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05-17-2005, 07:28 PM | #1 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Gandalf a "steward?"
While reading an excellent post on another forum it posed the question of whether Gandalf saying that he was also a "steward" is more symbolic/metaphorical or if we can see Gandalf as actually being a "steward."
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There can be two different meanings behind the word Steward. Denethor takes his "Stewardship" as he is the "Lord of Gondor," he is it's absolute ruler, and he throws this lackluster response at the end..."I remain in power! Ohhh...unless the king returns." Where another possible word for steward is "guardian." They look over, protect, land/property for it's master. I think we can all see that throughout the book Gandalf fulfills this stewardship role, he is the caretaker of Middle-earth. But is this supposed to be taken more symbolically? Or is Gandalf the actual steward of Middle-earth? The "steward" of Eru? "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." In that matter, could we also think that all the Istari were the "stewards of Middle-earth," just they strayed from their "stewardship" task?
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05-18-2005, 04:56 PM | #2 |
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Gandalf says "I am also a steward."
He does not say "I am the steward." Thus, the door is easily left open to there being several stewards of Middle-earth. Indeed, are not all the Valar and the Maiar "stewards" of Arda, awaiting the "Return of the King"? Cheers!
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05-18-2005, 05:20 PM | #3 | |
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Good question, Boro.
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05-18-2005, 07:30 PM | #4 |
Laconic Loreman
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Now that I think about it Nim, they were sort of the Stewards for the Valar. The Valar tried to intervene before, and it didn't seem to work out to well.
Also, it would sort of explain better why Gandalf was the only Istari to succeed in his task. Saruman is pretty self-explanatory. Alatar and Pallando, just not much is said on what they did over there in the east. Radagast was in a way a "steward" of the birds/nature, but as an istar, he was supposed to be a steward of all middle-earth, hence why he falls short. Good observation Formendacil, using "a" instead of "the."
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05-19-2005, 06:05 AM | #5 |
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As for the Blue Wizards, I'm not all that sure they "failed" totally.
Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere in "Letters" that they were sent as emessaries to the east (like missionaries), and that they may have had some positive effect in disuniting the eastern and southern peoples from uniting against the west? I'll have to reread letters, etc. Radagast is a generally curiously ineffective istari, for good or evil. But since even Saruman was given more then one chance to repent, it would seem possible that the other three wizards were welcomed back to Valinor.- especially given the extremely difficult working conditions of the Blue Wizards.
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05-19-2005, 01:43 PM | #6 | |
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Tolkien himself wasn't sure of the effect of the Blue Wizards in the east, I seem to remember that he said (in Letters) that he saw them as being the founders of secret societies and religions. Who can say if they failed, perhaps this was their purpose.
The question of 'stewardship' is interesting, when Gandalf says: Quote:
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05-23-2005, 08:22 AM | #7 |
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Gandalf is the/a steward of Middle-Earth while valar aren't there (on a way), as Denethor is the steward of Gondor while the king is away. Gandalf's job is just different. He doesn't actually rule ME. So when talking about Gandalf 'steward' means 'envoy' or 'messenger'.
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05-23-2005, 04:00 PM | #8 |
Laconic Loreman
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I think a bigger question is, is Gandalf in a way an "authority" when it comes to being the steward of Middle-earth? What I mean is does he hold some sort of authoratative power, where some other people of power (Theoden, Aragorn, Denethor) have to listen to him?
I can't recall anytime when Gandalf made someone listen to him, but he's very good at getting people to do what he wants. But, is this more of the fact that people are smart enough to listen to his advice?
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05-23-2005, 06:36 PM | #9 |
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Maybe the fact that Gandalf doesn't force anyone to listen to what he says is part of the difference between the good and evil forces in Middle Earth. The only characters I've noticed actively forcing another to do something have been on the Morgoth/Sauron side. Something along the lines of you can't be forced to do the right thing. Or also, that you can't remain in the role of good if you try to force your will on to others, even if it's "for their own good" or done in a subtle way - shades of Saurman and a lust for power?
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05-24-2005, 10:22 AM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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rolf,,,,gandolf likes stew !!!
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07-12-2005, 05:48 AM | #11 | |
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The WK could not have killed Gandalf, only a being of similar or greater stature, such as a Balrog, or Sauron, could have done so. Gandalf might have been anxious to face the WK, but that was probably because the WK was more than a match for anybody else in Gondor, and could sway the outcome of the fate of ME during the siege of Gondor, unless Gandalf confronted him, and also of the folly of Denethor. Gonder was vulnerable even with the aid of Rohan. |
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07-12-2005, 05:51 AM | #12 |
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PJ obviously did not think this would work well in the film, leaving people new to the LOTR confused.
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05-10-2006, 08:28 AM | #13 |
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There's no need to take the phrase literally. Gandalf was simply implying that he is also responsible for others the same as Denethor is.
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05-10-2006, 02:09 PM | #14 | |
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Right. Gandalf is certainly one of the highest stewards, but it is a role that he thought all should take on. He says this when speaking to the Lords of the West in XI. Chapter 9, 'The Last Debate':
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05-11-2006, 03:42 AM | #15 |
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That's not what he is saying, Legolas. As you can see in the quote you used, once again inaccuately, Gandalf is calling on the Lords assembled to make decisions as usual despite the challenges they were facing.
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05-11-2006, 06:47 AM | #16 |
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Denethor sees a steward as someone who rules in the place of another, in his case, in place of an absent King. Gandalf reminds him that the proper role of a steward is to serve, not to rule.
Like Gandalf, I am a Steward. Like Gandalf, I was chosen by others on behalf of a super-natural agency to fullfil certain functions. My tasks are to care and to serve. I have responsibilities but no power or authority over others. Denethor is reminded of this idea of Stewardship. Gandalf, while recognising his great responsibility for Gondor, tries to tell him that he need not take the woes of all the world on his own shoulders and that if he will be a serving steward as well as a Rulling Steward, then other stewards, all those who serve and care for Middle Earth, can help him to carry the load. In his pride, Denethor will not serve, only rule. He takes the whole load on himself and it's weight crushes him. . |
05-11-2006, 07:53 AM | #17 |
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Hear, hear! Well said!
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05-11-2006, 09:44 AM | #18 | |
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"once again inaccurately" - what does that mean?
It is accurate. Try reading it again. Quote:
steward - one who manages another's property, finances, or other affairs
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05-11-2006, 02:07 PM | #19 |
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'Steward' in this context seems equivalent to 'Thain' in the Shire: 'They chose from their own chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the king that was gone.' (LotR Prologue).
The section in italics makes it clear that the Thain was to all intents & purposes in the position of the King, with all his power & authority. The Steward is in the same position in Gondor - unless the King returns. Denethor, therefore is not simply a 'servant' - he is 'King'. As is the Thain in the Shire. Gandalf is 'Steward' in that he is the representative of the Valar (possibly of Eru, rather, as even though it was the Valar who sent him to Middle-earth, it seems from his words to Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas that he had strayed beyond thought & time - ie beyond/outside Arda itself - that it was He who sent him back). It seems what Gandalf is saying is that while Denethor may be Steward/representative of the political & temporal ruler of M-e, he, Gandalf, is Steward/representative of the Divine ruler of all things. Its the old division of Church & State thing. |
05-11-2006, 02:42 PM | #20 | |||
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Quote:
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As far as I can see they just used different semantics to express the same general point (a good one at that). Quote:
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05-11-2006, 04:36 PM | #21 |
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Legolas brings up a good point and it goes to the very beginning of this thread. The two different definitions of the word "Stewards."
Denethor's "Steward" is to rule and run the Kingdom as davem points out. Which was the job of the Stewards until a King should return. Hence the title "ruling Steward." Where Gandalf's "steward," is to act more as an emissary of the Vala and Eru, and to be a caretaker. Also, I would like to point out Formendacil's point when Gandalf says: "For I am a steward." The keyword being "a," Gandalf is not the only "steward" there are others. And as Legolas shows Gandalf wants others to act as "stewards." It comes down to the difference between the two definitions. Tolkien was a linguist, as he purposefully left one capitilized and the other not to emphasize the difference between "Steward" and "steward."
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05-12-2006, 03:12 AM | #22 |
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"Steward" in Denethor's case is capitalised because it's a title, not a common noun.
One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established. Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor, and that that care should mean swallowing his pride and accepting Gandalf's help and advice. * * * * * * * * * * * Some posters have suggested that one of Gandalf's roles as a steward is that of Envoy or messenger of The Valar. I don't see it. If he were a messenger, he would be proclaiming the message he had been given by his masters. He doesn't do that. He never speaks of The Valar or his own origins. Only Cirdan and a few others know that he has come from The West and no-one, except perhaps Galadrial, realises that he is Maiar. . |
05-12-2006, 05:29 AM | #23 | |
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Interesting that Tolkien, in one of his Letters I think, describes Denethor as a politician, as there is a message there for today's politicians ...
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05-12-2006, 05:58 AM | #24 | |
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Hence Denethor is king in all but name & has not only the power, but more importantly the responsibility of the king. Of course he has come to identify himself with the realm & has a pretty inflated ego by the end, but based on what he knows of them the House of Arnor are a disaster waiting to happen. We know Aragorn, he does not. There's a war on, & disaster is just around the corner. Then some wizard pops up & intends to put the last loser of a line of losers on the throne. What is any war leader going to do in that situation. And Gandalf doesn't help Denethor in the slightest way to understand the situation. Denethor has isolated himself & come to believe that the safety of the Realm depends on his rule. Put yourself in his position – would you just hand over the rule of the city & realm to a total stranger with no rightful claim just because some wizard pops up & tells you to? His own line has failed – Faramir has just handed the Ring over to Sauron by letting Frodo go. I think there is a misunderstanding of the role of 'Steward' in this context. We're not talking of the political equivalent of wine stewardhere, but of someone who stands in for the King. In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway. |
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05-13-2006, 03:45 AM | #25 |
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"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?
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05-13-2006, 04:28 AM | #26 | |
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05-13-2006, 09:11 AM | #27 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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davem, I agree to an extent. According to the rules set down by Pelendur and the Council, Arvedui's claim was illegitimate (which the law itself they made is what was illegitimate. They found a loophole and they took advantage of it. Politics and power will do that. )
The loophole in Arvedui's claim is he claimed to be Isildur's heir, and was restoring the High Kingship. Where the Council found the loophole that Isildur forsook his Kingdom: Quote:
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Arvedui claimed to be Isildur's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. The Council said, na can't do that because Isildur gave up his rule here (even though if we are told he didn't), but still that's what the Council had made law. Aragorn claimed to be Elendil's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. Aragorn was probably aware of Arvedui's claim being rejected, so all the more important to claim to be Elendil's heir, who indeed was the High King, and restore that Kingship. Where Isildur (again according to the Council) had relinquished his rule in Gondor and was not the High King, he gave up his rule in Gondor and went to rule Arnor. Aragorn most likely knew about Gondor's ruling in Arvedui's claim, hence the importance of claiming to be Elendil's heir and not Isildur's. Which I think makes it look as if Aragorn's claim was in accordance to Gondor's law.
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05-13-2006, 09:57 AM | #28 |
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Dieu et mon Droit
There are greater things here than the petty squabbles of politics and claims. Aragorns ancestry cannot and will not be denied, only through him will there be reunification, only through him will there be the saving of the last remnents of the Dunedain, and that includes Gondor. It is not in a name, nor the imaginary lines drawn on the soil of Middle-earth that he claims leadership over the world of men, it is in his blood that he is the greatest man alive during the closing years of The Third Age, for who else of The Atani is descended from Beren and Luthien, who else can weild Anduril, who else can wear The Elessar and The Ring of Barahir, these tokens are ancient and their history predate Gondor and Arnor, they are given to the rightful heir of Beren, Earendil and Elendil, who of the race of man can claim these to his own, not for nothing is Aragorn named Estel, remember the very existance of the Free West was at stake here. Is Gandalf the Steward of Eru, when he crowns Aragorn is he handing over the stewardship of Middle-Earth to the Dominion of Men, have Men been given lordship over the world that is, only for it to come to this?............................................. ........
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05-13-2006, 10:17 AM | #29 |
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I take your point. Its arguable though that if Aragorn had just walked in & claimed the High Kingship while Denethor was alive he would have split the realm & we'd have seen a repetition of the Kin-strife. Denethor could certainly have claimed that Elendil had bequeathed the realms to his sons & therefore only the Heirs of Anarion had the rightful claim to rule Gondor. This was clearly Aragorn's fear even after Denethor's death - otherwise why not proclaim himself after the battle of Pelennor Fields? I note that Faramir asked the people at the coronation if they would have Aragorn as their King. Isildur did not so much 'relinquish' rule of Gondor as acknowledge that his nephew was next in succession after Anarion.
In other words both sides had valid points to make. Denethor ruled as Steward of the decendants of Anarion, not of Elendil. For all Aragorn could claim the High Kingship he could have just been laughed out of court. The argument would have been on technicalities as far as I can see & in the world of realpolitik such technicalities are just words. Aragorn was not a direct heir & did not have a claim to the Kingship of Gondor & Denethor knew that. Aragorn was playing politics as much as Denethor. His real claim was based on his success in the war against Sauron. He was the closest thing to an 'Heir to the throne', but he wasn't actually one in a real sense. I suspect Pelendur & the Council would have rejected Arvedui's claim if he had invoked his descent from Elendil in the way they rejected his descent from Isildur. Note, my point was based on 'legality', not moral or ethical 'right'. Legally, Aragorn's claim to the rule of Gondor is desputable, while Denethor's & his heirs is not. Hence Denethor's right to rule by inheritance ('heredity') is greater than Aragorn's. |
05-13-2006, 10:33 AM | #30 |
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I agree in principal with most of what you say Davem , however if Aragorn had declared himself to the people of Minas Tirith I doubt they would have rejected the Weilder of The Sword that was Broken, The Dead men of Dunharrow had no doubts, even Eomer can see the advantage of Anduril fighting alongside The Sons of Eorl. The people of Gondor were on their last legs, I think they needed HOPE.
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05-13-2006, 10:45 AM | #31 | |
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Denethor or his heirs (I include Imrahil as well) had to either be out of the picture or to accept Aragorn's claim as well as Aragorn achieving victory in the spectacular way he did in order for him to attain the throne without splitting the realm & bringing more bloodshed. |
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05-13-2006, 11:07 AM | #32 |
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Death, Death and a bit of Dying for nothing
You are probably right in saying that Denethor would have caused some problems had he lived, however if Boromir had lived and remained true, he would surely have seen Aragorn in a more positive manner, I even believe he would have bent his knee before the whole world and accepted Aragorn as his King. Denethors madness would have been his downfall, in the same way Hitler imploded. Mad men cannot think, their followers soon come to hate them, ruin and destruction are the battle honours of deranged leaders. In saying all this, I believe what you say to be true, for Politicians, Leaders and Councils of Leaders are corrupted by power and have only one true agenda, that is to hold on, clinging as hard as they can to power, at all costs, spending the lives of their followers until utter ruin.
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05-13-2006, 11:26 AM | #33 | ||
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05-13-2006, 12:17 PM | #34 |
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Boromir had not really seen the greatness of the warrior/leadership of Aragorn, how would he have reacted to the scene at The Stone of Erech for instance, surely he would have seen the power of The Heritage of The Heir of Elendils son Isildur, the rights of The House of Hurin would pale into insignificent beside The man within whose veins flowed the blood of Melian and Luthien.
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05-13-2006, 12:20 PM | #35 | |||
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davem, oh I agree, if Aragorn had really just pulled an Arvedui and claimed Kingship, he may very well have been laughed out of the Court. He had to prove himself first and after Pelennor and the Black Gates, I think he gets the support he needs. Even after this, I think Aragorn understood how to play politics:
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Boromir's situation of accepting Aragorn is a toss-up I think. Early in his writings, Tolkien plays with an idea of Aragorn and Boromir reaching Minas Tirith, and Boromir trying to kick Aragorn out of power: Quote:
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05-13-2006, 12:21 PM | #36 | |
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05-13-2006, 12:27 PM | #37 |
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We can also assume that Denethor would have caused trouble had he not been roasted......
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05-13-2006, 01:23 PM | #38 | |
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Boromir has inherited his father's obsessive love of Gondor & I think that explains a lot about him & the choices he made, & would have made. |
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05-14-2006, 04:43 AM | #39 | |
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05-14-2006, 07:43 AM | #40 |
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We won't ever know. I don't see Boromir as being all that 'nice' - certainly the movie rewrote him as a flawed hero, as opposed to the proud, but often thuggish, warrior of the book. Which is not to say he didn't have some good in him. His final act was selfless & worthy of the respect Aragorn & the others show him (respect for his prowess in battle, not for his social skills or pleasant company btw). But this is one moment. He died heroically, but his concern all along was with Gondor. His repentance came with the realisation that he was dying. If he had succeeded in avoiding death I don't see any reason that he would have changed essentially. He wouldn't have turned into a Faramir.
The idea that he would have 'betrayed' his city, his people & most importantly his father by going off on a wild goose chase after a couple of Hobbits is something that is not in character for him - much though we all might like the 'Happily ever after-ness' of it. Boromir was 'lucky' - he achieved a heroic death & had time to 'confess his sins'. As B88 has so cogently argued, though, things had not come to the 'pinch'. Boromir, I think, would have sided with his father. Denethor would have determined whether Boromir accepted or rejected Aragorn. He wouldn't have chosen Aragorn over his father, if push came to shove. |
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