Let's take this baby for a spin, and see what it can do!

[Birdland]

OK, while posting a reply in Women vs. desire for the Ring, the thought occurred to me: Just what was it that Sauron could do with the Ring, that he couldn't do before?

Hmmmm, well, I guess it could make him invisible. But since he was a Valar, (Ooops! I mean Maia. Sorry Burra. Know that bugs you.)he could probably do that anyway.

Well, he managed to take over Nine Kings of Men. That would be handy, except after awhile they faded into wraithes, and were only good for scaring the crap out of people and chasing after wizards. And it did not seem to control any other Men, just the Nine who were wearing those lesser Rings of Power.

It also could not control Elves, which would have been great. And apparently had little effect on Dwarves, except to make them greedier, which is kind of gilding the lily, if you ask me.

Ummmmm...Oooooh! He could control Orc armies! Oh, wait - he could already do that.

Let's see. He could corrupt any person by letting them wear the Ring! Turn them into evil, nasty, horrible tyrants...who would immediately turn on him and defeat him! So, not a good idea to let someone else wear that puppy.

It made him undefeatable in battle! Oh, unless you happen to cut it off his finger. Which someone did, which kind of puts the cabosh on the "undefeatable" theory.

So, all in all, it seems that the Ring was pretty good, but not great. Actually kind of "glitchy" if you ask me.

So if Sauron HAD got the Ring back, just what could he have done with it, that he couldn't do before? And since the whole "Ring scheme" didn't work out that well the first time, what made everyone think that it would work any better the next time?

Discuss among yourselves...

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Beren87]

Well, I've heard it been said that the ring was a focus and/or amplifier for the power that he already weilded. Like...the old example was:

Sauron before ring = 3 units
Sauron focusing power in ring = 6 units
Sauron after he lost his ring = 2 unit

[Nuranar]

Way to go, Bird! I love your style! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I would look it up if I had the book at the moment, but I'll have to go from what I remember when I re-read the Fellowship over Christmas:

Sauron created his ring to dominate all the other rings, especially the three Elven rings. In order to create a ring that powerful he had to infuse it with so much of his might that losing it nearly undid him (or something to that effect).

Now, what exactly "dominate" entails I am not sure. However, I think the immense power of the One is why the Three lost their power after its destruction. This is despite the fact that they were forged before it was.

I heartily wish I could be more specific (and if I erred please gently correct me), but all I can do is try to point people in a general direction.

[Deathwail]

With Elves all but gone from Middle Earth and the might of Numenor long past there is not anything like the forces to face him as there was in his defeat when he lost the Ring so not likely he would be forced to join in the battle himself.The Nine would be far more powerful once he regained the Ring (so it says in FoTR).He is not a Valar btw he is a Maiar but i am sure you knew this.Simple fact is there is no armies left to stand up to him.

[Amarinth]

hi birdie [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

off the top of my head, i remember it said in lotr that sauron also needed the one for him to take physical form in the world once more (or something to that effect). prior to his lost of the ring he could incarnate at will- a vampire, a fair lord, etc. - but having poured his native power into the one all he could do thereafter was take shape as an evil eye wreathed in flames.

major shortfall in insight for sauron to have placed his eggs all in one basket!

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Amarinth ]

[Naldoriathil]

The Ring of Power controlled all other rings, so if he got it, he could command them to him and use them against all the races of Middle Earth. Because Elves and Men had them, with the One Ring he could have controlled them all and led to total domination of Middle-Earth.

[Deathwail]

What other rings Naldoriathil?Only rings Sauron had control over was the Seven and the Nine and he already had the ones that where left.Since he needed the Nine to control the Nazgul that only leaves the Three left from the Dwarves.I guess he could hand those out but to who?The three the Elves had where not under Saurons control as they where made by Celebrimbor hidden from Sauron so he had no control over them.

[doug*platypus]

It made him undefeatable in battle! Oh, unless you happen to cut it off his finger.

Remember this very simple inequality:

BOOK > MOVIE

The book is greater than the movie. Especially since Sauron reaching out for Isildur and *ahem* exposing his Ring, makes absolutely no sense.

Maybe you're right about the 'good but not great' Ring, I'd never thought about what would have happened if Sauron got It back. Maybe he would have been a little disappointed himself! It might have been just a big anticlimax for him.

The chief danger in him regaining the One was the control it had over the elven rings. It is implied in the book that Galadriel (and probably Elrond as well with his ring of power) is vulnerable, because of all she has accomplished through Nenya. If Sauron regained the One, Lórien would have been exposed. And it would have been better (as is stated somewhere) in this case, if the three had never existed.

It would have been interesting to see a contest of wills between Gandy and Sauron over the control of Narya. It's probable that Gandalf would not be able to use his ring of power anymore in that case. As for undoing all the works of the three, maybe everyone Gandalf had influenced with its help would revert back to how they were before!

[littlemanpoet]

I've had to give this some deal of thought, since I have taken this idea from Tolkien for my own story in which the item is the villain's sword. Anyway, one of my local writers' group readers kept on harangueing me: "Why would he put that much of his power into the sword? Seems pretty stupid to me." The only way it could make sense was that the villain was powerful before, but became MORE powerful with the sword, but in a specifically focused way that worked to his advantage with a minimum of foreseen risk. Granted, he did lose the sword, as Sauron lost the Ring, and was thus less powerful afterward. A calculated risk. The focus in the case of the Ring - is to rule the other Rings, as has been said. That leads us to another question: Why were those other Rings forged? In the case of the Seven and the Nine, we know that Sauron had them forged in order to lure and then control the Dwarves and the Men - and the Kingdoms the Rings reaped for them. As for the Three, the Elves had different reasons: to preserve the beauty of what they remembered from the Youth of Middle Earth. Question: How could Sauron use that to his advantage? This is only a guess, but perhaps he could make the Elven Rings work in an opposite way to which they were designed - or perhaps he could make them work an a heightened or more extreme way. Gandalf' fire Ring - FIRE EVERYWHERE AND OUT OF CONTROL! Galadriel's Ring - please help me out - what was its power - prescience? preservation? Both? And what of Elrond's? I can't remember. Anyway, that's my thought on the matter.

[Aratlithiel]

From:
The Silmarillion
Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency...And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

The threee Elven-rings were;
Narya - Fire (Cirdan then Gandalf)
Nenya - Water (Galadriel)
Vilya - Air (Gil-galad then Elrond)

...of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.

Glad to have been of service. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

Yes, but Sauron had no hand in helping to craft the three Elven Rings, right? So he could control the Nine, and the Seven, but not the Three.

Controlling the Nine seemed to work pretty well, at least as far as the Kings and their minions were concerned. Controlling the Seven didn't seem to do much. At least there were no Dwarven Ring-Wraiths. So he had to physically take them back. The Three he never controlled, and never could lay hands on them. All in all, a lot of effort for mixed results.

Well, if Sauron couldn't control the Three Rings the first time around, why would he be able to control, or defeat them, the second time around, that is if he did manage to get his One Ring back?

(Birdie at the Council of Elrond: )

"Explain it to me again, Elrond. I'm not following this...

"Guards! Remove her!"

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[doug*platypus]

Even though Celebrimbor made the Three on his own, the One Ring could still control them. That was why, when Sauron first wore the One and uttered the infamous inscription, the elves who wore the three (possibly only two were being worn at the time) could hear him, and they took off their rings. There would have been much less concern on the parts of Elrond and Galadriel if Sauron could not use the One to control their rings of power.

I don't believe that he would have been able to shoot fire out of Narya, or create massive floods with Nenya - I don't think the Three worked like that. Maybe if they were in Harry Potter, they would, but they aren't. I think that by using the One, Sauron would have exposed Rivendell and Lórien to attack, removing all doubt of where they were and also any security they had. Much like the Girdle of Melian being broken when Thingol was killed.

[greyhavener]

Great question, Birdland.

I agree with those who say that once Sauron regained the ring he would be able to take physical form and to defeat the elven strongholds.

Perhaps Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf because Maiar are more powerful than elves. The hope was probably that Gandalf would be able to wield it against Sauron more effectively. We never really see this happen overtly, but perhaps possessing the ring had something to do with his victory over the Balrog and emergence as Gandalf the White. (By the way, did Saruman earn his position as the white through some similar deed?)

I think the time of the elves in Middle Earth was over either way it went and they all knew it. Maybe the hope was that another Maiar, although less powerful than Sauron, might be able to defeat him.

Here's another question. If Saruman was the white why did Gandalf have the third elven ring? Are elves more perceptive concerning potential character flaws than Maiar?

[Kuruharan]

Let's see. He could corrupt any person by letting them wear the Ring! Turn them into evil, nasty, horrible tyrants...who would immediately turn on him and defeat him! So, not a good idea to let someone else wear that puppy.

Nobody else could do that except for possibly Gandalf. If anybody else claimed the Ring they would have to fight Sauron for the title of Dark Lord. And nobody, except maybe Gandalf, had even a prayer of a chance of winning that encounter. The Ring was Sauron's, and the Ring was always trying to get back to him. Once Sauron was personally confronted by the upstart the Ring might just rip off the hand of the pretender and fly right back onto the finger of Sauron, where it belonged. Letter 246 has a number of interesting things to say about this issue.

off the top of my head, i remember it said in lotr that sauron also needed the one for him to take physical form in the world once more (or something to that effect).

I agree with those who say that once Sauron regained the ring he would be able to take physical form and to defeat the elven strongholds.

He already had a physical form. Note Gollum's "he has only four on the Black Hand but they are enough" comment. Gollum was the only one of the main characters that had been in the presence of Sauron (recently) so we have to take his word for it. It also says he does in Letter 246.

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Birdland]

Nobody else could do that except for possibly Gandalf...

You probably are right, Kuruharan, though everyone who was tempted by the Ring seems to think they had a good shot at controlling it. Galadriel certainly seemed to think so: "In place of the Dark Lord, you would have a Queen!" She resisted temptation, not because she would be controlled by Sauron, but that she would replace him, and eventually become just like him.

Of course, that could be just a deceit that the Ring inspired: "Go on. Put me on. You know you want to. If you put me on, I'll be your best friend." And the minute they did put it on they would be snatched up (physically or mentally) by Sauron. But Tolkien really doesn't imply this.

As for Sauron getting it back from whomever had it; when Frodo puts on the Ring at Mt. Doom, it throws Sauron into a panic. Though he must have known that Frodo would not now try to destroy the Ring. And as good as Frodo was, he was in no way capable of controlling such a powerful instrument. Yet Sauron could not reach out himself, either physically or mentally, and reclaim the Ring. He had to call out to his Nazgul to fly back to Mordor lickity-split and fetch it for him.

Now if it was my One Ring, I would have had it "programmed" to yank Frodo back from the edge just as he put it on, and drag him back to the Dark Tower with its own supernatural force.

But nooooo...all it can do is sit there on the finger silently yelling "Hey, I'm here! Come get me!"

See what I mean: glitchy.

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Angry Hill Troll]

At one point in TTT (I don't remember the exact point but I want to say it's after meeting Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn--certainly before Helm's deep), Gandalf makes the following statement:

...But Isengard could not fight Mordor, not unless Saruman first obtained the Ring. That he will never do now...

To me, Gandalf's qualification about the Ring in his statement says that Gandalf believes that Saruman would be able to fight Sauron if he were to obtain the Ring. By "fight" I think is meant "fight and have a reasonable chance of winning" (anyone can fight Sauron, they just aren't going to win! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Of course, the only difference in the long run is you have a Dark Lord with a different symbol and an "m" in his name.

I would tend not to underestimate Galadriel either. Remember that she was accounted the most gifted of all the Noldor in Aman (with the possible exception of Fëanor--Fëanor with the Ring, now that's a scary thought
[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ) In the appendices of ROTK, it is stated that during the War of the Ring, Lorien was attacked from Dol Guldor. The attack was unsuccessful, for

besides the valiance of the elven archers, there was a power there that none could overcome, unless Sauron were to come there himself.

Some of that power was Nenya, but I believe most of it was Galadriel herself.

This is a little like the recent thread of "who would win in a contest between Gandalf and Sauron?" It sort of misses the point. The true strength of Galadriel and Gandalf is that they are smart enough to foresee where the path of taking the Ring for themselves will lead, and possess enough self-control to refuse it. It never dawned on Sauron that anyone would be capable of this.

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Kuruharan]

As for Sauron getting it back from whomever had it; when Frodo puts on the Ring at Mt. Doom, it throws Sauron into a panic. Though he must have known that Frodo would not now try to destroy the Ring. And as good as Frodo was, he was in no way capable of controlling such a powerful instrument. Yet Sauron could not reach out himself, either physically or mentally, and reclaim the Ring. He had to call out to his Nazgul to fly back to Mordor lickity-split and fetch it for him.

The whole snatching it back from whoever held it was contingent upon the person in question actually being in Sauron's direct physical presence. Obviously what either Sauron or his servants were not there to prevent, well, they could not directly prevent.

Now if it was my One Ring, I would have had it "programmed" to yank Frodo back from the edge just as he put it on, and drag him back to the Dark Tower with its own supernatural force.

That was more or less exactly what happened. However, the Ring did not need to yank Frodo back from the abyss. (An idea which in itself presents several interesting physiological and willpower problems that I will leave out for the moment.) Frodo's will was broken. He could not destroy the Ring. There was no need to "drag" Frodo to the Barad-dur because the Nazgul would be there shortly and because they were already at a place where Sauron's power was greatest.

But nooooo...all it can do is sit there on the finger silently yelling "Hey, I'm here! Come get me!"

As I said, that was all that was really needed.

To me, Gandalf's qualification about the Ring in his statement says that Gandalf believes that Saruman would be able to fight Sauron if he were to obtain the Ring.

Gandalf was not Tolkien. Tolkien could, and did, disagree with the opinions of his characters in several places in the story. This might be one of those times.

I would tend not to underestimate Galadriel either.

Who is underestimating her?

Remember that she was accounted the most gifted of all the Noldor in Aman

Fëanor with the Ring, now that's a scary thought

Not particularly, except in the sense that the Ring would quickly find its way into the hand of Sauron. I don't think that these mere incarnates had what it took to master the Ring. It would master them and then take them straight to its REAL master. It would cloud their thinking, inflame their delusions of grandeur, and lead them on to utter and irreversible defeat.

This is rather similar to what Sauron did to Numenor, now that I stop to think of it.

The true strength of Galadriel and Gandalf is that they are smart enough to foresee where the path of taking the Ring for themselves will lead, and possess enough self-control to refuse it. It never dawned on Sauron that anyone would be capable of this.

Bingo!

[Rimbaud]

The need to get it back always seemed to me less about getting more powerful and more about trying to ensure his survival. Rather similar in concept to the myth of the old king who hides his heart in a stone so that no-one will hurt it. Sauron's life-force is bound to the Ring. You would rather want to hang on to that, in such a situation, no?

The point being he made a grievious error in commmitting so much of himself to ol' Don Ringelo. He needed One Ring to rule them all, he knew that when he began the deceit of the Races; he did not know that it would, in a physical sense, cripple him to create it.

[Angry Hill Troll]

The need to get it back always seemed to me less about getting more powerful and more about trying to ensure his survival.

I disagree with you somewhat on that point. Sauron seems to be afraid that someone would use the ring against him. I suppose Kuruharan and I will have differing opinions on how justified this fear was in the case of anyone but Gandalf.

-One example is when Pippin looks into the Palantir, and Sauron clearly believes that Saruman has the hobbits, and the Ring, at Isengard. He tells Pippin to tell Saruman that "this trifle" is not for him. Why? I think it can only be because he is afraid Saruman might use it himself.

Of course Sauron was being incredibly dense in trying to convince Saruman that the Ring was "a trifle". In one version of the Nazgul's stop at Isengard on the way to the shire in UT, Saruman says to the Witch-King.

I know what you seek...if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it.

It ought to be obvious to Sauron that Saruman knows all about the Ring!

-When Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron in the Palantir, why does Sauron panic and attack Minas Tirith prematurely? At this point he seems to think that Aragorn has the Ring and has used it to defeat Saruman (which is apparently confirmed when a Nazgul is sent to do aerial surveillance on Isengard and finds it in ruins). If Aragorn couldn't possibly use the Ring without it falling back into Sauron's hands, and couldn't possibly do any serious damage to Sauron without the Ring, then what does Sauron have to be scared of?

If Sauron's only worry is that someone might destroy the Ring, and him with it, then all he has to do is stand guard in the doorway to the Cracks of Doom! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

I just typed the whole thing out, and then lost it, so let's just say check "The Council of Elrond", page 281, paragraph three. Elrond state that if the Wise were to take the Ring, they would defeat Sauron, but become in time exactly like him.

There was no need to "drag" Frodo to the Barad-dur because the Nazgul would be there shortly and because they were already at a place where Sauron's power was greatest.

Well, if Sauron wasn't worried, he should have been. The Ring was not able to protect itself from destruction, and Sauron was not able to retrieve it. All he could do sit on the edge of his throne and hope his lackys got there in time to recapture it.

And while we're at it; let's harken back to The Hobbit. If the Ring was trying to escape from Gollum, why did it just lie there and let a schmuck like Bilbo pick it up? If it had been my Ring, I would have "programmed" it to roll across Middle-earth right on back to Mordor.

But noooo...instead it gets passed around by a bunch of Hobbits that treat like it's a Cracker Jack toy, while everyone around them wonders if they had plastic surgery.

Some magic ring. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Kuruharan]

I'm afraid that you do not understand what I mean.

I suppose Kuruharan and I will have differing opinions on how justified this fear was in the case of anyone but Gandalf.

You and Tolkien have differing opinions on the matter as well. I leave it to your reasoning to decide who has the strongest grasp on the inner workings of the story.

I'm not talking about what the characters themselves believed about the Ring and what was happening. I would be the first to declare that Sauron was petrified by the thought of someone taking the Ring and using it against him. I am talking about what Tolkien said.

If Aragorn couldn't possibly use the Ring without it falling back into Sauron's hands, and couldn't possibly do any serious damage to Sauron without the Ring, then what does Sauron have to be scared of?

As I have said before in this thread, and will have to say again (in this very post no less), that what the characters know and what Tolkien knows are two different things. I am talking (and have been talking throughout) about what Tolkien knew. Tolkien specifically denied, by name, that Aragorn could have defeated Sauron in this manner. Sauron however did not know that this was in the mind of his sub-creator or he might have been a more relaxed, more easy-going Dark Lord. A kinder, gentler, less paranoid Dark Lord. Well, maybe just more relaxed.

Elrond state that if the Wise were to take the Ring, they would defeat Sauron

I refer you to my answers above regarding what Tolkien knew vs. what his characters knew.

Well, if Sauron wasn't worried, he should have been. The Ring was not able to protect itself from destruction, and Sauron was not able to retrieve it. All he could do sit on the edge of his throne and hope his lackys got there in time to recapture it.

I did not say that Sauron was not worried. However, only the most freakish divine intervention could have destroyed the Ring at that point. Without even intending it (apparently) Sauron protected the only place in the world where the Ring could be destroyed about as thoroughly as possible. It was physically difficult to get to, giving the Ring plenty of time to break the will of the Bearer, which it did. Then at the Crack of Doom, Sauron's power was stronger there than any other place (with the likely exception of his direct physical presence). By that point the Ringbearer, any Ringbearer I fancy, would be unable to destroy the Ring because they would no longer want to, pretty effective don't you think?

The only way the Ring could be destroyed at that moment is if 1) Frodo had the highly unlikely urge to throw himself into the Crack of Doom 2) the person along with the Ringbearer pushes the Ringbearer into the Crack of Doom, however for a variety of reasons this would be unlikely. And finally you have option 3) a freakish piece of divine intervention, not to be expected in the usual course of events (or even at all), even though this is the way that it played out.

However, as I said above, this was all unintentional. Until the moment he realized what was going on, he could not conceive of anyone wanting to destroy his Ring. Ironically, if it were not for Gollum, the exact moment that he found out the plan he was suddenly safer than at any time since the Last Alliance because the Ringbearer had claimed the Ring and would not destroy it, and was utterly incapable of keeping Sauron from reclaiming it. However, Sauron probably did not have time to think all this through.

And while we're at it; let's harken back to The Hobbit. If the Ring was trying to escape from Gollum, why did it just lie there and let a schmuck like Bilbo pick it up? If it had been my Ring, I would have "programmed" it to roll across Middle-earth right on back to Mordor.

Getting back to those earlier physiological problems I talked about in my earlier post, the Ring was after all just a ring. It did not have arms and legs or any ability to move on its own. It needed somebody to carry it. It could work on the will of the Bearer, but it could not move on its own. It was just a ring.

And before there are any remarks about giving it arms and legs, I’d like to say that then it would not really be a ring anymore, would it?

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Bêthberry]

Birdie's take on the Ring: "Yoo hoo, if you want me, come and get me." I think someone stole her idea, don't you?

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps the creation of the Ring was a mistake of massive hubris.

And as for their effect on the Three, perhaps all the rings worked like light-energy, on a certain frequency and bandwidth (this is of course all hypothetical, and worse, mostly figurative...but hopefully you'll get the idea)

Therefore, just like radios operating on the same bandwidth, each interferes with its fellows. They can be used to locate eachother, and some of them were made weak enough (by Sauron's "help") that they could be completely overwhelmed by the power of the one.

The Rings that Sauron helped make can be directly controlled--to a degree. They all corrupted absolutely, but it could only work with the natural desires their bearers already had. With Men, they corrupted their desire for life and power, but the Dwarves desired only wealth, and the corruption of that desire made them too miserly and insular to be useful weapons.

But the Three...they could not be controlled, but I think they could still be heavily interfered with. Sauron could not directly corrupt or reach the bearers, but he knew where they were, and he could subtly affect them. The One could not interfere at a level strong enough to control them, but to affect their reception, to affect the works done with them...to tempt their bearers. I don't think the bearers removed their rings because they felt Sauron could control them; if he could, could they have removed the rings? I think they removed them because they feared the constant temptation, feared the tiny corruptions of their works, whose impact they might not see for millenia.

And as for why the destruction of the One rendered the Three powerless...I think the sudden release of that much power, on the "bandwidth" the Rings were tuned to receive and alter, burned the Rings out, so to speak. Like an EMP.