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Old 02-28-2019, 03:21 AM   #161
Huinesoron
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Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne View Post
I have no recolection of this at all, very disconcerting!

This puts my entire self-image as a Tolkien-nerd into question...
Now you're making me doubt myself...

... I'm not crazy! It's in Unfinished Tales.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel & Celeborn
In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond.
Which section, though it's just a couple of paragraphs, actually does give us a fair bit more detail about the War of the Elves and Sauron:

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Originally Posted by The previous paragraph
When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mķrdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mķrdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mķrdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dūm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.] Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.
It's interesting that Sauron guessed Galadriel had at least one of the Three waaaay back in 1700 S.A., but by the time the Fellowship hit Lorien five thousand years later, Galadriel could still say 'He suspects, but he does not know - not yet.' She did an amazing job of keeping that secret!

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Old 03-01-2019, 05:17 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Now you're making me doubt myself...

... I'm not crazy! It's in Unfinished Tales.
I know you are not. As soon as i read your post I checked if it was true.
The only proper conclusion is that I need to read Unfinished Tales again.
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:44 AM   #163
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"One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne. In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

(Explorable map)

There's a lot to speculate on with this update (which may or may not be the last update). Does the labelling of all three Mountains of Moria mean the Dwarven city will play a major role? How significant is the extention of the road through Mirkwood all the way to the Iron Hills? Why have they used Sindarin for both Dimrill Dale and Lake Evendim?

The crucial thing, though, is that the cities of Elendil's sons are named Minas Anor and Minas Ithil, placing this map firmly before the fall of the latter to the Nazgul. Of course, their very appearance means that the map must post-date the fall of Numenor, neatly ruling out the war with Eregion as a possibility.

More tentatively, the North Road runs to Fornost, with no roads leading to Annuminas; I suspect this means that we're looking at a time after the throne of Arthedain moved east. And... well... there's only really one story between the division of Arnor and the fall of Minas Ithil, so I'm reasonably confident that the map is pointing (for whatever reason) at the Fall of Arnor.

Which is something I've wanted for quite some time, but would also make a lot of sense to lead in to an Aragorn series. It establishes why he's not a king (Arvedui) and why he could become one (Earnur). It also sets up the Nazgul as a hereditary enemy, which - especially if the series heads into Rhun - means they can be used as local threats for Aragorn.

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Old 03-06-2019, 10:33 AM   #164
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Fanfic with a budget and a distributor is still fanfic.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:11 AM   #165
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Fanfic with a budget and a distributor is still fanfic.
Yes; an adaptation will always be an adaptation. And if you don't want to view an adaptation, then whatever Amazon comes out with probably won't be for you.

But I'm still excited. ^_^

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Old 03-06-2019, 11:30 AM   #166
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Yes; an adaptation will always be an adaptation. And if you don't want to view an adaptation, then whatever Amazon comes out with probably won't be for you.

But I'm still excited. ^_^
You and probably many others. Not I, though,

This is an old stance of mine, going all the way back to the PJ movie announcement. I think for me the sticking point is this: how dependent is my enjoyment of Tolkien's world on the manner in which he presents it? The answer, is highly.

The man was such a unique writer in his use of language, in his characterizations, and the overarching world view in the books that deeply resonates with me, that any other "take" on his work always falls short. Quite simply, I don't appreciate or need the efforts of adaptions.
Others disagree, obviously. To quote a movie from a book that I do enjoy:

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like".
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:32 AM   #167
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One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them, In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.



Welcome to the Second Age

Okay, now can I get excited? ^_^

The use of the 'star' map of Numenor confirms that Amazon have the rights to more than just the old LotR+Hobbit deal, because that map and description only appears in Unfinished Tales. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going full Fall of Numenor (or even, since Ost-in-Edhil appears on this version of the map, full Fall of Eregion), but it means they apparently can do some of that sort of thing.

So anyway: aaaaaaaaaaaa.

As Inziladun rightly says, whatever they come up with won't match up to Tolkien's own writings, and there's every chance they'll come up drastically short (though the fact that they correctly added the forests of Eriador to the Second Age map, and filled in the East Bight, says they're paying at least some attention), but still, "for those who like that sort of thing..."

aaaaaaaaaaa

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Old 03-07-2019, 10:07 AM   #168
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Odd that the Iron Hills aren't named on any of the maps despite the Dwarf-road being identified as ending at them. If they didn't have an Elvish name for it (not that I think "Khand" is an Elvish name, and we know that "Umbar" definitely isn't, coincidences aside) shouldn't Khazad-dūm be called Hadhodrond?

I notice Harad and Khand have each grown a couple of extra mountain ranges and rivers, presumably so Rhūn doesn't feel like the odd one out.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:23 AM   #169
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Odd that the Iron Hills aren't named on any of the maps despite the Dwarf-road being identified as ending at them.
Is there a Sindarin name for the Iron Hills? It'd be pretty easy to concoct one, but so far they've stuck to canon names, and all of them (I think) in Sindarin.

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I notice Harad and Khand have each grown a couple of extra mountain ranges and rivers, presumably so Rhūn doesn't feel like the odd one out.
[Snerk] At least they've faded the Harad ones out! I still think the Rhun mountains have some evidence behind them, though I'm positive the new ones don't.

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Old 03-07-2019, 12:31 PM   #170
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The only time-frame I can think of which would have Numenor AND Minas Anor + Ithil would be if they are doing the Fall of N - Exile -Last Alliance. Which wouldn't actually be a bad story to tell.

It seems to me that they have now released TWO maps: one representing the Second Age pre-Downfall, and the other the post-Downfall late SA, i.e. the Last Alliance period. So I'm thinking Ar-Pharazon to Isildur as the storyline.
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Old 03-07-2019, 06:53 PM   #171
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Aha! There are no fewer than FIVE maps! One of them is just geographic features with no names at all, and two (identical) just the names of the geographic features with no political nomenclature, but there are 2 more representing 2 different epochs:

Map 1 reflects the situation before the First War of the Rings: Ost-in-Edhil and Eregion are present, along with Khazad-dum. Numenor is there of course with its three principal cities, and a region in Harad (but not a city) is marked as Umbar

Map 2 however is either the earlier Third Age, or the very late Second after the Downfall: now we have all the key sites of the Kingdoms in Exile under their earlier names: Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, Orthanc, Fornost, Annuminas, Amon Sul. Umbar is now a city. Numenor of course is gone.
Interestingly, so also is "Khazad-Dum"- it's now "Moria," which can't work. Khazad-dum only fell to the Balrog and was abandoned to become "Moria" in TA 1981- but the last vestige of Arnor had been destroyed in 1974. Possibly the cartographer takes the position that Elves called the place Moria beginning with the destruction of Hollin.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:42 PM   #172
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I don't know if I want to see a Last Alliance story. That is actually an important piece in ME history character- and theme-wise, and I feel attached enough to it to be very sorry to see it done all wrong.

However, if they go all Game of Thrones on the Numenorian rulers, I could totally buy that. If there was ever a GOT in Tolkien, it's in Numenor. Also, I have very little knowledge and attachment to that era, so a lot of things would be forgiven on my part. I would give a Numenor series a go.
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Old 03-08-2019, 07:27 AM   #173
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Interestingly!, while it doesn't say anything about the show as a whole, it's pretty clear that they got a total geek to make the maps. I've noticed that the pre- and post-Downfall maps were not only both hand-drawn, but completely hand-drawn; check out the label for 'Nenuial' for proof that they redid all the labels. That's not the easiest approach to take, and says that somebody cared about these maps they were making.

The other proof that they cared is in all the details the added to the Second Age map, a map which Tolkien never drew. It's not only the forests - the whole coastline has changed. All along the coast of Lindon and what will one day be Gondor, the coast extends a little further out, and there are hills and forests that would be washed away in the Downfall.

They also filled in the East Bight in Mirkwood, of course - but look to the south of it. That's what we call the Brown Lands, but back in the Second Age it was the home of the Entwives. I'm not sure I agree with depicting it as a tree-filled valley, as they seem to have done - but the fact that they put it in says a fair bit. As does the de-deltification of Anduin and the expansion of Tolfalas.

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Possibly the cartographer takes the position that Elves called the place Moria beginning with the destruction of Hollin.
Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."

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Old 03-08-2019, 08:46 AM   #174
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Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."
An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mķrdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:52 AM   #175
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An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.
Or reproducing the Book of Mazarbul as tengwar and angerthas transliterations of English.

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I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mķrdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.
Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:58 AM   #176
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Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.
Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.
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Old 03-08-2019, 04:41 PM   #177
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Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

Well, in terms of place names all I can think of are two from the First Age (Nogrod and Bar-en-Nibin-noeg), with neither of which the Elves were on especially good terms. I reckon the folk of Hollin were more polite (ergo Hadhodrim)
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Old 03-09-2019, 12:26 PM   #178
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Returning to Balin's tomb: actually, it fails in a couple of respects (as T himself later acknowledged): first, the primary inscription, like the BoM, is in English, rendered in phonetic cirth (the Khuzdul is at the bottom). The second problem is that, while we know that the Dwarves don't use their secret Khuzdul names even on their tombs, Balin/Fundin aren't their actual "outer names," but translations of their Dalish names into Norse equivalents.

Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:43 AM   #179
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Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.
I assume you mean the idea that the various names + Rohirric were translated into Norse/Old English/rural English (for Hobbits)? I've never been sure when that notion first appeared - when are you dating it to?

The idea that the books were translated from old texts is a separate idea; I don't know how far that one goes, either, but Tolkien's 1937 Hobbit cover mentions it in the runic inscription ('... a years journey by Bilbo Baggins of Hobbiton compiled from his memoirs by J.R.R. Tolkien').

Or do you mean that the latter concept postdates the use of Norse names in the early Hobbit drafts by a decade? I haven't got a very concrete notion of the Hobbit writing timeline, so that could make sense.

(All complicated by the fact that The Hobbit was pretty clearly written as a derivative work feeding off the Silmarillion, and only adopted into its timeline when LotR was begun...)

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Old 03-10-2019, 10:57 AM   #180
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I assume you mean the idea that the various names + Rohirric were translated into Norse/Old English/rural English (for Hobbits)? I've never been sure when that notion first appeared - when are you dating it to?

The idea that the books were translated from old texts is a separate idea; I don't know how far that one goes, either, but Tolkien's 1937 Hobbit cover mentions it in the runic inscription ('... a years journey by Bilbo Baggins of Hobbiton compiled from his memoirs by J.R.R. Tolkien').

Or do you mean that the latter concept postdates the use of Norse names in the early Hobbit drafts by a decade? I haven't got a very concrete notion of the Hobbit writing timeline, so that could make sense.

(All complicated by the fact that The Hobbit was pretty clearly written as a derivative work feeding off the Silmarillion, and only adopted into its timeline when LotR was begun...)

hS
Tolkien had been 'borrowing' from real-world languages beginning with The Hobbit and its pilfering of Dwarf-names from Voluspa. But it wasn't until he wrote Appendix F (which actually began as part of the Prologue) much later, after the main LR narrative was completed, where he laid out the entire "fiction of translation" - Tolkien, in his guise of editor of the Red Book, not only translated Common Speech into English, but went farther and "translated" related tongues like Rohirric and Dalish into languages related to English. This was of course a ret-con.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:14 PM   #181
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If they want a GOT political intrigue story-at least partially, the downfall of Numenor would be one of the best periods and places to do it.

You could have conflict between the king's men and the faithful, and of course Sauron-who they could get some attractive really handsome actor to play. Because second age Sauron pre downfall is supposed to be "fair" in essence really good looking and visually appealing.

You could have plenty of CGI laden vistas with numenorian ships traveling the world,

It's got potential, I remain curious how successfully or not they will pull it off.

As for the maps-they added a lot of detail for Rhun but not Harad. Strange.
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