively participating on this thread, and, presumably, actively learning Quenya. It would be foolish to start the poetry competition before at least most of us six have reached lesson five.

Long story short - do you all, and the four other people explicitly mentioned, feel that you will have got to lesson five by the first of september, with enough spare time to do some writing, or not? I'm widely anticipating a "no," so the competition could be set back a month to the First October

Thoughts? Comments? I'm interested to see how far other groups have got, and whether the four quieter people have started yet.

By the way - personal info here - I've just started writing my first Quenya poem. It will doubtless be full of horrendous grammatical errors which will later have to be rectified, but it's still really cool writing in Quenya.

[Kitanna]

Oro and I made it through lesson one, but Oro has told me of RL problems. So it looks like we will not be going on to lesson 2 very quickly. Which makes me sad, but RL problems are RL problems.

[Encaitare]

Fea and I have both read lessons 1 and 2, but due to some RL conflicts we had to cut our discussion short. We'll be resuming this Monday to finish the two up, and then assuming we work steadily through August, we should be ready by September.

[Orominuialwen]

I'm sorry, but Kitanna's right. I may have to go out of town at any time to attend to the funeral of a family member, but I have no definite idea of when that will be, or how long I'll be gone, except that it's likely I'll have to go sometime in the next few days. Once I get back, we'll be able to get on with the lessons.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

By the way - personal info here - I've just started writing my first Quenya poem.

That's really cool, congratulations!

Lhuna and I have successfylly finished lesson 3. I'd believe that we are done with lesson 5 before September.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It's true... life got really busy. While I might be done with Lesson 5 by September, having September 1st as our poetry competition start is absolutely irrevocably impossible for me. I'll be moving into college that day and then trapped in four days freshman orientation, and after that, I'll be adjusting to classes. So I have little access to the internet at best for the first week of September.

[the guy who be short]

Firstly, Feanor - September 1st would be the date that poetry starts to be submitted, presumably you would have started writing it in late August. So the question is really, could you get to lesson 5 by late August AND have time to write (what you feel is good) poetry?

Orominuialwen - I'm sorry to hear that, and it's entirely understandable of course. I don't expect people to think of Quenya as a priority, even in much less important situations. It's a casual club.

Lhuna and dancing spawn look in the best position to be ready by September, but I feel that the poetry contest would end up with 4 contenders if we kept the date.

So...

The first poetry contest will be delayed to October the First. I'd been toying with this idea before as well; if the contests are to be bimonthly (once every two months, not twice a month... stupid word has two meanings) this would avoid a contest starting on the 1st of January, when people will most likely be on holiday etc.

This means everybody should have time to get up to lesson 5, and most of us would hopefully get past it, allowing for more complex language and better quality poetry.

By the way, four lines into my first poem, I realised that we don't learn how to use pronouns until about lesson 12. Which means until then, our poetry will be full of proper nouns. Oh well.

For those of you interested in creating rhymes in your poems, the Ardalambion wordlists feature a "reverse wordlist" to help find rhymes. Unfortunately, Quenya is so heavily inflected (I stole that phrase from the course, yes) that it isn't of huge use. The other wordlists can of course be used to help in poetry.

Finally, CaptainofDespair and durelin have just joined our ranks.

[/Rambling]

[Lhunardawen]

You ended the rambling, tgwbs, but you did not even start it!

[the guy who be short]

Pretty much all I say is rambling.

Nilpaurion Felagund and vanwalossiel are the newest pair, by the way. Fourteen of us now...

What do people think about the competition judging? I thought that maybe we should make it a little more democratic, now that there are a larger number of us. Perhaps each Student should have one vote for a poem, and the poet with most votes wins? I think that would be a little better, maybe, and the winner of the last competition merely counts up the votes and does official, boring stuff like that?

[Durelin]

Just about done with Lesson Three. w00t. Took us several days to get started (and we have yet to do any *learning* today), but I've even been taking notes!

That's more than I do in any of my classes at school...and more than CaptainofDespair will ever do.

Wordlists are useful...of course I've started my own wordlist in my boredom and innocent enthusiasm.

And, democracy sounds good, even with its flaws. As does October.

Rambling is simply a lesser form of ranting, and is a constituent of it. Ranting is a more direct form of rambling, but can easily still be as lengthy and, though it is painful to say, can be as boring.



Note: Ranting can also be disjointed to add to its poignancy...

EDIT: We have cookies?!

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Just about done with Lesson Three. w00t. Took us several days to get started (and we have yet to do any *learning* today), but I've even been taking notes!

That's more than I do in any of my classes at school...and more than CaptainofDespair will ever do.

Wait...are you implying I've taken notes? How dare you!

Yesh, yesh...we have to do learning today. I suppose tonight on the phone, after my mid-evening nap.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

This is for those who have reached lesson 4, well, and everyone who intend to reach lesson 4.

The grammar instructions aren't absolute concerning the use of is/are and if I understood correctly, we can choose wether to use the English word order or to place the verb is/are to the end of a sentence. For example, we can say "the book is red" in two different ways and both of them are equally fine.

1) I parma ná carnë = The book is red
2) I parma carnë ná = The book red is

Ardalambion says that it's just a matter of taste where to place the verb. So, which word order do you prefer?

There's also a possibility to leave the copula (is/are) right out and just say "I parma carnë" meaning "The book [is] red". Again, which way do you use?

I for one think that it's easier to understand Quenya when you use the copula so you don't have to bother your brain too much thinking wether an adjective is being an attribute or a predicative. The English word order is undoubtedly quite natural for many of us. However, I think "I parma carnë ná" sounds more poetic than "I parma ná carnë". What do you think?

[the guy who be short]

Being an Englishman with English as my primary language (I actually learnt it second, but I think in it now, so it's most important to me) I find it easiest to stick with the English order,

The same question arises in Lesson 5 with verbs - the sentence could be

I Eldar mápea i Nauco.
The Elves seize the Dwarf.
I Eldar i Nauco mápea.
The Elves the Dwarf seize.
I Nauco i Eldar mápea.
The Dwarf the Elves seize.

In sentences, I prefer the English method of object-verb-subject, but in poetry, it's very handy, because you can shift things around to match rhyming patterns (which I'm very fond of). When writing poetry, I use whatever order I like.

As for leaving ná off completely... I don't think I could cope with that. Too much brain strain, like you said.

[Durelin]

I actually prefer the verb at the end of the sentence. But only be cause I'm used to translating Latin...

But, as TGWBS said, it's useful to be able to put it in whatever order you'd like... It's sad that you can't do that with English...shows you what kind of language we have, doesn't it?

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by durelin

But, as TGWBS said, it's useful to be able to put it in whatever order you'd like... It's sad that you can't do that with English...shows you what kind of language we have, doesn't it?

Technically, you can do whatever you like in poetry. As long as it's still intelligible, anything goes.

Originally Posted by durelin

We have cookies?!

Yes.

Actually, durelin, learning every single day? Good luck to you! Kath and I are going at a rate of about one lesson per week, which we think works quite well.

Does anybody here (who has got to lesson three) like to put the adjective after the noun?

I parma carne - The book red
Instead of
I carne parma - The red book.

Again, it's incredibly handy that you can use both, because it makes it that much easier to rhyme. I prefer the English method in sentences though.

[Encaitare]

Ye Olde Short One, I personally prefer the way which mirrors the English form, because it's what I am used to. But, like you said, in poetry anything goes!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Does anybody here (who has got to lesson three) like to put the adjective after the noun?

I parma carne - The book red
Instead of
I carne parma - The red book.

Again, I think that the first version is more poetic and I think I even know why. In old Finnish poems and song lyrics the word order is similar to "I parma carnë" - noun comes before an adjective. I think I'm going to use both ways in my writings even if I don't make them rhyme (so it won't be necessary).

So, when can we have cookies?

[Lhunardawen]

I suppose in answering the exercises we can use the 'English' format for greater ease. But, as everyone else already said, we can play around with the order when writing Quenya poetry. I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun? Like

I carnë parma (of Westmarch ) - you just have to know it is a red book

as opposed to

I parma carnë - the book (is) red...it is 'more important' for you to know the color of the book than the book instead

or something like that in a smaller scale?

EDIT: How do we avail of these cookies, tgwbs?

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by She who was Spawned

Again, I think that the first version is more poetic and I think I even know why. In old Finnish poems and song lyrics the word order is similar to "I parma carnë" - noun comes before an adjective.

Technically, this can be done in English too. To quote the Lay of Leithian:

‘twas sewn with golden lilies fair

And other such instances.

I think I'll simply use whichever seems more aesthetically pleasing at the time. That's what Quenya is all about, after all.

Originally Posted by The Lhunatic

I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun?

I'd disagree with that actually. I think it was just a feature of the language, rather than having any effect on emphasis; the red book and the book red being interchangable. Looking at the examples given in the exercise, I don't think there's any reason to think that having the adjective after the noun emphasises it, though it may look liek that to native English speakers.

Originally Posted by Lhunspawnlin

We have cookies?!
So, when can we have cookies?
How do we avail of these cookies, tgwbs?

Well, to be honest, the reference to cookies was false advertising. The idea is, people see my siggy and think "Ooh! Cookies! I like cookies..." *click* Then they come to Quenya, and it's such a lovely idea they forget about the cookies.

[Durelin]

Actually, durelin, learning every single day? Good luck to you!

Well, not every day. But most. It's just like my Latin classes...everyday. (Well, during the school year...) I just enjoy it, so if I find myself at all bored (which is pretty often, since I have no life), then I study Quenya. The thrill of learning a language is just wonderful. Believe me, I really feel that way. No, really.

Well, to be honest, the reference to cookies was false advertising. The idea is, people see my siggy and think "Ooh! Cookies! I like cookies..." *click*

I almost clicked a few days ago, forgetting I had already joined...

[vanwalossien]

Oh, I can make cookies. Anyone who shows up at my work on tuesday to keep me company is welcome to lembas (or chocolate cookies, mmmm, chocolate.. ). Silly job, giving me no time for more important things, like learning Quenya...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Many regrets, but I've got to bow out of learning Quenya for awhile. A few weeks at the least. Why did nobody think to tell you that the month before college is busy?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Lhuna

I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun?

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I'd disagree with that actually. I think it was just a feature of the language, rather than having any effect on emphasis; the red book and the book red being interchangable. Looking at the examples given in the exercise, I don't think there's any reason to think that having the adjective after the noun emphasises it, though it may look liek that to native English speakers.

Actually, Lhuna has a point there. This following extract is from lesson 4.

In Quenya, it is however also permissible to let the adjective follow the noun. For instance, Markirya has anar púrëa for "a bleared sun", literally "(a) sun bleared", and in LR:47 we have mallë téra, literally "road straight", for "a straight road" (cf. LR:43). Perhaps this word order is used if you want to emphasize the adjective: the context in LR:47 indicates that this is a straight road as opposed to a bent one. However, letting the adjective follow the noun may be the normal word order in the case of an adjectival "title" that is used in conjunction with a proper name: In UT:305 cf. 317 we have Elendil Voronda for "Elendil the Faithful"

We are now moving to lesson 5 with Lhuna!

[the guy who be short]

The "perhaps" seems to show a bit of uncertainty on Helge's part. I'd say it's open to interpretation.

Feanor, do you think you'll be coming back to us afterwards? Enca, are you sure you're fine learning by yourself?

Kath has also gone for two weeks (holiday) so we've temporarily paused too.

Is anybody else having Quenya hallucinations in real life? I just read The Island of Doctor Moreau and one of my first thoughts was "Moreau! Aha! 'Tis a linguistic pun, Mor meaning dark and Eau meaning water in French and... Quenya."

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm going to try, but since I'm not positive I'll have time, I won't promise. I'd like to get into the swing of college before I add extras. If that makes sense.

[Encaitare]

Enca, are you sure you're fine learning by yourself?

I'm doing quite well... I've nearly finished Lesson 5.

I know that before I said I liked the word order which mirrors English, but now that I actually try it, I find the noun+adjective form more appealing. Maybe it's because of my love of Spanish, maybe when I speak a language which is not English I automatically want to swap it around like in Spanish. I don't know. I'm probably going to be highly erratic with my order until I decide which I like better.

[Lhunardawen]

tgwbs:

Immaturity aside, what lesson were you and Kath in before she left?

[the guy who be short]

Faya: I understand completely. Kath and I intend to go a lot slower once college starts up in September. If you can find time though, great!

Enca: Well... if you're sure. Good luck! Also:

I'm probably going to be highly erratic with my order until I decide which I like better.

Why choose?

Lhunatic: Lesson 7. Odd, I swear I said that before, but I can't find it anywhere. That's the future/aorist [different present] tenses lesson.

To be completely honest, I keep peaking ahead to find out how to say certain things for my poem, so I know quite a few extra bits which, strictly speaking, I shouldn't yet. I'm also thinking of looking at a few lessons myself and then doing them again with Kath afterwards (which would only increase my surety in them).

Oddly enough, the only thing Kath and I are finding difficult is memorising vocabulary. There just seems to be so much of it...

[Encaitare]

I finished lesson 8 last night, and what I am finding the hardest is remembering how to form the different tenses. The vocabulary is not too hard for me because I remember a lot of the words from Quenya poems like Markirya.

I started lesson 9, but the whole thing with the negatives and the infinitive started to confuse me. I think I'll spend some time letting it all sink in so I can actually remember the tenses and such.

[Lhunardawen]

tgwbs, so what you (I mean we) have to be doing to compose a Quenya poem is to think it up first in English, then translate it to Quenya? We are ignorant, yess, preciouss. We've never created poemsess in an un-native language before.

[the guy who be short]

Congratulations Enca for getting further than me so very quickly. I can't yet use the first person, so:
TGWBS laita Encaitare.

Lhunatic: I'm trying to put a very specific peace of prose into poetic form, so yes, I think in English first and then translate. However, as I'm going for the rhyming effect, once I do one line, I have to search for something in context to rhyme with it.

Incidentally, the reverse Quenya wordlist isn't as up to date (is that all one word...?) as the normal wordlists, so I'd advise carefully checking any words you find there with another wordlist before you use it.

*Wanders off*

[Durelin]

Congrats, Enca!

The good Captain and I have gotten behind. Namely because I have a summer project I need to get done by Monday, which I of course waited to start until...well, a few days ago.

Just for reference, I'm assuming the poems are going to be 'free verse', since going too far on structure when we're learning a new language would just be whacky. About how long of a poem do you think we should go for? I think we can do better than a Haiku (not that I have anything against them), but I'm not thinking 50 lines or anything...

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Oddly enough, the only thing Kath and I are finding difficult is memorising vocabulary. There just seems to be so much of it...

This might sound very grammar school, but vocab cards really do help.

-Dury the bored

[Joy]

I would love to join I used to study Quenya all the time, but due to health and family concerns, I had to stop. It has been over a year since I have even been to this site.

[Encaitare]

Thanks, TGWBS and Durelin. I've progressed pretty quickly only because I really have nothing to do in the wee hours of the morn.

And welcome back, Joy!

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Durelinwen

Just for reference, I'm assuming the poems are going to be 'free verse', since going too far on structure when we're learning a new language would just be whacky. About how long of a poem do you think we should go for? I think we can do better than a Haiku (not that I have anything against them), but I'm not thinking 50 lines or anything...

"Poetry competition" means just that - any poetry will be accepted. It's not up to me to set limits to your creativity, is it now? Personally, I think a Haiku would actually be quite difficult - you have to squeeze so much in! Free verse will be accepted, of course, as will anything else (I'm aiming for one rhyming poem [started] and one metric poem, but I'm often told I'm nuts. ).
As for length, again, whatever you want. Even two lines can be startlingly beautiful. There'll be no limits either way. My poem is becoming epic length startlingly quickly though (not a very good thing if I aim to keep people interested!).

Joy: Firstly, welcome back! I'm a fellow returner, I came back a few months ago. It's truly great getting to know all the new people (most of whom have more posts than me, actually, but I shall call them new nonetheless...).
If you're interested in finding a Quenya study buddy, please check this thread. Alternatively, if you prefer to work by yourself, just let me know and you can start straight away.

Originally Posted by Encaitare

I've progressed pretty quickly only because I really have nothing to do in the wee hours of the morn.

I wish I could think of something witty to say but, as I can't, I'll just settle for a "When do you sleep, lass!?!"

[Joy]

I need to work by myself, due to health. I just don't have time to get on like I used to and coorosponde.

I am used to self study, esp in Languages. I have learned 4 on my own (Greek, Hebrew, Old English - and part of French and German).

I will check out these threads more Thanks!!!

And welcome back yourself. I do remember you from last year.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Short Stuff

"When do you sleep, lass!?!"

Since it's the summer... about from 2:30 - 11:30 AM. I get plenty of sleep, the cycle is just skewed by a few hours.

Originally Posted by Joy

I am used to self study, esp in Languages. I have learned 4 on my own (Greek, Hebrew, Old English - and part of French and German).

Wow. Kudos to you!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have just written my very first poem in Quenya!

Ok, that was the good news. The bad news is that it's probably full of mistakes and I have to learn a few more lessons before I can really finish it. I wrote it first in English but I noticed pretty quickly that I have to make it much more simple so it corresponds with my Q. skills even a little better. It was hard to write without past tense, prepositions (except "nu") personal pronouns and whatnot. But I'm getting there!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Maybe a little off topic but couldn't resist. I just saw this in the best signature thread: "Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?"
It took me a while to understand that it wasn't Finnish and there wasn't anything funny in it. Do you see any similarities in it with this sentence: Simani julma niin eltaantuva. It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid". Anyway, beautiful language this Quenya, is it not?