Did Gandalf have a Plan "B"?

[Inziladun]

Throughout LOTR there is a common theme, at least to me, of people "accepting" the parts chosen for them in the great Play by an offstage Director whom they never see, yet know they still are bound to obey.

Gandalf is the main force in pointing characters to their assigned roles; somehow he has some foreknowledge of who should do what.

He it was who chose Bilbo Baggins to accompany the Dwarves to the Lonely Mountain. When he later learned that the ring found by Bilbo and brought back to the Shire was the One, he felt it to be in the right hands with Bilbo's heir, Frodo.

'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'

The Shadow of the Past

Having said that though, Gandalf also makes it clear that Frodo does have free will in the matter. He can refuse his part if he wishes.

'And now,' said the wizard, turning back to Frodo, 'the decision lies with you.'

If Frodo had denied responsibility for the Ring, or had feared further involvment with it too much to agree to bear it (both reasonable conclusions from an intellectual standpoint), what other options would Gandalf have had? He wouldn't have dared to take possession of it himself to take it somewhere else.

[Mithalwen]

Interesting... I don't know if events would have conspired to force his hand had he refused but he, like Bilbo seems tohave felt the force of destiny and is compelled by it. And he is not alone - Boromir starts his journey long before Frodo and about the same time Gollum escapes from Thranduil's guard and so is the catalyst for Legolas' journey. "Fate" is drawing the fellowship together. I don't think Frodo had much of a choice about leaving the Shire, perhaps more interesting is his choice to proceed from Rivendell. Maybe the Ring had already taken hold or perhaps, his near death had meant there was already no turning back. I remember speculating about that in the chapter by chapter discussion years ago - must look again.

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Frodo had denied responsibility for the Ring, or had feared further involvment with it too much to agree to bear it (both reasonable conclusions from an intellectual standpoint), what other options would Gandalf have had? He wouldn't have dared to take possession of it himself to take it somewhere else.

Had a situation arisen where the enemy would certainaly have taken the Ring had Gandalf not done something, I'm sure he would have taken it. What would have happened then and whether he would have been strong enough to resist it is another matter.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

If you think about it logically, Gandalf could have organised Frodo's departure from the Shire right after he discovered his ring was the One Ring. And he could have arranged for himself and a squad of Rangers, plus some of Gildor's people, to escort Frodo to Rivendell.

And in terms of logic, it was plain insanity for the Council of Elrond to hand responsibility for destroying the Ring to Frodo. Powerful people like Elrond, Erestor and Glorfindel are sitting there, and they say goodbye Frodo, lots of luck ? I don't think so.

[Rhod the Red]

Plan B would probably to give it to an Elf in Rivendell to either take it to the Sea and throw it in there or look for a scroll that tells of a way to destroy it somehow other than return it to Mount Doom. The former was discussed at the CoE, no Elves took it for fear of their lives and integrity.

Gandalf acted and thought in knowledge that he and the Free Peoples would have little ability to mould events; therefore he had the mood that they must simply do the best they can. But also mindful that events make history; people just ride them. In a manner of speaking. The Istari were prohibited from using magic in a massive scale, especially near in rivalry of Souron. Their role was to advise and lobby so that he'd be defeated.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Free will always seems to play a determinative role in
Middle-earth. An example is Boromir insisting on
taking on the role clearly intended for Faramir of journeying
to Imladris (with Faramir among the Fellowship the tale would
take an intriguingly different turn). As to Frodo declining the Ring, I don't think it
could have been born by a powerful elf, for reasons Gandalf,
Galadriel, etc. make clear. Probably Sam Gamgee would have
had to be the default option.

[deagol]

'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'

I think if we expand this to mean that "hobbits" were meant to have it we get a clearer picture of what is actually going on. I like the idea of a substitute hobbit. I'm not sure that would necessarily have been Sam, as his allegiance was clearly to Frodo, and he had promised Gandalf to protect Frodo -- not the Ring. But it's clear throughout the saga that hobbits -- Bilbo, Frodo, and even Sam for a bit -- have some peculiar resistance to the Ring's wiles that even elves -- and certainly not mortal men -- do not possess.

[Galadriel55]

I agree with deagol that Gandalf would have found another hobbit to do the job. He seems to be one of the few who don't underestimate this race, isn't he? I guess that he was counting on his persuasive skills, the seriousness of the matter, Frodo wanting to see Bilbo again, and Took descent, and didn't really worry about Frodo refusing to "do the job".

[narfforc]

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

Which means, Sauron wins control over Middle-earth and eliminates, seduces or captures all other majar around. If he was happy with ruling only that continent, they probably could send another mission just to keep him busy with home affairs. But if he is able to consolidate all resources and attack the West once again, an atomic bomb will be the final solution as it happened to Numenor once upon a time

[Mumriken]

Oh yeah if Sauron did manage to conquer middle earth we would loose the last noble men and our dwarves/hobbits. I'm sure the valas would intervene before that happened though. If the istari completely failed they would send over some vala to take down Sauron alone. Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. They could have sent orome into mordor and forced Sauron into submission. It's not like the battle would last for long, like 5 second and Sauron would be crying for daddy morgoth. xD

[blantyr]

In the early days of the First and Second Ages, when Tolkien wasn't so mature as a writer or as a person, the way to resolve things was with brute force. Even then the Valar were more reluctant than many a mythical pantheon to dirty their hands and settle issues themselves. Still, by the time Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings, the notion that good shall triumph over evil because the good guys are bigger, stronger, tougher and more numerous than the bad guys wasn't the theme he was after. Quite the opposite. While people like Aragorn and Gandalf were hardly 95 pound weaklings, the Enemy was generally perceived as being the mightier force.

At least until the Ents awakened and found they were strong, or until the horns of Rohan blew on the edges of Pelennor...

In every Lord of the Rings role playing game I've encountered there has been some form of 'fate' game mechanic. Generally, so many times a game session, the good guys blessed by the Valar are allowed, when the dice fall wrong, to pick the dice up and roll again.

This reflects a notion that the Valar are making it possible for things to turn out all right... assuming enough people make enough correct choices.

Which reflects an underlying theme of the books which gets ignored in the movies. In the books, even though the good guys distrust and hold themselves isolated from other good guys, when the time comes just about everyone makes the correct choices while remaining true to their nature. In the books, the Ents take their time and with all due consideration and thought decide to tear down Isengard. In the movies the hobbits goad them into getting hasty. In the books, Denathor sends the Red Arrow to Rohan calling for aid. In the movies, Gandalf and a hobbit light the beacons of Gondor using stealth, summoning Rohan through trickery.

That to me is a deep underlying theme of the work. If everyone recognizes their duty, the Valar will subtly guide a path to victory. Well, not all of it was subtle. Wind from the sea cleared the air before the Battle of Pelennor, and brought Aragorn and other reinforcements up the river. I don't see the Valar as being totally subtle and passive, as totally refusing to intervene.

Yet the themes of the book involve everyman and every god being willing to do their part.

Plan B? The Valar manifesting physically and thwapping everything in their path? OK. Sure. Maybe they talked about the possibility over supper in the land of the ever living. But would Tolkien ever write that book? Is that what he was saying with his creation?

No way.

[littlemanpoet]

I like Blantyr's points. But I want to add something.

What Tolkien presented was not plan A, nor B, nor C. It was more like Plan T.

Many, many people failed of their duty before only nine people - make that eight because Boromir failed for a short while that almost cost the West everything.

What really happened was that the West made it through, by the skin of their teeth, long after plan a had failed, long after B, C, D, and so forth had failed.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. They could have sent orome into mordor and forced Sauron into submission. It's not like the battle would last for long, like 5 second and Sauron would be crying for daddy morgoth. xD

I think there are two reasons why not. I think there is a strong implication throughout the books that if an individual of a similar status overthrew Sauron they would inevitably become a tyrant in his place no matter how benevolent the intentions they might start out with. Gandalf and Galadriel both say this when they have the opportunity of taking the ring and we have the evidence of Saruman's behaviour to see that their fears were not groundless.

There is also the sense that it is time for the younger children, Men (and by extension Hobbits as essential a sub-group) governed their own affairs and solve their own problems. It is the transition point effectively out of mythology into the modern world. The "supernatural" races are going away or diminishing, fading. Men albeit with an elvish strain are taking control. Though the king is restored he is devolving power for example to the hobbits (thought I always thought it a tad impractical if men really couldn't even pass through the Shire especially if they were opening uo Fornost Erain). Think of Gandalf telling the hobbits that sorting out the problems in the Shire was what they had been trained for.

[Puddleglum]

The concern about becoming another tyrant dealt with someone overthrowing Sauron "by use of the Ring". The Valar could have sailed in (as they did in the War of Wrath) and done the deed without that danger - hasd they chosen to.

Your second reason, Mithalwen, comes closer to explaining it, I think - but is still only a part of it. Christopher Tolkien comments in Unfinished Tales, in the essay on the Istari, (and, I believe more is in HoME) about the Valar rethinking their ancient decision to try and shield the Eldar by their main force and glory (through the invitation to Valinor, primarily) and their conclusion that such was, in the end, an error - not in accordance with the purpose of Eru and not for the ultimate best of the Eruhini (The Elves and Men).

We could speculate about why such might have been the case - that the Elves first and later men (as the "Dominion of Men" came and the Elves faded) should make their own ways in the world not under wings of the Valar who would smack down any threat or evil that might threaten the children.

But the essay makes it clear that this consideration was behind the prohibition against Gandalf and the others trying the master other peoples through raw displays of power and glory. So it seems pretty plain that the same prohibition would apply against Orome (or Tulkas or even Eonwe) sailing in at the head a vast army of Maia to rescue the Elves and Men from Sauron's shadow.

So, I would say your second reason is completely true - as far as it goes. Only, I think the truth includes what you said and goes a bit further.

[Lollipop010900]

When Gandalf asked Frodo to take the ring to Rivendell, i think he knew that Frodo would do as he was asked. He had studied hobbits for many years and knew that it would be against a hobbits nature, especially one which had grown up with Bilbo, not to accept fate. And anyway, what would you have done if a wizard who would be a VERY bad enemy, came up to you and told you that yyou could save the world if you did what you were told, would you say no? I think everyone in the Fellowship, with the exception of Aragorn, was scared of having Gandalf as an enemy and that is why they all listened to his advice.

[Rhod the Red]

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

At worst they could have applied the Numenor solution; destroy Middle-earth.

Obliviously that would have been regarded as the 'nuclear option' of a last resort.

I'm sure they were watching closely, noticing at least 2 Istari were still on duty(Gandalf & Radagast) doing their job.

[Puddleglum]

Tolkien, in a 1954 letter spoke about the Istari and about Gandalf's sacrifice on the bridge and his being sent back, enhanced. Tolkien said that they (incl Galdalf)

"had been sent by a mere prudent plan of the Valar; but the Authority {ie. Eru, the One} had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

That is an interesting comment in that it shows Tolkien considered that the Istari (as sent by the Valar) **DID** fail. Gandalf was the last remaining solid and energetic to the Valar's intents (Radagast having "become enamoured of the many beasts and birds in M.E.", Unfinished Tales) and he had just been killed.

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E." So, as He had (long before) taken up Aule's attempts to make peoples to enjoy Middle Earth, and given being to the Dwarves -- so he now took up the Valar's attempts to encourage and tutor the peoples of Middle Earth in their maturing and growth learned in the struggle against Sauron, and gave new power and profundity to the effort by sending Olorin back, enhanced, to "finish the task".

[Raynor]

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E."

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

Of course the Valar were capable of taking a more direct approach in dealing with Sauron. As Tolkien said in Letters #156 though, they wanted to avoid that.

Why [the Istari] should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.
The Valar judged that all they really needed was some guidance.

Also, as said in the essay The Istari in UT, the Valar wanted to avoid mistakes they had made in the past.

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed.

Victory over Morgoth had eventually been achieved, but at a high price, and the Valar did not want to go that route a second time.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? ... send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

I don't think the question is whether they could have, on their own, removed Sauron - rather the question is whether that would have been the best thing for Men (and others of Eru's creation).

In the same 1954 letter, Tolkien was explicit in their intent.

"Why they {the Istari} should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world in this fable.
At this point in ... history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them."

In Unfinished Tales (essay on The Istari) Tolkien writes,

"And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed."

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

However, the Children were not simply "thrown in the deep end to sink or swim on their own".

The Istari essay notes that "Manwe, even after the Downfall of Numenor ... was still not a mere observer. It is clearly from Valinor that the emissaries came who were called the Istari." and "To the defeat of Morgoth (Manwe) sent his hearald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more so? Olorin was his name."

The Valar had a plan, a "mere prudent plan" (as Tolkien put it) to aid the Children, while still letting them learn to walk. Parents know how this is often a difficult balancing act in raising of kids - no less so here.

The plan, prudent as it was, failed with the sacrifice of Gandalf on the bridge. And at that point the Father (Illuvatar, after all, means "All Father") stepped in and amended the plan so that it would succeed. Sauron WAS overthrown, and (primarily) by the resistance of and efforts *OF* the Children.

Remember what Gandalf (Olorin) said to the Hobbits (RoTK, "Homeward Bound"

"You must settle its (your) affairs yourselves; this is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand?"

There is far more to life and history than simply getting to the end, or surviving. Growth & Wisdom - these come only with struggle. And they often come EVEN to those who lose their physical lives in the process. Sauron did great harm, but he was still (in the end) nothing more than a tool in Eru's hands in accomplishing Eru's purposes in Eru's creation. Just a tool - one who was simply "Used" (how galling it might be for the wilted spirit of Sauron, gnawing itself in the wastes, to realize, in all of its posturing, in spite of having "used" so many others, *IT* was the one being, simply, "used".)
----

[ed. Ummm, Simultaneous posting - gotta love it <g>]

[The Sixth Wizard]

I read an interesting essay recently which partly concerned Glorfindel and the trouble Tolkien had with reconciling that character in its Third Age and First Age iterations. Rather than rename the old character, he changed the rules of the game slightly by allowing him to return to Middle Earth. This reflects a trend by Tolkien of treating his own works, even its mistakes, as real "historical" facts as far as possible.

With that in mind, we have the dilemma in Tolkien's world arising. The world has a big bad enemy, but also much bigger good-guy gods who could roflstomp Sauron whenever they wanted to. I think Tolkien rationalised this problem by saying, generally, that power corrupts, and therefore a pre-emptive military strike (heh) would be detrimental to Middle Earth rather than helpful in the long run.

Observe what happens when the Valar overthrow Morgoth by force, and then give divine gifts to the Children of Iluvatar.

Initially (in the War of Wrath), the earth undergoes great and terrible upheavals. Beautiful things are marred and never remade. Many die and many choose to depart Middle Earth. Almost all of Beleriand is drowned. Really only the gravest of evils justify victory at such costs.

Later, when the Men of Numenor are given divine gifts of long life and technological superiority, they are slowly corrupted and fall from grace. This shows that top-down solutions will mar more than they aid the Eruhini. Even though Sauron was the one to finally take advantage of Numenor's power, it was already becoming militaristic, greedy and corrupt without his influence.

A final demonstration is the example of the Istari. Saruman and Gandalf choose different roles to play - Gandalf wanders and advises while Saruman studies the arts of the enemy and builds up power. Predictably, Saruman's more direct influence upon Middle Earth results in his corruption, and near disaster for Men.

The role of the Valar in an already fragile world is to empower, rather than save, Eru's children. Already mentioned is the wind which saves Minas Tirith, but what about those tiny moments of hope which Elbereth gives to Frodo? Or the inexplicable ease with which Sam lifts Frodo up the mountain? Tom Bombadil, the Eagles, or any other stroke of luck which happens to save the day? It's like running along behind your children when they start to ride a bike. If Eru's children feel like they can fight for good by themselves in Middle Earth, they are much more likely to do so.

[Raynor]

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

That is contradicted by the fact that the Valar did not let the Children do this on their own, they even sent some of their maiar, and even that failed. In fact, to help save the Children, Eru himself had to intervene and give a fallen hero new life and new power.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.

Different times though; there were more elves at the time, and those with the blood of Numenor were more numerous and stronger. These would be able to deal with a mythical being such as Sauron, and all his magic. Sauron in LotR times, even if weakened, is still a mythical being, employing magic and forces that surpass M-E's ability to deal with him. Were it not for the ring getting destroyed, M-E would have fallen to Sauron, one way or the other. This is what normally would have happened, no wise in his tower could have plotted any other course around this, no matter how much M-E would have mobilized.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Different times though; there were more elves at the time, and those with the blood of Numenor were more numerous and stronger. These would be able to deal with a mythical being such as Sauron, and all his magic. Sauron in LotR times, even if weakened, is still a mythical being, employing magic and forces that surpass M-E's ability to deal with him. Were it not for the ring getting destroyed, M-E would have fallen to Sauron, one way or the other. This is what normally would have happened, no wise in his tower could have plotted any other course around this, no matter how much M-E would have mobilized.

My point was that it had already been proven that Sauron could be defeated without the Valar galloping to Middle-earth's rescue. Actually, in the Third Age, it could still have been done with the use of the One. Good thing Gandalf was there to warn against that.

Speaking of the One, how would that have been dealt with? Would it have been a good idea to have given it an opportunity to influence the Valinorean forces? To have taken a germ of evil back with them? Even if the One had been destroyed, might not it have had time to work some evil? If you pull on one string in the history of the War of the Ring, you risk the whole garment becoming unraveled.

As an addendum. The Balrog in Moria was obviously too great for the Dwarves to overcome, but we don't see Aulë coming to their aid.

[Zigûr]

I always got the impression that the Valar never forsook their appointed role as helpers and counsellors to the Children of Ilúvatar but that by the Third Age they wanted to try a more subtle approach both to avoid the kind of disastrous consequences more direct intervention had seemed to cause and to ensure that Men came into their inheritance by their own doing as much as possible. In the end it was cooperation between the Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth and an emissary of the Valar which defeated Sauron rather than the Valar taking matters too greatly into their own hands. What's more, this situation came about through the designs of Ilúvatar weaving all these compontents together. The difference to me seems to be that in the Third Age the Valar rendered assistance while letting the mysterious designs of Ilúvatar unfold of their own accord rather than, as they had done up until the end of the First Age, trying to force the events of history to conform to what they perceived as being the right course. Perhaps the Valar needed to learn a certain faith, and that not all eventualities could be planned for and controlled.
One thing I have always found very interesting about the Valar is their capacity to occasionally make bad decisions, however well-intentioned, and the way that their great compassion occasionally overwhelmed their better judgement.

[Puddleglum]

Good post, Zigur.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

Originally Posted by Raynor

That is contradicted by the fact that the Valar did not let the Children do this on their own, they even sent some of their maiar, and even that failed. In fact, to help save the Children, Eru himself had to intervene and give a fallen hero new life and new power.

Parents are not limited, in helping their children grow, to only the two extremes of:

• Total hands off, let them sink or swim on their own. <and>
• Put them on your shoulders and carry them around.

The plan of the Valar *in this instance* (and incorporated in Eru's intervention by returning Gandalf) was in this middle area:

"They were primarily sent (to) train, advise, instruct, and arouse those threatened by Sauron; but not just to the job for them."

Gandalf took a few discrete active steps, like defending the company from the Balrog, or opposing the Witch King's entry into Minas Tirith (though only for a few minutes) - but he didn't defeat Sauron in direct confrontation - or even the Witch King, for that matter. In fact ...

"so powerful was the whole train of HUMAN RESISTANCE, that he himself had kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between him and the WK actually occurs: the battle {and the WK's defeat} passed to other MORTAL hands."

That is, Gandalf did his job so well that MORTAL hands were *ABLE* to defeat the Witch King.

Which, of course, exemplifies the desire of every parent raising a child. They want their child to grow to the point they *CAN* stand on their own two feet. But they also know that this requires a balance or mix of training, encouragement, *Some* help, but also *Some* allowing them to fall and fail. It's not a science and their is no valid "formula".

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One thing I have always found very interesting about the Valar is their capacity to occasionally make bad decisions, however well-intentioned, and the way that their great compassion occasionally overwhelmed their better judgement.

Which brings up an interesting thought: that Eru is dealing with the Valar in a similar way as the Valar are dealing with the Eruhini. He allowed them to enter Ea to prepare it for and guide the Eruhini. But he is also training THEM in the art of (if you will) "Parenting".

The Eruhini are Eru's children, and he does intervene on occasion. But he is also allowing the Valar to try and fall and get up and learn and try again in their task as teachers and guardians (or foster parents?) of the Children.

The same is true of the defeat of Sauron. Gandalf organized and kindled such a resistance (from Rohan, Gondor, Lorien, Rivendell, and others - most crucially, the Shire in the form of Frodo and friends) that Sauron was neutralized *primarily* through the actions and choices of Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Hobbits, etc. In short, by the actions of the non-divine beings of Middle Earth, rather than by the "the might and glory of the Valar (or Maiar) fully revealed"

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think that's quite right.

OTOH, I still like to think of the appearance of the Eagles at the Morannon as being Manwe's little signature in the corner of the painting...."You didn't REALLY think we weren't paying attention, Sauron?"

[Raynor]

Actually, in the Third Age, it could still have been done with the use of the One.

I am afraid I disagree that Sauron could actually be defeated using the One.

My point was that it had already been proven that Sauron could be defeated without the Valar galloping to Middle-earth's rescue.

And the conditions changed, and it was obvious that Sauron would win now through sheer army might. Is there anything in the books contradicted what I said, or do you want me to source this claim, that in pure army terms Sauron would win, pretty much no matter what?

That is, Gandalf did his job so well that MORTAL hands were *ABLE* to defeat the Witch King.
...
Sauron was neutralized *primarily* through the actions and choices of Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Hobbits, etc.

I disagree. While the Men may have defeated the Witch-King on their own, Sauron was defeated by divine grace in my opinion. Were it not for the hobbits to be guided all up until the last moment, and were it not for the fortuituous destruction of the ring, then the Men will have perished, and M-E would have fallen.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am afraid I disagree that Sauron could actually be defeated using the One.

Even though Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, and etc think he theoretically could be?

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree. While the Men may have defeated the Witch-King on their own, Sauron was defeated by divine grace in my opinion. Were it not for the hobbits to be guided all up until the last moment, and were it not for the fortuituous destruction of the ring, then the Men will have perished, and M-E would have fallen.

In LOTR, unlike The Sil, there is divine guidance everywhere. Was it not also divine guidance that Eowyn happened to be there at the right place in the right time to deal the death-blow to the WK? Is it not divine guidance that Merry was with her? He was with her because she, and none other, offered to take him with her. She didn't know he would save her life and the world.

The point is not that there was no guidance. The point is that the Ring was destroyed by the hands of mortals. Did the Valar or Eru take the Ring themselves and throw it Orodruin? No. They may have helped with a few "coincidences" here and there, but the work was done by others; in this instance - by Frodo, Sam, and Gollum in Sammath Naur, and by Aragorn and his army at the Morannon to distract Sauron's attention.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree. While the Men may have defeated the Witch-King on their own, Sauron was defeated by divine grace in my opinion. Were it not for the hobbits to be guided all up until the last moment, and were it not for the fortuituous destruction of the ring, then the Men will have perished, and M-E would have fallen.

My statement was that Sauron was defeated ****primarily***** through the ***actions and choices of*** etc

• Frodo exerted himself mightily and was successful in getting the One to the place where it "could" be destroyed.
• Frodo's mercy (and Bilbo's before him) made it possible for Gollum to be in place (and with the drive to) take the ring so it "could" be destroyed.
• Gandalf's & Aragorn's decision to make themselves bait succeeded in distracting Sauron so he would focus his efforts OUTSIDE his land, reducing the search for the Ring INSIDE - which gave Frodo & Sam the chance to sneak the rest of the way in.
• Faramir's decision to let Frodo go in spite of his Father's wishes, and even to give him extra food, enabled the quest to continue and succeed.
• Sam's steadfastness led to Frodo's rescue from Cirith Ungol, and to him not being caught by Gollum before they could get to the mountain, and to their escaping from the Orcs at the Isenmouth.

Intervention by the divine - the changing of the winds at Pellenor, Gandalf's **advising** the captains after that battle, etc - don't take away from or diminish that it was actions of Mortals that **PRIMARILY** (I never said "wholly") led to Sauron's fall.

Even (if you want to consider it so) the question of how Gollum happened to fall into the cracks is addressed by Tolkien in a Letter (don't have the number with me here). The essence is that FRODO expended himself to get the Ring to Mt Doom. That it was only *THEN* that divine providence stepped in and helped finish the task.

The point is that this is a far cry from saying that the Valar (or The One) just "did the job for" the Eruhini.

Rather - Men, Elves, and others had to exert THEMselves, use THEIR intelligence and determination, expend THEIR "blood, sweat and tears" - all without ANY assurance (or even suggestion) that the divine would bail them out if they faltered.

It was only AFTER all of that - and, indeed, only **BECAUSE** of all that, that a final grace was bestowed that, as it were, put them over the top.

[d4rk3lf]

I think Gandalf mentioned something like plan B to Denethor in Minas Tirith in the third book.
He said something like: "Even if I fail, and Gondor falls, I will not totally miss my mission. If anything goes through this darkness that can grow freely and have life in it, I will not completely fail my mission" .. something like that
It would be nice if someone can find this quote.

As I see it, that could be a plan B. Something that Gandalf does not reveal completely (as usually like he is not revealing his other plans).

I could be wrong, of course.

[Inziladun]

Welcome to the Downs, d4rk3lf.

This must be the quote you're referring to:

'But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.'

ROTK Minas Tirith

I see that as less of a plan on Gandalf's part, and more a profession of hope and faith that his work would not be in vain. I see a parallel with a similar thought from Sam, as he and Frodo approached Gorgoroth in the arid ugliness of Mordor:

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

ROTK The Land of Shadow

I think both Gandalf and Sam just realized that Sauron, even with a total victory over the West, would still never be able to control and destroy everything.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Welcome to the Downs, d4rk3lf.

Thanks Inziladun.
Glad to be here.

Yes, that's the exact quute I am referring too, thanks for that.
I agree with you, and I always looked at that part in similar way, however the part "I shall not wholly fail of my task" made me think he might have something in plan, maybe some small part of the middle earth (Rivendell, or maybe west sea-lands of Kirdan) to remain unconquered by Sauron. Some place that Gandalf is sure that evil of Sauron will not prevail. Or some trap. Who knows?

Anyway if Sauron wins, the Valars might attack him like they did Melkor in the past. I know their intention is not to be (personaly) included in the events of middle earth, but when it comes to the part where Sauron owns everything, who knows what they would do.