Hin Hurin

[Urwen]

I'm starting this for something actually bothered me for a few months now. I re-read The Children of Hurin. And I must say: I'm in horror. Even if the children of Hurin did have fault of the blood, so to say, I must point out that...

THEY AREN'T THEIR FATHER!

Even Morgoth, as twisted as he is, should know this. He was created by Eru. Was he like Eru? No.

Few others he probably knew. Was Maeglin like his Mother? No.

No one is mirror image of their father or mother, not in looks and even lesser in spirit.

So, why? Why did Morgoth curse Hin Hurin, therefore losing one of his chances to learn information of Gondolin location?

But no, he rapidly cursed them (us) to death, therefore losing his chance for one of them (us) to tell him of Gondolin.

Three innocent lives were wasted... and he gained nothing. Except maybe his own twisted pleasure...

He was a fool and a sadist. Nothing more.

There. Got all of my anger out.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think it was more of a psychological torture - since Hurin would not yield under personal threats and physical pain, Morgoth, the clever sod that he was, decided to take a more sinister path. Torture Hurin's children and make him watch, helpless.

Also, remember the children of Feanor - they had a sworn oath to fight against Morgoth because of their father and, mostly, followed it to the best of their ability. When someone takes and tortures your family, it must be hard not to harbour ill will towards that person. So, while Morgoth held Hurin, there was always the risk that Turin might raise armies to fight and thwart him, all in the attempt to free his father.
It is, perhaps, a testament to the weakening of Morgoth's power that Turin is, in many ways, successful in his attempts to thwart him, despite the curse. He kills Glaurung, after all, though with perilous consequences - and he does raise a number of armies against Morgoth.

So, yes, Morgoth is a bit of a sick fellow. Torturing Hurin by cursing his family. All in the hopes of getting a bit of information.

[Urwen]

It's obvious where my loyalties lie... Even my username is also name of child of Hurin.

Long live Urwen and her glorious brother and sister! Especially sister.

Nienor.

Turin might have been slightly insane, and deserved to die at one point. But Nienor wasn't. Why did she have to die as well?

Morgoth,

For me and my two siblings, You must stop this madness.

Remember, I'm watching You from Void. I will hold You blameless if You stop this madness. Even though Your plague cost me my life.

Urwen (Lalaith)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

An interesting theory! So this Morgoth was spiteful, wasteful and wicked, you say?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Turin might have been slightly insane, and deserved to die at one point. But Nienor wasn't. Why did she have to die as well?

Did he? Weren't all his unfortunes just because of the curse Morgoth made? Wasn't that the whole point; that everything he tried (but turning to Morgoth) were doomed to fail? Wasn't that the tragic of it all, that he should not bend but fight even if it went from bad to worse? And Nienor, sure, was a victim of the same curse. Neither had a fault of their own, but the curse hanging on them.

And those curses spanning over several generations are a frequent motive in many myths (including the Bible).

Oedipus didn't want to do bad but s**t happened. That's what tragedy is about?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

An interesting theory! So this Morgoth was spiteful, wasteful and wicked, you say?

What an outrageous suggestion! Next thing happening will be someone saying he was evil!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What an outrageous suggestion! Next thing happening will be someone saying he was evil!

We probably shouldn't be daring as that, now sure we shouldn't? It's soo bad to judge people that easily. Surely there is an explanation, like his experiences as a youth (you know like banning from his family and friends and so on)?

[Urwen]

And that would be me. As they always say, you hate one who killed off your namesake.

Well, I hate the one who killed my namesake (and her family)

Namesakes are important, you know. They tell who you truly like.

Namesakes are your very essence. And as for my essence... Lalaith is mine.

And as a vivid fan of my namesake, her family is also important for me.

With Grief and Laugher, new day shall come.
Turin is not needed for our perfection to shine out,
alive, good and bright.

For Hin Hurin we are, and we know no fear.

We'll chase Morgoth till the Sun is in the rear





How do you like my poem? Told from POV of Urwen and Nienor

[Galadriel55]

I love all 3 Hini Hurin. And Hurin, and Morwen. Even though I'm neither's namesake. I still love them, and I love COH.
I think Morgoth was very clever when he cursed Hurin's kin. *You have to admit that, even though he's evil and hated by most characters*. Instead of torturing the faily to death with physical means, he causes them inner misery and grief. Also, instead of simply destroying all the strength that they posess, he uses it to help his own means. Or at least he meant to. Didn't really work out fully, but still worked. Remember how Morgoth was afraid that his curse will loose it's power, because Turin was so powerful? But no, all that good power was turned into something evil without Turin realizing what's aboard....

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Or at least he meant to. Didn't really work out fully, but still worked. (

When you think of Morgoth, think of one motivated and filled more and more by simple hate. Hate, especially, of anything and anyone that he cannot control and rule. That hate, while it hurt many others (including the family of Hurin) also had terrible impact on Morgoth himself. As he spent himself in hate, he lost the ability to alter his form (like the other Valar), became bound more and more to his own subterranean throne (until captured and bound by the host of the West - and expelled from the world), and raised up his own eventual destruction.

Tolkien wrote an interesting prophecy (of Mandos) dealing with the end of the world in which he notes that, in the final battle on the plains of Valinor, Turin will come from the Halls of Mandos and deal to Morgoth his final death and destruction.

That last is especially interesting since Turin is an Atani (man) and so it is significant that he is able to remain in the Halls of Mandos and refuse to leave the world - not just for a short time like Beren, but for the whole remaining history of Arda!! I've always felt that his determination and unwavering resolve to so remain were products of his treatment at the hands of Morgoth. Where his father eventually despaired of life and departed, Turin became so fixed in his determination to BE the "Master of Doom" that he was unwilling to depart. In the end, he became Illuvatar's tool in the final destruction of Morgoth.

[Galadriel55]

And there's no one more fit that Turin to carry out the prophecy! I think that out of all the thousands of Elves, Men, and Dwarves whose lives Morgoth ruined, Turin's was by far the worst and most bitter (Unless it be Hurin, but as Puddleglum rightly said, Hurin did not want to stay any longer in the world). Turin wanted to strike the final blow to get revenge on Morgoth. He was trying to do that all his life, but because of the curse all his efforts somehow turned on himself. Imagine it like this: Morgoth punches Turin; Turin wants to punch him back, but ends up punching himself. When he realises that he hit his own face, he punches again, and again hurts himself... This way Morgoth can leave the family to their own devices, and they'll be destroyed by, basically, themselves.
To answer Urwen's question as to why Morgoth "cursed them to death", it's probably because he was enraged about Hurin's mockery. He didn't kill him, didn't make him work, but made him suffer inside. Does he really care about 3 innocent individuals? He's MORGOTH, he doesn't give a hoot in hell about one little family. He destroyed thousands of families, but Hurin's got special treatment, since Hurin opposed Morgoth more than the others. And he didn't curse them to DEATH - that would be stupid of him. His curse caused their death, but it had better results when they were alive, preferably doing something big scale.

[Galin]

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned however.

The section concerning Turin returning at the end of days was re-characterized by JRRT as a mannish tradition (not a prophecy of Mandos)... although there is also the matter of Andreth's prophecy, which has Turin returning at the end of the Elder Days (not the Great End), with his seeming last act within the Circles of the World being the slaying of Ancalagon.

Neither idea was incorporated into the 1977 Silmarillion in any case, but see the end of the 1977 Silmarillion for what is says regarding Mandos and healing (taken from the unedited Valaquenta if memory serves).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So, why? Why did Morgoth curse Hin Hurin, therefore losing one of his chances to learn information of Gondolin location?

I think it's quite the opposite. If Morgoth let them live happily, they'd probably succeed in avenging Hurin (which is not part of Morgoth's plan). If he killed them, Hurin would suffer less - what's the point of that? By cursing them, he (potentially) can get Gondolin's location out of Hurin - if he would ask for mercy for his family, or one of the family would give it away "accidentally" (like, for exaple, Turin gave his location away by fighting with Gurthang, so why not try and find Gondolin through him?). If Hurin actually told Morwen and his children where Gondolin is, Morgoth's plan would have succeeded (Morwen wanted to flee to Gondolin, or like I said above, an "accidental" revealing).

[Findegil]

And in the end the plan was much more succesful then Morgoth could have been expected when he devised it: Túrins actions let to the destruction of Nargothrond, Hurins embitterment against anyone let him give up his claim for Dor-Lómin, reveal the location of Gondolin as good as he did know, diminished the realm of Brethil and led indirectly to the destruction of Doriath and to a very long lasting enmity between Elves and Dwarves.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If Morgoth let them live happily, they'd probably succeed in avenging Hurin

Like the Fëanorians succeeded in avenging Finwë and retrieving the Silmaril?

Originally Posted by Findegil

And in the end the plan was much more succesful then Morgoth could have been expected when he devised it: Túrins actions let to the destruction of Nargothrond, Hurins embitterment against anyone let him give up his claim for Dor-Lómin, reveal the location of Gondolin as good as he did know, diminished the realm of Brethil and led indirectly to the destruction of Doriath and to a very long lasting enmity between Elves and Dwarves.

Yep. Placing that curse on Húrin's family may well have been the single most effective thing Morgoth did in all the War of the Jewels. Even if he probably couldn't have foreseen just how much havoc it would work, it still was a stroke of genius.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Like the Fëanorians succeeded in avenging Finwë and retrieving the Silmaril?

You absolutely had to...

But consider this: Morgoth was afraid that Turin would evade his curse, such was his power at the time. All of Turin's actions were reversed by the curse that was layed on him by the most powerful ainu - and he almost escaped it. What would happen if there was no curse???

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Like the Fëanorians succeeded in avenging Finwë and retrieving the Silmaril?

Well, they did manage to get 2. At least, for a short moment...

[Urwen]

What would happen if there was no curse???

Three happy, unpoluted lives with chance of continuing the line to this very day.

Really,is that too much to ask for? I still pray that one day, curse would be removed, and on that they, because curse is finished, Lalaith, Turin and Nienor would arise as skeletons and slowly gain meat till they become exactly as they once were. I repeat: is that too much to ask?

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Really,is that too much to ask for? I still pray that one day, curse would be removed, and on that they, because curse is finished, Lalaith, Turin and Nienor would arise as skeletons and slowly gain meat till they become exactly as they once were. I repeat: is that too much to ask?

While I doubt you meant it that way, the first thing that comes to mind by slowly gaining meat is zombish looking Lalaith, Turin, and Nienor halfway through their transformation to real humans again. In which case, yes it is far too much too ask. Far, far too much and I am now going to have nightmares of the reanimated corpse of Turin chasing me.

[Galadriel55]

Urwen, really, what do you expect? Morgoth is... Morgoth! He's not some Gandalf or Faramir or one of those noble characters who do not want to ruin lives, even the ones of foes. He's MORGOTH, and he will NOT leave in peace the family of one who had angered him. Just because he's Morgoth.

And personally, I don't want the curse to be removed until Morgoth finally dies in Dagor Dagorath - it makes the story so much more... beautiful. Now please don't fly off the handle with me for saying that!

PS: when I said "what would happen if there was no curse", I meant what would happen to Morgoth. He wouldn't like the consequences!

[Urwen]

You...you actually like MORGOTH more than TURIN, NIENOR and LALAITH?

What kind of evil fan are you?

And personally, I don't want the curse to be removed until Morgoth finally dies in Dagor Dagorath - it makes the story so much more... beautiful.

Why? You want us dead for eternity. And don't forget, we will come back to life eventually. Turin will slay Morgoth and as his reward, we will return to life. Our parents would too and then we could go and be happy family we once were...

Also...

Morgoth: What for?

Urwen: I'll give you what for! You think you could go and slain my siblings and get away with it? Well, O mighty Vala, think again! *smothers Morgoth and turns* Oh, and that goes for you too. He might have slain my siblings, but YOU are responsible for my death. What should I do? I know, I'll leave you to them! *points to angry mob of Teleri elves in the distance, then climbs up onto the rock and watches as Teleri hack Maedhros to pieces*

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Urwen: I'll give you what for! You think you could go and slain my siblings and get away with it? Well, O mighty Vala, think again! *smothers Morgoth and turns* Oh, and that goes for you too. He might have slain my siblings, but YOU are responsible for my death. What should I do? I know, I'll leave you to them! *points to angry mob of Teleri elves in the distance, then climbs up onto the rock and watches as Teleri hack Maedhros to pieces*

But Urwen died of the Evil Breath plague that came from Angband. How in the world is that Maedhros's fault?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You...you actually like MORGOTH more than TURIN, NIENOR and LALAITH?

Did I ever say so?
I just said that the curse thingy was a smart move on his side (which does NOT mean that I'm his fan), but the curse ultimately lead him to his end.

Originally Posted by Urwen

What kind of evil fan are you?

I'm a very bad EVIL fan, because I'm a good GOOD one.
And when I say "beautiful", I don't mean "happy". But don't you think COH is beautiful the way it is? Would it be the powerful story that we know without the sorrow in it?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Why? You want us dead for eternity. And don't forget, we will come back to life eventually. Turin will slay Morgoth and as his reward, we will return to life. Our parents would too and then we could go and be happy family we once were...

I believe so too - Turin should "strike the final blow", and avenge for his family.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

But Urwen died of the Evil Breath plague that came from Angband. How in the world is that Maedhros's fault?

The plague came from Angband because Maedhros revealed his forces too early, when the "good guys" were still unprepared. But it's not Maedhros' fault - how would he know what the consequenses would be?! He didn't come all the way to Dor Lomin and chopped Lalaith's head off! More discussed here.

[Urwen]

You think so? Well, several big bosses warned him not to haste. They, in their wisdom, predicted her death, among other things. But he, hothead he was, refused to listen to wisdom. Thus, death of hers will haunt him along with other stains on his soul.

But if he had taken the time to prepare his attack better, she would have lived. And there would be one less stain on his soul.

He should have thought of possible consequences. Besides, had Lalaith lived, Turin wouldn't have married Nienor. Therefore, the incest is Maedhros' fault, not Lalaith's.

Also, I didn't mean just 'avenge them' for that's not enough for my soul seeking justice for those three. No, I meant 'bring them back to life'.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, I didn't mean just 'avenge them' for that's not enough for my soul seeking justice for those three. No, I meant 'bring them back to life'.

So you want to return humans from the dead to give these five people a chance to experience a happy life? I think it's quite possible, after the Dagor Dagorath. But not before. It just wouldn't work any other way. Don't ask me why, It just...is.

[Urwen]

That's what I meant. Plus, wouldn't it be nice. The family had five members THEN, the family would have five members NOW.

Don't discourage my dreams.

There's old saying: Pen is mightier than the sword.

Plus, since the original author is dead, the thorough description of Dagor Dagorath wouldn't come out.

That's the main reason I'm here-to dwindle out information on Chin Hurin after Dagor Dagorath. If all three come back to life, so would I, and therefore, my life as dead gost in here would end. When that happens, it's bye-bye, Barrow Downs forum.

[Galadriel55]

Well, we've come to some agreement at last!

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You think so? Well, several big bosses warned him not to haste. They, in their wisdom, predicted her death, among other things. But he, hothead he was, refused to listen to wisdom. Thus, death of hers will haunt him along with other stains on his soul.

But if he had taken the time to prepare his attack better, she would have lived. And there would be one less stain on his soul.

He should have thought of possible consequences. Besides, had Lalaith lived, Turin wouldn't have married Nienor. Therefore, the incest is Maedhros' fault, not Lalaith's.

You know I always forget that it was released because he attacked so soon.

So because Maedhros didn't know to the last little detail the consequences of attacking when he did, it's his fault to you. I think that expecting him to know something that not knowing the exact course the future takes just means that he's not Eru Besides I could just as easily argue that if Morgoth hadn't of killed Finwe and took the silmarils in the first place, Maedhros wouldn't have been in Middle-Earth in the first place and therefore it is still Morgoth's fault.

I don't think we will ever agree Urwen. I like Feanor, Maedhros, Maglor, and Celeborn the best. I could care less about Lalaith, Turin, or Nienor.

[Urwen]

Celeborn and Maglor are okay. But Feanor and Maedhros? That isn't okay.

For me, Chin Hurin share first place in my terms of liking, then comes Aredhel, then comes Finrod, and then come Luthien and Beren. Last comes Maeglin. That's that.

Sorry, but I can't like those who think of themselves above all others.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Last comes Maeglin. That's that.

I thought Morgoth was last?

[Urwen]

No way. Morgoth isn't even worthy to be in my liking list-not even in last place.

[Galadriel55]

Would he be the first one on your disliking list?

[Urwen]

Maybe....

...if there was no Feanor and Feanorians... *

*with exception of Maglor

Like said, six hotheads.. Just like their father...

I mean, really... Rashness runs in the blood...Just look at Curufin.

Or Celegorm.

I mean, he was quite good with cheating Luthien with his past lover.

Maeglin was born late in the first age, wasn't he? Aredhel probably got married to Eol just a few months earlier.

But hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin came to Middle-Earth EARLY in the first age. Celegorm is known to have devoted himself to hunting, and Aredhel is claimed to not love anyone. Coincidence? I think not.

There you have it. Celegorm claimed to love Luthien, but his only true love died when Eol cast his javelin...a cheat. No wonder Luthien didn't want him.

Oh, and this wasn't meant to offend Aredhel...just Celegorm.