Power - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 10-21-2002, 02:29 PM

Power in Middle Earth was definitely not simple physical prowess. Everyone knows that. I'd be willing to bet Eomer could beat Aragorn arm-wrestling. And in a fist fight, I'd pick Glorfindel over Elrond. But we all know that it's not just strength or talent. It is mental. Tolkien had such a love of intelligence. Galadriel, lady of Lorien is more powerful than her Grey-Elf husband. We all know this. But as for simple physical prowess, there is no doubt that the A-List is the likes of Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil, Glorfindel, Ecthelion (To the max), Boromir, and the sons of Elrond. All the great warriors are great, but when in a power comparison we seem to take the side of the gifted. Elrond was talented, he could definitely kick some butt. Same goes for Sauron, Feanor, etc... But they all possessed a little more than the usual talent. Whether some fateful bloodlines and a Maia for a great grannie, or being a Maia themselves. Now here's the clincher. I think in just basic weapons expertise, swordsmanship and agility the greatest warrior ever was; Ecthelion. That is an obvioius choice, no doubt as he slaid hundreds of trolls and Gothmog himself. Why not a Balrog as most powerful warrior? Well since a Balrog is made from material that kills people, and are significantly larger, they don't count. Not to mention that Ecthelion took out their leader. Next I'd go with Feanor, since he was greatest of great. But Gothmog killed him (with some help of course) and therefore he as a mere fighter wasn't as skilled. We all know he could shape great crafts and gems, forge great armours and weapons and was remarkably powerful, but that was in a 'magical' kind of way. No not magic, just elf skill. But you get the point. (I don't doubt in a battle Feanor would waste Ecthelion, but ECT was simply a warrior of Gondolin and had nowhere near the amount of 'gifts' just a sword and some talent.) Now, some may not agree with me but Glorfindel was not second most. He was valiant in sacrificing himself to save Tuor and the folks, but I think the fall killed the Balrog. No the honor of next greatest goes to Mablung. Beleg and a few others also (maybe Celeborn) go there as well. Now I know that the Vanyar and Noldor all have much more 'power' than these Sylvan elves, but we are talking about basic combat here.

Galorme · 10-22-2002, 04:03 AM

One of the only people who has been tested in nearly all respects is Felagund. He fought bravely against many and had great skill in weapons. He was a great leader; he kept his city safe from all attack for a long time. He also had great power, since he managed to wrestle for a long time with Sauron in thought and song, and even in a seeming defeat he managed to conceal him and his friend's identities. Basically he was all round powerful. But does this make him more powerful that Lúthien? She couldn’t fight (or did not), but if Felagund won a half victory with Sauron in a long battle, Lúthien won unconditionally against Morgoth and all of his armies. And maybe Ecthelion couldn’t beat anyone in the somewhat magically elfin prowess, but he sure as hell could cut the head of pretty much anyone. I think the best way of putting it is that different people have power in different ways. Would you say bravely was a form of power? How about love?

Legolas · 10-22-2002, 01:18 PM

Hmm...

Doesn't Fingolfin go in there somewhere? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Was there a particular question or thought you wanted an opinion on, or is this just a general thinking-out-loud post?

Voralphion · 10-22-2002, 07:48 PM

I think that Feanor was the most powerful elf. It says in the Silmarillion thast he was the greatest among the eldar in mind, body and spirit. I think given the chance he could have beaten Ecthelion in single combat. In single combat he could have beaten Gothmog as Ecthelion did but Feanor also had to contend with other balrogs not just Gothmog.
Also Fingolfin should be amongst the most powerful as he was the only one to compete in combat with Morgoth personally.

Elenna · 10-23-2002, 05:08 PM

I completely agree with what you about physical power vs. mental/spiritual power. I bet you that Gimli could probably beat Gandalf in arm wrestling with no outside forces used, but obviously Gandalf is more powerful.

I find that fascinating. In so many books or movies, the biggest people, the most physically imposing, are also the most powerful. Think Braveheart, for example. But Tolkien very clearly describes Gandalf as a "bent old man". Galadriel herself is a woman, and Tolkien quite plainly didn't think women were very powerful.

What I find most incredible is this - two of the littlest, least powerful people did what no one with more power could do. Frodo and Sam were two common hobbits from the backwater land of the Shire, but they performed a task that Galadriel, Gandalf, Glorfindel, Aragorn, Feanor, Fingolfin, and all the rest could not do, merely on the power of their hearts. Sounds cheesy, but that is really amazing.

Galorme · 10-23-2002, 07:26 PM

Elenna you have swayed me. Bravery is without a shadow of a doubt a part of power. Sam and Frodo, when I considered them in writing my other post, have no power. They are powerless, in a battle of strength they would be outmatched, I would guess, and of power of thought they would stand little chance as well. But they dared to do what other would not. They fought the evil of the ring. The power of the bravery in their heart was greater than the power of the song of Felagund, or the might of the Valar, for with this power they did what the others could not. They defeated the dark lord Sauron, banishing the last concentrated source of evil from Arda. That is power.

Legolas · 10-24-2002, 08:32 AM

Power is relative to one's purpose.

Matthew2754 · 10-24-2002, 12:06 PM

I know he has the advantages and stuff like being a Maia, but Eonwe is so awesome. The battle Morgoth!! omygosh!! rock on.

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 10-24-2002, 02:18 PM

This was indeed a thinking out loud post, but that thing about bravery being power-ingenious. I was trying to stay away from the magically inclined factor. And yea, verily I forgot Fingolfin (although I think he had tons of magical prowess). Frodo and Sam were indeed powerful...power is based on motive and intentions like whichever reply said. Wow, I really got more feedback and ideas than I expected.

Westerly Wizard · 10-24-2002, 03:49 PM

I think one of the great representations about power being more than just strength is Tulkas, who is the Valar that is "the greatest in strength and deeds of prowess," but is not considered among the Aratar, or eight most powerful valar. That doesn't really go with the bravery idea though.

Another interesting thing is that power does not always determine always who wins. Melkor, Sauron, and Saruman, as well as the slayings of Balrogs and Dragons, all illustrate this.

elfling · 10-24-2002, 08:06 PM

maybe true power (not just physical) comes from bravery or resolve. Frodo and Sam resolved to do their task no matter the reality of their size or strenth or intellegents. They were able to do so. The whole task was impossible almost from the beginning for all involved but the pulled it off I feel do to their powers. All had different abilities and all resolved do do all they could to finish the job. their inner strength lead them to an outer strenth.

Amarinth · 10-25-2002, 05:35 AM

tolkien agreeably has illustrated that power does not necessarily equate with physical prowess and skill, as you guys above have amply said [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. and more to this, tolkien also showed that the truest and most potent of powers consist of not just owning power, but controlling it. there is the pitfall of saruman's greed versus the triumph of gandalf's faithfulness. there is galadriel's test and her victory over her own ambition. there is the poignant, internal battle in frodo. and at all times in LOTR when some easier leap to power is cirumvented, the tides are turned to the greater good.

greyhavener · 10-26-2002, 12:26 AM

It seems to me Tolkien has created what looks like a power dichotomy. There are the tiers of the powerful such as Ea, the Maiar, the High Elves, Elves who held the rings of power, Wizards, Kings of men, other elves, beings possessing particular strengths such as the Ents, Balrog, Shelob, etc, Dwarves, Common People, Hobbits, etc. The order is arguable, but established by Ea. Those who sought to usurp authority like Saruman and Sauron, those who jockeyed for position like Grima and Lotho, even those who sought to manipulate with good intentions like Boromir and Eowyn suffered defeat.

Then there are the individuals whose power comes from a strength of character that impacts the ongoing battle between the powers of good and evil. It is indeed mostly due to this latter power that the ring is destroyed. Frodo's strength is in his determination and his willingness to submit himself to what he has been called to do. Sam's strength is his devotion and simplicity. Gollum is there only due to the strength of mercy. His presence is key because Frodo is only strong enough to get himself there, not strong enough to cast the ring into the fire, yet this is stronger than Gandalf, Galadriel, or any of the kings of men.

The effect of the rings' destruction is yet another power shift with elves diminishing and men increasing, at least within Middle Earth. The elves willingness to diminish is also strength. Aragorn's attitude throughout the story demonstrates a sacrificial strength that recognizes leadership as servanthood. The strength of his rule is in the love he bears his people and the regard he shows his subjects.

This reminds me of a scripture "Strength is made perfect in weakness."

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

10-21-2002, 02:29 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Power Power in Middle Earth was definitely not simple physical prowess. Everyone knows that. I'd be willing to bet Eomer could beat Aragorn arm-wrestling. And in a fist fight, I'd pick Glorfindel over Elrond. But we all know that it's not just strength or talent. It is mental. Tolkien had such a love of intelligence. Galadriel, lady of Lorien is more powerful than her Grey-Elf husband. We all know this. But as for simple physical prowess, there is no doubt that the A-List is the likes of Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil, Glorfindel, Ecthelion (To the max), Boromir, and the sons of Elrond. All the great warriors are great, but when in a power comparison we seem to take the side of the gifted. Elrond was talented, he could definitely kick some butt. Same goes for Sauron, Feanor, etc... But they all possessed a little more than the usual talent. Whether some fateful bloodlines and a Maia for a great grannie, or being a Maia themselves. Now here's the clincher. I think in just basic weapons expertise, swordsmanship and agility the greatest warrior ever was; Ecthelion. That is an obvioius choice, no doubt as he slaid hundreds of trolls and Gothmog himself. Why not a Balrog as most powerful warrior? Well since a Balrog is made from material that kills people, and are significantly larger, they don't count. Not to mention that Ecthelion took out their leader. Next I'd go with Feanor, since he was greatest of great. But Gothmog killed him (with some help of course) and therefore he as a mere fighter wasn't as skilled. We all know he could shape great crafts and gems, forge great armours and weapons and was remarkably powerful, but that was in a 'magical' kind of way. No not magic, just elf skill. But you get the point. (I don't doubt in a battle Feanor would waste Ecthelion, but ECT was simply a warrior of Gondolin and had nowhere near the amount of 'gifts' just a sword and some talent.) Now, some may not agree with me but Glorfindel was not second most. He was valiant in sacrificing himself to save Tuor and the folks, but I think the fall killed the Balrog. No the honor of next greatest goes to Mablung. Beleg and a few others also (maybe Celeborn) go there as well. Now I know that the Vanyar and Noldor all have much more 'power' than these Sylvan elves, but we are talking about basic combat here. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

10-22-2002, 04:03 AM	#2
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	One of the only people who has been tested in nearly all respects is Felagund. He fought bravely against many and had great skill in weapons. He was a great leader; he kept his city safe from all attack for a long time. He also had great power, since he managed to wrestle for a long time with Sauron in thought and song, and even in a seeming defeat he managed to conceal him and his friend's identities. Basically he was all round powerful. But does this make him more powerful that Lúthien? She couldn’t fight (or did not), but if Felagund won a half victory with Sauron in a long battle, Lúthien won unconditionally against Morgoth and all of his armies. And maybe Ecthelion couldn’t beat anyone in the somewhat magically elfin prowess, but he sure as hell could cut the head of pretty much anyone. I think the best way of putting it is that different people have power in different ways. Would you say bravely was a form of power? How about love? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

10-22-2002, 01:18 PM	#3
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Hmm... Doesn't Fingolfin go in there somewhere? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Was there a particular question or thought you wanted an opinion on, or is this just a general thinking-out-loud post? __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-22-2002, 07:48 PM	#4
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	I think that Feanor was the most powerful elf. It says in the Silmarillion thast he was the greatest among the eldar in mind, body and spirit. I think given the chance he could have beaten Ecthelion in single combat. In single combat he could have beaten Gothmog as Ecthelion did but Feanor also had to contend with other balrogs not just Gothmog. Also Fingolfin should be amongst the most powerful as he was the only one to compete in combat with Morgoth personally. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

10-23-2002, 05:08 PM	#5
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I completely agree with what you about physical power vs. mental/spiritual power. I bet you that Gimli could probably beat Gandalf in arm wrestling with no outside forces used, but obviously Gandalf is more powerful. I find that fascinating. In so many books or movies, the biggest people, the most physically imposing, are also the most powerful. Think Braveheart, for example. But Tolkien very clearly describes Gandalf as a "bent old man". Galadriel herself is a woman, and Tolkien quite plainly didn't think women were very powerful. What I find most incredible is this - two of the littlest, least powerful people did what no one with more power could do. Frodo and Sam were two common hobbits from the backwater land of the Shire, but they performed a task that Galadriel, Gandalf, Glorfindel, Aragorn, Feanor, Fingolfin, and all the rest could not do, merely on the power of their hearts. Sounds cheesy, but that is really amazing. __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-23-2002, 07:26 PM	#6
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Elenna you have swayed me. Bravery is without a shadow of a doubt a part of power. Sam and Frodo, when I considered them in writing my other post, have no power. They are powerless, in a battle of strength they would be outmatched, I would guess, and of power of thought they would stand little chance as well. But they dared to do what other would not. They fought the evil of the ring. The power of the bravery in their heart was greater than the power of the song of Felagund, or the might of the Valar, for with this power they did what the others could not. They defeated the dark lord Sauron, banishing the last concentrated source of evil from Arda. That is power. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

10-24-2002, 08:32 AM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Power is relative to one's purpose. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-24-2002, 12:06 PM	#8
Matthew2754 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 22	I know he has the advantages and stuff like being a Maia, but Eonwe is so awesome. The battle Morgoth!! omygosh!! rock on.

10-24-2002, 02:18 PM	#9
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	This was indeed a thinking out loud post, but that thing about bravery being power-ingenious. I was trying to stay away from the magically inclined factor. And yea, verily I forgot Fingolfin (although I think he had tons of magical prowess). Frodo and Sam were indeed powerful...power is based on motive and intentions like whichever reply said. Wow, I really got more feedback and ideas than I expected. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

10-24-2002, 03:49 PM	#10
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	I think one of the great representations about power being more than just strength is Tulkas, who is the Valar that is "the greatest in strength and deeds of prowess," but is not considered among the Aratar, or eight most powerful valar. That doesn't really go with the bravery idea though. Another interesting thing is that power does not always determine always who wins. Melkor, Sauron, and Saruman, as well as the slayings of Balrogs and Dragons, all illustrate this. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

10-24-2002, 08:06 PM	#11
elfling Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: asheville,nc Posts: 86	maybe true power (not just physical) comes from bravery or resolve. Frodo and Sam resolved to do their task no matter the reality of their size or strenth or intellegents. They were able to do so. The whole task was impossible almost from the beginning for all involved but the pulled it off I feel do to their powers. All had different abilities and all resolved do do all they could to finish the job. their inner strength lead them to an outer strenth. __________________ And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night...All shall love me and despair!

10-25-2002, 05:35 AM	#12
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	tolkien agreeably has illustrated that power does not necessarily equate with physical prowess and skill, as you guys above have amply said [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. and more to this, tolkien also showed that the truest and most potent of powers consist of not just owning power, but controlling it. there is the pitfall of saruman's greed versus the triumph of gandalf's faithfulness. there is galadriel's test and her victory over her own ambition. there is the poignant, internal battle in frodo. and at all times in LOTR when some easier leap to power is cirumvented, the tides are turned to the greater good. __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings

10-26-2002, 12:26 AM	#13
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	It seems to me Tolkien has created what looks like a power dichotomy. There are the tiers of the powerful such as Ea, the Maiar, the High Elves, Elves who held the rings of power, Wizards, Kings of men, other elves, beings possessing particular strengths such as the Ents, Balrog, Shelob, etc, Dwarves, Common People, Hobbits, etc. The order is arguable, but established by Ea. Those who sought to usurp authority like Saruman and Sauron, those who jockeyed for position like Grima and Lotho, even those who sought to manipulate with good intentions like Boromir and Eowyn suffered defeat. Then there are the individuals whose power comes from a strength of character that impacts the ongoing battle between the powers of good and evil. It is indeed mostly due to this latter power that the ring is destroyed. Frodo's strength is in his determination and his willingness to submit himself to what he has been called to do. Sam's strength is his devotion and simplicity. Gollum is there only due to the strength of mercy. His presence is key because Frodo is only strong enough to get himself there, not strong enough to cast the ring into the fire, yet this is stronger than Gandalf, Galadriel, or any of the kings of men. The effect of the rings' destruction is yet another power shift with elves diminishing and men increasing, at least within Middle Earth. The elves willingness to diminish is also strength. Aragorn's attitude throughout the story demonstrates a sacrificial strength that recognizes leadership as servanthood. The strength of his rule is in the love he bears his people and the regard he shows his subjects. This reminds me of a scripture "Strength is made perfect in weakness." [ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ] __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8