The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-09-2006, 07:15 PM   #1
Sardy
Wight
 
Sardy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 111
Sardy has just left Hobbiton.
Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

What do you feel the origin of Faramir's dream (which apparently Boromir's shared at least once) was? The dream in which they heard the omen,

Seek for the Sword that was broken;
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall councils be taken;
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand.


I am of the opinion that the dream-message was not sent by Eru or the Valar, but rather most likely by Gandalf or perhaps Elrond, as they both had vested interests in seeing Aragorn back on the throne...
__________________
www.scottchristiancarr.com
They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes.

Last edited by Sardy; 04-13-2006 at 09:32 AM.
Sardy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 02:32 PM   #2
Balin999
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
Posts: 521
Balin999 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Balin999
I dont think that it was Gandalf or Elrond, since they both were more or less surprised that all of those guys showed up at the council of Elrond, which wasn't actually planned.
I guess, it was just, well, let's call it fate.
__________________
...Nichts ist gelber als Gelb selber...

...The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, but conformity...

...Everything is possible, except to ski through a revolving door...
Balin999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 06:29 AM   #3
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,865
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I have always thought it interesting that the dream happened in time for Boromir to set off a long long time before Frodo did, and also the fact that "fate" celarly wanted Frodo and Faramir to meet and consequently was Boromir's insistence on going defying fate. It is a tricky question because Boromir's treachery and death was vital as things turned out for the success of the quest. Things surely would not have worked out so well if the events at Parth Galen had been different, and certainly if Frodo had met Boromir in the woods of Ithilien he would not have been allowed on his way.

I know I have posted about this in another thread but I have not the time now to search and link - but I will be interested to see what other comments this provokes.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 08:32 AM   #4
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
I've always viewed the sender of the dreams to be Eru.
By then it was pretty clear that the Valar plan of sending
the Istari was insufficient, and to some extent counterproductive,
and I believe (in Letters?) it's said that gandalf was sent
back enhanced because the original Vala plan hadn't worked.
Since Faramir got most of the dreams it seems he was meant to
go, and while Boromir would probably have not let frodo go on,
if Faramir had been in the Fellowship it's less likely he would have
been tempted, and might even have gone with frodo at leats through
Ithilien.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 09:36 AM   #5
Sardy
Wight
 
Sardy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 111
Sardy has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
I have always thought it interesting that the dream happened in time for Boromir to set off a long long time before Frodo did...
To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.

Balin999, I've just reread The Council of Elrond and don't see anything that overtly indicates that Gandalf (or Elrond) were surprised by the turnout. In fact, Gandalf specifically tells Frodo that he wasn't surprised by anything that happened, with the singular exception of Frodo (and Bilbo's) offer to take the Ring to Mt. Doom.
__________________
www.scottchristiancarr.com
They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes.
Sardy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 10:40 AM   #6
Balin999
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
Posts: 521
Balin999 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Balin999
Strange, somehow I remember Elrond saying that this council was not planned or at least that the people were not called together, but "by accident" came to Rivendell at the same time. At least Boromir and Gloin. But I may be wrong, of course.
And as for Eru being the "sender" of the dream, that would be worth a discussion, if entities like Eru do something like that. I don't think so, to be honest.
__________________
...Nichts ist gelber als Gelb selber...

...The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, but conformity...

...Everything is possible, except to ski through a revolving door...
Balin999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 10:58 AM   #7
Sardy
Wight
 
Sardy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 111
Sardy has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balin999
And as for Eru being the "sender" of the dream, that would be worth a discussion, if entities like Eru do something like that. I don't think so, to be honest.
The thing that makes me think that Eru (or the Valar) were not responsible for the dream is that they seems to be taking a definite "hands-off" approach to Middle-earth (at least in the Third Age), and short of sending the Istari, don't want to actively affect its outcome...
__________________
www.scottchristiancarr.com
They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes.
Sardy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 02:37 AM   #8
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,960
Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
The most curious thing in the dream in my opinion is that Faramir sees it many (damn my memory) times and Boromir just once. The fact has always intrigued me. Maybe Faramir was more sensitive to the message? And did that actually hint that he should have been the one to go to Rivendell?
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 02:36 PM   #9
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,865
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardy
To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.

Not quite certain but if you look at the timeline events are working themselves out. I am not sure how long a period the dreams occured. Gandalf reached Hobbiton on 12th April. Boromir set out on July 4. Does it have to be a specifice entity sending the dream - could it be some kind of collective unconscious/synchronicity at work? However the original name of Gandalf "Olorin" connects him with dreams and visons,
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 07:57 AM   #10
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,070
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
White Tree

I have to agree with Balin here and that it was Eru who sent these "dreams." And this is Tolkien playing with the idea of fate.

Quote:
To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.~Sardy
But the only problem with that is as stated Elrond and Gandalf didn't send out invitations to come see the new gift in Rivendell. Rivendell had been a place where all races and people came to seek council from the great Elrond, and this was no different. It was by chance that all these people came together at the same time to deliver their news and seek advice from Elrond.

Boromir had gone to Rivendell to get answers to the dream he and Faramir had. He couldn't understand it, and so he went to Elrond to ask what it meant. Then also to ask for council on the growing threat of Sauron and Gondor is getting beat back. So, it just doesn't seem likely to me that Elrond (or Gandalf) would send this dream. As they didn't do any sort of advertising for the Council of Elrond, all those who came showed up by chance to receive council.


Mithalwen raised an interesting question, on whether Faramir was the one "destined" to go, and Boromir's insistance screwed up fate. Rather interesting, never considered that before, but I still have to disagree with her.

I think it was destined for Frodo to meet Faramir AND Boromir. Because though they be brothers they are two totally different characters and personalities. If anything the Fellowship needed was strength. I mean they had an old man, a short dwarf, a singing elf, and 4 hobbits, the only one with a bit of muscle was Aragorn, without Boromir's added strength the Fellowship could not have made it through Caradhras, Moria, or Sarn Gebir. Could Faramir have provided this? I don't know, but the Fellowship needed strength to get them through the hardships, and Boromir provides that.

Also, what's important to consider is let's say Faramir and Boromir switch, they swap. Faramir goes to Rivendell and joins the Fellowship, Boromir stays back and defends his city. How grave would this be? Frodo running into Boromir alone in the woods as opposed to Faramir. Boromir capturing Frodo with no old man or wannabee king saying "tisk tisk Boromir, no no." How grave would that be? Na, I think that both brothers were meant to encounter the ring and Frodo, as they both have to face the test, one succeeds the other stumbles.

Not only that but I think Boromir was destined to meet Aragorn as well. I mean the Steward's son meeting the claimed to be King of his realm? Had Boromir stayed back he would have resisted Aragorn's claim to the throne and as we've seen before with Pelendur the Stewards had quite a bit of influence and power in deciding whethey they can relinquish their throne or not. But, in going to Rivendell, Boromir goes through many months with Aragorn, starts out a bit rocky, but in the end Boromir accepts Aragorn and bestows upon him to "Save his people."

Quote:
The most curious thing in the dream in my opinion is that Faramir sees it many (damn my memory) times and Boromir just once. The fact has always intrigued me. Maybe Faramir was more sensitive to the message? And did that actually hint that he should have been the one to go to Rivendell?
The only thing that I can think of is the fact that Faramir had a deeper love for lore than Boromir. Boromir's only care was of ancient battles and heroic feets, Faramir loved to study much more and was a better student ( ). This dream had really nothing to do with Boromir's interests. I mean it wasn't about war or heroes, he didn't care for this "lore business" and so he didn't have it as many times as Faramir who loved that kind of stuff. That's the only thing I can think of however, there may be, and probably is more to it.
__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2008, 03:12 PM   #11
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,865
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
HI-ing for and edit tomorrow - had a suden flash of insight
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2008, 05:12 PM   #12
Eönwë
Flame Imperishable
 
Eönwë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,889
Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Haha! I've figured it out. It's Ulmo who sent the dream.

My reason for saying this: Who did Ulmo give successful advice to? Tuor. Who were Tuor's descendants? The Numenoreans. Of who does it say "the blood of Numenor ran" truer? Faramir. But Boromir still had some Nmenorean blood, so he still got the dream.
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

Last edited by Eönwë; 05-13-2008 at 02:30 PM.
Eönwë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2008, 01:24 PM   #13
Ibrîniðilpathânezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrîniðilpathânezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 743
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Some years ago, on a different board, I recall a long and heated debate about this very subject in which someone very stridently insisted that the dream HAD to come from Ulmo, because only Ulmo still cared enough about ME to remain involved in its affairs. This argument was supported by the person's contention that all prophetic dreams during LotR supposedly took place near water, so naturally, Ulmo would be the person who sent them. Some people accepted this as proof, others didn't. I didn't. Not that I don't believe that Ulmo COULD have sent it, but because I don't believe the other Valar were as totally uninvolved with ME as it would appear on a casual glance. In his battle with Shelob, Sam calls the name of Elbereth, is suddenly moved to call out to her for help in a language he doesn't even know, and in response, the light of the Phial blazes "like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light," blinding Shelob so that recoils and finally retreats, giving Sam a last shot at her legs. And then there are the Eagles, which conveniently appear to show up when Gandalf, a servant of Manwe, needs them most. I suspect the Valar haven't totally withdrawn their interest, or their help; they only do so in moments of utmost need, and then as subtly as possible.

Personally, I have long thought that it's possible the dream came from Gandalf -- who was the Counsellor of Irmo, the Master of Dreams. He knew about the Sword That Was Broken, and where it dwelt, the fact that Elrond was a master of Lore, in whose house crucial matters were often taken in council (as with the White Council); he already knew about Isildur's Bane, as well as the importance of the Halfling; moreover, he had already performed the test on the Ring and told Frodo to head for Rivendell before Faramir and Boromir had the dream, which first came on the night before Sauron attacked Osgiliath on June 20th (according to Boromir's report to the Council). If Gandalf -- who, as the Maia Olorin, was responsible for giving helpful, if anonymous, visions to the Eldar of earlier ages -- was not the one who sent the dream, it might well have been Irmo, from whom he probably learned much about such matters. I certainly don't believe either of them were responsible for all such things in LotR (Frodo's dream of Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc certainly didn't come from him, nor, I think, from Irmo), but the dream sent to Faramir and Boromir was so specific in what it revealed and so direct in to whom it went, I believe it was intended to help prompt the Gondorians to stop looking at the welfare and defense of Gondor alone, and start realizing that there was still a larger world outside her borders, in which important things were happening and of which they should be a part. No man is an island, as the saying goes, and Gondor under Denethor's rule was coming perilously close to becoming one, consoled by the thought (which Denethor promulgated) that if Gondor fell, so would the rest of ME. The dream, if one wants to think of it in political terms, was rather anti-isolationist, and attempting to unify the free peoples in the fight against Sauron was larger mission of the Istari.

Oh, my, that was quite a ramble. Blame it on new meds that make me so sleepy....
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 07:22 PM   #14
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,173
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
who sent the message

I think that Galadriel sent the dream, because she can see the future, and she is able to talk through telepathy (talking with thoughts).
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 05:32 AM   #15
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,164
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
For me, it is completely out of question that it would be any of the "interested characters" sending the dream. By "interested characters", I mean basically anybody in Middle-Earth, and even less those who are part of the story, which effectively dismisses all Gandalfs or Galadriels...

Firstly, it would really make no sense that nobody ever mentions it. I mean, Gandalf or Galadriel would surely say, certainly at some point, "Yes, it was me who actually sent the dream", or it would be written in some of Tolkien's notes (I can imagine all these stories in UT with the behind-the-scenes stuff telling something about this). Gandalf himself was sitting at the Council when the question about the dream was brought forth. And (and that is the second point), wouldn't it be totally silly if Gandalf at that point had to say "um, yes, I actually know that dream, I have sent it myself?" Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor. Gandalf would be more logical, as Faramir was his friend, but again, why then did also Boromir get the dream once? Perhaps only if Gandalf once "called the wrong number". In any case, once again, there is no indication that Gandalf knew anything about the subject before Boromir brought it up.

I think it could not have been anybody in Middle-Earth, because first you need to have a person who knows a) Faramir, b) Boromir, c) Isildur's Bane, d) Halflings, e) Sword that was broken, f) where it is. There really are not too many people like this. And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).

No, in my opinion, it has to come from "outside the Middle-Earth": and at this point, it ceases to interest me, actually. "Something else at work" is always and has always been the best description for me. If somebody really pushed me, I would say either "the Valar" (as a whole), or "Eru" (which is sort of logical, but somehow I wonder if it is not unnecessarily high). The idea about Ulmo mentioned above is not relevant in my opinion, not anymore in Third Age; Ulmo was the last of the Valar to communicate with the exiles in First Age, but since then, many many things have changed and Valinor is outside the Circles of the World for good, and already by the end of FA Ulmo's power in the waters of Middle-Earth was waning. This was certainly a thing of importance, one of the few instances where there was "something else at work" in the fate of Middle-Earth, something from the outside, and in that case I believe it would have to be either just Eru himself or all of the Valar acting here together - just like with sending the Istari. So that is my opinion.
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 10:07 AM   #16
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).
Note that everyone in the story just seems to assume the dream has been sent by a higher power of some kind– i.e. not any of the actual characters. It's surely on that basis that Boromir undertakes his journey. So if it were in reality, say, Gandalf, he'd have been in effect impersonating a Vala/the Valar/Eru. Which I don't think was in his job description.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 10:56 AM   #17
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,143
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 11:39 AM   #18
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,164
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip spence View Post
So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?
But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Council of Elrond
Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave...
It seems obvious that the recurring dream of this nature, obviously prophetic, seemed to be really important to the descendants of Númenoreans still, and especially in this time of crisis. If it was only a matter of asking about some totally random and unimportant thing, they could have sent some random bunch of soldiers and messengers, and not one of the Steward's sons...
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 11:52 AM   #19
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,587
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip spence View Post
The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?
My money would be on Eru, as the ultimate "driver" of the story, and also, as others have said, the "fate" personified that brought the members of the Council of Elrond together at that particular moment in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skip spence View Post
What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?
From Boromir and Faramir's words, it looks to me as if Faramir was the one who wanted to go, and Boromir did it himself as a "big brother" gesture.

Boromir:
Quote:
Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.
The Council of Elrond

Faramir:
Quote:
Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.
The Window On the West

x/d with Legate
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 12:01 PM   #20
Bêthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bêthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,042
Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance
Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appendix A
Earnur was a man like his father in valour but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms.
In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bêthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 12:14 PM   #21
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,587
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry View Post
Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:
Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

Quote:
'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.'
Appendix A
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 01:53 PM   #22
Bêthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bêthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,042
Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry
Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:
Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:


Quote:
'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.'

Appendix A
True enough that's in the Appendix, where also is Tolkien's comparison of Boromir with Earnur, but I had restricted the context to The Council of Elrond, where there is the most extensive depiction of Boromir's character, in action as it were, in conversation with Elrond and Aragorn. His words don't inspire one with his love for his brother, but with his arrogant belief in his supremacy for the task. As you have quoted above (when I cross posted with you):

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoE
Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.
And Faramir's comment suggests a certain degree of willfulness:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WotW
Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.
And as the passage in Appendix A says, in continuation from what you quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appendix A
It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.
That last line is a powerful condemnation of the scorn and military prowess which determine Boromir's mindset. Had his love for his brother granted him more respect for Faramir's style and manner, perhaps he wouldn't have insisted so strongly that he alone was worthy of the task. But he was found wanting, as someone motivated greatly by love in LotR would, I think, not be.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

Last edited by Bêthberry; 10-18-2010 at 01:55 PM. Reason: trying to get the quote codes correct!
Bêthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 01:54 PM   #23
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,143
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 02:13 PM   #24
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,164
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry View Post
In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.
I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skip spence View Post
Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...
Well, see above. By the Númenoreans, it was still important to heed prophecies and such stuff, certainly for the educated people like Denethor. I don't think Boromir would be like "hey dad, what the heck is this stupid intellectual talk?" but he would be like "uh... I don't know anything about such stuff, but... perhaps it really is important if you say so. In such case, I suggest I go!"
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 02:20 PM   #25
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 2,911
Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
I'm with Legate and Nerwen here as for the matter of the sender of the dream being some "higher power" rather than, say, Gandalf or Galadriel, and I'm also not sure we need to bother Eru himself to explain it - the Valar, I think, weren't quite so detached from the War of the Ring as it probably seemed to those in Middle-earth, they merely acted with more discretion than in former ages, confining themselves to giving a 'minimally invasive' nudge in the right direction to things here and there (for another example see e.g. this thread).

Why Boromir and not Faramir? I suppose the final decision would have been Denethor's; and I think skip has a good point here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...
Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.
__________________
The 21st century is when everything changes, you've got to be ready.
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 04:05 PM   #26
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,070
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.
Well, Denethor, in truth was highly reluctant to let Boromir go, and only gave in when Boromir would not be "stayed."

Quote:
"Loth was my father to give me leave..."~The Council of Elrond
If you think about it, the eastern side of Osgiliath had just been taken by Sauron. Boromir was the "Captain-General" of Gondor, and with Sauron already making the first strike, I doubt Denethor would have been thrilled with the idea of sending the Commander of his army to seek answers to some trippy riddle. At least, at the time when he was approached by Boromir and Faramir, he doesn't appear to know anything about the riddle. (It took Faramir a while to figure out that Isildur's Bane wasn't referring to the orc-arrow that slew him). So, I've never had the same interpretation of the "scene" as Jackson did in the movies, where Denethor pulls Boro aside to make him as some kind of agent for Gondor. I think Boromir was just so annoying and wouldn't shut up, Denethor was more like...ARG ALRIGHT ALRIGHT GO! When Faramir doesn't bite his tongue and reminds Denethor it was he who gave Boromir leave:

Quote:
"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,"...~The Siege of Gondor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry View Post
In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.
I've been trying to unravel Boromir's complicated character ever since I read the story. Granted, it turns out to more a gushy man-crush for Sean Bean's performance, which I think in many ways "softens" the book Boromir. The movies concentrated on the best part of the character, the troubled and conflicted man who "fell," but in the end redeemed himself. In the forefront of the books, you see his arrogance and at times very childish, immature, behavior. Tolkien in one letter calls him the "bossy brother" of Faramir, and that could be a hangover from the earlier drafts where Boromir becomes Aragorn's rival in Minas Tirith.

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness:
Quote:
"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan
Quote:
...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whome Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor
Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy knumbskull.
__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 07:04 PM   #27
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,173
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
White Tree

Returning to the topic, though, who sent the dream and why Boro went instead of his brother.
When the dream was brought to the counsil of Gondor, Denethor agreed to send one of his sons - not servants - to find out what's going on. He didn't sneer at Faramir's elvishness, or whatever it's called, when Boro said that he dreamt it too. This shows that Denethor accepted the dream to be true. It is very hard to make Denethor head any advise but his own, so this ust be one of the rare cases when he listened to someone else.
Once Denny accepted the dream, Boro wanted to go himself, because for the reasons above he understood it to be a serious matter. It does seem more like Boro to remain and fight and send Faramir, but I think it was his pride and his mistakened judgement that Gondor is the best and he's the best in Gondor that pushed him to take the task that he didn't much care for.
Faramir usually gave in to Boro, and didn't try to compete against him. Even if he said soething against Boro's decision, it was in his nature to just accept Boro as the best.
The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself. Instead, she sort of intrigued Boro and Farry, so that one of them would carry out the fate...
Maybe fate chose Boro because he would need to go through the stage of a desparate desire for the Ring anyways, and it does less damage to the mission, to Gondor, and to many other people when Boro goes through it near Rauros. Imagie what would have happened if Farry went instead:
1) There would be 2 Aragorns in the Fellowship. Faramir is very much like Aragorn, except that he is more earthly; he's closer to regular people. The Fellowship is formed in such a way that no 2 members are too much alike, even Merry and Pippin. Farry would disbalnce the structure.
2)Faramir would probably help Frodo AT LEAST up to the Ithilien. That would prevent Frodo from meeting Gollum at the right time, and he's the one who actually destroys the Ring, even if accidentally. Moreover, this means that Frodo would have met Boromir near Henneth Annun, and his view of Frodo's story would be much different from Farry's. If Farry would have been with Frodo when they would've met Boro, it would turn out worse, because of their relationship. Farry would tell Boro way more than Frodo would, and he would follow Boro's instructions, like he normally does.



Wow! What a speech! I always had trouble with getting to the point quickly! Sorry everyone who had to read through this babbling.
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 07:39 PM   #28
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself.
Sorry, but this is just another way of saying, "Galadriel sent it". Which I think is most unlikely, for reasons already stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor.
And also, if the dream had been sent by one of the characters, I believe there'd be some hint of this somewhere, and there isn't.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

Last edited by Nerwen; 10-18-2010 at 10:40 PM. Reason: typo
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2010, 09:18 PM   #29
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
Sting

Quote:
Orogonally posted by Galadriel55
Maybe fate chose Boro because he would need to go through the stage of a desparate desire for the Ring anyways, and it does less damage to the mission, to Gondor, and to many other people when Boro goes through it near Rauros. Imagie what would have happened if Farry went instead:
...2)Faramir would probably help Frodo AT LEAST up to the Ithilien. That would prevent Frodo from meeting Gollum at the right time, and he's the one who actually destroys the Ring, even if accidentally. Moreover, this means that Frodo would have met Boromir near Henneth Annun, and his view of Frodo's story would be much different from Farry's. If Farry would have been with Frodo when they would've met Boro, it would turn out worse, because of their relationship. Farry would tell Boro way more than Frodo would, and he would follow Boro's instructions, like he normally does.
I see the situation differently here. I think "fate" (probably Eru, possibly through Manwe) preferred Faramir but sent the message to Boromir as a back up to commit Boromir to the future Fellowship if he insisted [allowing for free will to be effective] on being the one seeking Imladris---I think as much for vainglory as the reasons he gave the Council.

With Faramir in the Fellowship, and not unhappy to defer to Aragorn, he would have agreed (knowing the lay of the land best) to accompany Frodo and Sam all the way, or at least enough to get the hobbits past Boromir.

With a little rewriting Tollers could still have Pippin and Merry be captured and the Three Walkers pursue the orcs while Aragorn sntrusted aiding Frodo and Sam to Faramir.
This also sets up an interesting dynamic of Frodo-Sam-Faramir-Gollum in Mordor, including how Faramir might be tempted by prolonged exposure to the Ring.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 10-18-2010 at 09:22 PM.
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2010, 03:50 PM   #30
Bêthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bêthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,042
Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
1420!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
I've been trying to unravel Boromir's complicated character ever since I read the story. Granted, it turns out to more a gushy man-crush for Sean Bean's performance, which I think in many ways "softens" the book Boromir. The movies concentrated on the best part of the character, the troubled and conflicted man who "fell," but in the end redeemed himself. In the forefront of the books, you see his arrogance and at times very childish, immature, behavior. Tolkien in one letter calls him the "bossy brother" of Faramir, and that could be a hangover from the earlier drafts where Boromir becomes Aragorn's rival in Minas Tirith.

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness:

Quote:
"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan
Quote:
...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whome Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor
Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy knumbskull.
Both of these comments are in reply to my original comment,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bethberry
In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.
so I have some explaining to do. And I must beg your indulgence for a long reply that probably isn't long enough. But it’s great to see a thread in Books taking off the way this one did (even if I did have to shock a little to get it going).

I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir, CoE
The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!
Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.

Most of the good we hear of Boromir comes after his death, like the claims of Eomer and Pippin which our Boro88 has quoted, so it is retold rather than displayed by the character in action. In fact, his positive attributes become the stuff of the archaic and heroic style which Tolkien moves into as LotR progresses. Shippey argues that the hobbits lead the reader into LotR. Something similar could be said of Boromir, except that by example he leads them away from the Ring towards right action. Thus he becomes incorporated into the heroic in the same way that ancient stories reflected earlier stories incompletely.

So Boromir’s good aspects belong to a particular place in Tolkien’s work. And here my argument is very dependent upon Shippey’s discussion of Tolkien’s clash of styles, the ‘higher criticism’, and in particular of the word ‘lays’ (as in Macaulay’s The Lays of Ancient Rome) in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century (although Shippey isn’t responsible for my use of it to discuss Boromir).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippey, AotC, 235 ff
It became widely believed that behind the extensive epics of Homer, and Virgil, and the Histories of Livy, and Beowulf, and even the accounts of the Old Testament, there must have been early pre-literate traditions which were used by the later writers—traditions probably expressed in short poems composed at or near the time of the events the commemorated. . . . people learned to read histories and historical poems with a kind of double vision, to see both the event being described and the context in which it was described. . . . [Tolkien] wished above all to create the sense of age, of antiquity with yet greater antiquity behind it.
Boromir’s positive traits do not belong in the modern novelistic passages but in those which echo the old epics, the language of antiquity. Boromir the character moves into the realm of legend or of the timelessness of myth. This is most clearly seen in the passages from the Appendices which discuss the love Boromir has for Faramir in a heroic style, as if the Appendices provided strata of stories to disentangle. It is almost as if the Appendices are texts other than that of LotR, part of the lore and annals which are incomplete. So in LotR there is the Event and there is the Record, and reading LotR involves developing a double vision.

To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bêthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2010, 04:33 PM   #31
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

So what are they 'seeing' if it's not being sent? Just the truth, plain and simple. The Ring had been found and was headed one way or another to Rivendell as were a bunch of other people; so it was "accident" (that is, fate) that it was going to happen, but fate didn't send the dream. But fate did write the fact of this gathering into the fabric of reality and for those with the ability to read that fabric it was there waiting for them to be dreamed.

As to why Boromir went instead of Faramir, it's because he was an arrogant man who felt that nobody but him was worthy of the task. Bb is (once again) right: he's a "good man" by the heroic code he lives by and which others value; which is not to say that he's a "bad man" by other estimations, just flawed.
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2010, 05:38 PM   #32
Kitanna
Child of the West
 
Kitanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn
Posts: 2,341
Kitanna is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Kitanna is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle View Post
Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.
I'd always assumed it was fate that sent the dream, but never did I think of it in terms of a Numenorean birthright, but it would make sense. That would certainly explain why Faramir received the dream more often than Boromir. It was stated he showed more of the ancient line than his brother (or at least I believe this was stated).

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.
__________________
"Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain
Kitanna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2010, 09:01 PM   #33
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,587
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitanna View Post
No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.
I've always thought Frodo's dream of the Havens and seeing Valinor to have been somehow caused by Bombadil or Goldberry, since it was in their house that Frodo had that dream.

As for Boromir and Faramir's dream being "self-generated", I have to wonder why Men of Gondor would have as part of their dreams "Halflings", which were hardly a prominent element in the Gondorian pysche.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2010, 09:07 PM   #34
Morwen
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Morwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 275
Morwen has just left Hobbiton.
There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.
__________________
He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said

Last edited by Morwen; 10-19-2010 at 09:16 PM.
Morwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 02:34 AM   #35
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,164
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry View Post
I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.



Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.
(...)
To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.
I, in the name of all, would skip any discussion about "canon". Somebody could then come with early HoME drafts of Boromir or whatnot. Although I see what you mean. But for me, Boromir = all parts we know about Boromir's character put together, and that is from every source. And I am not looking at Boromir from the "outside" perspective - like what kind of character Tolkien wrote him to be - but from the "inside" perspective, as a really-existing person, so to say. And from that pov, see what I said in my short reply-post above. Boromir had these sort of prideful, arrogant etc. parts of his character, and then there was his love to this brother and the better parts of his character. I have always seen it the way that Boromir was raised in Gondor by his father who was rather blind in many matters himself, but he even lacked his father's keen foresight (example: I would imagine Denethor would not underestimate Aragorn just because he had worn clothes, he will probably, in contrary to Boromir, notice that there is more to him than on first sight, yet still, just like Boromir, he would initially have sort of contempt about him). Boromir was raised in his world of Gondor, where most men seem to have this idea of "we are the center of the world and we are the only ones saving it!". He just never had encountered anything else, and so at the Council he first acts like this, and eventually, only slowly by his stay with the Fellowship, I think he begins to see more and becomes sort of more perceptive. That's just in response to saying how Boromir is totally full of himself at the Council and gets sometimes slightly better during the journey - I guess it makes sense, if you are with the people who behave humble or seem unimportant to you and at the same time you see their qualities, you sort of learn to be humble yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle View Post
Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.
I disagree about the dream acting on "self-basis". If it was just a dream vision, like Faramir walking in the field, suddenly seeing a Hobbit, a sword, a valley with Elves in it, a Ring, and so on; simply a set of cryptic visual clues, then whatever. But there is the voice, and the voice speaks to Faramir. You have a dialogue, effectively (or not a dialogue, since Faramir himself does not reply, but you have two subjects there, the "message-sender" and the receiver).

And that is just to add to what Morwen said, which I think is really good point also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 07:34 AM   #36
Ibrîniðilpathânezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrîniðilpathânezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 743
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
There are, to me, certain aspects of that dream which point to its source in the Higher Powers. Specifically, the foreknowledge that:

The Ring would be in Rivendell.

Counsels would be taken (possibly indicating a council would be held).

The Ring would be shown.

A halfling would step forth in significant way.

Gandalf never demonstrated any such degree of prophecy. Moreover, if he had known, I don't think he would have used — nor would he have been allowed to use — his abilities in such a way. This smacks much more of the Valar, and their behind the scenes activities, and Pronouncements of Doom, IMHO. They are much more the master chess players than anyone in Middle-earth, and the convenient timing of the dream, as well as the fact that it came to both brothers, thus helping ensure that one of them would go to Rivendell, seems to me a thing that they would do. Though I rather suspect they might've preferred Faramir as their messenger.
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 09:18 AM   #37
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,015
Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness
Quote:
"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan
Quote:
...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whom Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy numbskull.
I feel like addressing this "Boromir as bossy" topic in light of these two quotes, simply because I feel like they are two very different sorts of witness, and need to be distinguished on that basis. In and of itself, I don't think that Éomer's testimony disproves "bossiness" on Boromir's part at all. Indeed, I think it would prove it more than it would disprove it. Éomer admits, himself, that Boromir came little to the Mark, so most of what he is saying is hearsay (though, I admit, Éomer would be in more of a position than most to have met Boromir if he were to come to Rohan)--and it is a reputation specifically based on his actions at war--on the eastern marches.

"Bossiness" in a peer-like situation (such as Rivendell and the Fellowship can be considered--even though they aren't really peers in a proper sense, the only chain of command is "Gandalf and Elrond have commissioned us") or in personal relationships would translate well to "capable commander"--after all, you want a leader of men to be able to lead them. When Éomer says that Boromir was expected to become a great captain of his people, we should note that he says captain, a martial term. He is not, as Denethor might be, expected to become a great "steward" or "leader" or "statesman." This narrower expectation of "captain" reflects the fact that Boromir's reputation for greatness is limited solely to the battlefield--in other words, to one place where bossiness can most easily masquerade as something noble.

All of that being said, however, Éomer's testimony does not prove that Boromir was, in fact, bossy--merely, that it does not necessarily contradict any account of Boromir as bossy. As the son of the Steward and Captain-General of Gondor, Boromir could easily be camouflaged, since he would lack any real social peers and would be expected to display "bossy" traits.

The testimony of Pippin is, in my opinion, of greater weight, since it is a first-hand account, rather than hearsay. Furthermore, it is the account of someone who has no prior history with the military needs and conditions that would see military prowess as supremely praiseworthy.

I think it is also hugely important to note that, although Pippin "liked him from the first," we don't find this out until Pippin is in Gondor. We never see the scene in Rivendell where Pippin gets to see Boromir's "lordly and kindly" manners in actions. Insofar as The Lord of the Rings is the account by Frodo, it will presumably share his biases. Whether Frodo disliked Boromir from the Council of Elrond on, and then simply avoided him such that he had nothing to put in his account thereafter save the few occasions where Boromir impacted on the action of the whole Fellowship, or whether Frodo's final encounter with Boromir coloured his whole retelling of all that came before... who knows? I incline to the former option, out of a preference for Frodo's general objectivity as a recounter of events, and because Boromir was probably a bit of a fish out of water, being accustomed to being at the top of the social food chain, and finding himself a lowly mortal among immortals and less lowly mortals, at the Council.

What's more, it's easier to see how Pippin, as the young cousin with three older sisters, always tagging along after Merry and Frodo, would respond well to "lordliness" on Boromir's part, and see well-intentioned (if over-bearing) kindliness behind it. Pippin also does not attend the Council, so he would not have the baggage of those tensions to bias him against the one person on the council who voices the outsider's obvious first opinion.

In any case, I think it is significant that we only get this opinion of Pippin's AFTER the Fellowship has broken, once the narrator has to follow the minds and thoughts of the other Hobbits--and non-Hobbits. It highlights the fact that, although the narrator is third-person and not obviously connected with Frodo, the narrator is chiefly following Frodo's story, and thus Frodo's perspective may dominate. It is only when Frodo's perspective cannot be followed, that we see that Frodo's perspective may not have been the only one regarding Boromir.

What's more, now that I think about it, I think we can also see a different perspective already in Chapter I of The Two Towers, when Boromir is laid to rest. I've heard people comment before, if I remember correctly, that as Boromir's heroic end seems tacked on, or out of character, or something. It is possible, I think, that this seeming "out of characterness" can relate to perspective. With Frodo gone and the other Hobbits captured, the perspective is now, if anyone's, Aragorn's (though it may be Legolas and Gimli who are most likely to relay it to Frodo later), and I think he would have been far easier on Boromir than Frodo. Aragorn, as another Man, better understands the temptations the Ring posed for Boromir (though he is better able to resist it than Boromir), and also understands--alone among the Fellowship--what Gondor means to Boromir, and why a military solution would seem particularly compelling.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 01:22 PM   #38
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,070
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Hehe, BB and Form, if you think you're lengthy, I must really be far removed from my "novels" in defense of Boromir's character. I hope you know you've awoken a long slumbering bear.

First then to Bethberry's excellent perspective on the two different writing styles and the difference in Boromir as we see him in the action, and the "reflections" of his character after death. It's even seen in obituaries, where we highlight sort of the "best" qualities of the person's life, and not any mistakes the person may have made in life. We have this concept, out of respect for the dead, we should not mock the dead. And so this I think does well to explain the highlights of Boromir's better qualities, in the various reflections of him after death.

Even in Frodo's talk with Faramir, Faramir can tell (and all the readers too) that Frodo was tempering his true feelings of Boromir. We know they did not part on friendly terms, but I think Frodo is making a conscious effort (either for his own safety or for Faramir's sake) not to completely trash Boromir in front of his own brother.

However, I think what's important to note here is that Faramir's love for Boromir is not a blind love. We see that Faramir has a very accurate and to the point assessment of his brother's character. He doesn't have this blind, oogling, admiration for his great big-brother, and it's not a "he's my brother, I'm obligated to love him" kind of love.

Quote:
'I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it.'~The Window on the West
I mean you could hardly guess that type of assessment coming from Boromir's brother. It's more scathing about Boromir, than anything Frodo said to Faramir.

Quote:
'Ah, than it is as I thought: your trouble was with Boromir alone. He wished this thing brought to Minas Tirith. Alas! It is a crooked fate that seals your lips who saw him last, and holds from me what which I long to know: what was his in his heart and thought in his latest hours. Whether he erred or no, of this I am sure: he died well, acheiving some good thing. His face was more beautiful even in life.'~ibid
Which I think puts a different read on the Appendix quote about the "great love" which existed between the two brothers. Sadly, we only see what Faramir thought of Boromir, and not vice versa. However, I don't think you choose the words "great love" without it being something true and sincere. Faramir's love for his brother is not blind, that in and of itself is I think revealing to Boromir's entire character, since Faramir knows his brother had flaws. But in the end, great love still existed between the two, so...why?

But leaving Boromir "after death" aside for now, let's look at him from the Council to his death.

Pride is, for me, this ying and yang deadly sin. You have ofermod, excessive pride, and arrogance which Boromir definitely displays a lot of...and I think we can agree that Boromir at the Council and his attempt to take the Ring, are Boromir at his worst. Also, it frighteningly represents the type of person Boromir is capable of becoming. Gandalf just let the entire Council informed of Saruman's treachery and Boromir still flat out says "aye, Saruman's a traitor, but isn't the dude kind of right?"

Quote:
'It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory.'~The Breaking of the Fellowship
I bold ruthless, because I don't know about you, but I don't consider that such a "good" quality, or anything at all to brag about. Yet, in Boromir's madness, he seems to think so. These represent the worst of Boromir, because I think it shows given Boromir's character, who he is capable of becoming, which even I admit...isn't such a good looking man.

However, let's not look at who Boromir was capable of becoming, but instead look at who he did become.

I look at the Council Boromir, and see more childish ignorance than the evil deadly Pride. I say that, because just look at his attitudes to Lorien and Moria, and his whining when things don't go his way. I mean honestly, it's like a little kid stomping his feet, and then pouting about not having any friends and no one listening to him.

But seriously now, of course Boromir's going to come to the Council toting on about Gondor and being Gondor-centric. At this time, what, he's 41-42? By the story's standards, that's still pretty young, and all his life he was brought up in Gondor, which is now in war-time (apparently been to Rohan a few times too). Point being though, as the next-in-line Steward, during these troubling times, he has the tremendous expectations to make sure there even is a Gondor there for Aragorn. He's already had war thrust upon him, with Sauron's attack on Osgiliath, and with a father who makes clear he has no qualms with "spending the lives of his sons." (Siege of Gondor), I think it's easy to see the Gondor-centric attitude. Especially at a Council, which stock full of old, immortal, wise uppity know-it-alls. All talk and no action. (I'm being purposefully difficult here, to at least try and implant the Council from Boromir's perspective. As opposed to Frodo's, who of course decided to comment on Boromir's "mocking" laugh towards Bilbo, and from that point on had a grudge. )

However, let's see the growth that takes place in Boromir from the Council to his death. In his deathbed confessions to Aragorn he admits to Aragorn he attempted to take the Ring from Frodo. But it goes even beyond admittance of wrong-doing, it is an acceptance of his own fault in it, and he now paid the price for his own mistake...his life, which is the steepest price to pay.

Quote:
'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo,' he said. 'I am sorry. I have paid.'~The Departure of Boromir
Now by growth, I wonder if you believe if Council-Boromir attempted to take the Ring soon after the Fellowship left, would he have been able to respond in the same way that he does at Parth Galen?

Taking onto Form's point then, how perhaps Boromir's redemption does not fit with the Council-Boromir, nor the arrogance he shows. Aside from narrational bias of Frodo, I think Boromir can also show the good quality of Pride. Now, I realize not all are going to agree with me on this point, but I think it's Boromir's own pride which allows him to realize he is "better" than his attempt to take the Ring. Boromir also represents the good aspect of Pride...pride and confidence in your own self-worth. It is Boromir's pride and honor, which allows him to have one of those "I'm better than this" moments.

I find it ironic that with Boromir there seems to be the love him-hate him polarization, where someone like Grima or Gollum strike up more sympathy. Not saying that anyone has this opinion, but I do see irony in the "pitying" of Grima, but how easily put off one can be by Boromir. That could be do to Boroimr's Pride (something Gollum and Grima have little of), however I think there are a few other explanations too.

Grima and Gollum both fall short of forgiveness. They can't go beyond "pity," thus like Gandalf to Grima, and Frodo to Gollum, we may feel sorry and sympathize with their stories (or we may not). Boromir steps beyond Pity, into forgiveness. So, we either agree with Aragorn and Gandalf that he was "saved" and we are "glad," or we are left wondering...wait a second this seems out of place with the Boromir we met at the Council and after.

Here's the difference though, Boromir's "good" Pride allows him to recognize his own fault in trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He only goes so far as to say a "madness" took him, he never says "It was the Ring that made me." He does quite the opposite by saying "I tried to..." and "I am sorry. I have paid."

Grima and Gollum on the other hand, pass off blame to the outside factors. Gollum kills Deagol because the Ring was "his birthday present" and he felt he deserved it. Grima poisons his king, tries to steal a woman, and actually eats a hobbit, but all says "Saruman made me do it." They have little Pride (good or bad) and in the end never take responsibility for their choices. So, they can never be forgiven, but we look at them through sympathetic-colored specs, because of their "sad" stories. While at times, probably playing down the simple facts that they killed, betrayed, murdered, and never reached forgiveness.

For Boromir, I see Form's point about the narrational bias of Frodo. It could very well be that in Frodo's hero-worship of Gandalf and Aragorn was "put off" by Boromir's arrogance at the Council and therefor the bad first impression (combined with the bad final impression, which was never reconciled), leaves the Fellowship Boromir as a jarring contrast to the "redeemed" Boromir.

However, if you remove Frodo, we see the better parts of Boromir. This is not to say Frodo is wrong (as is evidenced by Faramir's own honest assessment of his brother), but simply that Frodo doesn't know the full picture of Boromir. As is evidenced by Faramir's honest assessment, Pippin's reflection, and Boromir's "good" Pride. So in short, like Legate, I think I like the answer of "both" the best.
__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Fenris Penguin

Last edited by Boromir88; 10-20-2010 at 01:31 PM.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 09:04 AM   #39
Faramir Jones
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Faramir Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 694
Faramir Jones is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Faramir Jones is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Question Order of two sentences indicates taking responsibility

What struck me here is the order in which Boromir uses two sentences. After saying that he tried to take the Ring from Frodo, he said, 'I am sorry. I have paid'. If these two sentences had been switched around, and he had instead said, 'I have paid. I am sorry', readers might have seen him as a person only admitting to wrongdoing because he paid as a result of it.

But Boromir takes full responsibilty for his decision, first making it clear that he was wrong, and paid as a result of the decision.

What do people think?
Faramir Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 06:43 PM   #40
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,173
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
That's a very interesting view. So it's like Boromir put up a wall of pride around himself and didn't allow pity or regret to come in. But when he was dying, he destroyed that wall and allower his true - deep - feelings to show.

About the dream, I agree that the valar sent it, because non of ME characters seem to have any connection with it, and naming Eru is reaching too far up. I also agree that Boromir's pride is what pushed him to travel to Imladris and find out about something he doesn't really care about. Who could do it better than him - much less Faramir, who is obsessed with elves and wizards and that sort of people.
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf

Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-06-2011 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Spelling
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:31 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.